Fist damage does not "suck"...

forum is a higher lvl pvp experience. only here people can write easy recipes so noobs will never really learn what anything stands for. and then... with the vast majority of players with the same very builds, weapons and skills it gets much easier to spot their weaknesses and exploit them.

Wait plox. In 1~2 months i'll show u that fists don't suck in pvp ^^.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

With that information I'll assume that you have no personal experience with a BM 90+ in PvP against other classes of the same level range and testing with different weapons. If you do, please correct me.

i've never been level 90 as a bm. however, i was aiming for it, for all the speed gears.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

As I said before, the real PvP doesn't starts until level 90. Perhaps you know that most caster classes (at least in Lost City) start having around 5k HP once they hit level 90+, due to refinement and the good HP/VIT bonuses HH90 Green set provides. On top of that, a lot of them start using pdef or a mix of HP/Pdef shards, and with buffs, their physical defense resistance goes pretty high. And I won't even metion the kind of damage they start to have due to the high refinement on the weapon.

i'm well aware of this. i have over 5k now, when buffed. and i've, first hand as a heavy armoured toon, been hit by a +12 rank 8 mage.

it doesn't tickle.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Since you're in a PvE server, I don't know if you're active in open PvP, but I'll assume that you do and you know that most PvP takes place in the air.

air is an advantage to any and all ranged classes. using it against them, moving away whilst on the ground, and drawing them back to the ground, is a physical classes advantage. if they don't follow, well simply walk away. their loss.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

I won't argue that Fists can deal a pretty good amount of damage over time, and eventually outdamages any other weapon using interval between hit reducing equipment or a constant use of Spark Eruption, specially if it is Hell Spark. Reason why they are used to damage bosses at high levels.

this is something that fascinates me. with hell fury, a fist user with hh99 heavy/light/cv edge can use hell fury in 13 seconds.

because of this, i've seen fist users tank bosses in hh, simply because they can hit so fast in such a short amount of time that they can actually heal themselves efficiently.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

That is their best quality and at the same time the worst, reason why they are not really good for PvP.

for this reason, actually, is actually why i chose fist to be especially useful in pvp. their speed after the right gears are placed on them is so impressive that they don't need to hit for a long time. they're hitting as such an extreme speed that running becomes impossible. 6 second stun from roar.. they'll probably die in that time.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

In order to deal that high amount of time, they require to have the best conditions, meaning that the opponent won't be moving and the Fist user is status-free to have all the time in the world to deal enough damage until the opponent dies.

this is true. they have to set up the opponent to be in the right place at the right time to be able to lock them into a death trap.

i never said it was easy to be successful.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

But PvP is not like that, all the ranged classes will be kiting you, meaning your opponent will keep moving away from you and the DPS of the Fists will get seriously reduced due to the amount of time it takes to get to the opponent and the animation time it takes to start using normal attacks again.

this is also against the ranged user. neither will kill eachother. eventually, the ranged class will try to either tank the damage or just fly away. either way, the warrior won the battle. either they were gutsy and died or fled. warrior moves on, ranged class tries to snipe him for the rest of his life.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Now, the damage of Fists is most of the time constant, it always has a range of time and damage dealt, which doesn't happens with other weapons like Axe.

edge > fist, if u didn't know. the only time fist become better is hh100. fist have basically no spike, always the same amount of damage.

not good for pvp.

however, edge has a decent spike. much like your axes. it can hit low, but not much lower than fist. it can hit high, and known to spike over swords.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

For example, we can say that a Fist user will deal somewhere between 4k and 8k in 10 seconds, depending on the critical hits. But the problem is that it is required 10 or more seconds to deal that amount of damage.

at level 90, or more specifically, at 95, a fist user will hit 1.1-1.4k per hit with +9 cv edge and a maxed fist mastery on an average player in pvp(assuming they don't have +12 pdef jewelery).

that being said, in 10 seconds they'll deal roughly 22,000-28,000 damage(at this level, i assume their speed is 1.9-2.1 hits per second). hitting twice a second, before fury or skill, is unbelievable. especially, considering they hit what u probably hit with your axes as it is.

with the 198 dex u need for the edge, you'll have a fairly nice base crit(10%? i think). added with what they could have, which is probably crit rings, arrow. since these types of warriors depend on crits as well as their speed, upping it is also very important. so with basic 88 molder rings and an arrow, 15% crit rate.

that means, of the 20 times u hit in that 10 seconds, u crit 3 times(presumably, based on math. give or take a few). assuming u crit 3 times on the lowest spike, you'll have jumped to 25,300-32,200.

quite impressive for such low damage weapons, if i do say so myself.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

So considering your opponent has 5k HP and it tanks your damage for exactly 10 seconds and you're status-free, you will be able to kill it once the charm ticks.

after roar u have exactly 4.2 seconds before the opponent wakes up at max level. in 4.2 seconds a fist user will hit 4 times. that's 5500+ damage(ie, charm tick and their hp is lowered).

aoeline blade, another stun for more damage, 1.2 seconds. 2 more hits. 2,200 damage. they're either dead or critical life, and you'll probably kill them before they react fast enough to walk away with their life.

impractical, but very possible.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Unfortunately, PvP is not like that, and once the charm of a ranged class ticks, they will start flying up, drop from their flying mount and go down, sleep/stun/seal/freeze you, use triple spark or simply use a potion. Any of this will be able to stop your DPS and give the kiter enough time so the charm can tick again.

that is why u stun u silly boy. i've known ranged classes to run on instinct or wait until their hiero has ticked. u either stun as u get to them or stun as u see them reaching their hiero mark. from my experience, most run on instinct(assuming they don't suck), so stunning with something like aoelin blade or roar is existential for classes like mages.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

And if you try to use Spark Eruption, they will just do the same, without letting you to stun them until the effect of Spark Eruption goes away.

i will not argue this, it's very true.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

So it takes you 10 seconds of perfect conditions to kill the kiter, while an Axe user is not limited that amount of time, because the Berserker ticks or the Critical hits (or even a combination of both) will be able to one~two shot the caster, sometimes even without making the charm tick.

i've found that most kiting classes, especially mages, have rock solid robes lol. a guildy of mine in my en has almost 14k pdef fully buffed. not to mention his 6.6k~ hp.

1-2 shotting anything after a class is properly geared is near impossible unless you're that mage with a +12 rank 8 sword.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

The only way you will be able to kill another BM at level 90+ 1vs1 is using triple spark, and any smart BM will just kite until the effect goes away.

this i disagree with. yes, fury makes it a helluva lot easier, but if you're using the cv edge, why would u need to fury? they come with a -10% hp debuff. knowing most warriors at level 100 have what? 9k base hp? that's almost 1k lost. ultimate > speed skill > they'll die in time.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

And the only way you will be able to kill a Barbarian is either, using Triple Spark or your ultimate with 2+ attacks per second. Even then, if they are smart they can just kite, or stun you, because now your evasion is useless since their stun attack has a 100% chance to hit and 50% chance to stun.

nobody, not even fist, is going to solo a barb at that level. i've seen barbs with 20k+ hp in human form. u would have to do some crazy ****, like use triple fury, fury pot, switch to axes and use dragon. stun and switch back to fist. hit him 3x a second at 2k-3k+ per hit.

that being the perfect situation.

will likely never work.

sounds good on paper though, don't it?

if what u say is true about the stuns, then an axe warrior is entirely useless pvp wise. the only way an axe warrior does damage is holding their opponent in place with well timed stuns and spamming multiple skills in the meantime.

if stuns are useless, u would be more like my build. i have what u would call a "dex axe build". i have 215 str and 145 dex. i can wield both hh70 axes and my 68 edge. i could wield level 70 edge molder, but it's not to my preference of usefulness.

that being said, i use the axes for the ultimate and the nice aoe grinding. though the aoe grind is smaller, because of 5 base vit, it's still considerably faster than 1:1 with the edge(even though i kill quite fast with them).

that's the best warrior imo. leave vit for tanks and pure builds(axe tank build is pro for pve). if i need hp, i'll refine more when it's worth upgrading the armour.

http://pwcalc.ru/my/?char=c88d733444a83121
(i'm poor on all of my chars, pretty much).

think it's always better to have numbers to talk about.

lvl100 SAGE BM with mixed golden TT99 LA and HA +7 with 3 flawless garnets/sapphires each piece of armor, TT100 fists +9 with perfect garnets, golden TT99 ornaments +7, golden TT90 rings +7, TT cape +7, all buffs.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8d152fbeffd9315f

that's the best fist endgame build i could think of. equips are not cheap but that's expected.

warriors use weapons for the skills they have. at 99 fists become the best thing a warrior can use for dps. you can't argue it. fist aren't worth it before 99 as most people won't have the refines to have str for axes and dex for fists. also you are limited by -attack intervals before hh99 gear. spear for range, axe for stun lock, fists for dps between stuns. older, matured versions of the game can easily reinforce my statements.

king, you're on crack.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=7446add763d05645

is more realistic.

Of everyone who is pro-fist, I don't think there has ever been one who said that end-game was cheap. It is mentioned as cheap during leveling up, you can get refined/gemmed legendaries for very cheap since you will only use them 10 lvls usually. All our money is saved up for end game armor and weaponry.

It's why I stick with already upgraded fists on sale in AH. -Interval this early would be nice, but usually just too expensive and too rare to actually find in AH right now for a weapon I will out-level very quickly. Already in Gamma range, so no point wasting the coins.

Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »

if what u say is true about the stuns, then an axe warrior is entirely useless pvp wise. the only way an axe warrior does damage is holding their opponent in place with well timed stuns and spamming multiple skills in the meantime.

if stuns are useless, u would be more like my build. i have what u would call a "dex axe build". i have 215 str and 145 dex. i can wield both hh70 axes and my 68 edge. i could wield level 70 edge molder, but it's not to my preference of usefulness.

that being said, i use the axes for the ultimate and the nice aoe grinding. though the aoe grind is smaller, because of 5 base vit, it's still considerably faster than 1:1 with the edge(even though i kill quite fast with them).

that's the best warrior imo. leave vit for tanks and pure builds(axe tank build is pro for pve). if i need hp, i'll refine more when it's worth upgrading the armour.

http://pwcalc.ru/my/?char=c88d733444a83121
(i'm poor on all of my chars, pretty much).

I pretty much do what you say, I just add sword too on my built.

Saying that, I only do PVE.
My final built numbers will be (if I continue lol):

STR 294, Dex 215, vit 3 and mag 3.

This should allow me to use any weapon as any point missing I might get it from gear.

The reason of 215 dex is because I want to use my current TT60 unicorn bow, which requires exactly 215 dex. I currently have like 205 but I'm getting the rest from gear.

thats not how the system works. it works like. a fist user will attack 1.43 times in 1 sec. so he did actually almost have it right. of course he didn't add factors such as missing or stuns.

Interval is 1/attack rate of weaponry. Fists is a lil under .7 per second.

And having fun using swords, axes, and fists in rebirth. In 2 hours, made 60% lvl. We were without a barb, so no health buff, and I am at the low end being 71 in a 70-85 quest. Almost beat it, but an unlucky aggro draw wiped us. Nothing beats swapping between weapons for best skill use and laying waste to 25+ mobs at a time

Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »

you are confused.

fists 1.43 attacks per second
and sword 1.11 attacks per second

attack rate per second=(low+high)/2*attack rate

fists TT80 Soul messanger
(451+498)/2*1.43=678.53

sword TT80 forceblade
(445+827)/2*1.11=705.96

of course this ignores the properties of the weapons, as some weapons add more STR or dex or more accuracy, ect.

2 rings, around 80 phys attack each.

160 * 1.43 + 678.53 = 907.33

160 * 1.11 + 705.96 = 883.56

And fists have more effect from -interval, gaining more of an advantage for the - interval even with both getting the same gear.

EDIT: And that is not even touching on attack charms and refinement, which are both affected by attack speed as well.

Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hey I;m a believer since I mostly use fists. I was just trying to clarify his terms.

he was understanding 1.43 secs per hit rather than 1.43 hit per second.

Saying that it all depends on which weapons you are comparing:

the previous was on TT80, I will compare two TT70 now:
Warriorblade
(718+387)/2*1.11=613.28

Skywarrior Fists
(392+433)/2*1.43=589.875

i follow only fist+sword paths at the moment. in practise 1 kills nearly as fast as the other. the point is that fists get more chi over time(ok not much more compared to 1.11 swords but the difference can be noticed easily) so more chi=more ultimates=more damage.