Fist damage does not "suck"...

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary

Fist damage does not suck. It's different. What it comes down too, always, is DPS and equipment, and of course skill. Let's take a look at the 60th level TT weapons on two base builds. I'm giving the Blade user 140 Str and 100 Dex as that is his builds strong points. I'm giving the Fist user 100 Str and 140 Dex for the same reason.

☆DrumForce Glove

Iron Fist
Close Range
Grade 8
Attack Range 2.5
Physical attack 343-379

Str required 96
Agi required 120

Level Required: 60

Increase in Physical Attack +56

Attack Speed 1.43

Str 100
Agi 140

PhAtk 765-825
Crit 8%


☆FleeBone Blade

Blade
Close Range
Grade 8
Attack Range 3
Physical attack 339-629

Str required 123
Agi required 93

Level Required: 60

Increase in Physical Attack +56

Attack Speed 1.11

Str 140
Agi 100

PhAtk 880-1440
Crit 6%

Looks kinda bad for the Fist user if damage were the only thing to consider. However it's not. It's DPS. Consider...

DPS = Damage Per Second

Give each of these toons 100 seconds to swing with no skills. Assume each hits every time.

In 100 seconds the Fist user will hit 143 times ( 100 X 1.43 )
In 100 seconds the Blade user will hit 111 times ( 100 X 1.11 )

Your weapon attack speed must be taken into account. Now lets do a little basic math.

Using the low end damage of both weapons...

Fist user: 143 X 765 = 109395 / 100 seconds = 1,093.95 DPS
Blade user: 111 X 880 = 97680 / 100 seconds = 976.80 DPS

Now the high end...

Fist user: 143 X 825 = 117975 / 100 seconds = 1,179.75 DPS
Blade user: 111 X 1140 = 159840 / 100 seconds = 1,598.40 DPS

Average the two:

Fist user: 1,094 + 1,180 / 2 = 1137 DPS overall
Blade user: 977 + 1599 / 2 = 1288 DPS overall

So a slight edge to the Blade user...but not much.

Now...two more things to consider before the Blade users start high-fiving each other.

1) The Fist user will have the higher accuracy ( hit more often ) because of his higher Dex.
2) The Fist user will critical more often as well.

None of this take into account skill.

So...I'd say they are pretty even according to the data. If anyone wants to do the work involved in tossing the criticals into the equation or the extra stat points..ect..feel free. The point of this was to show that Fist damage does not "suck".

Tools used in writing this up:

Ecatomb build generator: http://www.ecatomb.net/character.php
Perfect World Item database: http://www.pwdatabase.com/my/items

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary

Too add to this...lets take this scenario to 100th level with some of the best gear and weapons available. For example on the Blademaster:

Weapon:
Unbeatable DualBlade (lvl 100)
Helmet:
Great Wisdom Unstable (lvl 95)
Shirt:
LionRex Heart Heavy Armor (lvl 99)
Pants:
LionRex Heart Tasses (lvl 99)
WristBracer:
LionRex Heart WristBracer (lvl 99)
Footwear:
LionRex Heart Heavy Boot (lvl 99)
Manteau:
Fillip Mount Hefty Hide (lvl 96)
Necklace:
LionRex Heart Necklace (lvl 99)
Waist Adorn:
LionRex Heart Waist Adorn (lvl 99)
Ring 1:
Dark.GrandFrost Badge (lvl 95)
Ring 2:
Dark.GrandFrost Badge (lvl 95)


The Fistmaster ( man that sounds bad ) has similar...I'll leave it up to you to figure out what with LA.

100
Blade user: 2865-4449
3180-4938
4059 DPS
Crit: 21%

100
Fist user: 2592-3083
3706-4408
4057 DPS
Crit: 28%

Note the DPS is even closer...and still the crit is higher for the Fist user.

Lyndura - Lost City

Every STR point you have, plus the physical attack of the equipment, and addons, affect the formula to get the final damage, so you'r e just speculating, the damage difference is higher.

So if you're hitting 600~700's with Fist, you will be hitting 1800~2000 with Sword.

Now, this is just with normal attacks, which in PvP are very reduced, and you can't rely on them, so you have to use skills to bypass the enemy defense. When you use skills, the attack speed doesn't matter, and what does is the damage of the skill, combined with every point of STR and all the physical attack addons of the equipment.

This is where there is an even higher difference between damage of different weapons. But, since Fist skills have a really long cooldown time, and low damage, most Fist users preffer to go with normal hits at PvP, but they are just low damage.

To get an idea, most Fist BM's of my level hit me for 89-120 per normal hit, that's if they have Heavy Armor, which means high STR. And I have just average equipment, since I spent my money on higher level gears, what will happen when I hit 70 and I get all my HH70 armors? Not only the low damage, but they miss against me too, and I have the same critical % than them.

If they use LA, cool, it will take me 2-4 skills to kill them thanks to the low physical defense.

Just so you get an example:

Fist uses normal hits against a mob: 700-900 damage per hit.
Axe uses skills against a mob: 5000-7000 damage per hit.
A Wizard uses skills against a mob: 18000-25000 damage per hit.

Fist deals 5720 damage in 5 seconds.
Axe deals 18000 damage in 5 seconds.
Wizard deals 43000 damage in 5 seconds.

There you have your DPS.

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Just so you get an example:

Fist uses normal hits against a mob: 700-900 damage per hit.
Axe uses skills against a mob: 5000-7000 damage per hit.
A Wizard uses skills against a mob: 18000-25000 damage per hit.

Fist deals 5720 damage in 5 seconds.
Axe deals 18000 damage in 5 seconds.
Wizard deals 43000 damage in 5 seconds.

There you have your DPS.

Why compare a Wiz? They don't miss.

The subject here is comparing BM and FM. Of that nifty damage for the BM how many times does he miss compared too the FM? Skills won't do you any good if they don't connect.

I prefer to assume the Devs tried for balance in some way with every character class and looked at the extremes.

By the who...with your numbers:

BM Axe 5000-7000 per hit. Dual Axes have a 0.83 attack speed. So...

5 X 0.83 = 4.15 attacks in 5 seconds. Round down to 4 hits in 5 seconds IF he hits at all.

In the same amount of time the FM is going to hit 7 times.

It's not so black and white. Also not so much speculation. Take a look at the build calc I included.

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary

By the way...if anyone has a formula for PhAtk -vs- PhDef with evade factored in it might help to settle this a bit.

Dravion - Lost City

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why compare a Wiz? They don't miss.

The subject here is comparing BM and FM. Of that nifty damage for the BM how many times does he miss compared too the FM? Skills won't do you any good if they don't connect.

I prefer to assume the Devs tried for balance in some way with every character class and looked at the extremes.

By the who...with your numbers:

BM Axe 5000-7000 per hit. Dual Axes have a 0.83 attack speed. So...

5 X 0.83 = 4.15 attacks in 5 seconds. Round down to 4 hits in 5 seconds IF he hits at all.

In the same amount of time the FM is going to hit 7 times.

It's not so black and white. Also not so much speculation. Take a look at the build calc I included.

um thats only if axes have minimum dex , an axe bm can add more dex for more hits and at end game all bms can afford to put a ton in dex because vit isnt really needed past 80 also if u are talking pve then u won't be missing mobs that much anyway so the dps for other bms will be higher

Lyndura - Lost City

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why compare a Wiz? They don't miss.

The subject here is comparing BM and FM. Of that nifty damage for the BM how many times does he miss compared too the FM? Skills won't do you any good if they don't connect.

I prefer to assume the Devs tried for balance in some way with every character class and looked at the extremes.

By the who...with your numbers:

BM Axe 5000-7000 per hit. Dual Axes have a 0.83 attack speed. So...

5 X 0.83 = 4.15 attacks in 5 seconds. Round down to 4 hits in 5 seconds IF he hits at all.

In the same amount of time the FM is going to hit 7 times.

It's not so black and white. Also not so much speculation. Take a look at the build calc I included.

I said skills, and skills have the same attack rate, no matter what weapon you have.

Miss??!

Lol @ PvP Axe build
Lol @ +50% Accuracy Rings
Lol @ 200% Accuracy powder
Lol @ 500% Accuracy powder
Lol @ End game (look at Dravion post).

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary

I'm not sure what you two aren't understanding here. Builds vary. I'm looking at the math involved. That, in the final analysis, is all these arguements come down too.

Show me the numbers. I've already demonstrated the flaws with yours.

Skills have the same speed? Good. That just makes this simpler. What speed are skills? 1.0? 1.1?

C'mon folks...think!

In PvP what are the factors? What is the math behind one player hitting the other? If you are saying that the BM Axe wielder has the same chance to hit as the BM Fist wielder when completely twinked out...fine. But show me the math.

On the build calc I took into account equipment. Want to know what I found? DPS is more or less equal. It came down too who hits who and who crits. Simple.

I'd like to think that everyone is going to hit 100th with thier favorite build but it's doubtful.

Lyndura - Lost City

Do you really think your "maths" are accurate?

I already gave you numbers. If you want to know the speed of the skills, look here: http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php

Dodge is useless when Axes add a lot of DEX, using one or two +50% Accuracy rings, or even +200~500% Accuracy Powder.

2500 Accuracy * 5 = 12,500 Accuracy
(2500+50%) = 3750 Accuracy...+200%~500%
(2500+100%) * 2~5?

Beat that.

Anyways, there's no exact formula for damage. But if you want something close, there's a magical damage formula:

([(1+(MAG/100))*(Level+Equipment Magic Attack)]+(MAG+Weapon Magic attack)*(Magic attack % from skill)+(skill add-on damage))*(100%+mastery%)

Figure something out from there.

But the real numbers in game are way different than your maths.

Or if you want something real, fine, get an HP Charm use a Fist BM of my same level, use LA or HA, doesn't matter, and get as much dodge as you can. I'll use Axes and throw in an Accuracy Powder, then we fight...15 seconds, is more than enough to bring you down.

Dravion - Lost City

wow Lyandra is really anti-fist b:laugh lol j/k

MistresShade - Sanctuary

Alrighty Will chill out. That goes for you other guys too. People are entitled to their own opinions. But to add to the fire fists/claws hit twice in that 1.43 secs...and you know our skills don't have that bad of a cd. Besides every hit we do has a chance to cancel out any spell/skill being cast, so you gotta think of that. Not to mention one of our skills increases our att speed, and at lvl 10 of that skill it can be used to constantly give us a 15% increase in att speed, (20% if you go demon)

Lyndura - Lost City

Vacuous Palm - 15 seconds cooldown.
Shadowless Kick - 12 seconds cooldown. (Yeah, cancel it, I'll just do it again.)
Cyclone Heel - 15 seconds cooldown. (12% increase at level 10)
Drake's Breath Bash - 30 seconds cooldown.

And yes, you can get an attack speed rate of 2, which is useless when your opponent:

1.- 1 hit kill you.
2.- 2 hit kills you.
3.- Stuns you.
4.- Fly/run from you.

EDIT: Anyways, I'm tired of arguing how Fist suck.

Most Fist users don't want to admit how their weapon has low performance when compared with the others, and 3 FM's have told me that already...
Some others have dueled with me, and the duel ends in less than 30~45 seconds, when against other BM's it goes for a good 2~5 or more minutes(in a duel, because with Charms it would last longer). And they end up changing weapon and loving it.

I'll leave you guys think that Fist are the same as the other weapons, "they are godly, our attack speed, our dodge, blah blah".

Come to the PvP server, make a Fist BM, level up to high levels, and then you will find your answer.

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary

MistresShade - Sanctuary wrote: »

Alrighty Will chill out. That goes for you other guys too. People are entitled to their own opinions. But to add to the fire fists/claws hit twice in that 1.43 secs...and you know our skills don't have that bad of a cd. Besides every hit we do has a chance to cancel out any spell/skill being cast, so you gotta think of that. Not to mention one of our skills increases our att speed, and at lvl 10 of that skill it can be used to constantly give us a 15% increase in att speed, (20% if you go demon)

lol...I'm not upset Mistres. I'm a fan of math and logic. Not a real big fan of opinions.

Like I've been saying...I doubt the extreme builds have escaped the attention of the Devs/Testers of this game. Some sort of balance has to be built in. Therefore "Fist" damage does not "suck".

Proving that is a little more in depth.

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Vacuous Palm - 15 seconds cooldown.
Shadowless Kick - 12 seconds cooldown. (Yeah, cancel it, I'll just do it again.)
Cyclone Heel - 15 seconds cooldown. (12% increase at level 10)
Drake's Breath Bash - 30 seconds cooldown.

And yes, you can get an attack speed rate of 2, which is useless when your opponent:

1.- 1 hit kill you.
2.- 2 hit kills you.
3.- Stuns you.
4.- Fly/run from you.

EDIT: Anyways, I'm tired of arguing how Fist suck.

Most Fist users don't want to admit how their weapon has low performance when compared with the others, and 3 FM's have told me that already...
Some others have dueled with me, and the duel ends in less than 30~45 seconds, when against other BM's it goes for a good 2~5 or more minutes(in a duel, because with Charms it would last longer). And they end up changing weapon and loving it.

I'll leave you guys think that Fist are the same as the other weapons, "they are godly, our attack speed, our dodge, blah blah".

Come to the PvP server, make a Fist BM, level up to high levels, and then you will find your answer.

If this is true then it's going to be bad news for the Axe build in the future. It will be "balanced" out. This is commonly known as a "Nerf".

I've made no claims to the Fist BM being Godly or kicking anyone's hind end. All I've attempted to prove here is that said "suckage" is opinion.

Knightofone - Lost City

even when i didnt want 2 admit it fists get bad the higher lvl u get i was 47 when i changed from fist to axes just because other weapons were dealing + damage than me annd a lot of ppl wouldnt invite fist to aoe parties and i have 2 say that i love being axes its much easier and fast lvling. dodge is beated easy by apotecary pills or rings with accuracy or builds with high dex and those get + comon at high lvls and with low dmg fist cant rly beat the defense of others

Lyndura - Lost City

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

If this is true then it's going to be bad news for the Axe build in the future. It will be "balanced" out. This is commonly known as a "Nerf".

I've made no claims to the Fist BM being Godly or kicking anyone's hind end. All I've attempted to prove here is that said "suckage" is opinion.

Well, the game itself has been out for many years now, and there hasn't been a "nerf". The reason is that:

Blademaster is 1 class, and that class has the choice to use 1,2 or multiple weapons when fighting against other classes, each weapon do not represents one different class. So if a Fist BM is bad when fighting against other classes, he/she has the option to use another weapon to solve this.

That way it's balanced.

complexx

Fist Indeed sucks.

Instead of using math, How about you get a 8x or 9x Wr and pvp and say its awesome.


Seeing how the game mechanics work > Math.

senovit

Fist BM's are really only decent at higher levels. Imagine an axe warrior trying to hit an archer for a comparison. Fist users can get higher dodge than archers due to them gaining more dodge per AGI than archers do. Of course, dodge doesn't really matter for a long time as in the lower levels, fist damage sucks too much to even worry about dodging.

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary

complexx wrote: »

Fist Indeed sucks.

Instead of using math, How about you get a 8x or 9x Wr and pvp and say its awesome.


Seeing how the game mechanics work > Math.

Complexx...Game Mechanics *is* math. Unless you believe code is written in knee jerk emotionalism.

I'm sure the Axe wielders, Blade wielders, and Fist users are having fun somewhere.

I'm out.

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Well, the game itself has been out for many years now, and there hasn't been a "nerf". The reason is that:

Blademaster is 1 class, and that class has the choice to use 1,2 or multiple weapons when fighting against other classes, each weapon do not represents one different class. So if a Fist BM is bad when fighting against other classes, he/she has the option to use another weapon to solve this.

That way it's balanced.

I would say that each weapon has it's own advantages and that is based largely on the stats for that weapon and it's skills. Otherwise there actually is an imbalance and there is no point to using the weapon.

This is why "suck" is an opinion and not fact.

Lyndura - Lost City

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would say that each weapon has it's own advantages and that is based largely on the stats for that weapon and it's skills. Otherwise there actually is an imbalance and there is no point to using the weapon.

This is why "suck" is an opinion and not fact.

Come in game, and you will see it's a fact.

Also, there's "Multiquote" button for some reason.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Ok, Lyndura and I have been over this for SOOO long. I've played fists all the way up to lvl 52 (I'm going to re-spec to axes) and lets just say I am in no way a bad player but i was fighting a hammer BM with my fists, he was SIX lvls lower then me, and i couldn't deal enough damage to him before he was able to run away. I was hitting him for 90~100s and he was hitting me (granted he hardly hit me, must of not have those rings) for 300~600. Honestly, it's a game, do what you want, play how you want to. I heard that fists ROCK end-game, but for now I'm going axes cause I LOVE high damage.

Also, what is the name of the +50% accuracy rings and how does one obtain them?

Lyndura - Lost City

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ok, Lyndura and I have been over this for SOOO long. I've played fists all the way up to lvl 52 (I'm going to re-spec to axes) and lets just say I am in no way a bad player but i was fighting a hammer BM with my fists, he was SIX lvls lower then me, and i couldn't deal enough damage to him before he was able to run away. I was hitting him for 90~100s and he was hitting me (granted he hardly hit me, must of not have those rings) for 300~600. Honestly, it's a game, do what you want, play how you want to. I heard that fists ROCK end-game, but for now I'm going axes cause I LOVE high damage.

Also, what is the name of the +50% accuracy rings and how does one obtain them?

Level 77 Misty Forest Ring: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/8384

You get it at FB79 (77), or you can trade 115 Chips to get it at One Thousand Streams.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Level 77 Misty Forest Ring: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/8384

You get it at FB79 (77), or you can trade 115 Chips to get it at One Thousand Streams.

This looks like a mighty fine ring, and hard to get, how many people have you seen with it?

Also, how does one acquire these chips?

EDIT: I calculated that it would cost me 505k to max out all my AoE skills and get lvl 1 drake bash and with maxing out drake bash 666k (lol) (by maxing i mean to my current lvl)
This money shouldn't be that hard to acquire.
As for spirit: W/O max Drakes Bash: 456.2k
W/ Drake bash: 579.3k

Should I max out my AoEs first or how should I go along doing this?

Lyndura - Lost City

It's an expensive ring, I have seen at least 8~10 so far (on high level Axe users). But I'm not spying all the high levels, so I guess more people have it.

The Chips are items that you get from different rooms at the Cube, unfortunately you can't trade them, so you have to get them by your own. Once you get them, you can trade them at the Mysterious Merchant NPC for different molds/items: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/19277

Also, there're common rings, any level, that when crafted or dropped from mobs have special stats like +10~30% Accuracy. You can find those for 100~150k or so.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

I edited my top post. Also are the chips in random rooms or random drops? are they mob drops or prizes? And on average how many does one get per one cube run?

Lyndura - Lost City

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

I edited my top post. Also are the chips in random rooms or random drops? are they mob drops or prizes? And on average how many does one get per one cube run?

They are rewards of the next rooms: 15,22,31 and 42.

You have to kill all the mobs in the room in 60 seconds in order to get 5 Chips as a reward.

So you can get 0~5~10~15~20 Chips per run, depending how lucky you're and if you pass the test of every room.

And yes, max your AoE first, then focus on Drake's Bash, but get at least level 1, it's important for your Stun lock. Or you can level Drake's Bash and leave Fan of Flames at lower level if you find Drake's Bash more useful for now.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

on average how many Mirage stones do i need for Cube? and what lvl should I start it?

Lyndura - Lost City

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

on average how many Mirage stones do i need for Cube? and what lvl should I start it?

The average is 20-30, but you can do it with less I guess, if you're lucky, since it's random the number of rooms you will have to do. And at least 200~400k since some rooms ask you money to complete them.

And for the level, you can start at level 40, but some people suggest level 65+, so it's up to you.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

I'll wait till 65+ seeing as the calamity axes and ring mold are 70+

complexx

_WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Complexx...Game Mechanics *is* math. Unless you believe code is written in knee jerk emotionalism.

I'm sure the Axe wielders, Blade wielders, and Fist users are having fun somewhere.

I'm out.

If everything in your posts is correctly done, Which it isn't, Why don't more people admit fist doesn't suck?

Oh that's right. Fist damage and Fist skills are HORRIBLE silly me.


You must really love fists to defend them so bad.