Fist damage does not "suck"...

Airbornsting - Sanctuary

ok will konws me fsit bms do not suck actually to me their one of best of the 4 im sword bm im rather sure a fist or sword bm will be best at end game cause pole and axe dont have a lv 100 wep skill between them all a sword or fist dd is one of the better ones to go with ive scred up my char by gave him 55 vit at lv 30 but now ive fixed that i now have 155 str and 95 dex so wills estimates are close. yes im set up the way i waht to be fist bms also gain chi the fastest. tell u the truth i think an axe bm sucks too slow and if ur were gunna go with axes u hould of been a barb! more on this later

LongThan - Sanctuary

lol fist bm suck, today i fought with a fist bm lvl 60 and while im lvl 49 axe bm, oh god when the fist bm atk me i saw the dmg so suck i let him atk me for awhile. And i start to atk him i still do way more dmg, but i didnt win however i almost kill him considering our lvl is 11 apart.

xsundropx

LongThan - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol fist bm suck, today i fought with a fist bm lvl 60 and while im lvl 49 axe bm, oh god when the fist bm atk me i saw the dmg so suck i let him atk me for awhile. And i start to atk him i still do way more dmg, but i didnt win however i almost kill him considering our lvl is 11 apart.

And yet you don't really see the potential in fist BMs. They aren't meant to be against HEAVY armor wearers. They're meant to fight against EVERYTHING ELSE, aka NOT other BMs or Barbs. Fist BMs wear Light armor to have a higher Magic Defense and high evasion.

Sure the damage against you was ****, but it was fast **** (Pictures marmoset monkeys flinging poo at high speeds). Ok back on topic. The fist BMs are meant to put out fast, low damage, not slow, high damage.

These two reasons are only prove that fist BMs suck versus other BMs. Having Light armor vs Heavy armor will almost always have the Heavy wearer the winner, because the Light armor wearer's damage is nerfed as opposed to the Heavy's damage being more. Now take that fist damage isn't the highest, and stack that against a weapon that has the highest maximum damage. These two togather show that Fist BMs will lose to Axe BMs alot of the time. Alos, the fact that you never did consder how a Fist BM would perform against any other classes and claim that build to be **** is utter arrogance.

dekciw

xsundropx wrote: »

Yeah, I still hear people say: "Fist BM's suck, they'll never beat other classes." Well, take some of these ideas into thought. Fist BM's usually use Light armor, meaning they have a higher MDef. This leaves you with 4/6 classes you can potentially beat because you have a higher MDef then most BM/Barb, and enough skills to distrupt them from casting..

Not really, Heavy armor with magic sutra > light armor pdef. + you'll still have more pdef than them b:victory. A light armor Warrior can't afford using a decently level magical sutra because it would gimp their pdef to the point that they would be as squishy as a robe user b:shocked. Stuns are a way more effective way to stop them from casting than shadowless kick btw b:laugh

MistresShade - Sanctuary

*rolls eyes* We're back on this again. Well since the last time I posted in this thread I have learned a few things (btw people really shouldn't necro threads...). 1) Axes are better in PvP period. This is because of spike damage, and the damage reduction in PvP, making the damage of axes superior and the damage of fists not really worth mentioning in PvP. 2) Fists are superior 1v1 in PvE period. This is because yes we do have crazy fast attack speed, and we can cancel enemy's magic attacks (even some boss's magic attacks), not to mention our attack speed buff. Now I know some will say that because we don't have as many AoEs we suck, that is wrong. AoEs are only good if you fight multiple mobs, otherwhise generally they are a waste of mp (excepting of course axe users who have to use all their skills because their attack speed sucks). As for armor, if you are a BM of any type in light armor, you are fairly wrong. To fix heavy armor to be better against magic, you use HP or mag def shards, simple as that.

Now really in teh late game, post 70, if you don't use two trees its not really worth it, especially if your primary tree is fist. At 70 I gave up being a BM for awhile, and when I came back to it I restated to axe because I began to believe everyone else that fists sucked. What I was shocked to find out was axes were only better at AoE (and PvP), and that most of the negative propaganda against fists was wrong. So I restated once again, and now I use both axe and fist (it is possible, you just have to have little or no vit), and I love it. I still primarily use fists, but if I am doing something like an FB I will switch to to axes if there are multiple mobs, and I use a macro to run through my AoEs until there is only one mob left, then switch back to my fists. If I am tanking a boss I generally use fists because over time the damage is better if you use your skills properly, not to mention fists are far cheaper mp whise (though the repairs on fists can get rather large as tehy wear down faster than axes you hit more with fists than axes)

Really it just depends on what you are doing. If you are PvPing, axes are better, if you are PvEing, then in most cases fists are better and cheaper. Not to mention of course that some of the fists/claws have some damn nice abilities (dark flash the legendary lvl 70 claws can heal 5% of your hp and remove all debuffs)


Also if you are a fist user and using Aeolian blade for anything other than the stun you are a moron because the main damage of Aeolian blade comes from the weapon and fists don't add much damage.

pieexplosion

First off, let me point out that I'm most definitely a newbie. Now, let me point out my observations.

*
1. Fists have better Normal Attack based Chi generation through their faster attack speed. The main question here is, how does it affect skill usage and under what conditions could this yield greater damage?
2. Fists have the smallest on-weapon damage. But, do all of the melee weapons normalize to 1.0 attack speed or something when calculating skill damage? Is there non-percentage based damage absorbsion?
3. Fist build would have a high critical rate due to having the required dex to wield them. Do critical hits generate more Chi? How high of a critical rate is obtainable? If the critical rate is a flat 100% damage bonus, and you had 20% critical rate, it's pretty much a 20% increase in overall damage. The difference is, it isn't controllable burst and it seems in PvP, controlled burst is everything.
4. Fists have a really cruddy attack range. This really seems to suck for fists in this game. Mostly because moving makes you stop attacking, interupts your skills, makes you not able to use skills for a moment until the server realizes you stopped moving, etc. This is where I see fist weapons lose a lot of potential in both PvP and PvE. Everyone and everything can run just a tiny bit and throw you into the "moving-around-pit-of-****" mode. I guess it sort of forces you into using Vacuous Palm and Ocean's Edge. How do all BMs deal with this anyway?
5. Interrupts are stupid. Seriously. Who thought up a mechanic that can be countered by mashing your skill buttons?
6. Light armor is stupid as a BM. You gain more out of wearing heavy armor. You can stun/interrupt magic attacks. Even so, you have skills that change your extremity. Having to keep up Alter Marrow every fight to make up for your mediocre defenses is stupid.

If I dual tree, I plan on going Fist + Polearms since I'm also keeping heavy armor. Heavy armor and Polearms have about the same strength requirements and I'm way over the dex requirement. Unfortunately, I don't know if I'll have enough SP to do Polearm skills.

But, for now, just leveling and careful observation. I'll continue putting out helpful observations as I level.

LongThan - Sanctuary

xsundropx wrote: »

And yet you don't really see the potential in fist BMs. They aren't meant to be against HEAVY armor wearers. They're meant to fight against EVERYTHING ELSE, aka NOT other BMs or Barbs. Fist BMs wear Light armor to have a higher Magic Defense and high evasion.

Sure the damage against you was ****, but it was fast **** (Pictures marmoset monkeys flinging poo at high speeds). Ok back on topic. The fist BMs are meant to put out fast, low damage, not slow, high damage.

These two reasons are only prove that fist BMs suck versus other BMs. Having Light armor vs Heavy armor will almost always have the Heavy wearer the winner, because the Light armor wearer's damage is nerfed as opposed to the Heavy's damage being more. Now take that fist damage isn't the highest, and stack that against a weapon that has the highest maximum damage. These two togather show that Fist BMs will lose to Axe BMs alot of the time. Alos, the fact that you never did consder how a Fist BM would perform against any other classes and claim that build to be **** is utter arrogance.

well i just been on topic since the OP compare fist bm with a dual blade heavy armor bm, so dont blame me for what i say b:thanks andyes when i fought with the fist bm the atk is like super crazy fast

MistresShade - Sanctuary

Alright Mr SpoldyPie (heh couldn't resist) here are what answers I can give.

1) At 29 you get your first spark which is any BM's, especially fist BM's best friend. Level 1 spark eruption increases damage to 150%, so if you were doing 1k you would do 1.5k per attack, combine that with our speed and your are hitting hard and fast, and the best thing about that is since we attack so fast we regain teh chi fast and can spark farily often (but Diamond Sutra also takes a spark to cast and is our friend as well so you have to find the balance there) At 49 we get our skill Cyclone Heel, which in addition to being an AoE, also speeds up our normal attack speed some. Then at 59 we get our second spark, and level 2 spark eruption, which when used effectively doubles our damage. If you combine that with cyclone heel, you got yourself about 10 secs of crazy damage, and in 30 secs or less you can do it again, no other weapon can say they can do that. As a fist BM you generally don't use many skill, just Shadowless Kick and Cyclone Heel really.


2) What you need to understand is that some skills calculate weapon damage into the damage of the skills, thus axe being better for those skills, but alot of those skills have larger casting times and/or cooldown times, so despite otehr weapons having great spike damage on those skills, fists can catch up and pass that damage on a single target with ease using only cyclone heel to boost attack speed.

3) I do not believe crits give more chi, but then again I never worried about it. The highest crit rate I believe about 26%, but since most fist BMs go heavy armor, then by 70 or so you'll probably have 10-12% crit.

4) Well I don't PvP much, but really the only time mobs run away is generally when flying mobs are about to die alot of them try flying away, so use either Drake's Ray or carry a bow with you to finish off the enemies that try to get away.

5) Shadowless kick is a good PvE move, terrible for PvP. SK can cancel any spell a mob is casting, even most boss spells, thus saving you ALOT of pain.

6) I agree LA is pointless for BMs under any circumstances.

I seriously suggest not working two trees until 70+ when you MIGHT have the extra spirit.

Also as a side note, fists suck at PvP, plain and simple, they have to go through defense AND the PvP damage reduction, thus making them all but worthless.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Few extra things that haven't been mentioned:

1) Fist attack speed means all straight phys attk boost add more dmg for fist than any other weapon. A + phys attack gem or two means that in DPS fist can catch up to or even exceed the DPS of other weapons. If the refinement boost is equal amongst all the different weapon types and stays contingent on just the level of the eq, then until +8 or higher weapons come out saying any weapon is better is a bit premature due to speed differences. After all, +150 phys attack from gems and refinement when fists attack 6 times to a swords 4 means 300 extra dmg for fists. That is modified by strength, spark boost, and any other extra effects.

2) Because of faster chi gain fist BMs can stay in their sparked state almost indefinitely. This means higher dmg. While other weapons can spark, they have less attack during that time, and will be out of spark for half or more of the time. Again, this adds to the extra dmg fist users will deal.

3) Someone mentioned strength not being used in the formula for dmg, but then said axe users can have the same dex as fist users. Well if they do, then the fist users have the same str. And since strength should modify dps, then close DPS before strength will be close DPS after. Immmaterial. Only legitimate thing was that other classes won't be auto-attacking while fist users pretty much have to.

4) Fist users don't have to be light armor. This removes another batch of comparisons that don't accomplish much. And if both wear heavy armor, then it comes back to DPS when it is fist against melee. Though to compare, the melee the fist is fighting needs to be calculated with skill use and not auto-attack.

This isn't to say either is better than the other, which I'm sure is heard often, but these were just some glaring omissions that stood out while reading through. Anyone with knowledge on the refinement number boost of two different weapon types with the same item lvl who could comment would be appreciated in adding more facts to the debate. Because I myself am interested in finding out which fares better when all the loose ends are taken care of.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot to add this one point.

5) Unless the fist BM has a significantly higher critical hit or close dmg output in a single hit, critical hits will add more dmg for other weapons at a lower chance than a fist master with a higher chance. You essentially need to have the dmg difference match the critical chance difference to equal out.

i.e. 750 for a sword vs 520 for a fist (made up to show the formula, not real numbers). The difference is that the sword deals 750/520 = 144% dmg. You then divide the 144 by the speed difference of the two weapons, since more attacks means more chances to crit. So 1.43/1.11 would be 1.29. Divide 1.44 by 1.29 would yield a need for 112% more crit hit chance for fists than sword to equal out.

Obviously for more depth you would have to take into account speed boost from eq, skills, sparks if demon, and the level of upgrade of the weapon. The more upgraded the weapon is, the more fists will close the gaps with other weapons and gain that edge for better damage. But with a wider gap, crit doesn't mean as much. Not until late game for comparing at least.

Lyndura - Lost City

When refining weapons:

Spear/Sword/Hammer - Get the same amount of bonus per level of refinement.

Fists - Get less amount of bonus per level of refinement than the other weapons.

pieexplosion

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

When refining weapons:

Spear/Sword/Hammer - Get the same amount of bonus per level of refinement.

Fists - Get less amount of bonus per level of refinement than the other weapons.

Is the bonus normalized based on damage per second?

Prowler - Heavens Tear

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

When refining weapons:

Spear/Sword/Hammer - Get the same amount of bonus per level of refinement.

Fists - Get less amount of bonus per level of refinement than the other weapons.

Though I have never played BM, I just had to try this out just to test the veracity of a rather surprising statement, and it turned out to be untrue - an axe, a dual sword and a fist all gained identical bonus pro rata at +5.

My conclusion: In order to prove a point, the quoted poster may be dissembling somewhat.

Yes, at +1 the fist got less bonus, which presumably would be due to rounding off of a lesser starting value.

Now hoping the auction house is kind to me in getting rid of the gear :-) ... And good timing on the Dragon Orb super-sale.

Warm Regards

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Prowler - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Though I have never played BM, I just had to try this out just to test the veracity of a rather surprising statement, and it turned out to be untrue - an axe, a dual sword and a fist all gained identical bonus pro rata at +5.

My conclusion: In order to prove a point, the quoted poster may be dissembling somewhat.

Yes, at +1 the fist got less bonus, which presumably would be due to rounding off of a lesser starting value.

Now hoping the auction house is kind to me in getting rid of the gear :-) ... And good timing on the Dragon Orb super-sale.

Warm Regards

I guess then that is how fists end up being good late game. Speed boosts, with faster speed attack, with demon spark, with attack boosts from skills, with negative interval gear would make a +7 and higher fist out damage many other weapons. Also, if the other weapons will be counted as spamming skills to make up for low speed, then sword should be moved from 1.11 speed to the speed of skill use. If it is 1.11, then ignore this; but I think I remember reading that skills take 1 second attack speed. It is from over 2 months ago, so I could be wrong.

None of this will take away from the AoE capability of axes and such, but when you have the +% accuracy rings and multiple trees, at high lvl fists might be best when doing solo grinding against single mobs. +7 would cost 177 gold from 2 months ago with dragon orbs, but the reduction in price means it should be in the 100 gold range. Will take a while, but if playing a while easily within reach.

Thank you for checking at a higher rate of bonus, as it makes my lvl 40 BM's build that much more viable in the higher lvls as well.

Lyndura - Lost City

Sources:

www.pwdatabase.com
http://asiapworld.com/pw/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=57&Itemid=91


Fists always have a lower bonus from refinement, no matter what level/grade the weapons are.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

I went to pwdatabase and immediately checked on lvl 9 legendary weapons. Fists, sword, polearm, and mace. At lvl 11, each and every one had a +750 phys attack at lvl 12 refine. Only difference between them was that mace had lvl 87 req, the others were all 90. Might just be chance, but this check had prowler as being right. There might be lower lvl weapons where fist is worse, but I don't consider anything below 70th as worth mentioning. To me mid game is 80-100, so any comparison has to be high lvl gear. Once you start mentioning high refinement, it will usually be very late game when dealing with high refinement.

Lyndura - Lost City

There is one way to prove this.

Get four different level 90 weapons, and refine them. Then try them all on one BM with 272 STR and see the differences by each refinement level.

You will see they are not equal.

MistresShade - Sanctuary

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

There is one way to prove this.

Get four different level 90 weapons, and refine them. Then try them all on one BM with 272 STR and see the differences by each refinement level.

You will see they are not equal.

Are you a moron or something? If equipped of course there will be a large variance, but in your original statement you claimed every BM weapon got the same refinement bonus except teh fists (meaning something like +400 to everything but fist which is like +375 [imaginary numbers used]), and various people have since dispproved that. Equiping the weapons has absolutly no bearing on how much the refinement added.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/14868
These will make you a PvE god.
Especially with demon spark eruption.

also, someone check my math:
At lvl 90 you will have a total of 450 skill points. You put in 45 to vit, giving you 50 vit. you ave 400 points left, you need 227 str to wear the lvl 90 heavy armor, so you put in 222 str, you are left with 178 points to spend, and those fists cost 178 dex, so you put in 173 dex to get that amount, you have 5 points left over (7 if you take away 2 from magic) to distribute as you please.

This is all base with no gear on, so i don't see why fists have less hp then say axe users. Also lets say the average lvl 90 BM (well not average considering he has the 2nd best fists in the game) has relatively good gear with good bonuses, wouldn't these fists rake out intense DPS? Especially with the berserk and Hell spark eruption?

Hope this made sense ^_^;

Looks like im going fists at 90+

Seablue - Sanctuary

Yeah but if every time you hit berserker have a chance of activating you will lose a lot of hp. At least for axe you hit 10 mobs with it, that makes it worth activating since you'll save more hp in the long run. I heard the chance of activation is around 10~15% can anyone confirm that?

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Seablue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah but if every time you hit berserker have a chance of activating you will lose a lot of hp. At least for axe you hit 10 mobs with it, that makes it worth activating since you'll save more hp in the long run. I heard the chance of activation is around 10~15% can anyone confirm that?

Well considering at lvl 90 all the PvE you'll be doing is TTs and FBs you'll usually be 1v1, and that's where fists excel. Also, ill still have the same amount of HP if i have 50 vit base being an axe user or a fist user, the rest is based on my refinement/gear/shards.

Lyndura - Lost City

MistresShade - Sanctuary wrote: »

Are you a moron or something? If equipped of course there will be a large variance, but in your original statement you claimed every BM weapon got the same refinement bonus except teh fists (meaning something like +400 to everything but fist which is like +375 [imaginary numbers used]), and various people have since dispproved that. Equiping the weapons has absolutly no bearing on how much the refinement added.

Looks it was too difficult for you to understand.

With 272 STR, the modifer for both weapons will be the same. IF they refinement bonus they get per level is the same, they will get the same amount of physical attack added.

And yes, my original statement is that Fists do get less bonus than the other weapons, like your imaginary example.

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/14868
These will make you a PvE god.
Especially with demon spark eruption.

also, someone check my math:
At lvl 90 you will have a total of 450 skill points. You put in 45 to vit, giving you 50 vit. you ave 400 points left, you need 227 str to wear the lvl 90 heavy armor, so you put in 222 str, you are left with 178 points to spend, and those fists cost 178 dex, so you put in 173 dex to get that amount, you have 5 points left over (7 if you take away 2 from magic) to distribute as you please.

This is all base with no gear on, so i don't see why fists have less hp then say axe users. Also lets say the average lvl 90 BM (well not average considering he has the 2nd best fists in the game) has relatively good gear with good bonuses, wouldn't these fists rake out intense DPS? Especially with the berserk and Hell spark eruption?

Hope this made sense ^_^;

Looks like im going fists at 90+

Yes, your math is good.

Fists having less HP than Axes is for the low-mid levels.

About the damage...once you get Hell/Heaven Spark, Fists become pretty good at 1vs1 PvE.

At PvP they still deal low damage.

Seablue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah but if every time you hit berserker have a chance of activating you will lose a lot of hp. At least for axe you hit 10 mobs with it, that makes it worth activating since you'll save more hp in the long run. I heard the chance of activation is around 10~15% can anyone confirm that?

Yes, the chance to get Berserker is pretty high. There is no official information of what the % is, but you're pretty close with a 10~15%, which occurs pretty often.

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well considering at lvl 90 all the PvE you'll be doing is TTs and FBs you'll usually be 1v1, and that's where fists excel. Also, ill still have the same amount of HP if i have 50 vit base being an axe user or a fist user, the rest is based on my refinement/gear/shards.

At level 90+ you still do AoE grinding or grind parties at Heaven/Hell.

---

But yeah, at 9x (maybe 8x) there is no more weapon path differences. At those levels you have to use all the weapons to get out the best of them during different situations.

That is actually one thing that makes me play this class. We have many options to use and not get bored :P

Of course, Heaven/Hell will make some differences, but that doesn't really affects much.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Looks it was too difficult for you to understand.

With 272 STR, the modifer for both weapons will be the same. IF they refinement bonus they get per level is the same, they will get the same amount of physical attack added.

And yes, my original statement is that Fists do get less bonus than the other weapons, like your imaginary example.



Yes, your math is good.

Fists having less HP than Axes is for the low-mid levels.

About the damage...once you get Hell/Heaven Spark, Fists become pretty good at 1vs1 PvE.

At PvP they still deal low damage.




Yes, the chance to get Berserker is pretty high. There is no official information of what the % is, but you're pretty close with a 10~15%, which occurs pretty often.



At level 90+ you still do AoE grinding or grind parties at Heaven/Hell.

---

But yeah, at 9x (maybe 8x) there is no more weapon path differences. At those levels you have to use all the weapons to get out the best of them during different situations.

That is actually one thing that makes me play this class. We have many options to use and not get bored :P

Of course, Heaven/Hell will make some differences, but that doesn't really affects much.

Considering im on a PvE server and I've always loved fists (you remember ;3) you think i should go fists at 90+? cause if i zhen in heaven/hell i'll just be the puller right? and fists rock the DPS on 1v1.

Lyndura - Lost City

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

Considering im on a PvE server and I've always loved fists (you remember ;3) you think i should go fists at 90+? cause if i zhen in heaven/hell i'll just be the puller right? and fists rock the DPS on 1v1.

Well, once you get to level 90 you won't really need advice anymore.

You can do whatever you want, but as I said, you will probably be using 2~3 or all the weapons during different situations to get the best out of your class.

So you will still be Axe BM, with Fists for certain situations and Spear or/and Sword for others, etc.

For 1vs1 PvE (bosses or high HP mobs), once you get Heaven/Hell Spark, Fists are pretty much the best for that.

For 1vs1 PvE (low HP mobs, etc), in my opinion, any weapon does well, so it is matter of prefference.

TW - Your main job is to stun, but your second role depends on the ultimate you want to use. Most guilds ask you to use Dragon, some might use Myriad to nerf a group of damage dealers, and Glacial before/after another BM used Dragon on a group of people.

PvP - Anything but fists. If you have Hell Spark then you might like to use Bow against Wizards.

Lachupacabra - Harshlands

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Every STR point you have, plus the physical attack of the equipment, and addons, affect the formula to get the final damage, so you'r e just speculating, the damage difference is higher.

So if you're hitting 600~700's with Fist, you will be hitting 1800~2000 with Sword.

Now, this is just with normal attacks, which in PvP are very reduced, and you can't rely on them, so you have to use skills to bypass the enemy defense. When you use skills, the attack speed doesn't matter, and what does is the damage of the skill, combined with every point of STR and all the physical attack addons of the equipment.

This is where there is an even higher difference between damage of different weapons. But, since Fist skills have a really long cooldown time, and low damage, most Fist users preffer to go with normal hits at PvP, but they are just low damage.

To get an idea, most Fist BM's of my level hit me for 89-120 per normal hit, that's if they have Heavy Armor, which means high STR. And I have just average equipment, since I spent my money on higher level gears, what will happen when I hit 70 and I get all my HH70 armors? Not only the low damage, but they miss against me too, and I have the same critical % than them.

If they use LA, cool, it will take me 2-4 skills to kill them thanks to the low physical defense.

Just so you get an example:

Fist uses normal hits against a mob: 700-900 damage per hit.
Axe uses skills against a mob: 5000-7000 damage per hit.
A Wizard uses skills against a mob: 18000-25000 damage per hit.

Fist deals 5720 damage in 5 seconds.
Axe deals 18000 damage in 5 seconds.
Wizard deals 43000 damage in 5 seconds.

There you have your DPS.

Haha it's hilarious that you didn't even consider casting time and cool time.

And well, i will say something, if you think fists are useless then you didn't even tried to play with them or you really suck at it. For the fist-users that you have killed, all classes has strong and weak points.
All you need to do i think a little, use everything you can, make a good build.. fists are not weak they are just tricky.

Onxy - Harshlands

Fist BM

The concept:
1) high attack speed.
2) high evasion
3) the anti-mage


The reality:
1) dps is the domain of skill spamming. The more skill damage you can do the better. Fist skill damage is low.
2) evasion is not as useful as HP (compare the survivability of a fist BM vs a Barb.
3) 1 skill is not enough to make you an anti mage class especially when its on a 12 second cooldown.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Onxy - Harshlands wrote: »

Fist BM

The concept:
1) high attack speed.
2) high evasion
3) the anti-mage


The reality:
1) dps is the domain of skill spamming. The more skill damage you can do the better. Fist skill damage is low.
2) evasion is not as useful as HP (compare the survivability of a fist BM vs a Barb.
3) 1 skill is not enough to make you an anti mage class especially when its on a 12 second cooldown.

Funny how I out DPS sword/spear/axe BMs higher lvl then me when he's spamming skills and i nearly match the DPS of archers (slingshot) 10 levels higher.

Also you can't compare the HP between a Barb and a BM, those are two different classes. Barbs are MEANT to have high HP.

Seablue - Sanctuary

dps is based on comparing normal attack. Even with my sword I can hold aggro much better than a axe, all i do have to do is spark and the aggro is on me. This should also apply to fist users.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Seablue - Sanctuary wrote: »

dps is based on comparing normal attack. Even with my sword I can hold aggro much better than a axe, all i do have to do is spark and the aggro is on me. This should also apply to fist users.

it does, I out DPS any other BM that's not fist. 1 adv. spark and im doing 2.5-3k a hit (That's a lot for fists)

Lyndura - Lost City

What kind of failure BMs are you comparing the damage to?

RenKu - Sanctuary

Fist Bms Do NOT suck just because they do low damage an still miss frequently doesnt make them bad they may do MILDLY decent in pvp but when they are put into Pve they dominate as fast as a wizard or cleric can kill with High crit rates an fast DPS SO DONT HATE.