Fist damage does not "suck"...

tatakairyu

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

What kind of failure BMs are you comparing the damage to?

3x BMs b:chuckle

Onxy - Harshlands

dps is based on comparing normal attack. Even with my sword I can hold aggro much better than a axe, all i do have to do is spark and the aggro is on me. This should also apply to fist users

Ummm, no. That is what you want to base your dps on. I on the other hand take dps as is which is damage per second. That damage is irrespective of whether it is caused by a normal hit or includes skills used. The argument you could have used is that there are some small variations in channel/cast/animation times where skill usage is concerned for example, Drake Bash has a 1.9 second total activation time while Vacuous Palm takes 1 second to activate. My argument is that in the space of say 30 seconds I as an axe BM can chain a set of skills which puts out more damage than a fist BM using either normal attacks or skills or even a mixture.

Over an extended period of time, taking mana and cooldown times into consideration as well as critical hits (I assume the fist BM to normally use more dex points than an axe BM unless the axe BM forgoes vit for dex), etc, I am sure a fist BM could make a convincing argument that they have the higher dps. The problem is that in most situations that length of time will not present itself. In fact the only situation where sustained dps becomes important is in boss battles and If we are dealing with team oriented boss battles then dps is not the biggest determinant of agro. Sure its great for kill speed but its not the most significant factor in terms of generating agro.

I often find boasting about being able to steal agro a hollow argument because it is usually not significant in the context of killing a boss. In any event you want you Barb or Veno pet to hold agro and you must acknowledge that in any instant an archer or wizard could take agro from you. Just BTW, if skill don't count in dps arguments, how do you determine the dps of a wizard?

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also you can't compare the HP between a Barb and a BM, those are two different classes. Barbs are MEANT to have high HP.

You misunderstand my statement. I was not comparing the HP of a Barb to that of a BM. I was comparing the effectiveness of evasion versus the effectiveness of HP. My point was that a fist BM by nature of having a higher dex requirement should also benefit from a high evasion stat and in terms of being advantageous to a fist BM. In my previous mmo and prior to the evasion stat nerf, a class known as Striders had huge evasion ability leading to what became known as evasion tanks. It was great since the striders could provide excellent sustained damage while serving as great tanks due to an almost 75% rate of evasion. Problem was that they supplanted holy warriors as the games tanking class. Not to mention they became PvP kings. Well, then the nerf occurred! They still haven't recovered b:chuckle.

Anyhow, the point is that evasion of a fist BM counts for precious little compared to having high HP. However we recognise that a fist BM through build and gears could have HP comparable to that of an axe BM. The one argument I would put forward is that having a fist BM with high HP to me just shows the weakness of the fist BM even more. To me a fist BM should be akin to a melee version of an archer in terms of the dex requirement and hence using evasion and criticals to their advantage. A fist BM suits a ninja like role where they get in and get out causing as much mayhem as they can especially for clerics and wizards!

Having said so much I may raise a BM specifically for this role just to see how it works.

The ferenczy - Sanctuary

hey bottom line from barb point of view at least on this issue.

i have had recently the opportunity to see equal lvl fist and blade bms tank. both were lvl 7X less than 2 lvl apart the fist was the lower lvl. on every boss the fist bm wound up being tank. why cuz she stole agro from the blade.

for blade masters total damage output = agro since you have no real agro grabbing skills compared to barbs that is.

so just the simple fact that she unwantingly had agro should end the debate on fist bm damage sucking.

it might not look as impressive spike wise but it ads up and in a fight other than charm breaking pvp that is what matters period.

tatakairyu

That's exactly what the 10 billion other posters said ferenczy. Prolonged fights are the only place where a fist bm can do better dps than an axe besides pvp.

Fist damage DOES suck in some aspects so hah, beat that.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Well, one thing we can all agree on, fists are the cheapest money wise

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Alot depends on what people keep terming end-game. Most seem to think +8 and 100 or so is end-game, in which making the case for fist dmg is harder. But talking about 1 year+, +8 being the minimum, and 120+ lvl fist takes over.

Lvl 14 3*s to prevent any variance from special abilities of legendary weapons.

Fist
638-705
+579 from lvl 10 refine
+100 from 2 lvl 10 gems

1317 - 1384 avg dmg of 1350.5

765 - 1784
+579 from lvl 10 refine
+100 from 2 lvl 10 gems

1444 - 2463 avg dmg of 1953.5

So the dmg difference isn't much, and stays the same. Axes deal 45% more dmg at this point. Lvl 12 refine and dmg difference drops to 35% more. So, time to make use of this ****. Do note that both would need equal str to make the match across be the same. If not reduce by respective percent of str scores.

Speed is where fists come into play, and you don't use skill combos to do that. You use instant boosts if you have celestial skill additions on them, use 1 or 2 skills to get your boosted dmg/speed/snare going, and beat the hell out of them. Why use a skill that reduces your attack to 1 a second?

So, looking at axe skills, the average time for attack is 2 secs and basic ones are around 1 second each. Any lvl 90+ who uses axe if you could, put down the skill combo or time of the combo for your set. This will allow for a more accurate measurement. For simplicity, going with one of each alternated for avg time of 1.5 per attack, meaning attack speed of .67. No speed up skills are hitting, and sparking won't change dps compared to fist spark since the DPS of both would be affected. Axe would get more from dmg, while fist would get more for speed. Same principle would apply, whichever does more base DPS maintains a higher sparked DPS.

Now fists a good skill would be Cyclone Heel, then nothing. Heaven is +15%, Hell +20%. With 1.43 starting attacks, 15% would be 1.6 and 20% would be 1.7. After that, auto-attack with maybe a stun or slowdown. Stick with 1.7 over 1 as much as you can.

So, to make them equal to eachother, .67 would be multiplied by either 45% of 35% depending on lvl 10 or 12 refinement. That accounts for the extra dmg you are getting from axes. At 45 it is .97, which for one year of play is the main end game we'll see. Now, 1.7 attack speed versus .97 means the BASE dmg of fists versus axe has the fists dealing 75% more dmg than axes are. So a quick way to check which deals more dmg, is for an axe user to take 75% of their phys attk in their char sheet and figure out if the skills they use have bonuses that equal up to that. If they don't, then fists have better DPS without needing a long time.

This is assuming that an axe user uses both a 2 sec axe skill and a 1 sec generic skill as their first 2 attacks in a combo. If they use 2 basic, then it is more in their favor. 2 axe, and it falls further out of their favor. It's why getting some good axe players who are high lvl's combo times, or combos, would help out so much.

End-note: Just realized I stuck with demon side for the fist speed when comparing to axe. Think that is my subconscious preference for demon at this point. I really like the idea of crits and fast attacks over some extra spike amount. Let's face it, 15% xtra dmg towards a spike on a fist master makes you wonder why not just go a different weapon. Gimme Sutra stuns with guaranteed stuns any day .

And everyone else, please add or edit this as you notice is needed. Though anyone who thinks high lvls makes up for their barely passing math skills allows them to offer critique on numbers, remember the word no.

Heavyweight - Sanctuary

All I have to say is this. Back when Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction was still very popular, I began realizing my nack for analyzing and experimenting. Prior to this game, me and a friend of mines loved breaking games and finding out ways to make the underdogs utterly powerful. Not many people choose to believe me when I say this to this day, but I created the first elemental druid and enchant sorceress on that game. Prior to the synergy patch, they were the laughing stock, simply put. BUT, after the patch, being able to sock a level 1 15 health zombie in the face with a 4000 damage flaming fist at level 1 quickly became a universal realization. A realization that people whom experiment with builds and what not when it comes to MMORPG's and online games SHOCK the very foundations of that gaming world. Given, there have been some pretty epic failure-type builds out there, the ones I have had success with have become trends of the exciting and successful kind.

I've had my share of making "Cookie Cutter" builds for every single rpg out there, believe me. From Everquest to World of Warcraft, I've been doing this for quite a long time. They may be efficient and true to the genetic structures of the characters, but that's all they are. Most of you people thrive on cloning safe character type builds. There is no sense of individuality or uniqueness. The only thing that seperates you all are critical number crunching, and names. Your stats and gear all end up being around the same sh*t over and over again.b:shocked

Learn to think outside the box, and maybe, like Will, who has decided to go up against the many other people who stick together with the only things they know, and has tried to share his vision and idea of being able to go beyond the norm and to express your creative nature! It's all about fun baby. And who knows, maybe there will be a huge patch coming soon, with Fistmasters getting new skills towards their cause, and new weapons for them to utilize, and Will's Fistmaster character will begin **** everything in that game. When the tables turn, it won't look pretty.b:angry

I salute you Will. For rivaling the norm and instilling your knowledge for those who will choose to listen and learn, and hopefully take the influence in expressing their own creative tendencies when having fun playing PWI or any other game like it out there. Only time will tell if the FM will become something formidable in the end. And I'm waiting for it.

DarkOsiris - Lost City

ill say this fists are ok lol but id not advise it tell your 9x and only if u re a hell warrior for 1 ppl go axes for lvling punching a mob to death is kinda boring for 1 for 2 id go nutz killing 1 mob at a time for 2 unless u are planing on droping bills down to + your wep and massive + your gears u are a 1 shot to a high lvl archer or mage in the same sence u are a archer killer too but like i say with out vit if a archer crits and knows how to kite your fed

DarkOsiris - Lost City

the lvl cap is 105 lol do u know how much exp its is to 99 to 100 alot ima just say it FAIL FAIL LoL some se me when u hit lvl 120 man lol lol but in a more reasonable lvl like 9x lol @ lvl 120+ hella funny man 9x vrs 9x gx vrs fist with zerk gx ftw

LongThan - Sanctuary

have no idea what u talking about dark

Revolte - Heavens Tear

I use claws and I love them

also I had a Blade Master that used duel axes a few months back and i noticed I kill MUCH faster with claws ( i know this isnt a claw thread but its close ).

the MAIN difference between claw/fist and the others is it replaces damage with speed. you also end up getting better evasion and critical hit chance ( depending on the build i suppose idk )

which means the pvp can go one of two ways

either you cant hit me enough due to my high evasion and i get in enough fast hits with a likely chance at crit which could possibly bring my hits to the same damage as your base and you die

or

i am unable to strike fast enough blows and dont get enough crit and you get enough huge hits on me and I die


it all just depends on certain situations. Build is also important. the lovely thing is you can heal yourself. so its possible that can give me an advantage if your relying on hard hits but less hits and im relying on lighter hits but more hits as I would have more time ( possibly ) to get my health back up then you would.


in the end I love claws dunno about fists though but im assuming the same logic apply

Revolte - Heavens Tear

DarkOsiris - Lost City wrote: »

the lvl cap is 105 lol do u know how much exp its is to 99 to 100 alot ima just say it FAIL FAIL LoL some se me when u hit lvl 120 man lol lol but in a more reasonable lvl like 9x lol @ lvl 120+ hella funny man 9x vrs 9x gx vrs fist with zerk gx ftw

most likely the level cap will get higher as there is equipment for lvl 120+

Revolte - Heavens Tear

LongThan - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol fist bm suck, today i fought with a fist bm lvl 60 and while im lvl 49 axe bm, oh god when the fist bm atk me i saw the dmg so suck i let him atk me for awhile. And i start to atk him i still do way more dmg, but i didnt win however i almost kill him considering our lvl is 11 apart.

my old lvl 45 duel axe bm would get his butt kicked by my lvl 40 claw bm

maybee im really missing the difference between claws and fists or everyones throwing bias opinions based off of one or two experiences or stuff they read but forget build, experience, prefference and playing style

idk

Phoenix - Dreamweaver

my old lvl 45 duel axe bm would get his butt kicked by my lvl 40 claw bm

maybee im really missing the difference between claws and fists or everyones throwing bias opinions based off of one or two experiences or stuff they read but forget build, experience, prefference and playing style

I'm guessing it's because you were 40/45. Get up to 70, turn PK on, and try taking down a Heavy Armor user with your fists/claws. Unless their build is ****, you won't get through their guardian charm short of drastic measures like waiting for their charm to tick off, then popping Adv. Spark Eruption + Chi meds + Drake's Breath Bash DOOM SKILL and hopefully melee them to death before 10 seconds are up. It's possible, but it's also dependent on your opponent not being able to stun you, which means either they need to be stunned or you need Bodhisatva up. That's a metric f*ckton of chi to burn.

Without spark eruption, I hit most BMs, depending on their gear and buffs, for ~80-150 dmg a fist with my Courageous Fists +2 (low refinement, I know, but I'll be hitting 70 soon enough that I'm not wasting dragon orbs). Probably hit barbs for even less. I turned my name blue until I can get my axe skills up to par; it's fun switching off between the two in PVE, I'm sure it'll make PVP more hectic but worthwhile.

The good news is against most Arcane/LA you'll ****, assuming they don't drop you first and are stunned long enough not to run away. The sober news is, the same applies to other skill trees for BMs, too.

Then again, I'm a bit STR-heavy to equip both axes and fists, so your mileage may vary. But not by much...

Arron - Dreamweaver

I am a fist user right now, and i am enjoying it. with the new genies out it becomes a better class. Axes and Poles may be damage dealers, but can they cancel channel? can they increase attack speed with skills? can they hit 2.0/sec attack rate with Relentless Courage?

It really doesn't matter. Fist BM's crit more and i find kill faster. they evade many attacks and can **** LA and AA people. the fact is, they can kill faster and are much more efficient. that's my point of view. do what you want. i recommend Fist BM.

Granrey - Sanctuary

Axes cant outdamage fists if both of them have same stats and equivalent gear(unlikely to have same stats anyways).

I wish I could find a formula that calculates the % of landed hits based on accuracy and evasion points as well as level from both character.

Until I see that, I might agree that axes have probably the advantage.

Still, I use my fistsb:laugh

XPapewaiox - Lost City

Actually, fists are AMAZING 1v1. I use my fists when grinding on mobs solo, axes when I aoe them.

For example, my molder 70 +1 claws outdamage my TT80 +1 shinroaxes by 10-15%. Only downside is the weapon repair costs. I'm not counting skills here, just auto attack.

However, their spike damage is pathetic, and are virtually useless in PvP (except duels perhaps)

KhaosShadow - Sanctuary

Fists have better damage 1vs1. I have TT90 axes and TT80 fists. I have all 3 demon skills from fb89 (tiger maw, draw blood, stream strike) and even using mostly those with the axes fists will still kill mobs faster, unless I get lucky and crit 3 times in a row at the max axe dmg. Fists really shine on long bosses though.

Also, they higher the level you get the closer fist and axe damage will become. Sence +phy attack on rings and other equips and your level are part of the damage formula, it increases fists damage over all higher because of the attack speed. (higher str doesn't matter because it'll increase the same % from both weapons causing the same ratio between the 2 weapons.)

Dishy - Harshlands

sword and fist build are the same lol. (5str/4dex/1vit) unless u go 2x sword/blade(fail ). so you crit JUST as often. you hit JUST as much. you dodge JUST as much.

Sword/Fist are two completely different things, and fist does less damage(str multiplier effects swords quite a bit more) and sword's skills are a bit better( ult does base+200%((thats 300%)) PLUS a number. I have to admit, the fist's ult does sound good against heavy armor (+80% of your damage added in fire damage for like 12 seconds) but it only works for normal attacks, so all they have to so is leap back .

Fist relys very heavily on normal attacks and uses skills to slow, stop stuns, and stun. It does GREAT damage if it is hitting directly. It gets more damage in between each stun, but has no real damage skills, so you are stuck point blank hitting someone, where even a sword can hit

And Lyndura, you know nothing. bye .

Lyndura: The base damage of both weapons (without Berserker) is barely the same/a little higher (Firelotus).
Maddrox:*Looks up a HH80 gold weapon* No!! you're wrong!!
Lyndura: No, I have both weapons, I know what I'm talking about.
Maddrox Does math. Shows proof. This is what I found! they are not even close!
Lyndura: You're using the wrong weapon, that is a Poleblade not Spear. QQ You forgot about the shards too.. I am sorry i'm too stupid to specify what i'm talking about.
Maddrox The physical attack is higher still, and yes it is close. Berserker is still a much better weapon.
Lyndura: I never said whether it was a better or not. QQ The axes are stronger than the FireLotus
Maddrox You changed the topic. Yes, of course. How can they not be, but very impressive for being a Blade (The worst weapon in my path).
Lyndura: Well your physical attack doesn't mean anything when it comes to your actual damage. (Frantic) Now i'm going to talk about random stuff and try to come up with something asap to redeem myself.
Maddrox Quit changing the topic.. >_> The physical attack you have total does have everything to do with your total damage output in the end. The skills base the damage off of %'s and additional damage added on to that. The damage as a whole is entirely based off of your total damage output and some variables.
Lyndura: (getting sweaty now) Umm I bet you're going to be one of those noobs who think heavens mastery adds 30% more total damage.
Maddrox X.X You just changed the subject again.. "Sages" mastery just add's another 30% to the already 60% increase in the weapons damage.
Lyndura: ah HA! You made a typo and typed different things!
Maddrox o.o.... Ok? Sorry?
Lyndura: Well.. You don't know how physical damage works! There is a Formula! HA! It makes the total damage output equal or even greater than with the swords!
Maddrox Changing back to topic? So what is this "formula" that makes people with weaker weapons stronger than the ones with better weapons? 0.0" That's kind of scary.. Besides it's impossible. It DOES have everything to do with the total damage output, no "formula" with hidden advantages to your side is going to change the outcome. It's still just a little under in stats. Ples with berserker the damage output would be higher for me anyways.
Granley: **Makes her look totally stupid about the not knowing what physical attack thing is**
Xenaaah: Bass Masters are the best! I'll whip all y'all with my trout of might. Sword masters still kick ****!!
Maddrox o.0 .... Random
Lyndura: I said (in my first post) that the base damage of both weapons without Berserker is barely the same.
Maddrox Changing the topic AGAIN?
Lyndura: /facepalm (That must be the root of the problem, her lack of thinking clearly) Try other weapons, you'll know what i'm talking about!
Maddrox What does trying other weapons have to do with this.. >_>
Lyndura: All this was about it.
Maddrox umm..
Lyndura: You can't get the total damage from your total damage ( o.x ) You have to get the DPS first! ( what... ) The formula is ([(1+(MAG/100))*(Level + Equipment Magical Attack)] + (MAG + Weapon Magical Attack)*(Magical Attack % from skill) + (skill add-on damage))*(100%+Mastery%)
then you calculate the damage against magic resists, and add this to give me more power. And a weaker person will be stronger basically. This is my logic. It's not that simple. Your character stats are all a big lie. There's all kinds of other unproven theories as well! Summarized for the viewer's sanity.
Maddrox ..."Unproven theories"... And I wonder why they haven't been proven yet.
Granley: *Tells her how it works*
Lyndura: It's not accurate, the physical damage does not have anything to do with the final damage. Ask the wizards, it's different for them. (Like they could care less about a formula) NOTE: These are not official formula's, so they might be complete BS or I don't understand it
Maddrox Shows her how it works, yet again*
Maddrox It's simple.. Your total damage output has everything to do with you damage. The server calculates the total damage with the resistances, and other factors. We don't have to do any work. And no, nothing in any formulas make weaker people stronger than any other. If you were right on the formula, we'd be having lvl 30's griefing QQme for a change.
Lyndura: You need to rename your topic. (Wtf?!)
Granrey: Again, he owns her with correct logic as well. Double teamed.
Lyndura: (Freaking out) But.. but.. NO.. You don't understand ANYTHING. /facepalm (There goes more brain cells)
Maddrox Yeah.. Defense levels and everything is taken into consideration but does not op any weaker damaging people.. try attacking the same mob or person with the same weapon.

Skips alot of this repeated stuff...While she changes the topic a good few more times pointlessly...

Zhoelle: YAY I love battle with words. Although i got lost patially through it..
(Yeah.. she sent that debate back and forth, all over the place. o.0 Maybe trying to redeem herself?)
Lyndura: All you do is prove my points!! QQ See? The firelotus without berserk is a lil stronger than the Jade spear!
Maddrox Back to this are you serious. wtf.
Lyndura: I never said ti was better!
Granrey: Lets use your logic for a bit:

I go to the store to buy an item. The clerc tells me the price for that item is $100.00

Since, I dont know the formula for the store to come to that price but acording to your logic, as I dont know the formula and the formula is secret for everyone. $100 is not the real price even though they are telling me it is?
(EPIC!! Yet so true)
Maddrox LMAO. *Quotes everything in some long post the made and proves everything wrong directly*
Lyndura: Quote this, quote this (Changing topics again.. -.-) and so on then writes some wierd person A & B thing
Granrey: *Simplifies what I have been trying to say for hours now* Thank god he's here
Lyndura: QQ
Maddrox Suggests she's having a hard time reading what we're saying and increases font size
Lyndura: *Changes the topic back to the start*
Your number's were for the wrong spear
Maddrox Oh yeah, she's right. They were close (Must have missed the fix)
Lyndura: LOOK AT ALL THIS DRAMA YOU'VE CREATED QQ
Maddrox:*Me? It all started from your biased information, and by the time you corrected the issue made yourself look like an idiot again. 0.0"
Lyndura: You're filled with rage and drama! I Can't take it anymore QQ
Maddrox ...(LOL the whole time along with Granrey)
Was merely making a point. I said long ago you were right about the base damage being close long ago Lyndura.
Lyndura: NUUU You SAW THAT?
Maddrox Do you want this to end or something? x.x I see Granley gave up long ago, like I should have. We will never have the same logic, I understand the game along with about 99% of everyone else
Granrey: "LOLing the whole time @ Lyndura"
Lyndura: *Desperately makes an incomplete summarization on what we have just gone over.*

Too lazy to quote. From page 10 from the "Sword BMs are the best" thread. posted by Maddrox. I just thought it is funny

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear

Dishy - Harshlands wrote: »

sword and fist build are the same lol. (5str/4dex/1vit) unless u go 2x sword/blade(fail ). so you crit JUST as often. you hit JUST as much. you dodge JUST as much.

Sword/Fist are two completely different things, and fist does less damage(str multiplier effects swords quite a bit more) and sword's skills are a bit better( ult does base+200%((thats 300%)) PLUS a number. I have to admit, the fist's ult does sound good against heavy armor (+80% of your damage added in fire damage for like 12 seconds) but it only works for normal attacks, so all they have to so is leap back .

Fist relys very heavily on normal attacks and uses skills to slow, stop stuns, and stun. It does GREAT damage if it is hitting directly. It gets more damage in between each stun, but has no real damage skills, so you are stuck point blank hitting someone, where even a sword can hit

And Lyndura, you know nothing. bye .

By now you should realize a build is dependent on the person and weapon being used. With the build stated you could use both fists and swords...but its not the end all be all build for either. Be careful with your statements.

DishyWiggles - Harshlands

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

By now you should realize a build is dependent on the person and weapon being used. With the build stated you could use both fists and swords...but its not the end all be all build for either. Be careful with your statements.

I stated that its the SWORD bm build, aka 1x sword or blade. Any other build and your SWORD bm will suck donkey dong. sword = 1.11 attack rate, so you use auto attacks pretty often. you need more dex than str for auto attack. i didnt say 2x sword BM.

If I meant 2x sword, i would say 2x sword ^^

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear

So its an opinion based build.

Lyndura - Lost City

DishyWiggles - Harshlands wrote: »

I stated that its the SWORD bm build, aka 1x sword or blade. Any other build and your SWORD bm will suck donkey dong. sword = 1.11 attack rate, so you use auto attacks pretty often. you need more dex than str for auto attack. i didnt say 2x sword BM.

If I meant 2x sword, i would say 2x sword ^^

Your opinion is just based on what you know from your friend, other than that you don't know what you're talking about. As AdvanceZero said, it is a opinion based build.

As well as what you "quoted" is totally biased on an opinion and (dumb) perspective from another person, which is totally irrelevant to this thread.

Revolte - Heavens Tear

55vit

140str

160dex

with equipment adds of course.

light armor.

love the build, works for me. whats done often isnt always whats best for everyone.

the best advice i coudl give is go by your own ideas. just because someone made a guide doesnt mean they dont get beat up. like ive said before you cant calculate your way through experience.


and lets not forget its a game if yoru not having fun with it then why are you playing? so even if yoru not as strong as someone else, enjoy it anyway. keep in mind that person who may be better then you is much worse then someone else out there.

take personal skill into account too.

most of the people i duel or pvp with are 10-20 levels higher then me, and i do just fine, i dont win all the time but ive had my wins, barbs are my worst enemy but even then i can at least half life a barb 10 levels higher then me with more buffs then me, that might not be a win, alone, but in a group battle would definitly do some good.

fists bms have a bad rep, and in my mind that means they are better to go with because no ones ganna think of needing to fight them, you get an advantage that way.

and if you builg yoru geenie right you can help combat the problems you have with that less dmg.

for example

my 30% defense debuff helps me with my dmg

thunderstorm helps as well, and im currently building it to where i can use thunderstorm after the debuff

the debuff is also helpful in groups as it has 15 meter aoe range.

but really, the most important thing is to have fun, and remember you wont win a tw with one amazing guy and a **** group, but you can win with one **** guy and an amazing squad. Its a teamwork game, things change when going form 1v1 and onto more.

also keep in mind for the fist bm you do get a skill wich makes you hit even faster so that plus debuffs plus stuns plus skill and do alot more then people might think.

Umeru - Heavens Tear

@ _Willfire_
Fist > other weapons, DPS weapons + skills that can cancel ftw

@ Lyundra
You made a decent guide, but not about fists. I agree with some stuff, and other things like fists not recomended... I know its a lie,

I am a jealous barb, BMs get fist skills they are lucky b:surrender . I want fists with high VIT!! b:angry

I wish fists don't require too much DEX and barbs use fists instead of axes, fists are not blades (blademaster) b:surrender

-_-" lucky BMs....
Oh well, anyways its opinions, I have my opinions
Fists > axes > hammers > spears > swords > bows / slingshot > other (ewwwww i hate the other weapons actually)

Umeru - Heavens Tear

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Fist Blademaster: I don't acknowledge this kind of weapon when it comes to make a sucessful Blademaster for either, PvE or PvP. It's my own personal suggestion to avoid this path. If you want to know the reasons, just type "Fist BM" at Search function, and read the diverse topics about them. They have just too many disadvantages that I won't waste my time for this.


Play with your stats, you already have the minimum requirements there, so you won't mess up, doesn't matter what you do.

Your serious about this? Ok... You said this in guide.... the first thing you insult fist users. You haven't even try using it and saying fists have too many disadvatages in both PVE/PVP? Also suggesting people NOT to go on fist path? How can you say its bad when you never even experienced fists yourself?

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

I don't acknowledge this kind of weapon when it comes to make a sucessful Blademaster for either, PvE or PvP.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

It's my own personal suggestion to avoid this path.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

They have just too many disadvantages that I won't waste my time for this.

There are people actually good with fists. You and other fist haters are just jealous of their skills... Fists have cancel ability.

There are some messed up barbs I heard... Aren't they using axes too? Its not the weapons what is better than another, its the player's way of playing the game.

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Play with your stats, you already have the minimum requirements there, so you won't mess up, doesn't matter what you do.

You including fist users right here.

If there are acc rings there should be DMG rings with STR to remedy fist DMG are there not?

Make up your mind... Are you saying fists are fail? Or are you trying lie to people into doing what you want them to do? Also I am a PVE carebear, don't care about PVP.

I am still a newbie, yes, I still want to experience and learn a lot... but I am not what people call n00b, its an insult to us new players and it means loser, failure, failed to learn. Its like calling people failures when they just started the game. I made a BM, he WILL be a fist user regardless what you recomend.

~Guardianmaster, the holy guardian

Granrey - Sanctuary

The reality is that the pro axes progaganda has been so good that even creates a lot of miss info. Axes could be better but that would never mean that all the other weapons are not good or are useless.

for instance.

I was in a TT run the other day. There are two BM (pole users), 1 cleric, 1 barb, and me (BM, hybrid with sword, fists and axes).

The first thing the barb said was: "oh there is not a single axes user here"

I was wearing my fists. Then I say: "I have axes too"

Barb: "Do you have flames"

me: "yes"

as we go they see me switching weapons and start asking questions and all the BS as you must stick to one weapon and how axes are better, ect (but pole bladers were like keeping a lower profile as they think pole is better than axes and want to keep it as a big secret so neither me or the barb know, lol)

When we were fighitng one magic boss. I;m using fists to make chi, dps and shadowless kick to cancell magic attack and sword for myriad of sword stance and atmos strike.

Well, they asked me, why I dont use flames from axes (in their mind anything regarding sword and fists sucks).

Well, I had to explain why myriad is IMO better than flames for this case (as they had no clue about the skill). I had to read the entire description of the skill.

Saying that, all these guys were 80+. Its hard to believe that people at these levels still have this kind of thinking about the weapons.

Lyndura - Lost City

Umeru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Your serious about this? Ok... You said this in guide.... the first thing you insult fist users. You haven't even try using it and saying fists have too many disadvatages in both PVE/PVP? Also suggesting people NOT to go on fist path? How can you say its bad when you never even experienced fists yourself?

You're assuming I have never used Fists before.

Sorry to disapoint you, but I have used Fists at high levels before and I know what they are like (Berserker fists, GV claws, etc). Maybe not on this char or version, but I know what I'm talking about. Otherwise I wouldn't even talk about it.

Even then, I still have Fists in this character and not low level ones like most BM's.

Umeru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There are people actually good with fists. You and other fist haters are just jealous of their skills... Fists have cancel ability.

Cancelling skill?!! Omg hax!!

But my Genie has a cancel skill too, it has 8 seconds cooldown (Fists one has 12 seconds), it has instant casting (Fist has channelling and casting times), it NEVER fails because it is magic (Fist one CAN miss) and it has 25m range (Fist one is NOT ranged).

Jealous? Not at all.

Umeru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If there are acc rings there should be DMG rings with STR to remedy fist DMG are there not?

Eh...damage rings give accuracy...so we get both, accuracy and damage.

Umeru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Make up your mind... Are you saying fists are fail? Or are you trying lie to people into doing what you want them to do? Also I am a PVE carebear, don't care about PVP.

"You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink."

Umeru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I am still a newbie, yes, I still want to experience and learn a lot... but I am not what people call n00b, its an insult to us new players and it means loser, failure, failed to learn. Its like calling people failures when they just started the game. I made a BM, he WILL be a fist user regardless what you recomend.

Eh...ok?

Dishy - Harshlands

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Your opinion is just based on what you know from your friend, other than that you don't know what you're talking about. As AdvanceZero said, it is a opinion based build.

As well as what you "quoted" is totally biased on an opinion and (dumb) perspective from another person, which is totally irrelevant to this thread.

I even told the forums thing its on. It's not biased, I read over the arguement before I read his summary.

All I know is that swords are amazing. I kill BMs 10 lvls above me(They have charms, too) with them. its like stun-crit normal normal crit crit normal normal crit. I crit sooo often with swords. It's actually quite funny to see ppl calling me 5x when im 3x with normal gear (except for mold lvl 30 2x swords). I've had a BM with lvl 30 mold axes and lvl 30 mold pole. They both sucked in comparison, and its no secret that 2x sword BMs can **** and pillage with their ult (1 shot LA ftw) and sparked atmos crits (1 shot LA crit((like 15% chance)) ftw.) It's is biased, but it's as unbiased as a person's opinion can be. I've seen all types of BMs fight and Sword fights the best.

Even axe BMs admit that swords will **** them. I've killed BMs that are like "You only won because sword is best 1v1" etc and I dont even have my skills yet.(mage bane ftl, wheres my atmos QQ) Barbs can't hit me without blood bath, and even then its hit miss miss hit miss miss miss hit spark miss miss miss hit hit miss(I got easily killed by barbs on my axe BM, it was half and half on pole)<--- All my builds were dex builds with some vit.

All these are assuming the character has a charm.

Mages cant touch me, just pop on some LA boots and wrists(3* HA has better mdef than normal 1* LA my lvl) and magic def ammy and belt. I have 45% magic resist on my BM with alter marrow(lvl 3-50%).

same with clerics, no cleric uses plume on BMs, lol.

Archer- They just QQ as i never miss. stunned(only 3.6 sec, ftl) hit stun(3 sec) hit hit dead. its np.

BM- Charmed, it's just whenever i get a crit stream or spark, they can't kill me

Barb- like i said above miss miss miss, i win when i spark and get some crits.

Veno- roar, stun pet and spark they die before they can cast the switch life and mana thingy.

I think that covers it? I'll edit this post(or make my own) as I level up and tell you how im doing in PvP

Granrey - Sanctuary

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Cancelling skill?!! Omg hax!!

But my Genie has a cancel skill too, it has 8 seconds cooldown (Fists one has 12 seconds), it has instant casting (Fist has channelling and casting times), it NEVER fails because it is magic (Fist one CAN miss) and it has 25m range (Fist one is NOT ranged).

Jealous? Not at all.

Which skill is that i;m interestedb:dirty

Does this skill from genie works on bosses as shadowless does?

Saying that, shadowless kick also has a damage attached to it.