Fist damage does not "suck"...

Laranda - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »

Which skill is that i;m interestedb:dirty

Lightning Chaser o.o

You need 5 metal affinity to get it. I'd answer your other question, but my genie still needs 1 more affinity to get it. b:surrender

Lightning chaser does damage too... of course a lv1 shadowless could easily outdamage a lv10 chaser. >.>

Lyndura - Lost City · June 2009

Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »

Which skill is that i;m interestedb:dirty

Does this skill from genie works on bosses as shadowless does?

Saying that, shadowless kick also has a damage attached to it.

Yeah, as Laranda said, it is Lighting Chaser.

It works as same as Shadowless Kick (on bosses, mobs, people) just with the differences I pointed.

Shadowless deals damage, yes, but you can pretty much deal the same damage in the time it takes to cast the whole skill (including the animation of jumping and going down) of Shadowless Kick.

Granrey - Sanctuary · June 2009

thx for asnwers guysb:victory

Umeru - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

Cancelling skill?!! Omg hax!!

But my Genie has a cancel skill too, it has 8 seconds cooldown (Fists one has 12 seconds), it has instant casting (Fist has channelling and casting times), it NEVER fails because it is magic (Fist one CAN miss) and it has 25m range (Fist one is NOT ranged).

Agree with shorter cooldown, if you look at it, fist BMs are the safest and the most handy in squads when it comes to bosses if us barbs failed to cancel, proof from part of these

Dai - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Using Alacrity of the Beast is an important part of tanking. If you are able to cancel the boss's skills, especially the AoEs, then you can save your party from certain death .

Timing Alacrity of the Beast to cancel the boss's skills does take a bit of practice. The general idea is to use it immediately when you see that the boss stops attacking and a casting aura appears underneath the boss. Some bosses, such as the Myriadial Wyvern in FB 51, do not have a casting aura, yet you can cancel the skill. All bosses have a set attack pattern they follow every time. A boss's casting time varies, so you may have to time Alacrity of the Beast before you notice the boss casting.

Figure that out, as well as how the boss moves before/during/after it's casting skill, to time your attacks. And remember, using Alacrity of the Beast too early or too late will not cancel the boss's skill. You've only got a couple seconds or even 1 second to cancel it successfully. A common mistake is when you're in the middle of another skill animation when the boss starts casting. You'll be too late to cancel with Alacrity of the Beast. So you need to be prepared to use Alacrity of the Beast before the boss begins casting, while also making sure that you don't use it too soon.

Anyways, here's an example:
The 3rd boss of FB51, Myriadial Wyvern - it attacks 5 times before it uses it's AoE/cursing skill. So use Alacrity of the Beast after it does 5 normal attacks. The normal attacks look like headbutts and slaps, while the AoE/cursing skill looks like a stomp. So your goal is to prevent the boss from stomping :P .

Usually, the boss uses its casting spell after the cooldown time of Alacrity of the Beast. So this makes it possible to cancel every casting skill that the boss uses. There are some exceptions though, like the bosses that cast continuously (such as that Herc Trioc boss in FB39) or re-casts very quickly (like the HH 1-1 squad drum boss when it's at 5-10% HP). Those are either impossible or very difficult to cancel..

Also, mobs like to use their casting spell continuously if you have some distance between you and the mob. So a nice way to set up your timing for Alacrity of the Beast is to stop a few meters away from the mob, then see if it begins casting. If it does, immediately run up to it and cast Alacrity of the Beast. Now you'll know that the mob will cast again when the cooldown time of Alacrity of the Beast is over, so get ready for the next cancel when the cooldown is almost up!

What I just bolded, us barbs have the cooldown time about the same as BM's shadowless kick. If a fist BM have skill cancel, with the genie, if he/she know how to time his skills, us barbs don't have to worry about cooldown when we don't have to worry about some powerful skills the bosses would cast if fist BMs and and other barbs with genies canceling their powerful attacks.

On top of that, I believe fists are the BEST weapons ever, after all... BMs have LOW MP (Is that correct?). so DPS means a lot to BMs. Also, in humaniod form as a barb even if con built CAN kill fast in humaniod form when you burn MP potions. I know BMs burn a lot of pots as well, how much MP do BMs burn?

Yet, maybe you did try, and I haven't (I used lowest leveled fist on my barb XD it was pretty fun though).

Lyndura - Lost City · June 2009

You will see in a future that no one cares about MP, because 90% of the people uses MP charms.

Anyways, using Fists to cancel on bosses is not the best idea now that Genies can cancel for us, plus any class can do it. It is just much better.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Umeru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What I just bolded, us barbs have the cooldown time about the same as BM's shadowless kick. If a fist BM have skill cancel, with the genie, if he/she know how to time his skills, us barbs don't have to worry about cooldown when we don't have to worry about some powerful skills the bosses would cast if fist BMs and and other barbs with genies canceling their powerful attacks.

Let me correct you on your misconception.

Barbs cool down time for their cancel ability "Alacrity of the Beast" goes down as you level it. A barb needs at least level 7 in order to cancel bosses aoe/magic attacks in TT and some FB's. The standard AoE/magic attack time i believe is every 10 seconds. Level 7 cool down time is 9.5. When a barbs alacrity reaches level 10 their cool down time is 8 seconds.

So the barbs don't need to worry about genies to cancel or their cool down time for this ability. Barbs are the perfect tanks. They can cancel just as they are meant too.

A BM fist user will not be able to cancel as well as a barb. Even if they go demon. As their cool down time would be 10 seconds. You would only be able to cancel every other bosses magic/aoe attack. And relying on a Genie is dangerous. What happens when it runs out of power.

I hope I've helped clear some things up.

Umeru - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

You will see in a future that no one cares about MP, because 90% of the people uses MP charms.

Anyways, using Fists to cancel on bosses is not the best idea now that Genies can cancel for us, plus any class can do it. It is just much better.

MP charm burning lol, charms are nice. I never used an MP charm, but thinking an idea that MP charms on WB and BMs and possibly archers burn like crazy if spamming. Actually people care about MP, thats why they use MP charms. Heck, I'd use MP charms as well so I can DD b:victory

Also, I hear from you and the others about genies skill lightning chaser is nice, cancels come in handy. However, shadowless kick and lightning to cancel (right timing) makes fist BMs beat down casters with ease. Also, relying on genies burn stamina. I don't rely on genies (I have solid shield and tree of protection on my barb), I use in critical moments with my barb. I don't use genie skills too often, for soloing bosses in world maps i use all genie skills and use both tiger and humanoid skills.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Let me correct you on your misconception.

Barbs cool down time for their cancel ability "Alacrity of the Beast" goes down as you level it. A barb needs at least level 7 in order to cancel bosses aoe/magic attacks in TT and some FB's. The standard AoE/magic attack time i believe is every 10 seconds. Level 7 cool down time is 9.5. When a barbs alacrity reaches level 10 their cool down time is 8 seconds.

So the barbs don't need to worry about genies to cancel or their cool down time for this ability. Barbs are the perfect tanks. They can cancel just as they are meant too.

A BM fist user will not be able to cancel as well as a barb. Even if they go demon. As their cool down time would be 10 seconds. You would only be able to cancel every other bosses magic/aoe attack. And relying on a Genie is dangerous. What happens when it runs out of power.

I hope I've helped clear some things up.

I noticed that everytime alacrity of the beast lowers cooldown every time I leveled it. So the cooldown on shadowless kick don't decrease? Or it just that the cooldown is nott as fast as our cancel skill? I agree relying on genies are dangerous, best to have tons on of stamina before using genie skills.

Genies are nice, but shouldn't be depended on,

peace~ b:bye

Granrey - Sanctuary · June 2009

Umeru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

MP charm burning lol, charms are nice. I never used an MP charm, but thinking an idea that MP charms on WB and BMs and possibly archers burn like crazy if spamming. Actually people care about MP, thats why they use MP charms. Heck, I'd use MP charms as well so I can DD b:victory

Also, I hear from you and the others about genies skill lightning chaser is nice, cancels come in handy. However, shadowless kick and lightning to cancel (right timing) makes fist BMs beat down casters with ease. Also, relying on genies burn stamina. I don't rely on genies (I have solid shield and tree of protection on my barb), I use in critical moments with my barb. I don't use genie skills too often, for soloing bosses in world maps i use all genie skills and use both tiger and humanoid skills.

I noticed that everytime alacrity of the beast lowers cooldown every time I leveled it. So the cooldown on shadowless kick don't decrease? Or it just that the cooldown is nott as fast as our cancel skill? I agree relying on genies are dangerous, best to have tons on of stamina before using genie skills.

Genies are nice, but shouldn't be depended on,

peace~ b:bye

Regarding of burning MP, I do have a big concern. I use fists, sword and axes on my toon. I notice the following:

Fists/sword allows me to kill single mobs cheap but when I do grinding on axes I get more exps per minute but the cost is too high and to be honest I cant afford it.

saying that, I dont have have the skills totally maxed and I use a TT60 axes rather than TT70.

Regarding shadowless use in PVP, I dont understand how the cancelling works on PVP, as I have tried on duels and I cant time it properly as the time window is too short. Its really good with mobs as mobs are predictable and you can time yourself plus see the hints that the mobs do prior mag attacking.

Regarding the cooldown, it does not reduce as you level up. You can check it here:
http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php

Saying that I will try to combine it with mage bane from sword as this skill increases casting time of enemies. However, I will need to upgrade this skill first and I dont see that happening shortly as I have other skills to upgrade and as this is not important as the genie skill is available now.

Arron - Dreamweaver · June 2009

I find timing it pretty easy. i mean, i always get people with their long casting skills. and my crit rate is off the charts. lol. i kill level 70 BM's with my fist skills. and i never use MP charms. in 10 seconds a potion gets me going. saves cash too

But yea, people can perform much faster with a genie skill (Relentless Courage) which increases attack rate and channel rate. i go from 1.43/sec to 1.99/sec. trust me, i'm a PvP person alright!

Altayr - Dreamweaver · June 2009

Fistmaster, that sounds badass, and to all fist bm out there, you all know that we are beasts at DPS.

Maddrox - Harshlands · June 2009

damn Lyndura got owned yet again...

Where was I for all of this QQ

clementchui · June 2009

So, how good are fist users in PVP? just mediocre?

i cant decide on fist or an archer, ive tried both, but i cant decide. My main focus is PVP. This thread has inspired me to make a fist, but i really dont know how good they are for PVP.

Thanks.

Maddrox - Harshlands · June 2009

clementchui wrote: »

So, how good are fist users in PVP? just mediocre?

i cant decide on fist or an archer, ive tried both, but i cant decide. My main focus is PVP. This thread has inspired me to make a fist, but i really dont know how good they are for PVP.

Thanks.

In Duels they are the ****.

In PK, it's much harder... You'd have to rely more on your stuns, and crit/attack speed. There's just a few or so skills that are typically recommended, since most slow down your DPs. They can outdamage easily, but if someone runs, your stuck chasing them lol Very good for Dps on bosses and stuff. That's all from my understanding, Idk if I missed anything. Wrote this supa fast b:victory

Laranda - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

it has 8 seconds cooldown (Fists one has 12 seconds)

I've been playing with Lightning Chaser, and I've realized that this doesn't hold up in the long run. o.o

Yes, the cooldown on chaser is 8 sec. However genies don't have the energy to support using it every 8 sec. Let's say a 50 vit/50 mag genie (150 energy, 2/sec recovery) is using chaser asap. The first two are 8 sec apart. The third one is 13 sec after the second. After that, it takes about 35 sec for each use. Even if it isn't needed every 8 sec, a genie will run out of energy well before a fist bm will. b:bye

That said, chaser is a good skill to have. It beats unequipping a weapon to use shadowless and can cover when shadowless is on cool. It doesn't replace shadowless.

Forp - Heavens Tear · June 2009

i like the ignorance displayed throughout this thread. absolutely amazing.

i always loved it when people say axes are pvp and fist are pve, that's hilarious. considering fist have the hardest time in pve compared to any class, and axe warrior is considerably the best at it.

fist > every type of warrior end game. pvp wise.

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i like the ignorance displayed throughout this thread. absolutely amazing.

i always loved it when people say axes are pvp and fist are pve, that's hilarious. considering fist have the hardest time in pve compared to any class, and axe warrior is considerably the best at it.

fist > every type of warrior end game. pvp wise.

nope... fists/claws are also good for pve. more chi for sutra and less mana usage because you don't need to use skills. shadowless kick is great for bosses and magic mobs despite its long cooldown. fists are only poor for lvl <29 for the lack of sutra.

axes = aoe grinding = fast but needs charms and good armoury
fists = x1 grinding = cheap and safe

Xenaaah - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Dravion - Lost City wrote: »

wow Lyandra is really anti-fist b:laugh lol j/k

Hehe sure is! b:chuckle

Forp - Heavens Tear · June 2009

i've played fist to an average level, and i'm fairly positive that they take more damage than any other type of warrior. the flaw is that, until u get speed gears, fist suck. u have to be fast to show their worth. -.05, -.05 edge and -.05 wrist make a big difference on mine.

Complex - Lost City · June 2009

Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i've played fist to an average level, and i'm fairly positive that they take more damage than any other type of warrior. the flaw is that, until u get speed gears, fist suck. u have to be fast to show their worth. -.05, -.05 edge and -.05 wrist make a big difference on mine.

here is the problem, people who play private servers realize how much DPS fists do (Being able to get Zerk fists all -interval gear, refinement to +12), they're amazing at that. Fist is flawed you need your opponent to tank damage, which no smart person would do. Sure if you stack -interval in one stun you can do some heavy damage, but your not going to be killing a heavy unless they're too cocky and think they can tank damage.

DPS wise, Fist > Other weapons. Not the same thing as excelling at pvp.
Imo best weapon for pvp is Axe / Spear hybrid, high strength build relying on refinement for hp.

People commonly say fist is pure pve even though axes / spear can aoe. Fists are good endgame for grinding and endgame pvp but melees are gimped enough warriors are a skill based class. Fists just lack alot and don't compensate enough for them to be a viable option in an actual server. (where people have to earn gear and can't easily access all the vital parts of a perfect fist build).

Forp - Heavens Tear · June 2009

where does a pserver fall into this? my fist user is on delphi. last i checked, that was an official server.

Sylvae - Sanctuary · June 2009

Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i've played fist to an average level, and i'm fairly positive that they take more damage than any other type of warrior. the flaw is that, until u get speed gears, fist suck. u have to be fast to show their worth. -.05, -.05 edge and -.05 wrist make a big difference on mine.

Maybe if they are not heavy, or don't stat to str they might take more damage. But with the -.1 interval wrists, my BM was lvl 69 grinding on the lvl 76 clams. Good xp, killed faster than axe builds that were 70+, and didn't need a single potion or charm during it. Gear with lots of +phys res, Annihilator of Souls, and Sutra. I just use axes when I feel like going over to the seaweed thieves, if they are free, and soon when I begin Gamma with them. With 1.87 attack speed, hard to beat the DPS since the weapons were paid for with gems and refinement already on them for a really cheap price.

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Complex - Lost City wrote: »

Fist is flawed you need your opponent to tank damage, which no smart person would do. Sure if you stack -interval in one stun you can do some heavy damage, but your not going to be killing a heavy unless they're too cocky and think they can tank damage.

making the target run desperately is good already, isnt it?

by the way TT99 ashura set + TT100 fists = 2.22 hits/sec. that's the fists endgame and i'm quite sure few players will be able to escape roar+tyreseus. that's 6 sec stunned and 5 frozen.

Forp - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

Maybe if they are not heavy, or don't stat to str they might take more damage. But with the -.1 interval wrists, my BM was lvl 69 grinding on the lvl 76 clams. Good xp, killed faster than axe builds that were 70+, and didn't need a single potion or charm during it. Gear with lots of +phys res, Annihilator of Souls, and Sutra. I just use axes when I feel like going over to the seaweed thieves, if they are free, and soon when I begin Gamma with them. With 1.87 attack speed, hard to beat the DPS since the weapons were paid for with gems and refinement already on them for a really cheap price.

the only light armour that's on my fist user is the wrist, and that's for the -.05 interval. it's a heavy build, with just enough dex to wield the weapon.

i'm still fairly certain that without the speed gear i have as it is, leveling with fist would be a great deal harder than the other 3 builds.

and, u should know, the mp fist suck.

Lyndura - Lost City · June 2009

Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i've played fist to an average level, and i'm fairly positive that they take more damage than any other type of warrior. the flaw is that, until u get speed gears, fist suck. u have to be fast to show their worth. -.05, -.05 edge and -.05 wrist make a big difference on mine.

What is an average level?

Real PvP doesn't starts until level 90+, so I'm guessing that you have used Decadal God in combination with two HH99 Gold LA pieces, and two HH99 Gold HA pieces.

And you must also know how it performs against other classes (specially during air PvP), and compared them with GX, right?

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · June 2009

Arron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am a fist user right now, and i am enjoying it. with the new genies out it becomes a better class. Axes and Poles may be damage dealers, but can they cancel channel? can they increase attack speed with skills? can they hit 2.0/sec attack rate with Relentless Courage?

It really doesn't matter. Fist BM's crit more and i find kill faster. they evade many attacks and can **** LA and AA people. the fact is, they can kill faster and are much more efficient. that's my point of view. do what you want. i recommend Fist BM.

AH DONT INTERUPT MY CHANNELING!!!!!!!!! IF YOU DO I CANT 3 SHOT YOU QQ....Arron lets go PK'ing im bored b:cry

Complex - Lost City · June 2009

Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »

where does a pserver fall into this? my fist user is on delphi. last i checked, that was an official server.

what a tardb:bye

ReverseFlow - Heavens Tear · June 2009

umm correct me if i m wrong but the skill Frostblade adds Water dmg equal to %m.atk of the wiz casting right??

If so ..... thn the dmg by a fist user can be immense.

I also smwhere saw a setup of ~lv100 with 3.3x atks per sec . Which is a lot .

Sorry i don't remember where i saw it though

Taking u have cast Drake Breath + 3.3x Atk Speed + Cyclone Kick + Air Shield + Frsotblade + High Str[maybe 2~3 every lvl] + Fist Mastery can be quit lethal no??

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear · June 2009

ReverseFlow - Heavens Tear wrote: »

umm correct me if i m wrong but the skill Frostblade adds Water dmg equal to %m.atk of the wiz casting right??

If so ..... thn the dmg by a fist user can be immense.

I also smwhere saw a setup of ~lv100 with 3.3x atks per sec . Which is a lot .

Sorry i don't remember where i saw it though

Taking u have cast Drake Breath + 3.3x Atk Speed + Cyclone Kick + Air Shield + Frsotblade + High Str[maybe 2~3 every lvl] + Fist Mastery can be quit lethal no??

skill description is wrong. it adds up to 30% (40% for sage and 50% for demon) of your own base phys damage to final attacks.

Forp - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »

What is an average level?

Real PvP doesn't starts until level 90+, so I'm guessing that you have used Decadal God in combination with two HH99 Gold LA pieces, and two HH99 Gold HA pieces.

And you must also know how it performs against other classes (specially during air PvP), and compared them with GX, right?

71, which is why i said average. not end game, or mid game. just average.

no, i don't have that yet. as stated, i have edges with 2 -.05 mods and sleeves with -.05. though, i've met people in my old server that have such items. and i know people in heaven's tear aiming for that. why would u even say such a silly thing?

i've compared them to other weapons of that level and grade, but never considered air battles. warriors aren't usually in the air.

an axe warrior spams skills, it's how they get their damage, so:
(if ecatomb is right, though i'm losing faith in it)

2.2 seconds for aoelin blade
2.4 for roar
2.4 for highland cleave
1.7 for fissure
1.2 for drake sweep
1.9 for drake bash

= 11.8 seconds. it's not really that fast, common sense that it's not. but i'm not going to calculate the real time.

this being the average combo for an axe warrior, yes?

break down in damage from a +10 gx, that's about 1.6k per hit(on me, anyways; before dragon). after dragon, it's tipping over 3k(sometimes).

now, assuming there's a fist warrior given the same amount of time.

2.2 seconds for aoelin blade
2.0 for cyclone heel
2.4 for roar
normal attack~

all skills are used by channel and cast time, regardless of attack speed, so that's irrelevant to the axe warrior. given my warriors attack speed(at level 71) with level 6 cyclone heel is about 2 hits per second. in a brawl against a level 76 barb, i hit roughly 550 damage per swing.

that means i hit an extra 10ish times? as compared to your 4 hits. so 550 is equivalent to 5700~ damage. added with aoelin blade and cyclone heel(which actually does decent damage), i can recall spikes between 800 and 1.1k with aoelin, and 1.2k with heel consistently. that's 7920 average, yes?

the axe warrior, in that time, hits me for 1.6k per hit without dragon(assuming, with no crits), and they hit 5 times. that's 8000 damage in the same amount of time.

though this is comparing a level 71 to a 9x.

now, i know you're anti-everything about this branch and you'll counter everything i've said with "carebear; pve server" but w/e. b:bye

Lyndura - Lost City · June 2009

I don't really need to use "PvE" or "carebear", because all that you typed pretty much tell me that you don't know what you're talking about.

Fist damage does not "suck"...

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