Reviving The Game

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

data = information

I don't see that as a difficult concept.

Nitpicking a word doesn't move the ball forward. When I make an observation, the information gained is data. When I discuss it with others, the information gained is data. Did I really need to explain that?

What information? What data?

WannaBM - Archosaur

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

Indeed. No data either, no proof. But you asked for it. This is how you prefer to debate. With that i end my short visit to this thread again. Good luck with the rest of your "debate'.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

-Needing to find a scapegoat for their loss of joy in an aging game. I think many of us know the feeling that sometimes comes up "why am i spending all these hours on a game, only trying to get the best equipment until they introduce something new, i could be doing something usefull in with my life". Its a negative feeling linked to the boredom that comes with playing a game for a long time. Yet, you have "invested" so much time and/or money in the game you dont want to step away from it. So you start finding scapegoats and blame people and things for everything that is wrong with the game.

I can't believe I never stated this, but it's a very very big one.

Some people believe that if their enjoyment of something is faltering, it must be the target of the thing they're losing enjoyment in that's at fault. Therefore, scapegoating, fault-finding, etc.

Some of us fully know the bad steps taken with PWI, I can't find a competitor which has taken all the right steps, but one thing that's consistent is you'll find the same types of malcontents.

No data either, no proof. But you asked for it. This is how you prefer to debate.

LOL. I'm waiting for actual data, especially data manifested from people in game.

The truth isn't a tough thing to find, just go into the game and you'll find quite a shocker that renders the premise of this "strength of numbers" hype moot and a waste of time.

WnbTank - Archosaur

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What data?

He and his likely minded friends.

As far as it goes, I leveled my barb to 100 and power leveled both sin and archer in FC, starting at level 1. I am considered competent on either of said toons, which I believe is enough for point after which p.leveler shouldnt be harmful. My own personal experience is how grinding/guesting doesnt really give anything after first hour with full skills if you arent completely horrible at gaming. After that you get better with different things to do, meaning BH 100s as there are several kind of instances. Add NW & TW and we got a mix that teaches players.

Problem with "FC noobs" is the poisonous attitude certain group of players have on them. Nobody was amazing in this game when they started playing but who really likes to be told what kind of p.lvl noob they are and if they want to stop being useless leecher they should do X? I am not blaming anyone for downright hostility but if you arent neutral on subject, you likely arent neutral towards players who p.lvld.

You teach competent player how to do instance Y and they learn it, sadly most players arent competent. If we want to go into what amazing players are ultimately about, its ability to adapt into weird things happening around them. Reacting in smart way when sht hits the fan so to say. The questing, grinding, whatever to fill starting areas wont offer situations where said abilities could be trained.

Easy way to help create competent players is boosting FBs. Make it idiotic move to miss your FB, give good rewards for helpers too as long as they are on the level tier where they can get the BH, higher ones can gtfo. Give incentive to doing instances w/o high levels soloing them, doing instance once or twice teaches the basics of what the instance got to offer. My advice would be something useful that can be account stashed but is account bound(To lessen the abuse), making it incentive for higher level players to have alts to help newbies on proper level tier toons.

Add all FBs back to culti chain and dont let enter to higher level instances w/o certain cultivation. Heck, lock FC from all under the culti, which gives you your ultis all I care. Said changes should create variety in things for players do to help them get better in different situations.

I want to address one last thing. "Only power levelers are against this restriction cause they get something out of it". While both sellers and buyers get something out of it, it would also suggest players who are part of it somehow have better idea how it affects players skill level. I could also say "Only the ones who dont p.lvl anyways are against it", which would be likely quite true.

I got examples where people shouldnt of p.lvld and examples of players who were right to do it, my in game spouse p.lvld from 80+ or something and I would say she is plain better than nearly all players I`ve encountered, myself accounted. Its really, I believe, bout the attitude regarding gaming. If you are a gamer, competent minded, you are gonna be competent no matter which path of leveling you choose. If you are playing just for fun, dont care if you are competent, it doesnt matter if you take 10 years to level 100, you`re still likely worse than most "FC noobs". There is always exceptions but attitude regarding being good/competent plays massive role in players skill.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What information? What data?

Troll. Next.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I didnt intent to come with your camps motivations, of course i can. But that was not the issue. I just wanted to point out how you are trying to convince in a debate.

But because you insist ill give you some possible motivations for those on the anti hyper-level camp.

-Already having leveled so many alts that you dont want to level anymore yourself. Ending hypering will help maintain the gap between multitoon endgame players and those who still have to get there.

-Jealousy because they had to work hard in a long forgotten past to level their toon. Espescially those more casual players who dont have the ambition to have an army of alts may be hurt seeing others can get what they have so quickly now.

-Needing to find a scapegoat for their loss of joy in an aging game. I think many of us know the feeling that sometimes comes up "why am i spending all these hours on a game, only trying to get the best equipment until they introduce something new, i could be doing something usefull in with my life". Its a negative feeling linked to the boredom that comes with playing a game for a long time. Yet, you have "invested" so much time and/or money in the game you dont want to step away from it. So you start finding scapegoats and blame people and things for everything that is wrong with the game.


Indeed. No data either, no proof. But you asked for it. This is how you prefer to debate. With that i end my short visit to this thread again. Good luck with the rest of your "debate'.

LOL! That is a serious reach my friend. You seem to be projecting your own bitterness. You may not notice it but I'm sure most of the people reading these threads can notice that it is not we who are bitter and complaining about how the game's not fun. I'm having a great time. And I want to keep having a great time.

Your speculation about our motivation is creative, even as it lacks credibility. Having to reach into our minds to see something not there is a very convenient tool, as long as you don't care that people can see right though you. Otoh, the motivations I mentioned are explicitly stated over and over by your like-minded friends, throughout the threads. I don't have to make them up. I can go read them.

Nice apples dude but they're not oranges.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

-Already having leveled so many alts that you dont want to level anymore yourself. Ending hypering will help maintain the gap between multitoon endgame players and those who still have to get there.

-Jealousy because they had to work hard in a long forgotten past to level their toon. Espescially those more casual players who dont have the ambition to have an army of alts may be hurt seeing others can get what they have so quickly now.

Thank you for highlighting such a patently absurd line of thinking. So jealousy and a deliberate wish to stifle others are what you think drives us, eh? Wow, with preconceived notions like that, who needs silly things like rational thought?

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

-Needing to find a scapegoat for their loss of joy in an aging game. I think many of us know the feeling that sometimes comes up "why am i spending all these hours on a game, only trying to get the best equipment until they introduce something new, i could be doing something usefull in with my life". Its a negative feeling linked to the boredom that comes with playing a game for a long time. Yet, you have "invested" so much time and/or money in the game you dont want to step away from it. So you start finding scapegoats and blame people and things for everything that is wrong with the game.

So what do you consider the difference between a scapegoat and a legitimate cause of problems, then? Whose opinion are we operating under here? You could say I'm scapegoating just as easily as I could say that you (or any given powerleveler, seeing as I don't know if you plvl or not) are dodging accountability for your contributions to the problem. But I kind of thought we were above that level, here.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Glad you guys freak out so much.

Indeed. No data either, no proof. But you asked for it. This is how you prefer to debate. With that i end my short visit to this thread again. Good luck with the rest of your "debate'.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Glad you guys freak out so much.

LOL! And you, my friend, make up too much stuff out of whole cloth. No freaking out going on, other than in the fantasy you've just created. I enjoy good debate. And I enjoy this one, too, to an extent.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...
LOL. I'm waiting for actual data, especially data manifested from people in game.
...

A few problems with that.
1. Data collection. I mean, it's not like you can post a poll inside the game.
You could do it manually, but that's a lot of time and effort for one person. You would need a team of non-biased participants to collect the data and sort through it all.

2. There are more reliable ways to collect said data. Which is where the forum comes into play. You know, the actual hard data that you keep ignoring and making up this "silent majority" for just because you don't agree and didn't bother to participate.

So, for the "Data" that you choose to openly ignore, I will present it once again.

1. The Poll, that preceded this one. (And is the reason this one is limited in choices.)

2. The responses regarding the week we had with China's version of FCC that restricted the user of hypers in the instance.

3. The continued discussion on the topic, that led to me finally putting this plan into action.

You have yet to bring any hard data to the table. The same goes for the minority that oppose this movement.
If you would like, I can waste more of my free time not playing and pulling more hard facts up that would support what I've been saying.

If you've got anything less vague than your silent majority, or WannaBM's off-on-a-tangent political rants, I'm happy to hear it. So far you guys have been mostly noise distracting from the actual discussion though.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Glad you guys freak out so much.

And they want to be taken seriously by the community. b:chuckle

They go so far out of their way to make walls and walls of posts, tell people to leave topics, and in melodramatic fashion block people (or pretend to block people with these dramatic posts advocating others to block) who argue with them.

They can make polls in a forum and disregard the demographic of people voting vs. demographic of people playing, but won't put out the effort to gauge what goes on in the game (in statistics, your statistical population is supposed to be directly relevant to the targeted outcome to get a better (more specifically, accurate) understanding of wants -- this is how it works in business and politics alike with marketing and research), a far easier (and less convenient, of course, hence why they ignore the in-game populace in repeated fashion) thing to determine if one plays it or has PWI data concerning who uses hypers in FF under level 75.

We all know the vast majority of players already voted over the years by how they play (PWI catered to endgame by putting in hypers, oracles, etc. and the playing populace obliged), which is why these few vocal nostalgic malcontents wish to repeatedly make polls and posts changing the way the populace plays. If their position was so advantageous in numbers it would be grossly evident and manifested in-game by people questing throughout the map, but those of us who aren't trying to embellish forum polls and know how to observe how others play (it helps when leveling a small army of toons) know very well what the populace does in game.

The most entertaining aspect of this is attempts to shut people up and how personal some take strong criticism of their ideas and positions (especially a few posters' long held positions on the subject which are relevant to this discussion) -- notably this notion that the few forum voters already decided for the playing populace (who evidently vastly outnumber the playing populace or comprise of the playing populace -- game would be beyond dead if this is the case) and that this discussion is over because a past poll was made (despite the fact that the statement-making players in game are still plvling in FF). I love it. b:laugh

Miugre - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

They go so far out of their way to make walls and walls of posts, tell people to leave topics, and in melodramatic fashion block people (or pretend to block people with these dramatic posts advocating others to block) who argue with them.

They can make polls in a forum and disregard the demographic of people voting vs. demographic of people playing, but won't put out the effort to gauge what goes on in the game (in statistics, your statistical population is supposed to be directly relevant to the targeted outcome to get a better (more specifically, accurate) understanding of wants -- this is how it works in business and politics alike with marketing and research), a far easier (and less convenient, of course, hence why they ignore the in-game populace in repeated fashion) thing to determine if one plays it or has PWI data concerning who uses hypers in FF under level 75.

We all know the vast majority of players already voted over the years by how they play (PWI catered to endgame by putting in hypers, oracles, etc. and the playing populace obliged), which is why these few vocal nostalgic malcontents wish to repeatedly make polls and posts changing the way the populace plays. If their position was so advantageous in numbers it would be grossly evident and manifested in-game by people questing throughout the map, but those of us who aren't trying to embellish forum polls and know how to observe how others play (it helps when leveling a small army of toons) know very well what the populace does in game.

The most entertaining aspect of this is attempts to shut people up and how personal some take strong criticism of their ideas and positions (especially a few posters' long held positions on the subject which are relevant to this discussion) -- notably this notion that the few forum voters already decided for the playing populace (who evidently vastly outnumber the playing populace or comprise of the playing populace -- game would be beyond dead if this is the case) and that this discussion is over because a past poll was made (despite the fact that the statement-making players in game are still plvling in FF). I love it. b:laugh

You've been told a million times that this isn't the debate. Go make a thread against FF malcontents if you're that motivated. The only difference between now and 30-40 pages ago is rather than jumping on us, you just piggyback off of anyone who makes even a one-line post in support of your position with another wall-o-text that just says "LOL IKR?"

ovenusarmanio

If the upcoming reincarnation system works the way it appears to, this would be an awesome time to do this. Maybe they could also revamp the caves for rewards worthy of the reincarnation both in difficulty and rewards. DK seems like a good way to blend in the old and new and get some more content overlap going.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And they want to be taken seriously by the community. b:chuckle

They go so far out of their way to make walls and walls of posts, tell people to leave topics, and in melodramatic fashion block people (or pretend to block people with these dramatic posts advocating others to block) who argue with them.

They can make polls in a forum and disregard the demographic of people voting vs. demographic of people playing, but won't put out the effort to gauge what goes on in the game (in statistics, your statistical population is supposed to be directly relevant to the targeted outcome to get a better (more specifically, accurate) understanding of wants -- this is how it works in business and politics alike with marketing and research), a far easier (and less convenient, of course, hence why they ignore the in-game populace in repeated fashion) thing to determine if one plays it or has PWI data concerning who uses hypers in FF under level 75.

We all know the vast majority of players already voted over the years by how they play (PWI catered to endgame by putting in hypers, oracles, etc. and the playing populace obliged), which is why these few vocal nostalgic malcontents wish to repeatedly make polls and posts changing the way the populace plays. If their position was so advantageous in numbers it would be grossly evident and manifested in-game by people questing throughout the map, but those of us who aren't trying to embellish forum polls and know how to observe how others play (it helps when leveling a small army of toons) know very well what the populace does in game.

The most entertaining aspect of this is attempts to shut people up and how personal some take strong criticism of their ideas and positions (especially a few posters' long held positions on the subject which are relevant to this discussion) -- notably this notion that the few forum voters already decided for the playing populace (who evidently vastly outnumber the playing populace or comprise of the playing populace -- game would be beyond dead if this is the case) and that this discussion is over because a past poll was made (despite the fact that the statement-making players in game are still plvling in FF). I love it. b:laugh

I've seen enough of your posts to know that you're smarter than this post. You present evidence you know is a non sequitur (the vast majority of players already voted over the years by how they play) but you're willing to go with it because it burdens the other side to refute. I'm sure you already realize that claiming votes not cast, based on your inference of the meaning of their actions is poor logic at best, dishonest at worst. Where you don't apply fallacious logic, you simply sneer and ridicule in an ad hominem distraction from the weakness of your argument.

I sense that you enjoy a nasty fight and are determined to make this personal. While I have little doubt that you recognize your arguments are contrived, I'm not sure you realize that most people see through this. You will always be able to make make hearts flutter among those who support your side and get off on seeing you call the other side a bunch of poopy-heads or whatever other intellectually stimulating description comes to mind, but for people who are able to actually evaluate the merits of the discussion, I don't believe you're moving the ball forward.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

If the upcoming reincarnation system works the way it appears to, this would be an awesome time to do this. Maybe they could also revamp the caves for rewards worthy of the reincarnation both in difficulty and rewards. DK seems like a good way to blend in the old and new and get some more content overlap going.

Meanwhile people will use Lucid xp items, brainpowers, merit badges, morai xp items, etc.. to insta-lvl to 80-100.

Sounds like they sure care to enjoy the lower levels huh?

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

I've seen enough of your posts to know that you're smarter than this post. You present evidence you know is a non sequitur (the vast majority of players already voted over the years by how they play) but you're willing to go with it because it burdens the other side to refute. I'm sure you already realize that claiming votes not cast, based on your inference of the meaning of their actions is poor logic at best, dishonest at worst. Where you don't apply fallacious logic, you simply sneer and ridicule in an ad hominem distraction from the weakness of your argument.

I sense that you enjoy a nasty fight and are determined to make this personal. While I have little doubt that you recognize your arguments are contrived, I'm not sure you realize that most people see through this. You will always be able to make make hearts flutter among those who support your side and get off on seeing you call the other side a bunch of poopy-heads or whatever other intellectually stimulating description comes to mind, but for people who are able to actually evaluate the merits of the discussion, I don't believe you're moving the ball forward.

- Never called people "poopy heads", misapplied ad hominem reference, I've stuck to attacking the premise of this discussion and the background of the people who keep insinuating that messing with FF or hypers or going back to days people are nostalgic for will "save the game".
- Meaning of actions is irrelevant, either they hyper powerlevel or they don't.. the VAST majority of players who started beyond 2009 hyper powerleveled, it's not even close..
- In what way have you thought that I seek out support for something? I've not sat there and campaigned for anything at all pertaining to this -- I don't need to start poll, try to silence dissent, or sway people's opinions in a certain direction. I've consistently stated my opinions, and spoken for the people too busy solely playing (or lurking the forums) to care about this relentless QQ. Speaking of fallacies, keeping opinions to those who agree with you and making game-changing ideas based on forum preference is a terrible one-sided idea.. it would be like suggesting PWI's boutique be catered to posts on the forum with this re-imagined idea of what the PWI boutique is without regard to what people actually purchase in game.
- That I've not evaluated the merits of the premise surrounding this topic is wrong. This is consistently stated by people who either can't/refuse to read dissenting posts (there are quite a few in this thread) or simply think dismissing an argument as something else will render that argument moot.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Meanwhile people will use Lucid xp items, brainpowers, merit badges, morai xp items, etc.. to insta-lvl to 80-100.

Sounds like they sure care to enjoy the lower levels huh?

Your conclusion is another extrapolated interpretation.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

- Never called people "poopy heads",

Boring. You again know what was meant but you choose to go literal in a response you know is invalid to my intent.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

misapplied ad hominem reference, I've stuck to attacking the premise of this discussion and the background of the people who keep insinuating that messing with FF or hypers or going back to days people are nostalgic for will "save the game".

Attacking the background and motives of people is ad hominem.
"nostalgic malcontents" fore example is clearly ad hominem.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

- Meaning of actions is irrelevant

Misquote. Not what I said. Ignored.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

either they hyper powerlevel or they don't.. the VAST majority of players who started beyond 2009 hyper powerleveled, it's not even close..

Weren't you the one demanding hard evidence, earlier?
I know of a good number of people who didn't powerlevel but left the game because of they felt left behind by people they started with. I know of a lot of people who have used hypers and have even FC'ed who don't agree with your position. So tell me again why those count as having agreed with your opnions, based solely on the fact that their actions have included use of hypers.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

- In what way have you thought that I seek out support for something? I've not sat there and campaigned for anything at all pertaining to this -- I don't need to start poll, try to silence dissent, or sway people's opinions in a certain direction.

You already know the answer to this one, too. In response to actual people who actually spoke up and were actually counted, you have sought to claim an army of supporters (Preemption: I will not bother to respond to challenges to my semantics) who have not spoken on the issue but supposedly support you because of some act they committed, not knowing that it supposedly cast their vote.

Nobody tried to silence dissent and that pejorative fails to make any relevant point. Polls are not unethical or invalid as measures of public opinion.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I've consistently stated my opinions, and spoken for the people too busy solely playing (or lurking the forums) to care about this relentless QQ.

So you're like the nurse who gets absentee ballots for the comatose patients and fills them in with the candidate of your choice ....... for them, of course. Sounds legit.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Speaking of fallacies, keeping opinions to those who agree with you and making game-changing ideas based on forum preference is a terrible one-sided idea..

Do you really want to go with that argument? Really? It's a bad idea to listen as people speak out their preferences? Every idea in which one side holds the majority is one-sided. You can't decide on FC, bi-directionally. It's logical nonsense.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

it would be like suggesting PWI's boutique be catered to posts on the forum with this re-imagined idea of what the PWI boutique is without regard to what people actually purchase in game.

No it wouldn't. It would be like players suggesting what they would like changed about the Boutique and PWI actually considering the merits and practicality of their suggestions. Doesn't sound all that nefarious to me.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

- That I've not evaluated the merits of the premise surrounding this topic is wrong. This is consistently stated by people who either can't/refuse to read dissenting posts (there are quite a few in this thread) or simply think dismissing an argument as something else will render that argument moot.

Did it feel good to knock down that strawman? I suggested that you haven't evaluated anything but if it feels good and it gives you the opportunity to another personal poke at your opponents (I'll be you don't really believe they can't read dissent posts, do you?), go there.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

If the upcoming reincarnation system works the way it appears to, this would be an awesome time to do this. Maybe they could also revamp the caves for rewards worthy of the reincarnation both in difficulty and rewards. DK seems like a good way to blend in the old and new and get some more content overlap going.

I agree. And with the original devs coming back, it looks like a great amount of new content will be added to help draw new players, and return old players that have since left.

Also, I see Janus is back again with his "silent majority".
I love in your quote GlenRoss, where he says "I've consistently stated my opinions, and spoken for the people too busy solely playing (or lurking the forums) to care about this relentless QQ."

How naive do you have to be to automatically assume that the 90% of people playing the game and not visiting the forum automatically agree with you?

The people who care, are usually visiting the forums occasionally. They voted, that poll is done. We've moved on. Who's nostalgic here?

_Kimchi_ - Lost City

First of all, I want to say that I agree with the notion of reviving low-level play in Perfect World. It seems that the majority of players in the game are old veterans who have been here for years and I hardly ever see new players roaming the map these days. However, while I agree that putting a level restriction on FF would be a step in the right direction for PW, I don't believe that this change alone would be enough to revive the low-level game. I think that there would need to be some other fairly significant changes made in order to encourage new players to start coming in.

Firstly, something would need to be done about the grinding aspect of PW. One of the main reasons people choose to power-level is because the low-level questing in the game is so boring and repetitive. Literally, most of it just involves "talk to NPC, kill x mobs, return to NPC" (while some people may enjoy that, a lot of people get bored of it rather quickly). I'm not saying that this content should be completely removed from Perfect World. A certain amount of grinding is okay. It's just that, if there isn't much more to leveling in a game, progressing can feel like more of a chore than an enjoyable activity. I speak from personal experience because, out of the group of six friends whom I originally started playing the game with, I was the only one who stuck with it for more than a few weeks (and even I used FF quite a bit to escape the grind).

Another problem I've noticed is how long it takes to travel from one place to another. The player's movement speed is so slow and the distances are so large that traveling from one city to another can be a rather daunting task for a new player. I remember when my friends and I first started playing PW, the travel times became a major deterrent for us. Although the game's environment is really quite amazing and varied (I would say that it's one of game's major strong suits), there comes a point where you just want to get to your destination rather than spend twenty minutes walking or flying there. In addition, I've always found PW's teleportation system a little odd. Even once you start unlocking portals, you still can't move directly from one place to another. Instead, you are forced to portal hop, sometimes three or more times, in order to reach your destination. Why not simply allow the player to travel directly from one portal another anywhere in the world? It's things like this that could really step up the pace of the game and make parts of it feel less monotonous.

So far, I haven't even mentioned the cash shop problem in Perfect World, and (in my mind) this is probably the game's biggest flaw. Now, I realize that PWE requires the cash shop in order to make a profit (since the game is technically F2P). However, the money aspect has become far too great of a factor in this game. For example, if you look through the news feed from the last several years, nearly every single post has something to do with the cash shop (whether through sales, new items, or other cash shop related content). Only a very small percentage of it relates to actual in-game content or updates. This sends a very strong and negative message to any prospective or current player. What it says to me personally is that PWE isn't putting much effort at all into the game itself and that the people in charge only care about one thing - squeezing as much money as possible from its current player base.

This message has been further reinforced through my time spent playing the game. Over the past year or two, any content updates I've seen have been extremely few and far apart (never a good thing for any MMORPG). If PWE was really serious about reviving the game, they would need to start making a serious effort towards engaging the community and listening to their suggestions. Also the developers would really need to step up the in-game updates and work on fixing all the things that are wrong with the game instead of only focusing on changes relating to the cash shop.

This cash shop issue also has a very negative impact on people who simply want to play the game for fun without spending hundreds or thousands of real dollars on it (most people). There isn't really much incentive for a player to spend literally years working on a character when a player next to him/her can achieve endgame with their wallet in just a matter of days. As a new player, if I had known that endgame gear was worth equivalently the same amount of money as a real-life car, I highly doubt I would have continued to play. I remember the first time I heard that some people actually sink that much money into the game, I thought it was a joke and was shocked to realize that it wasn't.

For me, it's been really sad to watch Perfect World fall from its prime into this state over the years. Only a relatively small handful of people still play now, and a lot of them are only here because they don't want to leave old guilds, friends, etc. This game has the potential to be something great, if only the developers would put more effort into fixing it and keeping it up-to-date and less effort into wringing money out of its players. If they did that, I guarantee new people would come in swarms and, in the end, PWE would most likely be much better off because of it.

Anyway, these are just some of the things that I think would need to be done in order to revive the game (besides simply putting a level restriction on FF). I'm sure many of these things have been said before, though, without any response from PWE so I'm probably just wasting my time here. And feel free to comment or disagree on what I've said.

EDIT: For some reason my avatar says this character is level 90 even though it's level 101. Glitch?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

Attacking the background and motives of people is ad hominem.
"nostalgic malcontents" fore example is clearly ad hominem.

No it's not. Attacking a party's background, as in, their history of posts and what they do in game is not ad hominem, those are things that directly correlate with their ability to logically discern a problem, versus being a hypocrite or simply having an axe to grind.

You just wish to take an objective method of criticism off the table, for whatever your own reasons are.

Weren't you the one demanding hard evidence, earlier?
I know of a good number of people who didn't powerlevel but left the game because of they felt left behind by people they started with. I know of a lot of people who have used hypers and have even FC'ed who don't agree with your position. So tell me again why those count as having agreed with your opnions, based solely on the fact that their actions have included use of hypers.

The only evidence of what goes on in game comes from in-game. The forums have clearly been residence for a specific demographic of this game, one which I've criticized since Day 1.

You already know the answer to this one, too. In response to actual people who actually spoke up and were actually counted, you have sought to claim an army of supporters (Preemption: I will not bother to respond to challenges to my semantics) who have not spoken on the issue but supposedly support you because of some act they committed, not knowing that it supposedly cast their vote.

"Claimed an army of supporters" -- made up dog ****. I don't need supporters, play the game and find out how people play yourself. It doesn't take much observation or even much effort to come to the elementary conclusion that the vast majority of players in this game powerleveled their toons, a higher prevalence of those who played after hyper came out. That is called speaking by actions.

Another synonymous rant to this -- some posters cash shop their gear, then come to the forums and QQ about others being able to attain the same gear for cheaper. Sure, they came to the forums and say one thing, however, they already spoke by the way they played.

Nobody tried to silence dissent and that pejorative fails to make any relevant point. Polls are not unethical or invalid as measures of public opinion.

Telling people to leave the topic if they dissent with the premise of the topic is trying to silence dissent. Next time read the topic, this was rife throughout the first multitude of pages, and even up to a few pages ago where vanflywhatever yet again told me to leave. Your inability to read isn't my problem.

Do you really want to go with that argument? Really? It's a bad idea to listen as people speak out their preferences? Every idea in which one side holds the majority is one-sided. You can't decide on FC, bi-directionally. It's logical nonsense.

If the opinion were merely stated that this small group wants to change FF and hypers for the rest of the population, I would dismiss this and make nothing of it. OTOH, this group is blowing up the "support" they have, which is FAR smaller than they make it. Then, they want to say that people aren't hyper powerleveling their toons?

LOL

Logic defeats this one pretty quickly. If people had played the way these people describe, they'd not have any reason to try and ban lower levels from hypers/FF, right? It wouldn't be that common obviously. Yet here we are.. trying to tell Janus and convince some other forum malcontents (to prop up as the rest of the population) the sky is yellow.

This is a not-so-clever campaign by a few posters who believe they have all the answers to this game's woes and that it's somehow realistic or consistent with the way Wanmei, or this playerbase, has done things, and they have to reach very far to come to these conclusions and try to make it seem logical. You're on another plane of reality that can't be muddled by campaigning efforts. Try hiring a marketing firm to market this, you'd be much more successful, they know how to word things a little more convincingly.

No it wouldn't. It would be like players suggesting what they would like changed about the Boutique and PWI actually considering the merits and practicality of their suggestions. Doesn't sound all that nefarious to me.

Merits and practicality be damned.

Businesses' bottom line is money, and if the players that bring them money are hyper powerleveling their mains and alts, that's who they cater to. Guess what's happened for the last nearly 4 years? Hmm, I wonder..

Did it feel good to knock down that strawman? I suggested that you haven't evaluated anything but if it feels good and it gives you the opportunity to another personal poke at your opponents (I'll be you don't really believe they can't read dissent posts, do you?), go there.

They choose not to, which is why my posts get poo-poo'd off as having no topic related content. Ignoring the game population that overwhelmingly speaks by the way it plays isn't logical, it's not even on target as to what the problem is and what will "save this game" (which is really a misnomer that doesn't take into account the probability of bringing back / bringing any significant population using PWI's microtransaction profit model and their historical way of running this game). If this to you is a personal attack, you should probably seek introspective help for this embellished sensitivity.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

_Kimchi_ - Lost City wrote: »

...For me, it's been really sad to watch Perfect World fall from its prime into this state over the years. Only a relatively small handful of people still play now, and a lot of them are only here because they don't want to leave old guilds, friends, etc. This game has the potential to be something great, if only the developers would put more effort into fixing it and keeping it up-to-date and less effort into wringing money out of its players. If they did that, I guarantee new people would come in swarms and, in the end, PWE would most likely be much better off because of it.

...

EDIT: For some reason my avatar says this character is level 90 even though it's level 101. Glitch?

You've grasped it in a nutshell. After a couple of years analyzing the decline, collecting data, and listening to the valid responses from the player community, that is exactly why I have started this movement.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...They choose not to, which is why my posts get poo-poo'd off as having no topic related content. Ignoring the game population that overwhelmingly speaks by the way it plays isn't logical, it's not even on target as to what the problem is and what will "save this game" (which is really a misnomer that doesn't take into account the probability of bringing back / bringing any significant population using PWI's microtransaction profit model and their historical way of running this game). If this to you is a personal attack, you should probably seek introspective help for this embellished sensitivity.

Out of all of your misconceptions, this one is the funniest.

Basically, you're saying that because you see a lot of people hyper leveling alts, that they are against this automatically by default and constitute a majority.

By the same note, because I drive a Dart, and I see more Darts on the road than I see of the other variety of cars, then the majority of people must drive Darts.

If you can't see the stupidity of that statement...
Oh, no, that would explain the majority of your posts, and your reasoning that has no substantial background data.

You are also incorrect in saying, "which is really a misnomer that doesn't take into account the probability of bringing back / bringing any significant population using PWI's microtransaction profit model and their historical way of running this game".

You seem to fail to understand that this is merely one step of several to set the game back on a path that will restore the population and better the community. Part of that would be bringing back old players that had left.

mofoisuisay

In my opinion any changes to the level requirement or hyper's in FC is now 2 years to late it should have been done prior to the Earth Guard Patch, it seems that this is when the birth of the " FC baby " came into the game.

Changing it now will only ( maybe ) get the current PWI community up in arms and anyone who recently started to play as they will want same benefits as everyone else had, and that's to level up fast, game play is game play but as per most games if things get to hard or to expensive to do people quit and that's not what everyone wants.

If your going to limit hyper's / FC then maybe you should also look at the current number of R9 players vr's the people that don't " pay to play ".. this also has an impact on game play specially in Nation Wars etc ! The recent change of the Map back to the smaller one has made it near impossible for anyone non R8/T3 to get in and have some fun and acquire tokens with out getting ganked by SP killing R9's , part of the game i know...but what chance do we/they have ? ( the people that disagree are you that have alts sitting in there )

Wouldn't it be nice to have people back in secret passage looking for BH29 squads, seeing people actually run BH39-69 with just squads of the levels that have the actual BH without help from a lvl 105 or 3, while it's faster, again it's not game play following them and picking up the odd coin here and there. The lack of lower lvl gears in AH is the direct result of the amount of BH's not being run as peeps are in FC buying heads, Maybe BAN the SALE of heads !!!!!

The game has changed from a game that was once free to play ( and still is ) have some fun killing mobs doing some quests with friends to a game that has basically gone " MASTERCARD " or gtfo you nab your gears suck , as we all see in WC so many times.

Too many things have changed, to many R9 sales , pack sales and sales in general i think, seems there were way more people having fun in their TT90/TT99/R8 before PWI got greedy and needed to fill the coin Vaults to the point of bursting.

If you can become 101 in 3 weeks then say get your R9R3+10 in 3 weeks, then your on WC " bored 101 LF something to do " directly the week after, they are also the same person that run's out to buy the new PlayStation and games, runs home to download the cheats, be done with a game and sell it back to the game swap shop @ 10 % of the cost 3 days later, cause they got bored. The game doesn't need these people, it needs stayers, you only like them cause they spend 2k RL $$ in 6 weeks and then what ? there gone.



That's my 50 cents worth haters will hate. b:chuckle

mofoisuisay

P.S ,,


Would also be nice if PWI put fairy boxes back into solo FC..b:angry,

made the badges and molds from Lunar and Warsong " tradeable " b:victory

and does all the FREE stuff have to be timed ? whats the point , at least the lucid fashion could be perma, non tradeable !! b:victory

everyone has a wish list b:laugh

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

mofoisuisay wrote: »

In my opinion any changes to the level requirement or hyper's in FC is now 2 years to late it should have been done prior to the Earth Guard Patch, it seems that this is when the birth of the " FC baby " came into the game.

Actually more like 3.5 years too late, but I agree with the rest of your post.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No it's not. Attacking a party's background, as in, their history of posts and what they do in game is not ad hominem, those are things that directly correlate with their ability to logically discern a problem, versus being a hypocrite or simply having an axe to grind.

You just wish to take an objective method of criticism off the table, for whatever your own reasons are.

Failed rationalization. Let's do a quick grammar exercise, shall we? "malcontent" describes what? Background? Or the person? If you try to shoehorn it to the latter, explain how a background is a malcontent. Let's dispense with reinventing the language, shall we?

And while we're at it, let's dispense with the redirection of focus. What my reasons are is an irrelevant suggestion that my motives are other than stated. That's cheesy, cheap and ineffective.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The only evidence of what goes on in game comes from in-game.

There was never a debate about "what goes on in game". Irrelevant.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The forums have clearly been residence for a specific demographic of this game, one which I've criticized since Day 1.

In other words, the only spoken evidence of the opinions of the players should be dismissed because it trends against what you've decided the majority thinks. Nice circular reasoning.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

"Claimed an army of supporters" -- made up dog ****. I don't need supporters, play the game and find out how people play yourself. It doesn't take much observation or even much effort to come to the elementary conclusion that the vast majority of players in this game powerleveled their toons, a higher prevalence of those who played after hyper came out. That is called speaking by actions.

Repeating empty claims that the majority agrees with you is still not evidence.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Another synonymous rant to this -- some posters cash shop their gear, then come to the forums and QQ about others being able to attain the same gear for cheaper. Sure, they came to the forums and say one thing, however, they already spoke by the way they played.

Your anecdotal observations are still just extrapolation and biased interpretation. You're still trying to trump all evidence with your own flawed intuition.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Telling people to leave the topic if they dissent with the premise of the topic is trying to silence dissent. Next time read the topic, this was rife throughout the first multitude of pages, and even up to a few pages ago where vanflywhatever yet again told me to leave. Your inability to read isn't my problem.

LOL at your weak attempt to assert intellectual superiority and to provoke with insult. Boo hoo. Somebody was mean to you? That's relevant. LOL.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If the opinion were merely stated that this small group wants to change FF and hypers for the rest of the population, I would dismiss this and make nothing of it. OTOH, this group is blowing up the "support" they have, which is FAR smaller than they make it. Then, they want to say that people aren't hyper powerleveling their toons?

LOL

Logic defeats this one pretty quickly. If people had played the way these people describe, they'd not have any reason to try and ban lower levels from hypers/FF, right? It wouldn't be that common obviously. Yet here we are.. trying to tell Janus and convince some other forum malcontents (to prop up as the rest of the population) the sky is yellow.

This is a not-so-clever campaign by a few posters who believe they have all the answers to this game's woes and that it's somehow realistic or consistent with the way Wanmei, or this playerbase, has done things, and they have to reach very far to come to these conclusions and try to make it seem logical. You're on another plane of reality that can't be muddled by campaigning efforts. Try hiring a marketing firm to market this, you'd be much more successful, they know how to word things a little more convincingly.


Merits and practicality be damned.

Businesses' bottom line is money, and if the players that bring them money are hyper powerleveling their mains and alts, that's who they cater to. Guess what's happened for the last nearly 4 years? Hmm, I wonder..


They choose not to, which is why my posts get poo-poo'd off as having no topic related content. Ignoring the game population that overwhelmingly speaks by the way it plays isn't logical, it's not even on target as to what the problem is and what will "save this game" (which is really a misnomer that doesn't take into account the probability of bringing back / bringing any significant population using PWI's microtransaction profit model and their historical way of running this game). If this to you is a personal attack, you should probably seek introspective help for this embellished sensitivity.

Waste of time. Just another content-free, "I'm right, lack of evidence be ####ed." Bring something more to the table than just blowing raspberries. People see through you.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

Failed rationalization. Let's do a quick grammar exercise, shall we? "malcontent" describes what? Background? Or the person? If you try to shoehorn it to the latter, explain how a background is a malcontent. Let's dispense with reinventing the language, shall we?

That's not a grammar exercise, unless you're quizzing me on how many commas and periods I use associated with "malcontent".

There was never a debate about "what goes on in game". Irrelevant.

Right, we're talking about FF and hypers in real life, or on the forums, since you can hyper FF on the forums. Genius. b:laugh

In other words, the only spoken evidence of the opinions of the players should be dismissed because it trends against what you've decided the majority thinks. Nice circular reasoning.

If the majority sided with the premise that people need to experience low level content, people would be experiencing it and there'd be no reason for QQthread would there? Derp.

Repeating empty claims that the majority agrees with you is still not evidence.

Disregarding people who play the game and solely focus on a forum poll that very few even care to visit never mind vote on polls/post on, is still not evidence.

Your anecdotal observations are still just extrapolation and biased interpretation. You're still trying to trump all evidence with your own flawed intuition.

"All evidence" -- where again? Did someone poll people who are in the game? Can people who vote not vote on a multitude of accounts, or on a multitude of characters on the same account and skew a forum poll? Have the forums not always been populated by malcontents who don't like the direction the game is headed? You believe these polls represent those who are active in the game? b:chuckle

LOL at your weak attempt to assert intellectual superiority and to provoke with insult. Boo hoo. Somebody was mean to you? That's relevant. LOL.

LOL red herring.

Waste of time. Just another content-free, "I'm right, lack of evidence be ####ed." Bring something more to the table than just blowing raspberries. People see through you.

Ahhh, just another logic-free assertion that something is content-free, or substance-free, or [insertnonsensehere]-free. I take it you're done trying to debate the topic? For all this whining about ad hominem your post focuses 99% on me outside of this discussion. I think that's a clue that you've about run out of things worthwhile to discuss.

Esnemyl - Dreamweaver

mofoisuisay wrote: »

Wouldn't it be nice to have people back in secret passage looking for BH29 squads, seeing people actually run BH39-69 with just squads of the levels that have the actual BH without help from a lvl 105 or 3, while it's faster, again it's not game play following them and picking up the odd coin here and there. The lack of lower lvl gears in AH is the direct result of the amount of BH's not being run as peeps are in FC buying heads, Maybe BAN the SALE of heads !!!!!

Ah but you forgot the sale of full rooms too it seems? I dont think the banning of fc room sales is possible due to the fact the ToS isn't fully put upon the players these days. Blocking level 75 or lower folk can help fix this, and I agree with you with the activity of lower level bounty hunts making a full fledged return.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Esnemyl - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ah but you forgot the sale of full rooms too it seems? I dont think the banning of fc room sales is possible due to the fact the ToS isn't fully put upon the players these days. Blocking level 75 or lower folk can help fix this, and I agree with you with the activity of lower level bounty hunts making a full fledged return.

You know what would bring back lower BH's? Better rewards. People prefer to do BH100's not because of hyper or FF, but because there's such a disparity with so much more incentive being 100 than a lower level. This is how it's been since 2009, giving players more incentive to level faster and experience endgame.

Such is the will of Wanmei/PWE, and the player base, such is how it goes.

SonofAnarchy - Dreamweaver

I decided not to vote on the poll as I am in 2 minds as to whether it would help.

I started the month after game launch, starter cities were mobbed, lots of people playing, there was a camaraderie, that we were all embarking on this fantastic adventure and making friends to level with wasn't all that difficult. It was all about the journey. It took me 3 years to get my main toon to level 100 and it was fun all the way. Yeah sure it was a slog some times, they don't call it grinding for nothing but you still had a sense of achievement once you got there. I never set foot in a FC till I was 96.

Back then it was about the adventure, there was no packs, no FC, no BHs, people were WC wanting to help noobs with FBs for free. Gold was 140k and most things/gear was achievable if you put in the time and effort.

Then came FC and packs and lots of stuff in cash shop, gold at 2m+ on most servers and everything decent priced beyond the reach of the average gamer that either doesn't have credit cards or quite frankly doesn't want to spend the price of a family home on a F2P game. Everything is at a price now and most people don't have the cash to meet that price.

Its lost the spirit of the game, its all about the end game, the end gears, the Love up downs at 800m, the endless array of packs. Its become the Las Vegas of MMOs. We'd be just as well sitting playing bingo. Its not longer about the adventure, the journey and all about the destination.

Nerfing FC doesn't help that as it doesn't address what's really wrong with the game. Greed controls this game, people don't want to do anything for free anymore, no incentive to help the noobs other than for a price.

What the game lacks is NEW people coming to the game, new people don't know about FC, don't know about hypers or power levelling, all that restricting FC will achieve is making starting cities even more desolate as no new ALTS will be created afterall not many high end players want to go back to taking 3 years to level a player because its all about the destination.

I feel this is hugely down to PWE, they cater too much to the end game achievers, the cash players, there is little or no incentive for new players to come here and less and less incentive for non cash players to stay other than habit or long standing friendships.

Look at the game list up top of website and count how many titles are in there, back when I started this was the flagship game in with around 1 or 2 other games still in beta. Now PWI is 4th in a list of 15 titles, one of which is based on a popular SCIFI movie/tv franchise. What entices any new player to pick PWI over the other titles?

Looking at the even bigger picture PC/Laptop sales are in rapid decline, have been since the advent of netbooks/tablets. I work in I.T sales and very few people buy new laptops and even less desktops which is rapidly becoming obsolete outside of business purchases. Everything is tablets and smartphones now. Why hasn't PWE/PWI invested in this area? Oh hold on 1 recently released trading card game. Well that is pretty late to an over saturated party. Even the leading MMO has a mobile companion app in the works after they lost 10% (around 800k) of their player base in as many months.

There are too many things to address I fear in effort to stem/stop the decline and lots of it outwith the makers control but they could start with better marketing/advertising outwith Facebook, better instances for low levels with better rewards, high level instances non soloable so people team up more, rewards for mentoring low levels (restricted by IP address so people don't get rewarded for helping Alts) Mobile companion apps that link to the game in some way, less cash shop items, tackling inflation (long over due) restricting packs. You need to have something in place that entices NEW people and nerfing FC isn't going to do it. It needs to stop being about the destination and more about the journey again.

But then if you think PWI is anything but an afterthought you'd be silly really!

Selak - Dreamweaver

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You know what would bring back lower BH's? Better rewards. People prefer to do BH100's not because of hyper or FF, but because there's such a disparity with so much more incentive being 100 than a lower level. This is how it's been since 2009, giving players more incentive to level faster and experience endgame.

Such is the will of Wanmei/PWE, and the player base, such is how it goes.

The will of the remaining player base is a better statement JanusZeal and this is certainly does not represent the will of the potential or past player base which is the group whose opinions you seem to dismiss as not important and yet are so sorely needed to repopulate the servers.

This is the reason some of us object to your biased posts.

A simple suggestion that has been dismissed many times such as wider media exposure is an example of one way to improve this games player base.
Here in Australia the game is never mentioned in PC gaming shows on TV, why god knows but it would gain players instantly.

Most of the people asking for small in-game or out of game changes are not doing this to disadvantage the remaining player base but with the aim of repopulating the servers so we all have more friends to play with therefore more fun.

Some constructive suggestions from someone who seems to know this game such as yourself, would go a lot further towards your credibility, rather that just criticism about current suggestions for improved game play and player retention rates without real justification.

In simple terms the player base, who does not play this game, is bigger that the group who do,
therefore if you want the game to grow then logicaly you want their opinions more than the current player base.

Think about it please.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

Janus I'm bored with the handwaving, rationalization and misdirection.

Simply this: Evidence has been presented of the mood of the players. No counter-evidence has been presented, just one man's claim that it's out there somewhere.

Show it or all you have is a rant. The ball's in your court. ("Nuh-uh" will not suffice as an effective rebuttal.)

Done wasting time with this silliness. I'm satisfied that people can see the difference in the two sides of the argument.