Disable hypers in frost, yes, no or LV restricted? FORGOTTEN THREAD

Miugre - Heavens Tear

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

how do you deduce that? I could just know that killing mobs one by one hardly teaches you anything besides spamming F1

Sure, if you want to be lazy (gee, what does that sound like?). But the beauty of killing world mobs is that they're essentially a freestyle canvas for skill practicing. Is killing one mob boring? Kill two at once, or three, or three and that one behind you that just spawned and stunned you. Still too boring? Find someone to team up with, use some on-the-fly team strategies against groups, hell, start a mini zhen if you want. An auto-attack masher in quests is going to be an auto-attack masher at endgame, too.

All I'm saying is, if you're going to write off a whole chunk of game content which just so happens to take up a vast majority of the world map and low and midlevel activities as "not really playing," I'm gonna have to ask you to back that up. Last I checked, the game didn't start at Lv100.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ultimately there is a limit to what PvE can teach you and 95% of it goes out the window when you enter the world of PvP.

In my opinion flame me if you want but the optimal scenario is fc hyper with a bunch of friends rolling a bunch of different toons and in between go in PK mode go to random spot in world map and duke it out all day. Try out all your new skills as you learn them see what works what combos are good learn about each others classes blah blah. Do the PvE instances like BHs which should be a piece of cake fighting a mob with practically zero AI.

Hypering fc is fine. Spam killing mobs all day teaches you nothing, doing 'quests' aka spam kill mobs teaches you nothing.

PvP is the endgame, PvE is just a means to get there.

Joining PWI for the PVP is like buying a cake for the tasteless bargain-bin icing on top of it. What do you think that huge world map with all the mobs is for? Pretty sure it's not PVP-related. I'm also pretty sure that it took a hell of a lot more time to design and code than slapping another 10 or 20 attack levels on the broken gear du jour every six months.

PVP certainly has a place in this game, but that place is not "the only thing that matters." Anyone who's serious about straight-up PVP MMOs knows that there are greener pastures than PWI, anyway. Just like anyone who did have some weird desire to eat cake icing would just buy a tin of it rather than buy a whole cake just to throw most of it away. :P

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Majority of people do not even have endgame gear, as confirmed by GMs. A lot of people do not pvp, and most never participate in endgame pvp. It's nice that is what you find fun, but it isn't for everyone. PVE content should be well designed so that is fun for players new and old. And quite frankly a lot of those new players that got turned away, are people that would may have spent money and become a fun opponent had the game inspired any confidence in them that it would be fun. You want them to spend money (keep servers running) and play with you in PVP, you gotta show them a good time when they first start. Otherwise, many of them will quit. And it is obvious that the influx of new players had diminished. The fact that the game appears to be super dead and empty when you first make a new character and dont' know anyone or what to do, doesn't help.

Gotta agree with all of this. But can you tell me where a GM said that? o.o I'd love to see a breakdown of gear calibers people have these days.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Majority of people do not even have endgame gear, as confirmed by GMs. A lot of people do not pvp, and most never participate in endgame pvp. It's nice that is what you find fun, but it isn't for everyone. PVE content should be well designed so that is fun for players new and old. And quite frankly a lot of those new players that got turned away, are people that would may have spent money and become a fun opponent had the game inspired any confidence in them that it would be fun. You want them to spend money (keep servers running) and play with you in PVP, you gotta show them a good time when they first start. Otherwise, many of them will quit. And it is obvious that the influx of new players had diminished. The fact that the game appears to be super dead and empty when you first make a new character and dont' know anyone or what to do, doesn't help.

Agreed on most points. However this has nothing to do with hypering fc, if people want to shortcut to 100 to PvP then they can hyper fc. If people want to 'enjoy' the PvE content and complete every quest in the game, be my guest.

To PvP you only need gear equal to that of your opponent. If you want to beat a r9rr you cant do it with TT90 but if your friends that you play PK with are all TT90 then you can have loads of fun.

Taking away the option to skip the PvE content that isnt to everyones tastes is like removing the option to PK or NW or TW on a PvE server. I think its up to the player to make their choice on how they want to level. There are little to no incentives to stay low level longer. Dont remove the method to powerlvl, address the reason.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sure, if you want to be lazy (gee, what does that sound like?). But the beauty of killing world mobs is that they're essentially a freestyle canvas for skill practicing. Is killing one mob boring? Kill two at once, or three, or three and that one behind you that just spawned and stunned you. Still too boring? Find someone to team up with, use some on-the-fly team strategies against groups, hell, start a mini zhen if you want. An auto-attack masher in quests is going to be an auto-attack masher at endgame, too.

erm. yes.
indeed, my original post was not phrased correctly; I should have added the 'mob by mob' in the solo grinding part too. let me rephrase then:

solo grinding one mob after the other hardly teaches you anything.

wasn't that the argument against oracle-babies anyway?

aoe grinding, zhenning etc is a whole different story, I gain a significant chunk of practise/skill/w/e when grinding in VoS on my psy

Toliman - Raging Tide

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

or maybe they are random grinding strangers like you.
or you just haven't learned to react to events more complicated than a easy mob attacking you so you fail and die.

I know theory about bh - how it must be done, but in those theory absent characters without gear (half of mine HP and without defense) or characters, which can randomly aggro dozen of mobs in bh.

If I can do bh duo with my Cleric, then I do it. It much better than group of characters, some of which are worse than mobs or bosses.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

I know theory about bh - how it must be done, but in those theory absent characters without gear (half of mine HP and without defense) or characters, which can randomly aggro dozen of mobs in bh.

If I can do bh duo with my Cleric, then I do it. It much better than group of characters, some of which are worse than mobs or bosses.

anyone can run with a perfect squad; true skill shows when things start to fail. why would you die when someone aggroes a dozen of mobs?

Toliman - Raging Tide

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

anyone can run with a perfect squad; true skill shows when things start to fail. why would you die when someone aggroes a dozen of mobs?

Last time my Wizard died to save Cleric.

Used DB to aggro all those sudden mobs an died (Cleric was busy and not healed my character).

Mobs died though too (with help of other squad member - Seeker, which left alive after death of my character ).

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

Last time my Wizard died to save Cleric.

Used DB to aggro all those sudden mobs an died (Cleric was busy and not healed my character).

Mobs died though too (with help of other squad member - Seeker, which left alive after death of my character ).

why did the cleric get aggro in the first place? healing aggro?

so you are dual clienting in a squad while playing a cleric, your other toon dies and you blame it on fc babies? with a seeker, cleric and wizard it would be natural to pull and aoe the mobs instead of killing one by one, especially since it looks like it was do-able considering that you did it even after wiz died (would he have died if you expeled? if instead of DB and switching to cleric you spammed aoes? phoenix, mountain siege would have reduced the load.)

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sure, if you want to be lazy (gee, what does that sound like?). But the beauty of killing world mobs is that they're essentially a freestyle canvas for skill practicing. Is killing one mob boring? Kill two at once, or three, or three and that one behind you that just spawned and stunned you. Still too boring? Find someone to team up with, use some on-the-fly team strategies against groups, hell, start a mini zhen if you want. An auto-attack masher in quests is going to be an auto-attack masher at endgame, too.

All I'm saying is, if you're going to write off a whole chunk of game content which just so happens to take up a vast majority of the world map and low and midlevel activities as "not really playing," I'm gonna have to ask you to back that up. Last I checked, the game didn't start at Lv100.


Joining PWI for the PVP is like buying a cake for the tasteless bargain-bin icing on top of it. What do you think that huge world map with all the mobs is for? Pretty sure it's not PVP-related. I'm also pretty sure that it took a hell of a lot more time to design and code than slapping another 10 or 20 attack levels on the broken gear du jour every six months.

PVP certainly has a place in this game, but that place is not "the only thing that matters." Anyone who's serious about straight-up PVP MMOs knows that there are greener pastures than PWI, anyway. Just like anyone who did have some weird desire to eat cake icing would just buy a tin of it rather than buy a whole cake just to throw most of it away. :P


Gotta agree with all of this. But can you tell me where a GM said that? o.o I'd love to see a breakdown of gear calibers people have these days.

Evidently given the empty world map, people prefer to hyper fc than to go out in big beautiful world map and devise new and wonderful ways to kill mobs or to step up the difficulty level by taking on multiple mobs at the same time for that adrenaline rush of the challenge... o.o

People dont join PWI for the PvP, but rather having experienced the cake prefer the PvP or prefer the PvE, I would wager the minority enjoy PvE exclusively. In any case removing the ability to hyper fc will mean people will hyper PV and then hyper FC then back to PV or w/e, they wont suddenly flock to the open world and conclude that killing 100s of mobs in zhen style with you is pure unadulterated joy.

Theres are two types of players those that prefer PvP and those that prefer PvE, they should coexist and if someone decides after a class rebalancing or w/e they want to try their hand at a psy they shouldnt have to kill 1000s of mobs for several years before getting to lvl 100.

Excuse the sarcasm and exaggerations, but you get my point. Apologies if you're offended you dont strike me as the kind of player that is interested in PvP.

Toliman - Raging Tide

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

why did the cleric get aggro in the first place? healing aggro?

so you are dual clienting in a squad while playing a cleric, your other toon dies and you blame it on fc babies? with a seeker, cleric and wizard it would be natural to pull and aoe the mobs instead of killing one by one, especially since it looks like it was do-able considering that you did it even after wiz died (would he have died if you expeled? if instead of DB and switching to cleric you spammed aoes? phoenix, mountain siege would have reduced the load.)

Cleric was not mine. And healed someone else. Mobs were around us. Perfect place for Dragon's Breath with low channeling time and 1 spark, that had my Wizard at those moment, about 20k-30k my character did to those mobs during 2-3 hits of DB (can't say exactly now).

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

mmm sounds good thenb:cute

Miugre - Heavens Tear

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

[...]this has nothing to do with hypering fc, if people want to shortcut to 100 to PvP then they can hyper fc. If people want to 'enjoy' the PvE content and complete every quest in the game, be my guest.

Taking away the option to skip the PvE content that isnt to everyones tastes is like removing the option to PK or NW or TW on a PvE server. I think its up to the player to make their choice on how they want to level. There are little to no incentives to stay low level longer. Dont remove the method to powerlvl, address the reason.[...]

Evidently given the empty world map, people prefer to hyper fc than to go out in big beautiful world map[...]

People dont join PWI for the PvP, but rather having experienced the cake prefer the PvP or prefer the PvE, I would wager the minority enjoy PvE exclusively. In any case removing the ability to hyper fc will mean people will hyper PV and then hyper FC then back to PV or w/e, they wont suddenly flock to the open world and conclude that killing 100s of mobs in zhen style with you is pure unadulterated joy.

There are little to no incentives to stay low level because there are few to no people at low level, because they all powerlevel. And the reason people do that is because that people will rationalize absolutely anything that benefits them in the slightest. They have no ability to tell themselves "hey, this is actually pretty stupid and broken, and maybe I shouldn't do it." It shows a complete lack of critical thinking or any ability to draw a line.

You're just thoroughly convinced that 90% of the population is PVP-focused, aren't you? Too bad even the GMs apparently contradict you on that. :P Protip: If you spend 90% of your time doing PVP, then 90% of the people you come in contact with will also be interested in PVP. Problem is, the people you come in contact with aren't 90% of the population, or anywhere close. Most of the PVE majority in this game don't post here on the forums, nor are they particularly vocal in-game about every little thing like PVP folks seem to be. A PVE-focused player on the forums is a relative rarity, sure, but the forums are by no means representative of the population.

Since you seem to be wondering, I do participate in some PVP (mostly NW), and with lesser gear and better results than you'd expect. But NW wouldn't hold up on its own, and getting a character there legitimately is the whole point. If you wanted to level immediately and bypass the game, there are no shortage of pservers to accomodate you (and hell, some of them even have balanced PVP, unlike the official servers).

Eoria - Harshlands

So what are the good things about being low level again? Please list all of them.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

So what are the good things about being low level again? Please list all of them.

...read the thread. A lack of low level characters to play with is causing newbies to quit, which is causing a population drain that this game can't recover from. What's more to say?

I mean, I can go on about how the game is well-designed, and how it's still fun to visit all the areas, gives you a greater sense of achievement with the character, etc. but you're clearly not interested in any of that. But all that aside, if the population drain isn't reason enough for you, I don't know what you want here - except just to ask sarcastic questions that you're already convinced there are no valid answers to.

Toliman - Raging Tide

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

So what are the good things about being low level again? Please list all of them.

Good things to wear proper equipment for current level, to do quests (play in game), to fight with dangerous on current level mobs/bosses, which have same shapes/texture as high-level mobs/bosses, but proper life and skills.

Low level players can advance their characters and see their progress in attributes and skills (for high level it is almost invisible or for fc players it is one-week story).

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There are little to no incentives to stay low level because there are few to no people at low level, because they all powerlevel. And the reason people do that is because that people will rationalize absolutely anything that benefits them in the slightest. They have no ability to tell themselves "hey, this is actually pretty stupid and broken, and maybe I shouldn't do it." It shows a complete lack of critical thinking or any ability to draw a line.

You have answered none of my points with anything solid to the point where I see this discussion going nowhere, the answer that people power level to, by your own admission benefit themselves, due to a lack of morals is laughable.

I'll stop short of calling you a carebear, and draw the line at the fact that you and me will never see eye to eye on anything as you love the PvE aspect of the game exploring locations of the world map and taking screenies of mobs or w/e, whereas I love the PvP aspect such as TW (strategising and coordinating 80v80 players being a Marshal in a top 4 faction on my server) and seeking out challenging fights in NW (where I'm guessing you simply enter leave instances to farm the contribution and gain tokens - is this not rationalising something broken that benefits you?).

I'll leave you with the chilling reality that unfortunately PWE/PWI/GMs DGAF what you (the 'majority' PvE players - link to proof pls?) think as they will focus on the PvP oriented players that are more likely to throw money at them.

Enjoy your mobs.

Cheers. b:bye

Riverwell - Archosaur

All of the arguments against level restricting Frost seem to be predicated on two arguments:

1. that it means grinding TONS of mobs to level.
2. that it would take FOREVER to get to endgame.

Seriously have yall even leveled a character without FC recently? It's ridiculously easy. I just got my veno to 40 within a week, and that was with dumping my experience into 3 genies (and I haven't even done a BH, crazy stone or started the Tideborn Chain). If I wanted to I probably could have been in my 6X or maybe 7X now.

Here's the beauty of it: people who want to get to endgame so that they could pvp or whatever could easily do it within the month. And people who want to stay and enjoy more quest-content, can do what I did and take the slower route. The thing is that I was on the open map this whole time, and it would increase the number of people you see around the world therefore increasing the appeal of the game for new players. (And really, attracting new players is the issue that's at the heart of this argument.)

As a sidenote: if you're saying that hyper FC to endgame teaches you more about your character than running BH with people in your level range, I'm calling complete bull.

ovenusarmanio

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm not arguing that a full game experience should -actually, MUST- be more than BMH.
but I'm saying that, as far as training is concerned, solo grinding one by one mobs is worse than killing heads, especially with the current dreamchaser armor+free charms+free +5 refines.

Except that because you've been given an incentive, and a HUGE one at that, to not do any of the other content. Many people do not experience everything else except for heads until they hit around 80 or so. And in BH29, the mobs protecting Qingzi all aoe. The latterns also explode. This can cause problems for squishy, at level players w/o dreamchaser gear when they aren't done bit by bit. So many 100s who solo it (and that's one that nobody gets a squad for anymore) tell the person they are soloing for to stand back. it's not exactly boss aoe, but you can't do the boss without first dealing with the aoe. Which is about the same experience they get with in FC.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Agreed on most points. However this has nothing to do with hypering fc, if people want to shortcut to 100 to PvP then they can hyper fc. If people want to 'enjoy' the PvE content and complete every quest in the game, be my guest.

To PvP you only need gear equal to that of your opponent. If you want to beat a r9rr you cant do it with TT90 but if your friends that you play PK with are all TT90 then you can have loads of fun.

Taking away the option to skip the PvE content that isnt to everyones tastes is like removing the option to PK or NW or TW on a PvE server. I think its up to the player to make their choice on how they want to level. There are little to no incentives to stay low level longer. Dont remove the method to powerlvl, address the reason.

It has everything to do with hyper FC. They can't address the reason why people power level so long as it exists. Would you go back to nirvana if they made all the bosses easier and gave you a few more cannies and raps so that in a couple of weeks you could make the same as you would in 2 days of nation wars? Probably not. As long as FC exists, no matter what they do, skipping the content will always be more rewarding than not skipping the content. And no the majority of the playerbase does not PVP. I'm sure the majority people you know do. But considering world map pvp is dead except a few hotspots, and most pk'ers know of each other at least, and the fact that since HL not a single PVP server has been opened, I'd wager the thousands of other players are pve oriented. The PVP players do tend to have more invested in the toon, not necessarily but resources as well. So it's not surprising they are a huge part of the forum population.

The entire point of putting a cap on FC is because it destroys any incentive to remain low level. That's the entire problem with it.

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

So what are the good things about being low level again? Please list all of them.

Nothing at the moment. There is nobody to do the content with, so anything that requires more than one person just has to be skipped or watch some high level one shot it 4 seconds for you. New players are completely isolated from the rest of the game, and currently the content for skipping it is more rewarding than the content for not skipping it. That's the reason new customers are not pvping with you, Bh'ing with you, or spending money on this game. As this game dies out due to the lack of new customers, PWE is ofc going to expend less resources of it. You can't have a business without new customers, that is just a fact. And new customers are not going to stay around if they are not given any incentive too, and come to an empty business.

@Miug

genotypist wrote: »

This is true, actually. The vast majority of players are not decked out in endgame gear, according to our info.

It's apparently not even close. The endgame gear is not the standard. So you can compete with people on your own gear level, but those in endgame gear are in a group of their own. A relatively smaller amount of endgame gear = a relatively speaking smaller amount of endgame gear level pvp. That's not to say that people don't compete in less than that. They can and they do. And relatively equal gear PVP is something I'm sure a lot of people do. EG a lot of the smaller tw factions battle it out with each other while they can. It just that endgame gear is not something a lot of people reach. So the fun in the content should be designed around a broader audience than those who want to rush to endgame, get geared, and do nothing but PVP.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You have answered none of my points with anything solid to the point where I see this discussion going nowhere, the answer that people power level to, by your own admission benefit themselves, due to a lack of morals is laughable.

I'll stop short of calling you a carebear, and draw the line at the fact that you and me will never see eye to eye on anything as you love the PvE aspect of the game exploring locations of the world map and taking screenies of mobs or w/e, whereas I love the PvP aspect such as TW (strategising and coordinating 80v80 players being a Marshal in a top 4 faction on my server) and seeking out challenging fights in NW (where I'm guessing you simply enter leave instances to farm the contribution and gain tokens - is this not rationalising something broken that benefits you?).

I'll leave you with the chilling reality that unfortunately PWE/PWI/GMs DGAF what you (the 'majority' PvE players - link to proof pls?) think as they will focus on the PvP oriented players that are more likely to throw money at them.

Enjoy your mobs.

Cheers. b:bye

Well, I must admit that I haven't seen this caliber of blind misconceptions and conclusion-jumping in quite a while on these forums (and that's saying a lot, given our community). So according to you, my contribution to NW is akin to that of an afk alt? Really? Based on what, exactly? Oh, it's the fact that I don't glorify PVP and treat PVE as entirely irrelevant by comparison. Makes perfect sense. -_-

Let me say this word-by-word very slowly, because I think it's not going to reach you any other way (you may want to sit down for this). People... can... enjoy... both... PVE... AND... PVP. Okay? Is that clear enough for you? It's not a black-and-white, one or the other situation here. Virtually everyone here has participated in at least one friendly duel just for the lolz, and virtually everyone has done at least one quest (if only for culti). There is a whole spectrum of playstyle possibilities, not just two. I'm truly sorry that you can't seem to comprehend any idea of fun besides your own, but as long as that's the case, you may want to remove yourself from situations like these where not everyone will respect your e-peen as much as your factionmates. We wouldn't want to cause any world-shattering revelations, after all.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Gotta agree there o.o there are people who love and enjoy both PvP and PvE and I'm one of them. I also understand some people prefer only one or the other.

Also "really playing" and "having fun" is not something that can be defined because it's up to each individual. Some people enjoy grinding, others enjoy intense PK, others like to play with fashion and go around taking screenshots and others like goal driven group PvP such as TW.

Lastly, Riverwell said it right; it doesn't take ages to level up without FCC. It takes a bit longer, yes, but the difference isn't as big as people imply.

The difference is that people will actually be out there doing quests and run BHs instead of spend their time in the instance and by the time quests become less rewarding and more time consuming, they will already be in the level range for FCC (if it supposedly gets a level restriction).

Malei - Sanctuary

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

The difference is that people will actually be out there doing quests and run BHs instead of spend their time in the instance and by the time quests become less rewarding and more time consuming, they will already be in the level range for FCC (if it supposedly gets a level restriction).

And, to add, in doing this - new players that come into the game actually have a chance at playing with people around their level and holding a better grasp for what this game actually has to offer. That is what placing a level restriction to 75 or 85 is about. By the time you hit 75 and can enter FC, not only will you have a, AT THE LEAST, base understanding of what your toon is and how you interact in squad play, you'll have money to keep your skills updated as well as spirit, gear equal to your level more than likely, and a few friends to go along with you for the ride because you're playing the game with other people. You're doing BH29/39/51/69 with other people. You're questing with other people. You're seeing the game and interacting with it and it doesn't look dead and so you want to stay and invest more to your toon and level more.

So even when FC comes your way, you know what to do, what your goals are, and a variety of other things that simply playing would achieve greater than holding a bow+arrow, paying someone to clear the room for you, and shooting heads until you're 100.

Everyone's said it already.

bobyjoee

lol at people still discussing this b:chuckle its never going to happen. PWE will never ever change FC so just get over it.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear

bobyjoee wrote: »

lol at people still discussing this b:chuckle its never going to happen. PWE will never ever change FC so just get over it.

sounds like your the big bad troll who likes wrecking any possible future that pw has by saying stupid things such as this. Plus have ya taken this into your slushed up brain of yours,
If you get enough ppl to create enough outcry on something so destructive such as plvling in frost, you'll get the right kind of changes stead of having pw listen to someone who is pathetic as you. Theres also another thing that would make a good change on but your too numbskulled to see it since ya like claiming that lvl limiting frost with hypers wont happen.

It... would... make... the... starter... areas... more... populated. See how simple that is?

krisnda

Because of current events in PWI currently, it's probibly not likely to happen anytime soon, but as soon as things change, I'll be one (of many) to help out with pushing this, because it's a change of the game for the better.

Brillance - Raging Tide

Riverwell - Archosaur wrote: »

All of the arguments against level restricting Frost seem to be predicated on two arguments:

1. that it means grinding TONS of mobs to level.
2. that it would take FOREVER to get to endgame.
3. drive current players that want to farm FC from the game entirely.

Seriously have yall even leveled a character without FC recently? It's ridiculously easy. I just got my veno to 40 within a week, and that was with dumping my experience into 3 genies (and I haven't even done a BH, crazy stone or started the Tideborn Chain). If I wanted to I probably could have been in my 6X or maybe 7X now.

Here's the beauty of it: people who want to get to endgame so that they could pvp or whatever could easily do it within the month. And people who want to stay and enjoy more quest-content, can do what I did and take the slower route. The thing is that I was on the open map this whole time, and it would increase the number of people you see around the world therefore increasing the appeal of the game for new players. (And really, attracting new players is the issue that's at the heart of this argument.)

As a sidenote: if you're saying that hyper FC to endgame teaches you more about your character than running BH with people in your level range, I'm calling complete bull.

Im sorry, but your insurmountable need to change this in the game forgot #3. I wedged it in there for us all.

What's with that? You have to already be in the game to learn about Hypers, FC and P-leveling. Changing it doesnt get any new players for you. Only advertising does. Without an advertising campaign of some sort bigger than is available through free social media, nothing appreciable is going to magically appear. Sorry, it wont - no way, no how.

If you truely like staying one level, I would have to say Im amazed that you lasted at it this long, considering there have been no new players for at least 2 and half years from my limited perspective, and those who have played even longer might feel its been even longer - considering most folks I met had a habit of asking me whose alt I was when I first started playing 3 years ago. o_O

On the bright side, if you are successful in changing it, Im not sure the game would lose all that many more players. What's left on each server at peak moments to begin with - like Friday's NW? Ive seen estimates as high as 600 and as low as maybe 200 for that peak timeslot in the game.

People who posted before me are right - its gone from an interesting, informative, and even at times fun discussion, to silly and redundant, with even the proponents constantly changing stuff up to try to figure a new angle to keep it going.

Idk about anyone else, but its time for me to focus on a new topic. Put a fork in it. This one's done. b:chuckleb:thanks

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Im sorry, but your insurmountable need to change this in the game forgot #3. I wedged it in there for us all.

What's with that? You have to already be in the game to learn about Hypers, FC and P-leveling. Changing it doesnt get any new players for you. Only advertising does. Without an advertising campaign of some sort bigger than is available through free social media, nothing appreciable is going to magically appear. Sorry, it wont - no way, no how.

If you truely like staying one level, I would have to say Im amazed that you lasted at it this long, considering there have been no new players for at least 2 and half years from my limited perspective, and those who have played even longer might feel its been even longer - considering most folks I met had a habit of asking me whose alt I was when I first started playing 3 years ago. o_O

On the bright side, if you are successful in changing it, Im not sure the game would lose all that many more players. What's left on each server at peak moments to begin with - like Friday's NW? Ive seen estimates as high as 600 and as low as maybe 200 for that peak timeslot in the game.

People who posted before me are right - its gone from an interesting, informative, and even at times fun discussion, to silly and redundant, with even the proponents constantly changing stuff up to try to figure a new angle to keep it going.

Idk about anyone else, but its time for me to focus on a new topic. Put a fork in it. This one's done. b:chuckleb:thanks

Which would you rather prefer for this game?

A. drive even more unsatisfied players away by having them become so bored and lonely, that they'll tell their friends not to come here.

B. Possibly make the game better and to give any possible new and returning players the confidence and benefits of playing the game with alot more excitement than what it is currently.

Idk bout you, but the ones your talking bout are just a small minority. Look at what happened when hypering in frost was disabled for a week. we had ppl literally doing bhs and other content rather than constantly looking for squads in a single instance. If you or anyone else thinks that by putting a lvl cap on frost will drive more players away, your sadly mistaken. When pw revamped sot and aba, sure it took a while for us to adapt but the players did adapt eventually even though pw didnt need to revamp those instances to begin with. blue divine quests were made harder to complete cause of how pw put the mobs needed for those in a different place than what the autopath was directed towards.

If pw were to put a lvl cap on hypering frost, that would definitely make the game alot more alive again than how it is now. How would you feel if you were a new player just starting, with no high lvl main and the only coin ya could get is from the jolly jones quests and any xtra coin ya could make from either the quests themselves or merchanting from time to time? If i was in someones shoes like that, i probably would of quit the game before hitting 60. players dont like playing alone when it comes to a MMO. Which is why pw is an MMO (mass multiplayer online game). Its where a player gets the chance to meet other players and have fun while doing things together, not stare at a screen while wanting to catch up to the rest of the group like in a speedway race. Plus if one wanted to play alone, than the best option for em is to play arcade or video games not something like pw where you cant deny that other players are around to have fun as well.

Seems like you've created this big bubble of yours to where you think that all you need to have fun is hyper in frost as many times as possible till you reach 100+, join squads for bh, aeu, nw, morai, any others im missing? Somehow i think you and alot of other idiots dont realize or dont want to realize is this. lvl 100 is not the beginning, its like trying to make a reading book the back page the front, and the front the back when all you'll be doing is reading upside down. Seems like your logical reasons are as dead as being tossed into the trash can.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also, I can't think of any regular quest mob that isn't soloable by any class. You just have to be smart with how you handle them. As in, don't approach that cluster of ten Spinewraiths with your barb, just pick off the stragglers on the side or use a genie pull. 99.99% of mob killing quests are mind-numbingly easy no matter how many mobs you have to kill.

It isn't impossible, but it takes a lot longer than is deemed efficient by even quest reward standards. Again, there are dailies, Emissary, and Jone's quests that would be better time spent if those quests still involved killing ~level * 10 mobs.


Here's a challenge:

Class: BM or Barb
Level: 50s range
Task: Kill 50 of each solo:

Pyrogolth Hierarch
Pyrogoth Emissary
Mermaiden Rustler

Now you get an idea what some classes went through in those levels, and why no one wants to do those quests alone. All mobs I listed were involved in 5x quests.

Riverwell - Archosaur

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Im sorry, but your insurmountable need to change this in the game forgot #3. I wedged it in there for us all.

This game is already driving away players. Yes. Level restricting hypers might drive away some, but it might make others stay and possibly bring some old players back.

What's with that? You have to already be in the game to learn about Hypers, FC and P-leveling. Changing it doesnt get any new players for you. Only advertising does. Without an advertising campaign of some sort bigger than is available through free social media, nothing appreciable is going to magically appear. Sorry, it wont - no way, no how.

True, I do still see ads for PWI occasionally, but if they're going to ramp up advertising to bring in new players, they're going to have to make an environment that looks inviting to newbies when they start out, and having everyone in hyper FC is not enticing.

If you truely like staying one level, I would have to say Im amazed that you lasted at it this long, considering there have been no new players for at least 2 and half years from my limited perspective, and those who have played even longer might feel its been even longer - considering most folks I met had a habit of asking me whose alt I was when I first started playing 3 years ago. o_O

I don't like staying at one level? I don't really understand what you're trying to say here.

There are new players that come in, but most of them quit. I know because I'll add someone 3x or 4x to my FL and I never see them log on again. The game isn't appealing to new players. PWI can get new players, they just can't keep them.

On the bright side, if you are successful in changing it, Im not sure the game would lose all that many more players. What's left on each server at peak moments to begin with - like Friday's NW? Ive seen estimates as high as 600 and as low as maybe 200 for that peak timeslot in the game.

Are you saying that we wouldn't loose that many players by level restricting hyper FC? I'm kind of confused here...

People who posted before me are right - its gone from an interesting, informative, and even at times fun discussion, to silly and redundant, with even the proponents constantly changing stuff up to try to figure a new angle to keep it going.

Idk about anyone else, but its time for me to focus on a new topic. Put a fork in it. This one's done. b:chuckleb:thanks

stuff was said

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Let me say this word-by-word very slowly, because I think it's not going to reach you any other way (you may want to sit down for this). People... can... enjoy... both... PVE... AND... PVP. Okay? Is that clear enough for you? It's not a black-and-white, one or the other situation here. Virtually everyone here has participated in at least one friendly duel just for the lolz, and virtually everyone has done at least one quest (if only for culti). There is a whole spectrum of playstyle possibilities, not just two. I'm truly sorry that you can't seem to comprehend any idea of fun besides your own, but as long as that's the case, you may want to remove yourself from situations like these where not everyone will respect your e-peen as much as your factionmates. We wouldn't want to cause any world-shattering revelations, after all.

Clearly you arent getting this. Let's try a different approach for you. Perhaps that might sink in. People enjoy both PvE and PvP of course, that is obvious. AFTER doing all there is to do in PvE, some people prefer PvP and dont really care for PvE, why you may ask, well unlike yourself, some people get boring doing the same thing over and over again. Tree hugging out in some random location killing the same mob or group of mobs is boring. If you still get a rush of excitement from using a different skill to kill a mob, go nuts, knock yourself out.

Setting aside deadend discussions, and addressing the issue here, the reason new players have no one to play with in their new areas is because most 'new players' are old players making new classes. They have already done all the quests (after lvl 20 or w/e these are the same irrespective of class) and frankly dont want to do them all over again for little to no reward, just want to lvl fast and and rejoin their higher level friends.

Remove the option to hyper fc at lower lvls and even those people will not want to make a new class.

Lets face reality, there are hardly any actual new players coming to the game nowadays. Why would you play a massively outdated game. Cater to the old existing players and stop them from leaving would be my priority.

ovenusarmanio

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

It isn't impossible, but it takes a lot longer than is deemed efficient by even quest reward standards. Again, there are dailies, Emissary, and Jone's quests that would be better time spent if those quests still involved killing ~level * 10 mobs.


Here's a challenge:

Class: BM or Barb
Level: 50s range
Task: Kill 50 of each solo:

Pyrogolth Hierarch
Pyrogoth Emissary
Mermaiden Rustler

Now you get an idea what some classes went through in those levels, and why no one wants to do those quests alone. All mobs I listed were involved in 5x quests.

Now here is what the quest is now:

Errant Knight Fei asked you to go south of King's Feast to kill 10 Pyrogolth Hierarchs.

Required to do

Kill: Pyrogolth Hierarch (53) Amount:10

Award

Gold: 25.000

Exp: 41000

SP: 4850

Reputation: 6

SP: 4850

41k exp, 25k coins for killing 10 mobs only. The quests are easier. It doesn't matter that they were harder then, they are better now. Capping FF would not magically put the quest back to 2008 times. You can get to level 70 in a couple of weeks, and that is not including BH. There is also still the quest master, the level lucids, etc. People would do these if they couldn't hyper FC. That isn't speculation, this whole debate started when hypers got turned off by accident. And while some people refused to play until they could hyper their alts, and some probably left, there was also an increase in all of the lowbie content getting used. We know this would happen because it already has, the low level stuff had more people doing it. Because it was suddenly the better option.

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Im sorry, but your insurmountable need to change this in the game forgot #3. I wedged it in there for us all.

There are new players, they simply quit. I seen hundreds of times by now. Ask any takes all players factions and they will tell you sometimes they get new players, and they will also you their guild roster full of people who never made it past their 30s. Considering it only takes like an hour to get to level 20, it should tell you a lot about what those people thought of the game. Some of them were abandoned alts OFC, but some of them are people who quit after only getting that far. New customers have come here and went on record as saying that they quit because it was lonely. It's an undeniable fact. New players are quitting because the game is empty. Maybe not all of them but some of them.

http://blog.stackoverflow.com/wp-content/uploads/Empty-Restaurant.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/12/26/international/26argen1.583.jpg

Which of these two restaurants do you think probably has better food? Which one of these would you eat at if you could only choose one of the two. It works the same with every purchase people make. An empty world map inspires zero new customer confidence, and makes people doubt the quality of the game. An MMO is a massive multiplayer online game. It is totally unreasonable to assume that none of the new customers who left didn't have an issue with playing an MMO that did not appear to be massively multiplayer. That they didn't actually want a game that was massively multiplayer anyway, and would have left regardless. Since it is the entire reason to play one. When you're in an instance you are hidden from view. There is a reason restaurants seat people in the front first. You go to a restaurant and see nobody around, you're less likely to patronize that restaurant. You go to an MMO and it appears to have such a low population that it isn't even an MMO anymore, you're less likely to patronize that game. Every business knows it is important to draw in new customers. Advertising wont help if the game appears to be DOA. Advertising must go hand and hand with worthwhile new player content.

The game industry spends millions of dollars on the start of a game for precisely this reason. Most people have decided whether they want to play a single player game within the first five minutes for example.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

New players are quitting because the game is empty. Maybe not all of them but some of them.

I wouldn't say the game is "empty" so much as say that the game pre-100 is dead, and until new content is added - the game post 100 is still too easy and boring. Basically what we have is players who have reached end game and are bored. We have two options - PVP, and re-roll new toons to (gear up and) play with. I'm not sure about the mass majority of players here - but I personally don't want to do the whole questing game again on an alt. I can learn to use my skills as I level my alt in FC, or grind a bit to experiment with the skills. I used to not agree with this sentiment, but nowadays I do. So, when the majority of the lower level toon are alts of older members used for JJ coin quest farming, FC nabing it up for future PK/farming, buff alts, this leaves little community for the genuinely new members to squad with for BH etc. Ultimately, I suppose it is a good thing that the new quests have been streamlined for faster leveling for the new members.

I've played (briefly) while on break from PWI an MMO that is older than PWI - and for the most part, the grinding spots were just as they are here - fairly empty. But you go into any of the cities and just as you see here - its player shops galore. Early end game gears were in shops for several millions, and were easily purchased within a couple weeks of playing the game (though I was nowhere near the level) through merchanting. Main difference there though is that their "chance packs" came from an event where you could farm mobs (killable even by a level 1 toon) as a %chance to drop. They still had a cash shop and those items were tradable.. Anyhow.. not sure where I was ultimately going with this save to draw some comparisons/contrasts between the two games.

One thing I can say is that if the value of decent-for-level gears, as well as skill books, rises constantly as the overall wealth of the servers climbs - it puts the new players even more at a disadvantage to catching up without throwing Visa at the game. This might be what PWE ultimately *wants* to see (rank gears), but from a new customer standpoint it is bad business. Gears and skills should be realistically obtainable for a casual new gamer (rank aside) without resorting to cashing for it. Fortunately for the new members - TT and Lunar have had the **** farmed out of them and the prices are extremely low these days (viewed in comparison to the rise in gold prices over time) although book pages have risen slightly over time. This is all well and good, but who wants to play an MMO where there is no one to play with (because they are all buff alts, TT openers, and FC babies)?

Ultimately.. I suppose the "powerleveling" mechanism of hyper stones (not FC itself as an exp instance) has been the death of the game for new members. The damage, as has been said before, is already done. There really is no reason at this point to take hypers away - since the game is basically at this point aimed at end game PVP (even on PVE servers) via weekend TW and NW. There... is.. nothing.. else.

My 2 million cents.