Disable hypers in frost, yes, no or LV restricted? FORGOTTEN THREAD

Desdi - Sanctuary

Hmm gotta agree with Marengo here.
Allowing Hypers in FCC had certainly a negative impact but it was further increased by the playerbase itself.
People running FCC in squads actually taught people how to play in a squad and it was one of the hardest and most fun instances to do as a Cleric. My Venomancer was already lvl89 when I stepped foot in FCC but my Cleric started from lvl80.

When people realised/figured they can drag toons in there and level up quickly, the problem really became a problem but considering nowadays quests and all the goodies people receive at low levels, they can level you just as fast so I can no longer really blame FCC for the "hyper babies".

Also, I disagree that people who hyper their way through are not good players. It's been said over and over but this game is not rocket science. It can be easy or complicated depending on the person but at the end of the day if you spend some time reading your skills, trying them out and running a couple of instances with a team...you'll be become decent at the very least. As long as you want to learn your class, you will learn it regardless of what you've done in-game. I have a few friends who literally powerleveled their toons because they wanted to try out a new class and they are damn good at said classes despite being 100% "hyper babies". They simply know and understand the game.

The issue I see personally is that people have gotten lazy and keep powerleveling despite their gear not being able to catch up, just because the option is there. I repeat though, it's not just FCC, but all these new updated quests and goodies low levels can receive.

Frankly, I feel like Hyper & FCC are both a curse and a blessing to the game.
Like Marengo said, most veterans around here have been through the lower level content several times already and that's when it gets boring. When new quests appear we go back and try them out and that's it (though I haven't tried out the most recent ones yet).

I've been leveling a Mystic for some time and he's still stuck around lvl9x just because I'm too lazy and bored to do the cultivation all over again (from lvl89 to 100 with Chrono and all) because I've done it several times already... It was fun the first time, it was enjoyable the second time, it was nice the third time..but then it just gets boring.

I used to support a lvl resctriction in FCC but I just don't care as much anymore. I don't know if it would really help the game in the long run. The game is just getting old (and mismanaged by the company). People just won't find it as appealing anymore.

Neferhotep - Lost City

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also, I disagree that people who hyper their way through are not good players.

I have a few friends who literally powerleveled their toons because they wanted to try out a new class and they are damn good at said classes despite being 100% "hyper babies".

The issue I see personally is that people have gotten lazy and keep powerleveling despite their gear not being able to catch up, just because the option is there. I repeat though, it's not just FCC, but all these new updated quests and goodies low levels can receive.

I used to support a lvl resctriction in FCC but I just don't care as much anymore. I don't know if it would really help the game in the long run. The game is just getting old (and mismanaged by the company). People just won't find it as appealing anymore.

i agree to 100% . A player who lvled his char only by questing doesnt have to be a great player in the end. Pure Questing does only teach you how your class works alone, so its not better at all. There are many who are already experienced and just dont want to repeat everything over and over, and if people want to speed up they WILL, with or without FCC.

LvL-restriction would be nice and of course, better than it is now. But in the end, the playerbase has just changed mainly, provoked by PWE itself. So it is already too late for the game to change back. Many players, especially some of those who are new , are lazy and egoistical and just want to reach the top instead of enjoying the way to it, no matter if they are ruining the fun of this game for others with their behavior. In PWIs development i see a huge similarity to our western world, what is actually both funny and sad.

StabbyCakes - Heavens Tear

End game content is more entertaining than start game content, in my opinion. I didn't like most of the quests, and I leveled several toons before bh/FF came out. Trust me you guys aren't missing much.

Fly around and listen to the stories of lost lovers and dead sons, and an angry god Pan Gu who will torment the -translation not finished-

lol. End game content with morai and stuff is way more entertaining than the years of leveling.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

I know it's been a couple of pages but...

RyuTiger - Raging Tide wrote: »

Someone close this noob topic please! Is been discussed, been to a vote and they decided to leave it the way it is, why you keep talk about it? This topic is useless....

Actually, if you bothered to pay attention to any of the other discussions about it, V4liance stated that they would monitor it and re-evaluate the possibility of disabling hypers in FCC or level-restrictions on the instance.

And, as usual, V4liance is no longer here, and we have no information if this is continuing to happen. It's not a closed discussion because it has a great impact on the game's community. You sound similar to some of the people we would rather have gone.

Brillance - Raging Tide

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

I know it's been a couple of pages but...

Actually, if you bothered to pay attention to any of the other discussions about it, V4liance stated that they would monitor it and re-evaluate the possibility of disabling hypers in FCC or level-restrictions on the instance.

And, as usual, V4liance is no longer here, and we have no information if this is continuing to happen. It's not a closed discussion because it has a great impact on the game's community. You sound similar to some of the people we would rather have gone.

lol, wut? b:chuckle

Okies, a few questions here:

1. Who are you?

2. Who are 'we'?

3. Why should anyone, including PWI, give a rats patooty what people you/'we' would rather have gone?

4. What right do you feel you have to request anyone gone?

5. If the company wants players gone, dont you think they have the ability to make them gone? Do they need you/'we' to tell them who needs to be gone?

6. Will you be making up any funds/profits the company loses, should they lose any players with this 'great impact'?

7. What is the 'great impact' nerfing Frost will have? Doesnt seem legitimate to me.

Its not going to force anyone to do anything - except maybe decide not to bother with the game anymore.

Its not going to do a thing to bring any new players into the game.

Its not going to hinder the hyper babies that have already graduated FC in any way, shape or form. They wont become good players because someone tries to force others to do something else.

RyuTiger - Raging Tide wrote: »

Someone close this noob topic please! Is been discussed, been to a vote and they decided to leave it the way it is, why you keep talk about it? This topic is useless....

Yes, useless and redundant. *looks bored*

Tigriss_o - Raging Tide

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

how many others do you know that behave like you though? just because one wishes do spend thousands doesn't mean that everyone, or even a sufficient amount of people, will be willing to spend thousands to grind mob after mob

+1. live and let live.

Your right there are not many like me. But you understood what I was getting at. People enjoy different things just do it your own way and let others do it theirs people spend money on what they wish. Not one group of players is responsible for paying for the server. People of all levels chip in. I don't spend money to grind on mobs well sometimes I get charms and an estorica every once in a wile. I spend money to look cute and have pretty mounts and flyers lol

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Here's a few answers. b:pleased

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

lol, wut? b:chuckle

Okies, a few questions here:

1. Who are you?
SylenThunder of course b:chuckle
I have a tendency to fight for the users in a more pronounced way than a lot of people will take the time and effort into doing. (it's gotten me in trouble a couple of times too.)
I also have had several occasions to speak with the actual developers in China and share correspondence to the point of submitting code for in-game fixes. I used to have a lot of open discussion with several of the GM's and CM's with PWE, but alas, most of them have since left the company. I have also been invited a few times to share my opinion in tests on the beta servers. The only thing that has limited me from actually becoming a member of the PWE staff is that I don't live in California, and they don't do telecommuting.

2. Who are 'we'?
I'm referring "we" as the the majority that voted in this thread and shared their opinions.

3. Why should anyone, including PWI, give a rats patooty what people you/'we' would rather have gone?
I'm a believer in "one voice can make a difference". I also tend to go out of my way to be heard. If a large number of users express a shared desire, it tends to create change. Any company, especially with companies such as PWE, the money is in customer retention. If we, the users, express stongly that a certain change is more likely to keep us around, the company (if it's a good one) will listen to that and evaluate it. (As V4liance already stated they would actually do.)

4. What right do you feel you have to request anyone gone?
Look at it from a community standpoint. You live in a nice neighborhood. You like your yard. You pay your house payment, property taxes, ect. Life is nice, your friends are nice. There's even weekend block parties in the summer.

Now a few years go by. There's a 7-11 on one corner and a liquor shop on the other. People with loud stereos drive down your street and rattle the pictures on your walls. Your friends are moving out and going to nicer neighborhoods. Property values plummet and most of your neighbors are people you can't stand to be within 20 feet of. Garbage lines the streets.

What do you do? Do you live with it? Do you move out like some of your friends did? Or do you stand up, go to the city council, raise a ruckus, and illicit change?
I'm for raising a ruckus and creating change.

5. If the company wants players gone, dont you think they have the ability to make them gone? Do they need you/'we' to tell them who needs to be gone?
It's not that the company will do it directly. The company wants to make money. If they see that imposing a change will improve the player community and support continued growth, they will implement the change. The "undesirables" will either adapt, move out, or be pushed out by the community. (Just like in the previous neighborhood example.)

6. Will you be making up any funds/profits the company loses, should they lose any players with this 'great impact'?
The idea is that the "great impact" will be growth. If there is any loss, it will be minimal, and will be returned with interest from the future growth and stability.

7. What is the 'great impact' nerfing Frost will have? Doesnt seem legitimate to me.
Maybe you missed the second link in the first post?

Its not going to force anyone to do anything - except maybe decide not to bother with the game anymore.
As per the above linked example, when hypers got disabled on accident, for that entire week the game showed more/better activity that it had in a long time. People tend to adapt. The older players fell into the old rhythms, and taught the newer players a few things. As a result, I also saw some old friends and familiar faces make a return.

Its not going to do a thing to bring any new players into the game.
Absolutely it will, if you look at the bigger picture.
Again, I will refer to "The Week When Frost Died". More low-level instances were run. More high level players were helping low level players. There was a huge increase in activity in the low-level cities and quest areas.

Now, imagine you're a brand new player just coming into the game. You start out in the lower levels, level up, pretty much play the game like a solo RPG because you hardly run into any people that will talk to you or quest with you. Factions don't want you because you're a low level and your gear sucks. Most of the time asking questions just gets ignored, or gets you treated like you are some kind of complete moron.
Are you going to stay and spend money on the game? I know I wouldn't.

Flip the coin. You're a brand new player. You run into people while doing your early questing. You talk, share quests, work together to complete goals, become friends. You level up and you join a faction early because plenty of factions will openly accept you. You make even more friends. You invest some money of gear or fashion. You continue to play.

Note: Just for reference, I write a lot of guides, I gather a lot of data, and at just about any point in time I have at least one character that I'm playing between the levels of 1 and 70. I can state that the first new player example I mentioned is exactly how the current game experience is a majority of the time. There have been a couple of rare exceptions, but they are few and far between.

Its not going to hinder the hyper babies that have already graduated FC in any way, shape or form. They wont become good players because someone tries to force others to do something else.
No it won't. From where I sit, they will either learn, or they will weed themselves out.
I will happily take the time, effort, and cost to teach them, if they are willing to learn. If they aren't, I'll make a note to try to avoid them in the future.
When enough people are avoiding them, they usually loose interest and quit. (The exception to that being the heavy cash shoppers that focus on e-peen. They are usually the loud obnoxious morons you hear in WC.)

The whole point of what we want from these discussions, is to create an overall improvement in the game's community, increase the populace in the lower level areas, and result in a continued growth in the player base and player retention.
...

As usual, responses are in blue. b:victory

Brillance - Raging Tide

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Here's a few answers.

As usual, responses are in blue.

You make a good point from your perspective.

We can flip the coin too...let's look at the game from the new players perspective shall we? Or, new alts for that matter.

If leveling is as easy and non-involved as everyone claims it now is, that's a good thing for new players who play other MMOs and understand that the point of any game is to get to endgame, and do instances, and once the player base runs out of new instances they pretty much hang out and mess around with friends, or dont log on again until some more new content comes along.

So, new player mindset (unless this is their 1st multi-player game ever) is that - grind gear to end game and do leet content to brag about in WC.

I come into game needing no gear cause at some point (early for the alt; who knows when for the new player) I get uber gears that will carry me to 60.

Dont gotta learn skills, farm any mats except for quests, nothing...

Dont gotta buy nothing from anyone my level, dead economy there. Anyone wanting to make gears and armors cause they are anal like that and want all their secondary skills maxed, well they can just NPC them, right?

So, nothing really to do but grind quests for money that I dont need. Sounds cool for the alt;not sure how interesting and compelling all that is to a new player. Jolly is boring (I know he just got updated, but too late for me. He already burned me out in just one day.) Fortunately, not all the quests are boring. I still have my token that turns me into a turtle that I can Holy Path around Arch with when Im feeling frisky. b:chuckle

I could go on , but if you're not seeing a problem yet, Id just be arguing for the sake of arguing, with no where to go but keep repeating myself, which is neither fun nor interesting for anyone. *shrugs*

If its good, its awesome for alts, I guess. I mean, grinding mobs a while is fun when you first start a game - even if alone. You dont 'know' anything yet, and everything is new. That removed, except for the sake of doing it (no reward to speak of).

Thanks for answering my questions clearly and concisely. Kudos on the resume too. Why dont you just move to Cali? Its a pretty nice place. Good weather, and no matter what part of it you are in, a beach isnt far away.

One voice doesnt cut it though. Its the game through one persons eyes. I see my end as clearly as Im sure you see yours. I may not agree with what you want here, but I see where you are coming from with it. The problem with the one voice thing is, both of us put together, still dont cover everyone.

We both know that most people who play MMOs never bother to post on forums, get to know CMs or GMs, or anything that you have done. You are very accomplished. b:victory

We both know the majority never gets heard - at least NOT until its too late to avoid it. b:thanks

Sorry for the wall of text, but be happy I didnt reply to every little thing. b:chuckle

And sorry again, but I had to get rid of your two smilies in the quote so that mine would post. b:cute

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

You make a good point from your perspective.

We can flip the coin too...let's look at the game from the new players perspective shall we? Or, new alts for that matter.

If leveling is as easy and non-involved as everyone claims it now is, that's a good thing for new players who play other MMOs and understand that the point of any game is to get to endgame, and do instances, and once the player base runs out of new instances they pretty much hang out and mess around with friends, or dont log on again until some more new content comes along.

So, new player mindset (unless this is their 1st multi-player game ever) is that - grind gear to end game and do leet content to brag about in WC.

I come into game needing no gear cause at some point (early for the alt; who knows when for the new player) I get uber gears that will carry me to 60.

Dont gotta learn skills, farm any mats except for quests, nothing...

Dont gotta buy nothing from anyone my level, dead economy there. Anyone wanting to make gears and armors cause they are anal like that and want all their secondary skills maxed, well they can just NPC them, right?

So, nothing really to do but grind quests for money that I dont need. Sounds cool for the alt;not sure how interesting and compelling all that is to a new player. Jolly is boring (I know he just got updated, but too late for me. He already burned me out in just one day.) Fortunately, not all the quests are boring. I still have my token that turns me into a turtle that I can Holy Path around Arch with when Im feeling frisky. b:chuckle

I could go on , but if you're not seeing a problem yet, Id just be arguing for the sake of arguing, with no where to go but keep repeating myself, which is neither fun nor interesting for anyone. *shrugs*

If its good, its awesome for alts, I guess. I mean, grinding mobs a while is fun when you first start a game - even if alone. You dont 'know' anything yet, and everything is new. That removed, except for the sake of doing it (no reward to speak of).

Thanks for answering my questions clearly and concisely. Kudos on the resume too. Why dont you just move to Cali? Its a pretty nice place. Good weather, and no matter what part of it you are in, a beach isnt far away.

One voice doesnt cut it though. Its the game through one persons eyes. I see my end as clearly as Im sure you see yours. I may not agree with what you want here, but I see where you are coming from with it. The problem with the one voice thing is, both of us put together, still dont cover everyone.

We both know that most people who play MMOs never bother to post on forums, get to know CMs or GMs, or anything that you have done. You are very accomplished. b:victory

We both know the majority never gets heard - at least NOT until its too late to avoid it. b:thanks

Sorry for the wall of text, but be happy I didnt reply to every little thing. b:chuckle

And sorry again, but I had to get rid of your two smilies in the quote so that mine would post. b:cute

Ever heard of an old saying that one person can make a difference? From reading sylens response to you it looks like hes trying to do just that. So lets take a look at the real facts here.

1. Starter areas are literally ghost towns.
2. New alts/players play alone most of the time till they hit bout 70-90.
3. hypering in FF became active when players decided to flock there for their lvls stead of enjoying the low lvl content.
4. It put a major dent in pws playerbase when the plvling started causing alot of the old players to vacate.
5. When we had the Dead hypers in frost week, it actually did revitalize the game where some of the old players were coming back to play the game. (too bad it only lasted a week)

What the point sylen is making is that regardless of this major impact to revitalize the game itself stead of keeping it in a state where it would cause even more good players to just quit cause things are either expensive or not fun due to them playing alone without any other interaction with others. Why do you think we keep getting threads here on the forums asking the question " Is the game worth coming back to since i quit over ?" fill in the blank answer. But if we put a lvl cap on frost players would shift their attention to other things and ways of lvling stead of just spending all their time in one instance lvling up.

K lets take a look at a new alt then"

Someone has a 100+ main with Nirv s3-r9 type gear so they make an alt. they start in the starter towns, do bout the first 6-8 quests and they see its dead, quiet and not fun for em cause theirs no one around to talk to. so they decide on hypering frost cause everyone else is doing it right? So they give some of their main toons money to help plvl up their latest alt in FC, world chat bout 3-4x seeing if anyone is doing plvl runs which costs bout 250k or so per run. they do bout 4-5 runs in ff and has found out that they are 60 or 70s. (they so far have skipped over half the lvls and content spent in 1 instance) they do their cultis along the way but thats all they do cause ya need better skills right? After they do all their cultis up till bout 60 or 70, they join a bh 59 or 69 pyro to which where they take agro from the tank who might be the same lvl range as they are. the squad keeps telling em to control agro but doesnt listen and keeps doing what they been doing all that time. So the squad leader boots em and they end up going back to doing plvling in frost while the rest of the squad in bh has just completed the run without him and it went smoothly.

So tell me, how does that differ from your viewpoint coming from the new alts or players huh? Seems like to me that alot of players would get upset at him/her before they even reached 90 much less 100. To me dragging someone along in a bh run and just mooching off em is just as bad as someone who plvled their way to the top. Ofc you'll always find lazy players who dont like the low to mid lvl content cause they got bored of it. heres one thing that they didnt do the 3rd to 5th time around doing the same mob kills, boss kills and quests. they didnt want to make it fun cause they didnt use their imaginations long enough to try something new for a change even though the quests are still the same. If new players are going to think that the quests are boring cause of how many mobs they gotta kill, how they gotta do questing all alone without someone who is their same lvl range to do it with em or for a new alt thinking its boring cause they've done it a dozen times.

Theirs a big difference between doing an oracle fest on lvling compared to frostlvling. oracles only gave ya exp from what the book had which means there was a limit to how much exp ya got. plvling in frost is unlimited to where anyone with hypers can run it as many times as they want long as they got hypers. oracles were cheaper to buy than what hypers are selling for now. Plus the catshops up at anglers village who were selling oracles for the wicked pirate, they arent there now cause they'd be just sitting their gaining nothing but watching the few players who come by their for teleporting to where ever. (on HT server ofc) I can say this much though for sure, if pw would put a lvl cap on frost, players would adapt to it and change their ways of lvling. Like others have said theres BH,WQ,PQ, CS, and PV.

Riverwell - Archosaur

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

so how exactly do you explain all the people that chose FC over the spectacular gaming experience of killing a mob 100000000000000000 times? are you *that* arrogant to think that they are lsot soulds in need of rescuing?

Hypering FC for eighty or ninety levels isn't spectacular gameplay either. I would even argue that it's less-so. Neither is grinding mobs. What makes spectacular gameplay in an MMO is the social aspect of it, and there is none in mid level gameplay right now.

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I did it already a few times, the whole of it. I don't want to be forced to do it again if I want an alt. No one forces you to powerlevel so go quest and do content. If you try there are going to be people doing it.

I do quest, I do content, and there aren't people doing it. The only time I see other people doing open map mob killing is if the mobs are required for base quest. You can't just say "go quest and people will be there" because that's not how it works.

Brillance - Raging Tide

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What the point sylen is making is that regardless of this major impact to revitalize the game itself stead of keeping it in a state where it would cause even more good players to just quit cause things are either expensive or not fun due to them playing alone without any other interaction with others. Why do you think we keep getting threads here on the forums asking the question " Is the game worth coming back to since i quit over ?"

Could it be just players trolling the game, especially when the player base trolls back - 'aw naw!'? No one has quit over FC, lol. Not yet anyway, not anyone that actually played the game. People quit over gear imbalance and cost of gameplay. People will even quit over not being able to control a game.



Someone has a 100+ main with Nirv s3-r9 type gear so they make an alt. they start in the starter towns, do bout the first 6-8 quests and they see its dead, quiet and not fun for em cause theirs no one around to talk to. so they decide on hypering frost cause everyone else is doing it right? So they give some of their main toons money to help plvl up their latest alt in FC, world chat bout 3-4x seeing if anyone is doing plvl runs which costs bout 250k or so per run. they do bout 4-5 runs in ff and has found out that they are 60 or 70s. (they so far have skipped over half the lvls and content spent in 1 instance) they do their cultis along the way but thats all they do cause ya need better skills right? After they do all their cultis up till bout 60 or 70, they join a bh 59 or 69 pyro to which where they take agro from the tank who might be the same lvl range as they are. the squad keeps telling em to control agro but doesnt listen and keeps doing what they been doing all that time. So the squad leader boots em and they end up going back to doing plvling in frost while the rest of the squad in bh has just completed the run without him and it went smoothly.

So tell me, how does that differ from your viewpoint coming from the new alts or players huh?

New players dont know about FC, and if the starter towns are empty, they might never learn about FC. How does nerfing FC get that new player someone on their level to play with though? All anyone has to do is Jolly, Lucid and RoR to level these days, in effect actually using less content than they do in FC. Still cant force anyone to do content.


Seems like to me that alot of players would get upset at him/her before they even reached 90 much less 100.

So they need like a warning on the game, before anyone makes an account - like: "If you are not already Pro, this game is too leet for you - although its mechanics are not rocket science. Please do not make an account if you plan on sucking as a player, noobing around, or just playing for fun. The playerbase is not into fun - they are all too Pro."



To me dragging someone along in a bh run and just mooching off em is just as bad as someone who plvled their way to the top. Ofc you'll always find lazy players who dont like the low to mid lvl content cause they got bored of it. heres one thing that they didnt do the 3rd to 5th time around doing the same mob kills, boss kills and quests. they didnt want to make it fun cause they didnt use their imaginations long enough to try something new for a change even though the quests are still the same. If new players are going to think that the quests are boring cause of how many mobs they gotta kill, how they gotta do questing all alone without someone who is their same lvl range to do it with em or for a new alt thinking its boring cause they've done it a dozen times.

Theirs a big difference between doing an oracle fest on lvling compared to frostlvling. oracles only gave ya exp from what the book had which means there was a limit to how much exp ya got. plvling in frost is unlimited to where anyone with hypers can run it as many times as they want long as they got hypers. oracles were cheaper to buy than what hypers are selling for now. Plus the catshops up at anglers village who were selling oracles for the wicked pirate, they arent there now cause they'd be just sitting their gaining nothing but watching the few players who come by their for teleporting to where ever. (on HT server ofc) I can say this much though for sure, if pw would put a lvl cap on frost, players would adapt to it and change their ways of lvling. Like others have said theres BH,WQ,PQ, CS, and PV.

[/COLOR]

I did all the quests 3 more times besides my Main up until level 2x. Im not pleveling them instead in FC either. When I get the urge, I can just log in and do Lucids for an hour or 2 a day on them all - which Im not even doing that lately.

Nice someone thinks they can force me to do something else. You do realize you can force me to find another game eventually too? The only people who will be effected are those that cant leave because of the thousands of dollars they have put into PW. They cant walk away and still feel good about themselves after that.

No new players - outrageous pricing to get and play to and fully enjoy endgame.

Heck, if you want only a few decked-out high-levels playing PW, just poke a GM and tell them to close the gate, and raise prices in the Boutique. They can save money by figuring out how to take it down to one server, and the leets can PK each other all day long, while exploring the content those players want to force others to explore.

Sounds like Heaven doesnt it? b:chuckle

No need to worry about people asking them to advertise the game, make the gear grind what its supposed to be - profitable, but not a complete pillaging of the playerbase's wallet, etc.

Does anyone know of a more legitimate MMO, that costs more than PW to play as every gamer expects to play - grinding gears to endgame, and then doing leet content to brag about in WC? Heck, do you know of a legitimate MMO that charges you to speak in WC, other than by right of your subscription fee?

Unfortunately for the High Level Current Player Utopia, in a capitalistic enterprise, one needs to expand their markets to stay soluble. Good luck removing content, before you have secured any new players. *shrugs*

PWI will change the face of capitalism too, if they can figure out how to reduce a market, and still stay viable and soluble.

_Aphrael_ - Sanctuary

Am i the only one who longs for the way the game used to be. When i first started playing the highest lvl player on sanctuary was only lvl96. Hypers didnt exist, BH didnt exist, FC and nirvana didnt exist lol even the tideborn didnt exist.

Yes every quest had you killing 30-80 of the same mob for only 15-60k exp and yes there was a lot of grinding but there were hundreds of people doing the same quests. You left west archo to do the dozen quests beween there and the mines and there were so many players there you couldnt find any mobs to kill.

I am not saying all the new additions are bad, i quite liked nirvana when it 1st came out, i was working on my TT99 armour at the time and it gave me another level to work for afterwards.

For me the whole thing started to go south when the 1st packs were released, as soon as the best luck tokens appeared gold went form around 120-150k each up to over a million in a few weeks and then they bought out rank 9 and made it possible to buy it in the boutique. Up until then if you had the best gear you had worked hard for it and you knew how to play the game. Plus it was a difficult game the 1st dozen times i took a 6man squad in to TT3-3 we got slaughtered and we enjoyed it, now people just solo it.

In my opinion it should never be possible for an endgame instance to be soloed regardless of how powerful you are.

I would bet that PWE would gain thousands of loyal customers who have never played the game before if they put up a few servers with the game the way it was back then. Keep the tideborn and the earthguard but get rid of hypers(or make them so that once activated they cannot be turned off so they work when you are grinding mobs for an hour). Get rid of FC and roll back nirvana to how it was when first released. Make the quests somewhere between the two extremes by keeping the exp they give now but making them 20-30 kills required.

Rant Ends and i am curious how many people would join me if thye made such a server.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Riverwell - Archosaur wrote: »

Hypering FC for eighty or ninety levels isn't spectacular gameplay either.

perhaps but unlike you I don't demand that grinding should be removed so everyone will be forced into FC. I say: let people chose what they want to do

I would even argue that it's less-so. Neither is grinding mobs. What makes spectacular gameplay in an MMO is the social aspect of it

according to you. do you really claim that what *you* enjoy in the MMORPG is the one true way to derive pleasure from an MMORPG?,

and there is none in mid level gameplay right now.

I do quest, I do content, and there aren't people doing it. The only time I see other people doing open map mob killing is if the mobs are required for base quest. You can't just say "go quest and people will be there" because that's not how it works.

so let me get this straight. you want people to socialise with while grinding so you want to force them against their will to grind. why don't you go FC and chat while walking in

_Aphrael_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Am i the only one who longs for the way the game used to be.

no. it's the same thing with old people missing the old days. as time passes, only the memory of peacefully grinding in flowered hills remain along with the bestest of people while you forget endless raging about KS

Up until then if you had the best gear you had worked hard for it and you knew how to play the game

or sell gold for coins and buy the mats. and you know what? even games where you can't do that and even with auto-bind gear, people still pay others to have their gear farmed. a magic isolated sphere where RL money doesn't matter? that doesnt exist.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

so let me get this straight. you want people to socialise with while grinding so you want to force them against their will to grind. why don't you go FC and chat while walking in

"force them to grind against their will" <-- This is spin. No one is forced to do anything. Are people forced to do spiritual cultivation against their will? Of course not. The game provides rewards for performing certain activities. This encourages certain behaviors with the promise of success. Preferring a different set of tasks to encourage a different set of behaviors is not worthy of vilification.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

no. it's the same thing with old people missing the old days. as time passes, only the memory of peacefully grinding in flowered hills remain along with the bestest of people while you forget endless raging about KS

I'm neither old (or so I think) nor did I rage endlessly. This is another pejorative that addresses the debater instead of the debate.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

or sell gold for coins and buy the mats. and you know what? even games where you can't do that and even with auto-bind gear, people still pay others to have their gear farmed. a magic isolated sphere where RL money doesn't matter? that doesnt exist.

The non-existence of perfection does not negate the argument for improvement.

I think that something needs to be done to stop new players from bypassing the game.
Feel free to disagree with me but let me assure you that I don't kick puppies or trip old people, so I guess those can't be used to negate my opinion.

Barbarz - Dreamweaver

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ever heard of an old saying that one person can make a difference? From reading sylens response to you it looks like hes trying to do just that. So lets take a look at the real facts here.

1. Starter areas are literally ghost towns.

it's beenn like that since 2010

2. New alts/players play alone most of the time till they hit bout 70-90.

true, not much of a content there. Unless you consider the "go kill 10 rats" something amazing and that's a really low standard

3. hypering in FF became active when players decided to flock there for their lvls stead of enjoying the low lvl content.

again, "kill 10 rats and bring me back their balls" is not much of a content.

4. It put a major dent in pws playerbase when the plvling started causing alot of the old players to vacate.

Proof please? you pull out statistics out of your **** to support your points?
I can speculate it's exactly the opposite, because old players could re-roll an alt and not take a year to get to 100.

5. When we had the Dead hypers in frost week, it actually did revitalize the game where some of the old players were coming back to play the game. (too bad it only lasted a week)

People knew FC will be fixed. There was no 2x event at the time, WS/TT/Nirvana was not worth farming so what else could ppl do to raise alts? well...go zhen for the old time sake.

What the point sylen is making is that regardless of this major impact to revitalize the game itself stead of keeping it in a state where it would cause even more good players to just quit cause things are either expensive or not fun due to them playing alone without any other interaction with others. Why do you think we keep getting threads here on the forums asking the question " Is the game worth coming back to since i quit over ?" fill in the blank answer. But if we put a lvl cap on frost players would shift their attention to other things and ways of lvling stead of just spending all their time in one instance lvling up.

void speculation again... You're not the speaker for the playerbase, no one elected you in such position from what I'm aware.

Someone has a 100+ main with Nirv s3-r9 type gear so they make an alt. they start in the starter towns, do bout the first 6-8 quests and they see its dead, quiet and not fun for em cause theirs no one around to talk to. so they decide on hypering frost cause everyone else is doing it right? So they give some of their main toons money to help plvl up their latest alt in FC, ....

I REALLY don't think any respectable R9rrr would buy FC unless in rare occasions. Really. ANY R9rrr can solo FC for their own alt. It's not making economic sense, and you know why? instead of losing 200K for each big room with your alt ppl can make 1 mil by selling 5 spots in the big room with the alt. And a pro tip for you: clearing full FC after big room will get your alt as much xp as big room + heads (so you're basically doubling XP/FC run) and you get 2 (or 4 now with 2x) flawless shards that you can use for the alt's gear. WHY would anyone not do that? I begin to think your knowledge and understanding of this game is very limited

So tell me, how does that differ from your viewpoint coming from the new alts or players huh? Seems like to me that alot of players would get upset at him/her before they even reached 90 much less 100. To me dragging someone along in a bh run and just mooching off em is just as bad as someone who plvled their way to the top. Ofc you'll always find lazy players who dont like the low to mid lvl content cause they got bored of it. heres one thing that they didnt do the 3rd to 5th time around doing the same mob kills, boss kills and quests. they didnt want to make it fun cause they didnt use their imaginations long enough to try something new for a change even though the quests are still the same. If new players are going to think that the quests are boring cause of how many mobs they gotta kill, how they gotta do questing all alone without someone who is their same lvl range to do it with em or for a new alt thinking its boring cause they've done it a dozen times.

you canno force people to get better by making mandatory to get through low level content. It does not make any reasonable sense. There will always be good players and bad players.

Theirs a big difference between doing an oracle fest on lvling compared to frostlvling.

nope, there is none. The only small difference with oracle you kill one mobs , with FC you kill heads in squad.

oracles only gave ya exp from what the book had which means there was a limit to how much exp ya got.

nope, there is no limit how many oracles you can use. FC powerleveling at the moment is more cost effective than oracles. If FC was lets say closed, people will powerlevel via oracles. We will get again the endless queues of ppl killing the spider and the pirate.
I have a feeling you haven't been around for long enough to see how dreadful the oracle powerleveling was.

plvling in frost is unlimited to where anyone with hypers can run it as many times as they want long as they got hypers.

10 runs/day, no more.

oracles were cheaper to buy than what hypers are selling for now. Plus the catshops up at anglers village who were selling oracles for the wicked pirate,

I cannot belive you're trying to compare the price of apples with the price of bananas.

I can say this much though for sure, if pw would put a lvl cap on frost, players would adapt to it and change their ways of lvling. Like others have said theres BH,WQ,PQ, CS, and PV.

you just dont get this game don't you? Now I understand why you defend so much mid level, because high level is just beyond your level of comprehention. FC closed would mean oracle xp farm, nothing more nothing less. There will not be any midlevel benefit to it, it will just create a market for people that will buy tokens-make oracke-sell. Which will raise token prices which will make the life of a new character even worse.
Really, you just don't get this game.

bluestuffzzz

Barbarz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

it's beenn like that since 2010

true, not much of a content there. Unless you consider the "go kill 10 rats" something amazing and that's a really low standard

again, "kill 10 rats and bring me back their balls" is not much of a content.

Proof please? you pull out statistics out of your **** to support your points?
I can speculate it's exactly the opposite, because old players could re-roll an alt and not take a year to get to 100.

People knew FC will be fixed. There was no 2x event at the time, WS/TT/Nirvana was not worth farming so what else could ppl do to raise alts? well...go zhen for the old time sake.


void speculation again... You're not the speaker for the playerbase, no one elected you in such position from what I'm aware.



I REALLY don't think any respectable R9rrr would buy FC unless in rare occasions. Really. ANY R9rrr can solo FC for their own alt. It's not making economic sense, and you know why? instead of losing 200K for each big room with your alt ppl can make 1 mil by selling 5 spots in the big room with the alt. And a pro tip for you: clearing full FC after big room will get your alt as much xp as big room + heads (so you're basically doubling XP/FC run) and you get 2 (or 4 now with 2x) flawless shards that you can use for the alt's gear. WHY would anyone not do that? I begin to think your knowledge and understanding of this game is very limited


you canno force people to get better by making mandatory to get through low level content. It does not make any reasonable sense. There will always be good players and bad players.


nope, there is none. The only small difference with oracle you kill one mobs , with FC you kill heads in squad.


nope, there is no limit how many oracles you can use. FC powerleveling at the moment is more cost effective than oracles. If FC was lets say closed, people will powerlevel via oracles. We will get again the endless queues of ppl killing the spider and the pirate.
I have a feeling you haven't been around for long enough to see how dreadful the oracle powerleveling was.


10 runs/day, no more.

I cannot belive you're trying to compare the price of apples with the price of bananas.


you just dont get this game don't you? Now I understand why you defend so much mid level, because high level is just beyond your level of comprehention. FC closed would mean oracle xp farm, nothing more nothing less. There will not be any midlevel benefit to it, it will just create a market for people that will buy tokens-make oracke-sell. Which will raise token prices which will make the life of a new character even worse.
Really, you just don't get this game.

Agreed on most points, but let's look at this under the theoretical situation of FF being closed or hypers not being able to get used in the instance (identical to PW-CN). I suspect that while oracles probably will be used a lot, hypers will come into play via zhen/fishing, and PV will surely be used more often.

While it's true that back in the day, oracles were the primary means for leveling when tokens came out; since then, hypers have been implemented into all areas of the game, and PV was implemented as well.

Barbarz - Dreamweaver

true, some of the new additions to the game could eat up a bit of the oracle market. But comparing PV/zhen with Hypers on to oracles farming I see the big majority still using oracles. For PV/zhen you need a squad, preferably a competent one to actually be productive. With oracles you need to be able to kill 1 mob, you don't depend on anyone. You can do it for hours if you can afford the oracles, there is no limit to it.
I know ppl that raised alts in FC doing like 1-2 runs/day when they are bored because it takes 30 min to clear an FC and you make some money out of it. Zhenning on hypers it's 1h at most, after that you need to wait 24h. It's a limitation that will favor oracle usage now that ppl actually want to level up the alts FAST
And living through both PWI eras, one with oracle and now with FC, I really, really prefer the FC babies to the oracle ones.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

"force them to grind against their will" <-- This is spin. No one is forced to do anything. Are people forced to do spiritual cultivation against their will? Of course not. The game provides rewards for performing certain activities. This encourages certain behaviors with the promise of success. Preferring a different set of tasks to encourage a different set of behaviors is not worthy of vilification.

If they were to take off FC, people who want to power level would either find out a new "spot" or stop it. Which would pretty much force people to not power level. Major thing in this game is, if you take away power leveling, accessing endgame content is a long way to go by any mmo standards. So yes, it is in fact forcing people to do other things for their goals. I am not saying it would be a bad thing if leveling in this game was also far easier outside of power leveling. Well its not hard, just takes a lot of time and thus effort.

In most successful mmo so far I managed to hit level cap inside a week w/o any power leveling. Our power leveling gets people to 100(which isnt level cap) in week or two. I am only pointing this out as leveling in this game is anything but quick. Really best option to fix the issue would simply promote other ways of leveling, not take away option of FC. But then again its same as irl, some people see some issue somewhere and only way they can think of fixing it is completely banning anything related to it.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

"force them to grind against their will" <-- This is spin. No one is forced to do anything. Are people forced to do spiritual cultivation against their will? Of course not. The game provides rewards for performing certain activities. This encourages certain behaviors with the promise of success. Preferring a different set of tasks to encourage a different set of behaviors is not worthy of vilification.

OP (i suppose) wants to ban lowbies from FC so that they return to questing to level (they'll probably do oracles or buy seeker zhenning though).

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

I'm neither old (or so I think) nor did I rage endlessly. This is another pejorative that addresses the debater instead of the debate.

I was referring to the rose-glass tinted view of the past that a lot of people have.

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

The non-existence of perfection does not negate the argument for improvement.

fair enough

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

I think that something needs to be done to stop new players from bypassing the game.
Feel free to disagree with me but let me assure you that I don't kick puppies or trip old people, so I guess those can't be used to negate my opinion.

isn't r9rr a step towards that? you need to run a ton of WS/lunar for badges even if you buy the molds. previously I could have a full tt99/g15 set without setting foot in TT/nirvy; without even playing the game. Now, although the base is in the boutique, someone with r9rr must have played the game (or hired someone to play his toon which is more difficult than just buying mats)

I REALLY don't think any respectable R9rrr would buy FC unless in rare occasions. Really. ANY R9rrr can solo FC for their own alt.

depends on class. even a r9rr caster will spend quite a bit of time/pots to do FC. but even with a 5aps g16+10 sin for whom a solo FC takes 20m I prefer to buy FC (if I'm going to do it in a squad; typically I just bring my alt and kill stuff with sin) since I can make more money by buying FC and farming something else during that time.

Riverwell - Archosaur

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

according to you. do you really claim that what *you* enjoy in the MMORPG is the one true way to derive pleasure from an MMORPG?

That large part of a massively multi-player online role playing game is playing with other people? Of course there are other ways to get enjoyment from the game, the graphics, the storyline, the playstyle, etc, however eventually you're forced to squad to do stuff, it's helpful to have a guild to play the game with, because the social aspect is a heavy factor to this game. I don't really see your point here...

so let me get this straight. you want people to socialise with while grinding so you want to force them against their will to grind. why don't you go FC and chat while walking in


no. it's the same thing with old people missing the old days. as time passes, only the memory of peacefully grinding in flowered hills remain along with the bestest of people while you forget endless raging about KS.

You're acting like it's FC or grinding. The most common argument in this thread against level restricting hypers is "People don't want to grind blah blah" but PWI already implemented MANY game aspects to help level before FC that don't involve grinding.

-Bounty Hunter
-Cube of Fate
-Public Quest
-Pheonix Valley
-Alpha, Delta, Gamma
-Jones
-Lucigold

So the argument that we want to level restrict hypers so that we can "force everyone to grind" is ridiculous.

Toliman - Raging Tide

Riverwell - Archosaur wrote: »

You're acting like it's FC or grinding. The most common argument in this thread against level restricting hypers is "People don't want to grind blah blah" but PWI already implemented MANY game aspects to help level before FC that don't involve grinding.

-Bounty Hunter
-Cube of Fate
-Public Quest
-Pheonix Valley
-Alpha, Delta, Gamma
-Jones
-Lucigold

So the argument that we want to level restrict hypers so that we can "force everyone to grind" is ridiculous.

BH squads are rare for level 81-89.
Cube of Fate is useless or even deadly and expensive until 95+
Public Quest is level limited and it is not available for levels 81-94.
Phoenix Valley is rare or even absent.
Alpha, Delta, Gamma - was not able to see, what it mean. Are squads for these dungeons exist even ?
Jones - not available for 80+level range.
Lucigold - not available for 80+level range or my time zone.

And only option for me is grinding and quests.

I know, that it is boring, but since I have not money for high level equipment it is not problem for me.

Here is example of messages in World Chat.

Riverwell - Archosaur

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

BH squads are rare for level 81-89.
Cube of Fate is useless or even deadly and expensive until 95+
Public Quest is level limited and it is not available for levels 81-94.
Phoenix Valley is rare or even absent.
Alpha, Delta, Gamma - was not able to see, what it mean. Are squads for these dungeons exist even ?
Jones - not available for 80+level range.
Lucigold - not available for 80+level range or my time zone.

And only option for me is grinding and quests.

I know, that it is boring, but since I have not money for high level equipment it is not problem for me.

Here is example of messages in World Chat.

But you're exactly stating the point. We have so many ways to level, and they're not being utilized because everyone is in FC instead. And it doesn't matter that these things aren't available for 80+ because a level restricted Hyper FC would probably start at 80.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Wow... as happy as I am to see this discussion return, it looks like it's all back to the same old rationalizations for skipping the game. -_-

I suppose it's too much to hope that synchroze has said anything on the subject?

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Wow... as happy as I am to see this discussion return, it looks like it's all back to the same old rationalizations for skipping the game. -_-

I suppose it's too much to hope that synchroze has said anything on the subject?

Yes, too much to hope. I'm currently seeking other ways to get the word to those that need to hear it. Unfortunately, work has me extremely busy so I haven't had a lot of free time to do something for a game.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

Maybe I'm in the minority here and my mindset is different, but people say they dont want to grind, but what in essence is FC? It's just a grind that people so happen hyper on. The same grinding instance over and over and over and over and over...and over and over and over and over.

Maybe i don't care about leveling fast, and find it boring over level 100, because then its the same grinds with the daily BHs over and over and over and over. Sure, there is the quest to make enough coin to get better gear, but meh, I don't care about that either.

Then there are those that don't even do a semi-full FC to the heads room when they are perfectly capable of it, but instead wc from early levels up to even level 99. "Level 98 wtb heads"....seriously? Or "level 31 want to buy b/m/h"

But try to get a BH39, 51, 59, done with a proper squad and 9 times out of 10 its impossible because some will normally drop out after they ask where the high level is? It takes too long. It's too hard. I might die. Or worse, no one wants to do it because they are too busy with standing around begging for FC.

I guess I'm just to the point, the game is tired. It's done. It's over, and my idea of fun is too old school.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide wrote: »

Maybe I'm in the minority here and my mindset is different, but people say they dont want to grind, but what in essence is FC? It's just a grind that people so happen hyper on. The same grinding instance over and over and over and over and over...and over and over and over and over.

Maybe i don't care about leveling fast, and find it boring over level 100, because then its the same grinds with the daily BHs over and over and over and over. Sure, there is the quest to make enough coin to get better gear, but meh, I don't care about that either.

Then there are those that don't even do a semi-full FC to the heads room when they are perfectly capable of it, but instead wc from early levels up to even level 99. "Level 98 wtb heads"....seriously? Or "level 31 want to buy b/m/h"

But try to get a BH39, 51, 59, done with a proper squad and 9 times out of 10 its impossible because some will normally drop out after they ask where the high level is? It takes too long. It's too hard. I might die. Or worse, no one wants to do it because they are too busy with standing around begging for FC.

I guess I'm just to the point, the game is tired. It's done. It's over, and my idea of fun is too old school.

Instances like FF promote more collaboration between players, which is why many of those who can even powerlevel themselves to 100 (like myself who regularly powerlevels people on my mystic) choose only to clear enough to fill a squad easier.

This is in contrast to simply grinding and questing..

They are not the same at all or even remotely as similar as being portrayed. Merely because one can continuously do the same instance doesn't lump FF with grinding.

I do agree with the premise of not allowing hypered FF for lower levels but that ship has sailed long ago.. so.. the logical thing to do is look elsewhere.. develop something new, and we all know how that script goes.

Little will be done outside meager/minor development, changing current instances to be more difficult (rather than just creating new content that's more difficult), and of course updating the cash shop. Hence why PWI doesn't retain it's player base very well.

Brillance - Raging Tide

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide wrote: »

Maybe I'm in the minority here and my mindset is different, but people say they dont want to grind, but what in essence is FC? It's just a grind that people so happen hyper on. The same grinding instance over and over and over and over and over...and over and over and over and over.

Because they get a reward. In many other cases they do not get a reward for doing BHs. The XP isnt that great, and Ive already mentioned other important problems that make people not want to do it, that I do not care to repeat.

Maybe i don't care about leveling fast, and find it boring over level 100, because then its the same grinds with the daily BHs over and over and over and over. Sure, there is the quest to make enough coin to get better gear, but meh, I don't care about that either.

God bless you if you figure out how to get just the R9 ring by questing. Please share when you do. Why would you want any other gear?

Then there are those that don't even do a semi-full FC to the heads room when they are perfectly capable of it, but instead wc from early levels up to even level 99. "Level 98 wtb heads"....seriously? Or "level 31 want to buy b/m/h"

There is no reason not to do a semi run to heads. Sort of the whole point. I will agree no one ever does a full FC. Ive never met Holeen, and I played during a time when grinding FC as soon as you could was the shizzle thingy to do.

But try to get a BH39, 51, 59, done with a proper squad and 9 times out of 10 its impossible because some will normally drop out after they ask where the high level is? It takes too long. It's too hard. I might die. Or worse, no one wants to do it because they are too busy with standing around begging for FC.

Do you really think you cant get a BH squad because, what? 20? 50? 100 players are busy grinding FC while you are online that would otherwise be capable, ready and willing to do low level BHs? Awesome you got it like that on our server. b:victory

I guess I'm just to the point, the game is tired. It's done. It's over, and my idea of fun is too old school.

Maybe, Idk. I would say you are saying your idea of fun would be better served if there were new players coming into the game, and on that point, I would easily agree with you.

The people in starter cities that never talk and run around like they know what they are doing, and only want to join you when it benefits them, are someones alt. They have played before and arent interested in constantly reliving every little quest and instance. Im not sure one would want to play with them either. There are some amazingly nice ones, but the amount of venomous & greedy ones seems overwhelming sometimes. *shrugs*

EDIT: Our server..b:chuckle

_Aphrael_ - Sanctuary

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide wrote: »

But try to get a BH39, 51, 59, done with a proper squad and 9 times out of 10 its impossible because some will normally drop out after they ask where the high level is? It takes too long. It's too hard. I might die. Or worse, no one wants to do it because they are too busy with standing around begging for FC.

I guess I'm just to the point, the game is tired. It's done. It's over, and my idea of fun is too old school.

I'm not so concerned about BH squads having high levels in them to run but i would like to do my FB runs with the correct levels. A squad of 6 players all lvl65-70 with gear we manufactured ourselves running fb69 to see if there a players out there of still killing cenequus and gaurnob the hard way

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

_Aphrael_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm not so concerned about BH squads having high levels in them to run but i would like to do my FB runs with the correct levels. A squad of 6 players all lvl65-70 with gear we manufactured ourselves running fb69 to see if there a players out there of still killing cenequus and gaurnob the hard way

Those two bosses arent hard to kill anyway. Correct levels? That's stupid *** hell. I don't see a level bracket listed by the culti/FB quest, do you? I skip the whole 'FB' thing anyway, people what to spend an hr looking for mobs fine, but I wont be participating.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

It's a lot of the responses to this thread and the original that have made me feel that PWI is doomed. When? Don't know and dont care any longer. As a casual gamer that likes the slow trip from beginning to end, even if it takes a couple of years...when reaching endgame is far to easy to accomplish, the game is no longer for me. As I have said, I will occasionally play my alts, level them slowly, hope to find correct level squads, and when it becomes too much of a chore to do so, as it is quickly becoming, then this chapter in MMOs will be closed, my armor stowed away, my weapons retired, and I will search for some game that has most of what PWI could have been, but doesn't fail miserably at.

The cup has sprung another hole.