Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

Hannsel - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Me thinks you be missing the point.

Let me try to explain this another way.

Arcanes opt for DPH rather than DPS, as has always been the case. They have the best DPH in the game. While APS would be an option for them, they don't because of the lack of spark benefit, otherwise they'd be able to use the same gear setups as HA's that use -int gear and get about the same effectiveness out of it. However, this is not the case, so instead of using gear that would give them the same unsparked effectiveness they use proper gear for their class in order to get the best bang for their buck.

Melees give up nothing to use -int, however the sacrifice would be worth it for casters if they gained an aps and physical attack boost from Demon Spark, or even just a physical attack boost from Sage spark. At least potentially. However this is not the case, rendering an APS setup less efficient for solo play.

The point remains that Arcanes have access to high dps setups, however they are simply less efficient in scenarios where perma sparking is an option such as PvE. PvP, on the other hand, they could get by with it so long as they can keep the target in place via genie or class skills. Oh wait, no they can't, because of Purify Spell weapons all over the place.

its not really an option. aading dex for HA gives accuracy+crit which adds dps. arcanes adding str doesnt affect their main weapon and dex is useless as magic doesnt miss and casters dont evade physical attackers. this is before you consider the stat requirements.

saying arcanes have access to high dps setups is like saying HA have access to channeling setups.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Hannsel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

its not really an option. aading dex for HA gives accuracy+crit which adds dps. arcanes adding str doesnt affect their main weapon and dex is useless as magic doesnt miss and casters dont evade physical attackers. this is before you consider the stat requirements.

saying arcanes have access to high dps setups is like saying HA have access to channeling setups.

You're not very bright are you.

I'm not sure I should even justify your post with a response.

Dex gives the same amount of crit regardless of class, 20 dex = 1% crit. I already mentioned that a high aps build would reduce the usefullness of their main weapon, or render it useless depending on the build. All you did was repeat that, only in a very stupid way. The only significant difference in base attacking stats between melee and arcane would be the accuracy, which is almost nonfactor in PvE.

Dex is useless in a regular build for obvious reasons, but in a -int build it's required. I already stated Arcanes sacrifice their main method of damage to utilize a high aps build, they DO have access to it, simply not as effectively as melee so they don't go for it. If you keep posting nonsense I'm just not going to reply because all I'm doing is repeating myself at this point. Re-read my posts, the information is all there.

Wait, Kni why aren't you replying to this guy? He's replying to my reply to a rebuttal of your points, you deal with him this is all your fault.

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

I win, I have 7.7-8.7k physical attack with my r9rr glaive. I use auto attack in nation wars on occasions to troll people, however with such low dex and accuracy I miss so much b:cry

trands

@ Zanryu : This is getting pretty off-topic, but in the essence you confirmed the 2 points you were contesting. Look at your calcs, the caster with fists is also going at 150 multiplier for auto-attacks. Reread what you said about dex, it is a damage stat for melees. I'm sure you've also seen the multiple threads from barbs and bms about how they consider 200ish dex as optimal, and how they would go with that even if fists requirement weren't an issue.

What I did was putting a different presentation, because mainly Kniraven is throwing around insults on biaised and flawed reasonning, while he's the most 1 sided point of view in this whole thread. Till now, on these 58 pages, the ones against puri proc didn't even manage to clearly state what exactly is the problem with the proc. Then it's the speed buff, then it's the short anti-stun, then it's the multiple undergeared noobs issue, then it's open pk, then it's NW...

I think a cd on puri proc is a decent idea, and I'm pretty sure most casters would accept that kind of tweak. Having it purify only movement debuffs or taking of the speed thingy would also be fine with me. Yeah, it's the BMs turn to be the poor useless class. Poor you, hang in there, it will change. You can't blame the casters for laughing in your face after the general reaction of melees during the time 5 aps was THE thing and the casters were the poor useless class. If you can't stand it, roll a caster yourself. That was the advice we were given when complaining about aps.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

trands wrote: »

@ Zanryu : This is getting pretty off-topic, but in the essence you confirmed the 2 points you were contesting. Look at your calcs, the caster with fists is also going at 150 multiplier for auto-attacks. Reread what you said about dex, it is a damage stat for melees. I'm sure you've also seen the multiple threads from barbs and bms about how they consider 200ish dex as optimal, and how they would go with that even if fists requirement weren't an issue.

Dex doesn't give damage to any class other than Assassins and Archers, it does give every class 1% crit per 20 dex though. One of those two is true melee, with Archers somewhat in the same boat as casters in terms of sacrificing optimal DD with their main weapon in order to utilize an aps setup. I have indeed, however that has nothing to do with an actual damage boost. It is because Dex gives them the accuracy needed to actually hit LA classes.

How is it that people are trying to rebut my points, no scratch that, how is it they find one point to focus on while ignoring everything else and try to rebut it while lacking a basic understanding of game mechanics. Such as how Dexterity actually works.

What I did was putting a different presentation, because mainly Kniraven is throwing around insults on biaised and flawed reasonning, while he's the most 1 sided point of view in this whole thread. Till now, on these 58 pages, the ones against puri proc didn't even manage to clearly state what exactly is the problem with the proc. Then it's the speed buff, then it's the short anti-stun, then it's the multiple undergeared noobs issue, then it's open pk, then it's NW...

That could very well be because Purify Spell offers an advantage in all situations, especially when dealing with people who are unable to compete with the caster in question gear-wise. Saying people against Purify Spell haven't clearly stated what the problem with the proc is, is an ignorant and biased statement. People have very clearly listed the issues with the weapon proc.

I think a cd on puri proc is a decent idea, and I'm pretty sure most casters would accept that kind of tweak. Having it purify only movement debuffs or taking of the speed thingy would also be fine with me. Yeah, it's the BMs turn to be the poor useless class. Poor you, hang in there, it will change. You can't blame the casters for laughing in your face after the general reaction of melees during the time 5 aps was THE thing and the casters were the poor useless class. If you can't stand it, roll a caster yourself. That was the advice we were given when complaining about aps.

We've been the underdog for some time now, yet there are very few complaints. Maybe we should though, seems anyone who does gets bumped to gamebreaking status within 6 months of whatever initial complaint is made. It's not the laughing in people's faces I care about, it's that people seem to be so blind as to how balance is affected, and even more blind as to how strong APS builds actually were. Especially in comparison to R9, which was far superior to those builds. Casters seem to consist of the most ignorant and outspoken players this game has to offer. I can make generalizations too, only mine are based of what I see.

Dem red replies.

EDIT: Had to make my last reply red. It slipped my mind.

Brillance - Raging Tide

trands wrote: »

@ Zanryu :
I think a cd on puri proc is a decent idea, and I'm pretty sure most casters would accept that kind of tweak. Having it purify only movement debuffs or taking of the speed thingy would also be fine with me. Yeah, it's the BMs turn to be the poor useless class. Poor you, hang in there, it will change. You can't blame the casters for laughing in your face after the general reaction of melees during the time 5 aps was THE thing and the casters were the poor useless class. If you can't stand it, roll a caster yourself. That was the advice we were given when complaining about aps.

I agree with most everything you said, however, this would only be fair if it was the same for melee weapons too.

There is currently a thread about dual swords that have a double proc, in this forum. Have the melee procs on cd too, while removing their ability to stack procs, and I would be good with it.

I'm still trying to figure out why we are comparing a magic weapon proc to a continously available thing like APS.

I wholely doubt that this magic weapon proc will make melee useless in any way for anything, but it is nice to think Caster's will have an fairer shot at carrying a flag in NW, and might be included more in other things. Seems the more greedy would like to see that removed, as far as NW is concerned.

I carried a flag successfully once - while someone pushed me along somehow, lol. Mystics and Clerics are the two slowest chars in PWI, yet we both have access to some form of purify spell without a weapon proc. We only have access to speed through Holy Path and potions. If we are saving our coin for gears, we aren't going to waste it on speed potions.

It's not fair to any melee or magic classes that have spent their time and coin to get these weapons, but if they are going to nerf one - they should nerf all, imho. Fair is fair, afterall. *shrugs*

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

I agree with most everything you said, however, this would only be fair if it was the same for melee weapons too.

There is currently a thread about dual swords that have a double proc, in this forum. Have the melee procs on cd too, while removing their ability to stack procs, and I would be good with it.

I'm still trying to figure out why we are comparing a magic weapon proc to a continously available thing like APS.

I wholely doubt that this magic weapon proc will make melee useless in any way for anything, but it is nice to think Caster's will have an equal shot at carrying a flag in NW, and might be included more in other things. Seems the more greedy would like to see that removed, as far as NW is concerned.

I carried a flag successfully once - while someone pushed me along somehow, lol. Mystics and Clerics are the two slowest chars in PWI, yet we both have access to some form of purify spell without a weapon proc. We only have access to speed through Holy Path and potions. If we are saving our coin for gears, we aren't going to waste it on speed potions.

It's not fair to any melee or magic classes that have spent their time and coin to get these weapons, but if they are going to nerf one - they should nerf all, imho. Fair is fair, afterall. *shrugs*

People like to bring up the past, hence the comparison to APS.

I don't see how it's greedy to want it nerfed when Casters shouldn't be doing the things HA is supposed to do when HA gets no such benefit. You don't see really see Melees walking around blasting 20ks out of their *** from 30 meters away now do you?

The nerf all argument holds no value because Purify was added after the fact. That's like saying a nerf to GoF when it was new would justify a nerf to all other procs, when in fact it wouldn't because the previous procs weren't out of balance (and neither is GoF, otherwise there would have been an uprising ages ago. I'm using it as an example)

Purify Spell was added as an aid to Arcanes without properly being put through its paces, it's a broken proc, and should be given a cooldown to balance it out with the procs that pre-date it. It's still a buff to all arcanes, it still does its job, it just ceases to be so broken. Using the excuse of "if we nerf that, nerf this as well because it's fair!" is horrible, because in reality it's not fair. Nerfing something that doesn't need a nerf just because something else that needed it got one would effectively do nothing, and we'd be right back at square one.

trands

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Dem red replies.

1st part : So you're seriously implying crit is not a damage factor ?! Or do you just want me to dig up a number of threads by melees that promote the 200 dex as optimal damage output ?

Plz Sakubatou, could you dig up that thread you made about a true max dex setup ?

2nd part : Yeah, it's casters themselves the problem. b:laugh We need a caster NW and caster pk server. Ofc, purify proc gives an advantage... duh. The point is wether it's disproporional. As many admitted, 1vs1 it isn't. In NW with the flag, compared to other classes speed and immunities without even being hit, it isn't either. In pve, if you think it's an issue, I'll leave that to you as imo any r999 is overkill for pve. Leaves the multiple noob option. I don't see how you can realistically blame a weapon for others not knowing how to smartly react. If you do, like many, I'd accept a cd on the proc as that really isn't an issue for me (noobs on your side will always be a pain in your butt more then a help).
Did you see any other clear issue that was actually objective ? I didn't.

Brillance - Raging Tide

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

People like to bring up the past, hence the comparison to APS.

I don't see how it's greedy to want it nerfed when Casters shouldn't be doing the things HA is supposed to do when HA gets no such benefit. You don't see really see Melees walking around blasting 20ks out of their *** from 30 meters away now do you?

The nerf all argument holds no value because Purify was added after the fact. That's like saying a nerf to GoF when it was new would justify a nerf to all other procs, when in fact it wouldn't because the previous procs weren't out of balance (and neither is GoF, otherwise there would have been an uprising ages ago. I'm using it as an example)

Purify Spell was added as an aid to Arcanes without properly being put through its paces, it's a broken proc, and should be given a cooldown to balance it out with the procs that pre-date it. It's still a buff to all arcanes, it still does its job, it just ceases to be so broken. Using the excuse of "if we nerf that, nerf this as well because it's fair!" is horrible, because in reality it's not fair. Nerfing something that doesn't need a nerf just because something else that needed it got one would effectively do nothing, and we'd be right back at square one.

Square one is equal access for Caster's? There never has been a Square One. b:chuckle

Maybe making a Caster's NW will be the solution? Don't wanna go there, but really, mate. A double attack bonus on a melee weapon sounds rather OP to me.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

trands wrote: »

1st part : So you're seriously implying crit is not a damage factor ?! Or do you just want me to dig up a number of threads by melees that promote the 200 dex as optimal damage output ?

Plz Sakubatou, could you dig up that thread you made about a true max dex setup ?

It's indirect damage, not direct damage. There's a difference. No matter how much Dexterity any class other than an Assassin or Archer puts they will not see a rise or fall in their physical attack. I stated that it gave crit, which is accurate.

2nd part : Yeah, it's casters themselves the problem. b:laugh We need a caster NW and caster pk server. Ofc, purify proc gives an advantage... duh. The point is wether it's disproporional. As many admitted, 1vs1 it isn't. In NW with the flag, compared to other classes speed and immunities without even being hit, it isn't either. In pve, if you think it's an issue, I'll leave that to you as imo any r999 is overkill for pve. Leaves the multiple noob option. I don't see how you can realistically blame a weapon for others not knowing how to smartly react. If you do, like many, I'd accept a cd on the proc as that really isn't an issue for me (noobs on your side will always be a pain in your butt more then a help).
Did you see any other clear issue that was actually objective ? I didn't.

Casters already have a range and damage advantage. Purify proc allows those advantages to be more easily taken advantage of. GoF doesn't allow a BM to take advantage of his natural advantages, it doesn't allow him to tank better. It doesn't allow him to get in close and start locking with ease or reduce damage significantly to make that task easier. Even if people know how to react it's still a pain, as of right now it's the only proc you actually require a strategy to combat, which wouldn't be so horrible if it was balanced with other procs or if everyone else got a weapon proc of comparable power.

Unf dat red.

Brillance - Raging Tide

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Unf dat red.

TWO Attack bonuses is not as good as a random purify and speed bonus?? Seriously??

1 is a 5 second buff, and the other is 5 minutes, and they are reported to stack. Yeah, that's smelleh...*rolls eyes*

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

TWO Attack bonuses is not as good as a random purify and speed bonus?? Seriously??

1 is a 5 second buff, and the other is 5 minutes, and they are reported to stack. Yeah, that's smelleh...*rolls eyes*

Attack bonuses won't ever save you from certain death.

Also, the people asking for a nerf tend to ask for GoF or SB, without giving an actual reason. Tell me, in what what is the proc you're referring to broken, aside from the fact that it gives two procs in one? Does it boost the damage of the user to unbeatable levels? Does it allow for ungodly damage that simply cannot be tanked? Does it allow them to kill faster than any other class? Tell us, how is it broken rather than asking for a nerf because of two buffs that stack. People have given plenty of reason for Purify Spell to be nerfed, give us yours.

Brillance - Raging Tide

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Attack bonuses won't ever save you from certain death.

Attack bonuses will cause certain death. Unless you are making a point of killing R9s, what caster cannot be one-shot by a well geared melee char, or archer?

Also, the people asking for a nerf tend to ask for GoF or SB, without giving an actual reason. Tell me, in what what is the proc you're referring to broken, aside from the fact that it gives two procs in one? Does it boost the damage of the user to unbeatable levels? Does it allow for ungodly damage that simply cannot be tanked? Does it allow them to kill faster than any other class? Tell us, how is it broken rather than asking for a nerf because of two buffs that stack. People have given plenty of reason for Purify Spell to be nerfed, give us yours.

I dont see where anyone other than melee people are claiming the proc is broken - just somehow making Caster's rule in NW and PK - even though they still dont. People have been pointed to the ranking system time and time again. Guess what? Melee still tops the charts (and Archers), even with all this QQing over a magic weapon proc that most Caster's still dont have.

What what?

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

I dont see where anyone other than melee people are claiming the proc is broken - just somehow making Caster's rule in NW and PK - even though they still dont. People have been pointed to the ranking system time and time again. Guess what? Melee still tops the charts (and Archers), even with all this QQing over a magic weapon proc that most Caster's still dont have.

What what?

Take that orange text out of my quote, that's your text not mine. In response to it, if people are so undergeared that an attack bonus of a few k will be enough to seal their fate, then it's not the proc that's broken, it's the difference in gear that's doing the work. If it can't allow you to vastly out-perform people in equal gear then it's not broken. Purify Spell allows this, whatever proc you're talking about? I very much doubt it.

Of course Casters aren't going to complain. It's something that benefits them, that'd be like Melee saying "So... yeah, guys, GoF is OP". It's not, but even if it was the likelihood of a Melee admitting it is extremely slim. Some Arcanes actually have admitted to Purify Spell being somewhat broken, though I can't be bothered to dig it up. You can't really use the ranking system as an example for anything what with the ability to alt kill, kill lower levels in open world PvP, and rake in kills from lower levels in NW/TW. Those results are anything but accurate.

By the why, nice way of avoiding my question. What exactly is broken about the proc you're referring to?

EDIT: Had to add a reply to that orange text.

Kniraven - Lost City

I support a cooldown of Purify Spell.
Every other proc has a cooldown, limited chance to proc in the duration it takes for the wielder to attack. This has a cap, of 5.0 with sin daggers ie the most OP proc example of a melee toon (and this is assuming the sin has g15 nv dags which kind of suck)

Every single other class has over 1 second between chances to proc assuming they're wearing 10x gears of any fashion and have any g16 weapon.


Purify Spell has no effective cooldown, no cap.
It can have over 20 chances to proc in a single second.

Brillance - Raging Tide

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Take that orange text out of my quote, that's your text not mine. In response to it, if people are so undergeared that an attack bonus of a few k will be enough to seal their fate, then it's not the proc that's broken, it's the difference in gear that's doing the work. If it can't allow you to vastly out-perform people in equal gear then it's not broken. Purify Spell allows this, whatever proc you're talking about? I very much doubt it.

Of course Casters aren't going to complain. It's something that benefits them, that'd be like Melee saying "So... yeah, guys, GoF is OP". It's not, but even if it was the likelihood of a Melee admitting it is extremely slim. Some Arcanes actually have admitted to Purify Spell being somewhat broken, though I can't be bothered to dig it up. You can't really use the ranking system as an example for anything what with the ability to alt kill, kill lower levels in open world PvP, and rake in kills from lower levels in NW/TW. Those results are anything but accurate.

By the why, nice way of avoiding my question. What exactly is broken about the proc you're referring to?

EDIT: Had to add a reply to that orange text.

Nope, Im posting in orange, you are using red. lol.

Im not referring to it being broken - you did. Talk in circles much? *shrugs*

Nice way to avoid the fact the chars are balanced, and their weapons do something leet, differently.

I know if anyone takes joy in spawn killing in NW, which it seems like most everyone does, then they are not going for people that can compete with them fairly anyway. Respawn, underleveled, undergeared, with no HP and no mana - bam dead! Rinse and repeat.

I dont see where the high HP and PDef you have anything to fear from a little purification and speed. *shrugs*

If you dont mind my purify spell, my Holy Path, or my buying speed potions to accomplish the same thing - then in actuality, you dont mind the weapon proc either. b:chuckle

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

I support a cooldown of Purify Spell.
Every other proc has a cooldown, limited chance to proc in the duration it takes for the wielder to attack. This has a cap, of 5.0 with sin daggers ie the most OP proc example of a melee toon (and this is assuming the sin has g15 nv dags which kind of suck)

Every single other class has over 1 second between chances to proc assuming they're wearing 10x gears of any fashion and have any g16 weapon.


Purify Spell has no effective cooldown, no cap.
It can have over 20 chances to proc in a single second.

Fine, put your APS on an equal cd and we got a deal, lol.

trands

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Unf dat red.

1st red part : then please, reread what I stated. Bm/barb/seeker are dependant on 2 stats for damage output (direct/indirect, potential, whatever you want to call it, they are based on the balance of both stats, if not pure axe str build would be more viable then a 200 dex build with same weap), and they have the most points free. Casters only get a marginal adventage from crit, while having 0.5 points less per level. Sins and archers get maximum gain all from 1 stat, but got the least points to put there. What I said is also accurate, just another angle to look at it. The system itself isn't too flawed. A revision might be needed considering the amount of stat points you can get from items these days, but that isn't really a matter of the purify proc nor really a matter of the casters being OP. Theoretically, this should even benefit the ones using the most different stat points.

2nd red part : that is why this thread is sooooooo centered around wizard vs bm. The tanky guys got GoF to make up for their weaker point, the damage or better said, their dph specifically. I don't really see the need of putting a cd on that proc, the measures were already taken for that proc not to be too OP anymore. Well, I still find it OP on a caster skill with base damage + weap multiplier + add on, but that's 1 class, 1 skill. The casters got purify proc is pretty much the other way around. But the arguement turns almost exclusively around wizards, a little around psychics while nobody cares about the veno. That itself should ring a bell. Also, nobody states r8r with purify. I wonder why ...

It's more an arguement about wizards being to OP and BMs being to weak. This kind of issue has always been present and shifting around among classes.

I just like the argument as this time I'm at the good side and I can laugh at all those who tried to convince everyone 5 aps was a good thing for casters. It's highly amusing to see those ppl QQ now.

KuruTu - Harshlands

Remove zerk and purge from non-caster class weapons, then we can talk about nerfing Purify b:bye

Kniraven - Lost City

KuruTu - Harshlands wrote: »

Remove zerk and purge from non-caster class weapons, then we can talk about nerfing Purify b:bye

Read the thread before speaking.
A zerk from a melee class = a normal attack from a caster.
Procs were originally put on non-arcane class weapons to provide balance because casters overpowered every other class.

It takes 100 magic to increase the damage modifier on a casters attack.
For every other class it takes 150 str/dex.
400 magic = 600 str/dex

Everyone else can miss, casters can't.

Every single caster class in the game has a continuous passive buff that amps their pdef, this cant be said of all other classes.

Casters attack from a range, every single other class except archer needs to be in melee range.

Casters weapons all have higher damage than those of other classes.

KuruTu - Harshlands

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Read the thread before speaking.
A zerk from a melee class = a normal attack from a caster.
Procs were originally put on non-arcane class weapons to provide balance because casters overpowered every other class.

It takes 100 magic to increase the damage modifier on a casters attack.
For every other class it takes 150 str/dex.
400 magic = 600 str/dex

Everyone else can miss, casters can't.

Every single caster class in the game has a continuous passive buff that amps their pdef, this cant be said of all other classes.

Casters attack from a range, every single other class except archer needs to be in melee range.

Casters weapons all have higher damage than those of other classes.

Zerk crit from DPH sin or seeker can do 10-15kish on me self-buff, how is purify gonna help if charm gets bypassed (note - i have even more def than lot of full r9rr clerics due to def glaive and r9rr armor)?
No need to read thread full of PvE ppl/bunch of QQing sins who can't occult ice and herp derp their target to feel pro anymore. APS builds are dead, but DPH melees can kill easily - if u can't, problem is between chair and keyboard, not in game.
Oh yeah, my 410 evasion makes melee class miss me all day lmao!
If u are a BM and cant keep ur character at melee range with ur control skills (again, purify doesnt proc every hit), u definitely should reroll b:laugh b:bye
Adapt or quit this game, cyas b:thanks

Unholly - Lothranis

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Every single caster class in the game has a continuous passive buff that amps their pdef, this cant be said of all other classes.

Not to mention that in fully buffed pvp there are 2 pdef buffs squad buffs compared to 1 mdef buff squad buff

Decus - Dreamweaver

I don't get why the focus on nerfing APS? APS gear is inferior to any endgame-y set in the game. It's not even close to being equivalent with purify from a usage standpoint. APS is de-emphasized in PvP (thanks to Morai) and PvE now (also thanks to Morai).

Arguing that other procs need a nerf if you balance purify isn't logical. All other endgame procs have a rather obvious limitation: they require attacks. They require intervention. Hell, Blackhole doesn't even proc on every skill.

trands

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Read the thread before speaking.
A zerk from a melee class = a normal attack from a caster.
Procs were originally put on non-arcane class weapons to provide balance because casters overpowered every other class.

It takes 100 magic to increase the damage modifier on a casters attack.
For every other class it takes 150 str/dex.
400 magic = 600 str/dex

Everyone else can miss, casters can't.

Every single caster class in the game has a continuous passive buff that amps their pdef, this cant be said of all other classes.

Casters attack from a range, every single other class except archer needs to be in melee range.

Casters weapons all have higher damage than those of other classes.

I'm still wondering if you're actually serious. Either you have only ever touched a bm, with bm friends only and been in only 100% bm squads, or you're joking.

I'm still curious though, where did you find weapon procs were originally made for balance between melees and casters ?

Northern - Dreamweaver

If you think acanes have higher dph than melees than your smoking some funny stuff. The top attack rankings for a very long time have been dominated by seekers/barbs.

Most normal average geared (no josd only +10 all r93) arcanes are one-two hit by all melees(same gear) except archers who will hit you atleast 3 times in the time it takes you to hit them once with a skill other than the weakest shortest cast skill.

Bms for instance has a stun/paralyze immune run fast and a normal run fast as well as a tele stun, as well as a skill that drags you to them. A wizard for instance has distance shrink only to run fast. I didn't count genie/apoth cause both can have that. Purify helps even that out.
Aps higher than a natural r93 full set up gives has no place in todays pvp.


Arcanes are nowhere near the best or most effective flag runners in nw except on servers full of noobs. Everyone had some perception that purify made casters op therefore those are the first toons the cash shoppers tricked out so it seems like they are such a factor, give it time and as you see more tricked out r93 other classes the casters will not be such a factor. In Nw clearly it is advantageous to have ranged attack, since most likely it is like tw where you have groups of people and it's not a good idea to get close enough for all of them to attack you at once.(even for a purify arcane)

Eoria - Harshlands

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

A zerk from a melee class = a normal attack from a caster.

Have you considered why this is? It's because HA/LA have a higher HP pool in the first place. An equally geared caster will never have as much HP as an equally geared HA/LA solely due to gear. AA needs to be able to hit harder in order to take those targets out.

Now, you CAN argue that stuff like spark combo should be nerfed because it allows mages to hit ridiculous damage on, well, basically everyone. Even other AAs.

Everyone else can miss, casters can't.

They would need to rework evasion/accuracy or include a separate stat for magic evasion/accuracy attached to magic...which would not change too much, honestly. You would just get the occasional miss every now and then like an archer/sin. Or if you would seriously argue that we do mag/dex builds, then archers/sins would rule. Perhaps the real solution to this is to rework stats entirely and attach accuracy/evasion to the particular stat that complements whichever wep/class. That would really gimp vit builds though.

Every single caster class in the game has a continuous passive buff that amps their pdef, this cant be said of all other classes.

Umm...no? Pretty sure the only class with a passive pdef buff is barbs and it's only for tiger form. Mystics/wizzies/clerics/venos all have active pdef buffs though. However, a veno can only have it in fox form and well...they're not dealing damage in fox form usually unless they're HA build or something. Psys only get a resist phys skill and after that, they ****ed (okay, they can chain sage BoL+expel for more phys resist, but they SOL if they're demon for whatever reason).

Casters attack from a range, every single other class except archer needs to be in melee range.

And you melee classes? Have a ton of gap closers to be able to get in their face. Seriously. BMs get two sprints (one with an anti-stun), two leaps, a tele-freeze that also doubles as a good finisher apparently, and then basically a ****ing Blitzcrank pull. Barbs have tiger form. Sins have two teleports (one with a stun) and then two speed boosts (one with an anti-stun). Seekers, to my knowledge, have a tele-stun and a speed boost.

trands

@ Eoria : Those points have already been pointed out, but he probably doesn't read them anyway. Or maybe he's just smoking something I also want to try.

I'm really awaiting his explanation of how weapon procs like provoke, enlighten, athrophy, daze, fright and nimble (just to name a few) were originally designed for melees to take casters more easily and/or to make up for the different multiplier.

My guess is simply that it is nearly impossible to find a decent proc rate on attack for slow casting classes. But hey, I must be dumb in his book.

Fissile - Archosaur

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Now, you CAN argue that stuff like spark combo should be nerfed because it allows mages to hit ridiculous damage on, well, basically everyone. Even other AAs.

You realize without spark a wizard (especially sage) cant kill anyone that is r9.3 +12 full JoSD and fully buffed, because of the lack of control skills and absolutely glacial channeling. That and the entire thing can be defeated by a magic defense charm. Besides, if you have a cleric buff, you will still have 60% of your base fire defense after spark debuff.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Let me just offer you a very wise advice that I was given, back to my noobie qq aps days: suck it up and roll a new char. purify proc will be at the same level of OPnes with aps when casters make 10x $$ than an equally geared meelee. /thread

Eoria - Harshlands

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

You realize without spark a wizard (especially sage) cant kill anyone that is r9.3 +12 full JoSD and fully buffed, because of the lack of control skills and absolutely glacial channeling. That and the entire thing can be defeated by a magic defense charm. Besides, if you have a cleric buff, you will still have 60% of your base fire defense after spark debuff.

I'm not saying it should be. I just used it as an example. Probably should have been more clear on that.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

And you melee classes? Have a ton of gap closers to be able to get in their face. Seriously. BMs get two sprints (one with an anti-stun), two leaps, a tele-freeze that also doubles as a good finisher apparently, and then basically a ****ing Blitzcrank pull. Barbs have tiger form. Sins have two teleports (one with a stun) and then two speed boosts (one with an anti-stun). Seekers, to my knowledge, have a tele-stun and a speed boost.

Forgive the cut out so to speak, but it is indeed the only part of your post that I wish to comment on.

While you are right about all of those distant closers we bm's got. Casters still outnumbered us/any other melee period, and it's more 'in your face' noticeable in nw, as it is real hard not to admit that attacks from a ranged perspective is going to in all likely hood get you more points, easier and faster. (It is easier to kill at a distance, so they get more points for 'killing' than anyone would for dying.) Anyways, I digress from my original point. Unless the melee is extremely wel geared he wont be living from several g15/g16 ish casters attacking him, so where would all the 'gap closers' ever come into real use in mass pvp, especially in a place like nw. (YES, this is were adroit and others would say to get better gear, which I don't disagree with.)

R93r casters seem a lot like barbs in invoke, when faced with multiple lvl 100+ ppl attacking to try to kill them, but there are a lot of differences, the barb isnt one shotting EVERYONE that gets near them. (edit: Not to mention if they were in EQUAL gear, I am sure the barb would in theory survive more while in invoke, but still I do feel the advantages are quite in the favor of casters, and this is only naming 2 of them.) Though yes I am sure he would one shot a lot of people if all of his opponents were extremely undergeared, like all the casters are trying to make it sound we melees are we they are in the exact same situation.) I really can't see a r93r +12 barb one shotting other people in nirvy g16 thats even only just +5, (unless of course gof procs) and especially not from a far, casters in this case have a huge advantage, one that many people feel they shouldn't have, (the extreme survivablity + the ability to kill with one skill) especially when you throw in the purify proc. (not saying the purify proc has anything immediate to do with casters ability to kill, I meant that the purify proc allows casters to run away, turn around, and continue their onslaught like they were doing to you before you even reached them, granted that it isn't a guarentee proc, it can still happen with ease, especially when you add in other people hitting the caster for joke damage. NO ONE should have that ability.) As that old adage goes, if you can't beat them join them, well take a look around nw, a lot of peopel have, some of the more... noteable bms on my bm have long done so. (And do NOT tell me it's because they don't know how to play their character, they absolutely CAN, they just get too drustrated on bms in nw.)

People who are saying that things would probably balance out when everyone starts getting comparable gear is actually probably correct, ergo my suggestion a few pages back. "put everyone in equal gear/weapons, for nw ONLY"