Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

Brillance - Raging Tide

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

1.) Casters need increments of 100 magic to increase their dmg modifier. Everyone else needs 150 of their dmg increasing stat.

I can only speak for mystics - but thats clearly giving melee an advantage.

2.) Casters only need to put 1 point outside their dmg increasing stat every other level. Every other class needs at bare minimum double that amount.

1 point in Str, which does absolutely nothing but allow a Mystic to wear certain gear.
Even if we put the points in Vit, we get a 10 HP boost - woot... .-.
Dex in multiples of 20 gives a 1% crit bonus - z0mg! too OP, I know...*rolls eyes*

3.) Casters weapons all have significantly higher base damage than the other classes.

Yes we need it. Caster's fight in T-shirts for armor.

4.) Casters can attack from superior range, with archer being the exception.

Oh, you want me to run right up on you in my T-shirt. Being a Mystic, in many cases I would.

5.) All casters in the game have a passive continuous buff to amplify their physical defense, this is not true of everyone else.

Idk what your talking about. Could be a chance for you to educate here. I have manual buffs that do increase my PDef a bit. It hardly compares to the bonuses from wearing Leather or Full Metal Jackets as gear.

6.) The reason casters never had weapon procs, was because the procs were needed just so that other classes could compete with them.

I have a purify spell proc on a fast healing spell, and a plant or 2 that can debuff you - want those too??

7.) Other classes even without interval gear have always relied on APS. We have weaker attacks and need to hit more often in order to kill something. Purify proc makes it so that we must compete in DPH with classes we can not possibly match.

So, change from APS. If the shoes were on the other feet - I'm sure that's what you would tell me.

8.) The largest reason for this proc needing to be fixed, is that unless someone can compete in DPH with the caster, their addition to the battlefield helps the caster no matter what side of the fight they are on.

Its a proc - its not like its available 24/7 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year. QQ more please?

Kniraven - Lost City

you're so dumb, that I don't even want to respond b:sweat

600 magic = 400 strength/dex
Magic > Strength/dex

APS = Attacks per Second. When I spam skills with Axes, that is still using attacks per second.
APS = attack speed. Even Arcanes have an APS rate. Because we do less damage, we rely on superior APS no matter how we fight.

Your T-Shirt bullsh!t is ridiculous. Heavy Armor is more squishy to Magic attacks than Robes are to Physical Attacks.

The things I listed are math, math which is built into the game to give arcanes balancing advantages over physical classes to compensate for their slower aps and smaller hp pool.

trands

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

1.) Casters need increments of 100 magic to increase their dmg modifier. Everyone else needs 150 of their dmg increasing stat.

2.) Casters only need to put 1 point outside their dmg increasing stat every other level. Every other class needs at bare minimum double that amount.

3.) Casters weapons all have significantly higher base damage than the other classes.

4.) Casters can attack from superior range, with archer being the exception.

5.) All casters in the game have a passive continuous buff to amplify their physical defense, this is not true of everyone else.

6.) The reason casters never had weapon procs, was because the procs were needed just so that other classes could compete with them.

7.) Other classes even without interval gear have always relied on APS. We have weaker attacks and need to hit more often in order to kill something. Purify proc makes it so that we must compete in DPH with classes we can not possibly match.

8.) The largest reason for this proc needing to be fixed, is that unless someone can compete in DPH with the caster, their addition to the battlefield helps the caster no matter what side of the fight they are on.

You're just as biaised as Adroit is, but from the other side b:laugh

1) The classes with a 100 multiplier don't have any auto-attacks, the ones with a 150 multiplier do. And it makes a huge difference. While Saku's thread was a reasonable reflexion in the sense that casters DPH can be considered to big and reducing the multiplier could nerf that a bit, I find this comparaison off-topic here. I don't see how you can state it this way while also putting your point 7 in the same post.

2) Doesn't make sense, because you are going against every thread in the BM forums about stat distribution from the past 2~3 years. BM and barb can go with 1 dex every other level, your r9 weap are even axes. But as those threads mention, 200 dex is usually considered ideal because it contributes to damage in the form of accuracy and crit. Your damage is distributed over 2 stats, and you can put all your points on those. Casters have to put 0.5 point per level in a completely worthless stat, but the factor of dex for just crit isn't that interesting. Archers and sins get the jackpot by putting everything in dex, but they are forced to put 1 per level into a worthless stat.

But really, nothing is preventing you from going with 55'ish dex and rest to strenght. On a barb, that shouldn't even be such a big problem with bloodbath.

3) HA has significantly better refine then AA. HA also has better mag resistance then AA has phys defense.

4) All melee classes have sprint buffs, jump skills and such. Heck, the teleports are often longer ranged then the casters skills.

5) Seeker has defense level buff, barb has hp buff + tiger, bm has defense buff + marrows, sin has their evasion stuff hex as hell even if not continuous. Archers are the only ones who don't have a decent buff on that part.

6) That is your opinion, not a fact. If you think that, well... can't contest that isn't your opinion.

7) Lol wut ? You don't make sense. If you're speaking of "matching in DPH", that would at the best be speaking in terms of "% of hp per hit". In which case, you should take into account the above points.

8) Like pointed out several times, the stupidity of others is not a factor of OPness of purify proc. This is the same problem as soloing BH being faster then BH in a squad.

Sure, I exagerated a bit above. But this topic is going the same way as the APS issue. It's mainly BMs QQing because for the 1st time, there is something they are not specially wanted for. Just deal with it. In a month or 6 the tables will have turned again and there will be some new OP class/group for something specific and popular.

In the aps era, the reply was always "make an aps character". So now, make a caster if they are so much better.

Decus - Dreamweaver

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

That's your opinion, mister. But, I don't see where anyone died and made you judge and jury of all you see. Or fail to see, as you clearly have not read my post.

If as you say, your alleged 'facts' are undebateable, then I would think you would be quieting down, and not demanding they be debated, regardless of your opinion on them.

Thanks for probably not listening. b:thanks

As to your post that "addresses" his claims, you've not done anything except sarcastically throw generalizations around.

"I can only speak for mystics - but thats clearly giving melee an advantage." --> How? Elaborate, please? Melees do not get the huge percentile increases to their attacks like arcane classes do.

"1 point in Str, which does absolutely nothing but allow a Mystic to wear certain gear.
Even if we put the points in Vit, we get a 10 HP boost - woot... .-.
Dex in multiples of 20 gives a 1% crit bonus - z0mg! too OP, I know...*rolls eyes*" --> A meaningless use of words, as archers and assassins also stat more str than you and it also does nothing for their damage output.

"Yes we need it. Caster's fight in T-shirts for armor." --> Hardly. Ever caster class has buffs designed to ameliorate that deficiency. Casters wrecked in PvP before Purify. Or did you never kill anything?

"Oh, you want me to run right up on you in my T-shirt. Being a Mystic, in many cases I would." --> He's not saying that they shouldn't have range. He's saying that this, coupled with the proc, makes it more difficult than any other class to peg down.

"Idk what your talking about. Could be a chance for you to educate here. I have manual buffs that do increase my PDef a bit. It hardly compares to the bonuses from wearing Leather or Full Metal Jackets as gear." --> LA doesn't grant as much pdef as you think. My full r9 archer has less pdef, buffed, than most buffed arcanes in the same gear. Again, he's making the point that arcanes didn't lack survivability before.

"I have a purify spell proc on a fast healing spell, and a plant or 2 that can debuff you - want those too??" --> Another meaningless entry. See # 4

"So, change from APS. If the shoes were on the other feet - I'm sure that's what you would tell me." --> No endgame gear set prioritizes APS anymore. APS requires inferior gear. PvE has de-emphasized APS and Morai has de-emphasized it in PvP.

"Its a proc - its not like its available 24/7 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year. QQ more please?" --> Ah sorry, I missed the part where any attack can proc it. Why not make it like Blackhole, and only have it proc on autoattacks and not skills that grant debuffs. Seems good to me




I'll say it again:

Concerning NW, which is where the bulk of the complaints originated, simply disable speeds skills (and the speed from the proc) with the flag in hand. Let people use apo/genie, their innate movement speed, and nothing else. That way, anyone can do it and the proc still has a purpose, to purify.

Brillance - Raging Tide

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

you're so dumb, that I don't even want to respond b:sweat

600 magic = 400 strength/dex
Magic > Strength/dex

Ofc it is, but Im not as dumb as you yet, lol. Why would a Mystic put more points in something thats not going to do diddly for them than they have to?

APS = Attacks per Second. When I spam skills with Axes, that is still using attacks per second.
APS = attack speed. Even Arcanes have an APS rate. Because we do less damage, we rely on superior APS no matter how we fight.

I have an APS rate? Nope, I have access to a channeling bonus - doesnt help my ultra lame Physical Attack any. It increases my ability to send out an AS maybe half a second faster. Again...woot .-.

Your T-Shirt bullsh!t is ridiculous. Heavy Armor is more squishy to Magic attacks than Robes are to Physical Attacks.

You are rediculous. Where is my passive continuous PDef buff again?? *looks all over for it & wonders if she should send a ticket*

The things I listed are math, math which is built into the game to give arcanes balancing advantages over physical classes to compensate for their slower aps and smaller hp pool.

What math, lol? Your scientific formula up there seems slightly less advanced than one of my own - and I stink at Math! b:chuckle

You are only looking at things from your own perspective, which is why your hypothesis' are so fail. The point of good science is NOT to elliminate the things that work against your thesis, but use them to make a better idea. *shrugs*

Brillance - Raging Tide

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As to your post that "addresses" his claims, you've not done anything except sarcastically throw generalizations around.

"I can only speak for mystics - but thats clearly giving melee an advantage." --> How? Elaborate, please? Melees do not get the huge percentile increases to their attacks like arcane classes do.

"1 point in Str, which does absolutely nothing but allow a Mystic to wear certain gear.
Even if we put the points in Vit, we get a 10 HP boost - woot... .-.
Dex in multiples of 20 gives a 1% crit bonus - z0mg! too OP, I know...*rolls eyes*" --> A meaningless use of words, as archers and assassins also stat more str than you and it also does nothing for their damage output.

"Yes we need it. Caster's fight in T-shirts for armor." --> Hardly. Ever caster class has buffs designed to ameliorate that deficiency. Casters wrecked in PvP before Purify. Or did you never kill anything?

"Oh, you want me to run right up on you in my T-shirt. Being a Mystic, in many cases I would." --> He's not saying that they shouldn't have range. He's saying that this, coupled with the proc, makes it more difficult than any other class to peg down.

"Idk what your talking about. Could be a chance for you to educate here. I have manual buffs that do increase my PDef a bit. It hardly compares to the bonuses from wearing Leather or Full Metal Jackets as gear." --> LA doesn't grant as much pdef as you think. My full r9 archer has less pdef, buffed, than most buffed arcanes in the same gear. Again, he's making the point that arcanes didn't lack survivability before.

"I have a purify spell proc on a fast healing spell, and a plant or 2 that can debuff you - want those too??" --> Another meaningless entry. See # 4

"So, change from APS. If the shoes were on the other feet - I'm sure that's what you would tell me." --> No endgame gear set prioritizes APS anymore. APS requires inferior gear. PvE has de-emphasized APS and Morai has de-emphasized it in PvP.

"Its a proc - its not like its available 24/7 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year. QQ more please?" --> Ah sorry, I missed the part where any attack can proc it. Why not make it like Blackhole, and only have it proc on autoattacks and not skills that grant debuffs. Seems good to me


I'll say it again:

Concerning NW, which is where the bulk of the complaints originated, simply disable speeds skills (and the speed from the proc) with the flag in hand. Let people use apo/genie, their innate movement speed, and nothing else. That way, anyone can do it and the proc still has a purpose, to purify.

Any attack procing it does not guarantee a proc. Its just more QQing over nothing, lol. Make it a guaranteed proc and I would mayyyyyyyybe conceed.

Let people use Apo? Let advanced players have a clear advantage providing monetary gain from other players more than they already do?? For shame! b:angry

Decus - Dreamweaver

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Any attack procing it does not guarantee a proc. Its just more QQing over nothing, lol. Make it a guaranteed proc and I would mayyyyyyyybe conceed.

Let people use Apo? Let advanced players have a clear advantage providing monetary gain from other players more than they already do?? For shame! b:angry

Do you just write nonsense and pretend that it's meaningful? Even though you only focused on one thing I said, I'll clarify anyway. I never said it guaranteed a proc. I proposed a balance. A few pages back we had this same discussion. As to your second point, I don't really see the validity given that you can already use apo and I don't see any QQ about it.

Brillance - Raging Tide

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Do you just write nonsense and pretend that it's meaningful?

Isn't that your job? I dont see it as gainful employment, but I'd hardly want to remove your fun for you.

Even though you only focused on one thing I said, I'll clarify anyway. I never said it guaranteed a proc. I proposed a balance. A few pages back we had this same discussion. As to your second point, I don't really see the validity given that you can already use apo and I don't see any QQ about it.

You propose an imbalance, and you also use boosting Apo sales to try to make a **** point affecting another class.

I think the Devs do a very good job with balancing chars. People are basicly whining that caster's MAY be a tad harder to kill, and for some selfless reason you want to agree.

It's your right to voice such a lame opinion - but its not your right to judge the posts of anyone elses opinion.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

trands wrote: »

You're just as biaised as Adroit is, but from the other side b:laugh

1) The classes with a 100 multiplier don't have any auto-attacks, the ones with a 150 multiplier do. And it makes a huge difference. While Saku's thread was a reasonable reflexion in the sense that casters DPH can be considered to big and reducing the multiplier could nerf that a bit, I find this comparaison off-topic here. I don't see how you can state it this way while also putting your point 7 in the same post.

2) Doesn't make sense, because you are going against every thread in the BM forums about stat distribution from the past 2~3 years. BM and barb can go with 1 dex every other level, your r9 weap are even axes. But as those threads mention, 200 dex is usually considered ideal because it contributes to damage in the form of accuracy and crit. Your damage is distributed over 2 stats, and you can put all your points on those. Casters have to put 0.5 point per level in a completely worthless stat, but the factor of dex for just crit isn't that interesting. Archers and sins get the jackpot by putting everything in dex, but they are forced to put 1 per level into a worthless stat.

But really, nothing is preventing you from going with 55'ish dex and rest to strenght. On a barb, that shouldn't even be such a big problem with bloodbath.

3) HA has significantly better refine then AA. HA also has better mag resistance then AA has phys defense.

4) All melee classes have sprint buffs, jump skills and such. Heck, the teleports are often longer ranged then the casters skills.

5) Seeker has defense level buff, barb has hp buff + tiger, bm has defense buff + marrows, sin has their evasion stuff hex as hell even if not continuous. Archers are the only ones who don't have a decent buff on that part.

6) That is your opinion, not a fact. If you think that, well... can't contest that isn't your opinion.

7) Lol wut ? You don't make sense. If you're speaking of "matching in DPH", that would at the best be speaking in terms of "% of hp per hit". In which case, you should take into account the above points.

8) Like pointed out several times, the stupidity of others is not a factor of OPness of purify proc. This is the same problem as soloing BH being faster then BH in a squad.

Sure, I exagerated a bit above. But this topic is going the same way as the APS issue. It's mainly BMs QQing because for the 1st time, there is something they are not specially wanted for. Just deal with it. In a month or 6 the tables will have turned again and there will be some new OP class/group for something specific and popular.

In the aps era, the reply was always "make an aps character". So now, make a caster if they are so much better.

i agree with this

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

If they changed the mechanic of the flag from "reduce movement speed" to "reduce maximum movement speed" all the problems would be solved.

The only reason for purify qq is for flag carriers. And nw maps will be updated so purify is somewhat irrelevant.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

trands wrote: »

You're just as biaised as Adroit is, but from the other side b:laugh

1) The classes with a 100 multiplier don't have any auto-attacks, the ones with a 150 multiplier do. And it makes a huge difference. While Saku's thread was a reasonable reflexion in the sense that casters DPH can be considered to big and reducing the multiplier could nerf that a bit, I find this comparaison off-topic here. I don't see how you can state it this way while also putting your point 7 in the same post.

Every class has auto attacks, and casters would be around the same unsparked efficiency as any other. They don't invest points to be able to take advantage of fists/claws or other melee weapons because it would gimp their main weapons.

2) Doesn't make sense, because you are going against every thread in the BM forums about stat distribution from the past 2~3 years. BM and barb can go with 1 dex every other level, your r9 weap are even axes. But as those threads mention, 200 dex is usually considered ideal because it contributes to damage in the form of accuracy and crit. Your damage is distributed over 2 stats, and you can put all your points on those. Casters have to put 0.5 point per level in a completely worthless stat, but the factor of dex for just crit isn't that interesting. Archers and sins get the jackpot by putting everything in dex, but they are forced to put 1 per level into a worthless stat.

But really, nothing is preventing you from going with 55'ish dex and rest to strenght. On a barb, that shouldn't even be such a big problem with bloodbath.

BMs are forced to invest nearly half their total points into Dex in order to be able to hit anything aside from Arcanes, otherwise the accuracy is just far too low to be a real threat to anything in LA, and missing important hits on HA isn't a tempting prospect. 55 Dex on any HA class is hardly ideal, even on a Barb.

3) HA has significantly better refine then AA. HA also has better mag resistance then AA has phys defense.

AA has significantly higher damage output with skills than HA or LA, and the difference in their defenses at end game are near inconsequential. It's mainly a tradeoff of less HP for more damage or more HP for less damage at that point, if weapon procs aren't involved.

4) All melee classes have sprint buffs, jump skills and such. Heck, the teleports are often longer ranged then the casters skills.

BMs have leaps and Reckless, all of which are roughly half the range of a Caster's skills. Seekers get Transposition (which doesn't effectively close or lengthen gaps) and Void Step, which has a long cooldown and takes a spark. The only Melee class that has a teleport that can reach a mage from casting distance is the Assassin, and let's not forget that Wizards actually have a leap that's longer distance than all but a Demon Assasin's teleport. Granted, melee has speed, but most casters have skills that reduce speed severely. 80% speed reduction, or even 40% speed reduction, renders the 90%/100% speed buffs rather ineffective. Oh, and guess what, they're spammable and can be used after the sprints in question are in cooldown. This isnt' even taking into account stuns, sleep, and freezes.

5) Seeker has defense level buff, barb has hp buff + tiger, bm has defense buff + marrows, sin has their evasion stuff hex as hell even if not continuous. Archers are the only ones who don't have a decent buff on that part.

6) That is your opinion, not a fact. If you think that, well... can't contest that isn't your opinion.

So you deny that casters have higher skill damage than Melee? It takes a zerk crit to equal a caster's crit, that right there means there's a difference in power.

7) Lol wut ? You don't make sense. If you're speaking of "matching in DPH", that would at the best be speaking in terms of "% of hp per hit". In which case, you should take into account the above points.

In terms of % HP per hit, casters have the advantage unless a chain of zerk crits are landed. Melee relied on quick hits for fast DPS, whereas casters relied on high DPH. Now it's become a DPH competition when fighting an Arcane, and the Arcane has the range and damage advantage. A melee user's most effective damage setup has been rendered useless against targets wielding Purify Spell, and while I know Arcanes will be eager to say it's just hurr durr aps, it took skill to work a stunlock while apsing a target down.

8) Like pointed out several times, the stupidity of others is not a factor of OPness of purify proc. This is the same problem as soloing BH being faster then BH in a squad.

Sure, I exagerated a bit above. But this topic is going the same way as the APS issue. It's mainly BMs QQing because for the 1st time, there is something they are not specially wanted for. Just deal with it. In a month or 6 the tables will have turned again and there will be some new OP class/group for something specific and popular.

In the aps era, the reply was always "make an aps character". So now, make a caster if they are so much better.

Except that it IS a factor, because this is an MMORPG. It's not single player, there are other people, and as long as they're unable to contribute a reasonable amount of damage all they do is help the opposing side. As of this moment, this is the only game I've ever seen where someone trying to help you, under any circumstance, is more hurt than help. Any other game, or any other situation the more people there are the better, regardless of their gear level. Here? Nope.

You're pretty silly using BMs as an example, our class has been one of the most gimped, if not the most gimped class in the game since the TB expansion. At least when it comes to PvP. Sins took the DPS spotlight, then Seekers came along and took the AoE spotlight, coupled with the updates that happened overtime Blademasters have become somewhat of a joke compared to other classes. Yes, they're great when played correctly and with the addition of Morai skills things have gotten better, but we're still pretty far down there in terms of damage output and tankability compared to another comparably geared HA. BMs are a poor example to use.

Dem replies in dat red. Off to watch two hours of Code Geass in NW

Brillance - Raging Tide

In the aps era, the reply was always "make an aps character". So now, make a caster if they are so much better.


That's right! Everyone needs to do their part to help support the game! Make a caster and roll and reroll till you get a silly purify proc, and you can claim you are OP, and no one can doubt you!

I remember that and I that. It's an awesome idea. And, isn't it amazing it originated with a melee class? Seriously! Like reinvesting your coin where your mouth was. b:dirty b:victory

Azura - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Every class has auto attacks, and casters would be around the same unsparked efficiency as any other. They don't invest points to be able to take advantage of fists/claws or other melee weapons because it would gimp their main weapons.

Are you serious? which one is the caster's auto attack?! Smacking with our magic weapon?! You are a moron for considering that an auto attack. It doesn't even come close to anything a sin, archer, bm, barb, or seeker has.

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

^ This, he's well known over here on Dreamweaver.

He's just as squishy as us 'true' ha users. (to magic attacks)

As for the purify proc, I don't know how it affects him in nw, and he can indeed tank quite a few things that many people on our server struggle to tank. (pve wise of course, not sure about mass pvp places)

It is all very relative to who you are fighting at the time. As a HA user with the purify proc I can go into a battle and kite/kill plenty in a 20v1 that consists of mainly sins/bms/barbs. However when a decent geared caster comes it is often game over for me. I am far from end game compared to many of the r9rr people and I am sure if I was full +12 with jades I would survive more caster ganks but as it is a well timed HF followed by a couple of casters hitting me usually means death regardless of the purify proc on my weapon.

Yes I do believe the proc is overpowered and have first hand experience of winning battles were I should never had. Low levels/geared toons do contribute to higher survivability and in my opinion it is the speed boost that is the problem allowing such a huge distance from any attackers once proc'ed.

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver

It is important to point out that while casters may hit harder, they hit several times slower.

Almost every strong magic attack for a wizard seems like it takes forever and a day to cast.

Chuck_smith - Sanctuary

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Are you serious? which one is the caster's auto attack?! Smacking with our magic weapon?! You are a moron for considering that an auto attack. It doesn't even come close to anything a sin, archer, bm, barb, or seeker has.

No he isn't and you forgot to add venomancer. It is much easier to auto hit with veno more than other classes even before level 50 even easier as 79+. So 100 would be a breeze to.

Also LOL @ him saying BMs having trouble hitting sins and archers... Min the STR and everything else in the DEX and use sky cover? Zanryu it is not even hard to hit LA classes. Damage isn't everything, learn how to manage your build / stats. Sins and archers are the easiest classes for BM.

http://pwcalc.com/c80a9beead9d2b67
http://pwcalc.com/476ee65741a6d792

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Chuck_smith - Sanctuary wrote: »

No he isn't and you forgot to add venomancer. It is much easier to auto hit with veno more than other classes even before level 50 even easier as 79+. So 100 would be a breeze to.

Also LOL @ him saying BMs having trouble hitting sins and archers... Min the STR and everything else in the DEX and use sky cover? QQ moar Zanryu it is not even hard to hit LA classes. Damage isn't everything, learn how to manage your stats.

http://pwcalc.com/c80a9beead9d2b67
http://pwcalc.com/476ee65741a6d792

... this is a joke. This guy is a troll. Right?


Please, someone tell me this guy is a troll.

Chuck_smith - Sanctuary

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

... this is a joke. This guy is a troll. Right?


Please, someone tell me this guy is a troll.

Coming from someone who easily kills LA users with HA users? I think I may be trolling then. b:shutup

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Chuck_smith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Coming from someone who easily kills LA users with HA users? I think I may be trolling then. b:shutup

Then you can start by posting builds that actually exist on PWI b:chuckle

I won't even bother with the obliteration of your actual argument, or what exists of one. I leave that to those with more patience.

Chuck_smith - Sanctuary

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Then you can start by posting builds that actually exist on PWI b:chuckle

I won't even bother with the obliteration of your actual argument, or what exists of one. I leave that to those with more patience.

Well how should I know that some of the ornaments exist? I could have sworn there were R9 recast no? I never know if there were rings personally but that does not mean that what Zanryu said was relevant. BMs (and seekers) gains the most accuracy points per DEX and sky covers / R9 rings gives extra accuracy. I still remember BMs having NO trouble with hitting archers and sins with minimum DEX (by fists, let alone min DEX enough for spears back in the day) because they gain around twice as much accuracy than archer's and sin's DEX.

Common sense don't exist in this community or what?

KingCrash - Dreamweaver

Concerning Nation War, I think it would be nice to see all weapon procs on all weapons disable themselves when they pick up the flag. The penalty for getting a flag is a massive speed debuff. Purify eliminates that debuff. If the flag disables weapon procs, then you don't have to worry about it during Nation War anymore.

MasterPerian - Lost City

KingCrash - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Concerning Nation War, I think it would be nice to see all weapon procs on all weapons disable themselves when they pick up the flag. The penalty for getting a flag is a massive speed debuff. Purify eliminates that debuff. If the flag disables weapon procs, then you don't have to worry about it during Nation War anymore.

and let heavy classes book it straight to the goal with their immunity run skills. Nice try b:bye

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

MasterPerian - Lost City wrote: »

and let heavy classes book it straight to the goal with their immunity run skills. Nice try b:bye

Reroll if you haven't figured out how to use skills to control an HA while anti-stunned. You also have a 30m range that can be stretched to 40m while most of them have only a single 8 second or 15 second anti-stun and have to make the choice between speed or more anti-stun.

I think King had a good idea. You should hear the wizards in my squad going "Hit me. Hit me someone! I'm waiting for my weapon to proc and not enough people are attacking me" because they go into a god mode with it active and they have higher pdef then most HAs.

KingCrash - Dreamweaver

MasterPerian - Lost City wrote: »

and let heavy classes book it straight to the goal with their immunity run skills. Nice try b:bye

You mean the one I have that gives me 4 secs of movement immunity and has a 60 sec cooldown?

MasterPerian - Lost City

KingCrash - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You mean the one I have that gives me 4 secs of movement immunity and has a 60 sec cooldown?

You have no idea how fast sins dart for the goal with their run skills only takes like 8-10 seconds.

Not everyones Adroit and to be fair you want to know what happens when someone fast and tanky takes the flag from your average +10 r9 3rd cast wiz perspective. We can't even catch up or keep them in place long enough we dont have the stun skills Pit fall, Hail Storm, random activations it isn't reliable enough to keep up with 40k HP barbs running around with auto pot and everything else thats fancy.

MasterPerian - Lost City

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Reroll if you haven't figured out how to use skills to control an HA while anti-stunned. You also have a 30m range that can be stretched to 40m while most of them have only a single 8 second or 15 second anti-stun and have to make the choice between speed or more anti-stun.

I think King had a good idea. You should hear the wizards in my squad going "Hit me. Hit me someone! I'm waiting for my weapon to proc and not enough people are attacking me" because they go into a god mode with it active and they have higher pdef then most HAs.

I love this QQ thread
you all cry so much stop crying and suck it up. I still think HA's kick people in the face hard. U just gotta be +10 -- +12.

trands

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Are you serious? which one is the caster's auto attack?! Smacking with our magic weapon?! You are a moron for considering that an auto attack. It doesn't even come close to anything a sin, archer, bm, barb, or seeker has.

He mainly forgets that those auto attacks a caster could do, are also based on 150 multiplier b:laugh

I find it hard to still take this thread serious. It feels like the same ppl that tried to convince the casters they should be happy with aps DD soloing instances to sell the mats are now mad because the casters got a few more goodies then them the last few updats. Everything is based on a few rather idiotic assumptions :

- 20 ppl in NW facing 1 caster and are to damn stupid to cover the 3 flag spawns and sleeping said caster.
- In a multiple undergeared vs 1 r999, the multiple undergeared are TT60s triggering the purify proc while they are g16s when facing a r999 melee and actually become capable of killing him.
- All is centered around wiz vs bm. Just look at the amount off "casters have more phys def then HA" there is in this thread.
- Casters are fast when they are hit on while running with the flag QQ. Meanwhile, only seekers and idiots are slow enough to not cover 95%+ of the traject at more then 10m/s while being immune to movement debuffs.
- Even without the purify proc casters are more tanky then any HA class.

On top of that, most casters are more then willing to accept some kind of nerf like a cd. Still, they keep bashing on and on and on b:laugh Karma biting the aps idiots in the behind, and they can't accept it.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Are you serious? which one is the caster's auto attack?! Smacking with our magic weapon?! You are a moron for considering that an auto attack. It doesn't even come close to anything a sin, archer, bm, barb, or seeker has.

It's amusing to see you insinuate that I'm a moron when you're so obviously incapable of comprehending what you read. Let me refresh your memory as to what I said, I stated that arcane classes do in fact have access to an auto attack, and while they would be fully capable of using it to have roughly the same unsparked damage as a melee class (excluding Assassins) they don't because it would render their main weapons useless or weaker than they should be, and because they do not gain the same benefit from triple sparking as proper melee classes. That being said, they DO have access to it and can indeed use it with similar results unsparked.

Here are different builds for reference:

Blademaster
Barbarian
Wizard
Cleric

I'm sure you get the point by now. The arcane classes have a mere ~300 physical attack less than the melee class without mastery. Blademasters have a significant lead, however my point stands that unsparked the dps would be similar on auto-attack. The only issue with it is that were Arcanes to invest in it they would lose out on the spark attack speed and physical attack increase from triple sparks, and even if they were to use a hybrid build to wear arcane gear as well they'd suffer from reduced damage on both ends of the spectrum. Arcanes do have access to auto attacking, however it's simply less effective overall whereas for melee it gives a reliable source of damage while allowing them to still use their main weapons for DPH. Of course, mages have a massive advantage on that front, given the higher damage from their skills and long range capabilities.

Chuck_smith - Sanctuary wrote: »

No he isn't and you forgot to add venomancer. It is much easier to auto hit with veno more than other classes even before level 50 even easier as 79+. So 100 would be a breeze to.

Also LOL @ him saying BMs having trouble hitting sins and archers... Min the STR and everything else in the DEX and use sky cover? Zanryu it is not even hard to hit LA classes. Damage isn't everything, learn how to manage your build / stats. Sins and archers are the easiest classes for BM.

http://pwcalc.com/c80a9beead9d2b67
http://pwcalc.com/476ee65741a6d792

If you truly think a BM will have issue with hitting an LA class then you must not be playing PWI. Evasion has always been an issue for us, not the most pressing one, but an issue nontheless seeing as it's able to prevent stunlock loops or even a stun in the first place, or even that one vital hit that could decide a fight. Our lack of accuracy is an issue, which is why we're almost forced to pump so much dex even without utilizing an aps build, otherwise our miss rate would be far too high to justify doing so.

For comparison, my current build with

200 Dexterity
55 Dexterity

While there's a large jump in physical attack, that build will be much less efficient at hitting targets rendering that jump in power almost worthless. Power without accuracy is a useless tool. This is why Arcanes maintain such an advantage when it comes to DPH, accuracy isn't a factor for them while it is for Blademasters and every other class.

Hannsel - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It's amusing to see you insinuate that I'm a moron when you're so obviously incapable of comprehending what you read. Let me refresh your memory as to what I said, I stated that arcane classes do in fact have access to an auto attack, and while they would be fully capable of using it to have roughly the same unsparked damage as a melee class (excluding Assassins) they don't because it would render their main weapons useless or weaker than they should be, and because they do not gain the same benefit from triple sparking as proper melee classes. That being said, they DO have access to it and can indeed use it with similar results unsparked.

Here are different builds for reference:

Blademaster
Barbarian
Wizard
Cleric

I'm sure you get the point by now. The arcane classes have a mere ~300 physical attack less than the melee class without mastery. Blademasters have a significant lead, however my point stands that unsparked the dps would be similar on auto-attack. The only issue with it is that were Arcanes to invest in it they would lose out on the spark attack speed and physical attack increase from triple sparks, and even if they were to use a hybrid build to wear arcane gear as well they'd suffer from reduced damage on both ends of the spectrum. Arcanes do have access to auto attacking, however it's simply less effective overall whereas for melee it gives a reliable source of damage while allowing them to still use their main weapons for DPH.

so basically arcanes have to give up being arcanes to use auto attack.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Hannsel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

so basically arcanes have to give up being arcanes to use auto attack.

Me thinks you be missing the point.

Let me try to explain this another way.

Arcanes opt for DPH rather than DPS, as has always been the case. They have the best DPH in the game. While APS would be an option for them, they don't because of the lack of spark benefit, otherwise they'd be able to use the same gear setups as HA's that use -int gear and get about the same effectiveness out of it. However, this is not the case, so instead of using gear that would give them the same unsparked effectiveness they use proper gear for their class in order to get the best bang for their buck.

Melees give up nothing to use -int, however the sacrifice would be worth it for casters if they gained an aps and physical attack boost from Demon Spark, or even just a physical attack boost from Sage spark. At least potentially. However this is not the case, rendering an APS setup less efficient for solo play.

The point remains that Arcanes have access to high dps setups, however they are simply less efficient in scenarios where perma sparking is an option such as PvE. PvP, on the other hand, they could get by with it so long as they can keep the target in place via genie or class skills. Oh wait, no they can't, because of Purify Spell weapons all over the place.