Archer Skill Changes in "Dynasty" Expansion

Burnout - Harshlands

Iyania - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I miss the days when the math and numbers on this forum were thought out and researched.

If you proc demon QS you have a better chance to fit an extra hit in than sage, which is in itself another chance to crit. You have no idea how much it annoyed me when I was playing on a certain person's sage archer that I could only hit people 2 times before they run when my demon archer could hit them 3 times easily.

I miss the days when people read posts before replying.

I said that because of QS's crit proc sages have a decent potential to burst like demon's QS proc, just in a different way. Demons are gonna do more damage still regardless.

Also, you should factor in sage's higher weapon attack damage, as well as their higher chi gain rate which allows more aim lows for roots which allows more uninterrupted dps, as well as the fact that sages are richer and thus usually have better gear, as well as their longer stun, as well as.... *sarcasm*.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Iyania - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I miss the days when the math and numbers on this forum were thought out and researched.

If you proc demon QS you have a better chance to fit an extra hit in than sage, which is in itself another chance to crit. You have no idea how much it annoyed me when I was playing on a certain person's sage archer that I could only hit people 2 times before they run when my demon archer could hit them 3 times easily.

Yes, but back in those days that said person's sage archer would have already made the kill with 2 shots. No need to waste extra arrows... you have any idea how many chinese babies are locked in a room sharping sticks for arrows.

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

edit: I mean more frequent crit spikes, not larger >.>

Wrong... if you are counting the new sage quickshot (which it seems like you are), sage will have more frequent crits... and also LARGER crits. Simply because of sage mastery.

In small fights... quickshots (both cult) has lost much its luster due to leaps. During the last nation war, I was able to leap away from a sage spark and demon qs proc when I saw the icon. Too bad the idiotic sage didn't leap away when my qs proc. In a brainless comparsion... I would certainly agree that sage has somewhat close the imaginary gap with demons. But lets face it... even before the update, no one (not even top demons) would take a top sage lightly.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Wrong... if you are counting the new sage quickshot (which it seems like you are), sage will have more frequent crits... and also LARGER crits. Simply because of sage mastery.

He was talking about the number of crits per second as opposed to the crits per arrow. Demon QS proc takes me from .87 to 1.25 and demon Stun arrow takes me from 40% crit to 50%.

NO QS 0.4*0.87 = 0.348 crit/s
STUN+NO QS 0.5*0.87 = 0.435 crit/s
QS+NO STUN 0.4*1.25 = 0.5 crit /s
QS+STUN 0.5*1.25 = .625 crits / s
Average QS + no stun (0.4+(1.25+.87)/2) = 0.424 crits / s
Average QS + stun (0.5+(1.25+.87)/2) = 0.53 crits / s

Sage QS would take my crit from 36% to 56%.
BASE = 0.36*.87 = 0.31 crit/s
0.56*.87 = 0.4872 crit/s

You can see that demon can do more crits per second than sage in all cases when QS procs and in the average result of a stun arrow + QS.

deadwieght

i dont wanna spell out the math but wouldnt a sage archer do more crit per attack using galvantic, sage quickshot? with an average 40% base crit rate that brings the crit rate up to 85% for sage. galavantic and crit rate buff are different icons meaning they stack i assume?

yes its a chance proc on galavantic depending on soulforce but so is demon QS isnt it?

Astraelys - Raging Tide

deadwieght wrote: »

i dont wanna spell out the math but wouldnt a sage archer do more crit per attack using galvantic, sage quickshot? with an average 40% base crit rate that brings the crit rate up to 85% for sage. galavantic and crit rate buff are different icons meaning they stack i assume?

yes its a chance proc on galavantic depending on soulforce but so is demon QS isnt it?

Galvanic isn't stackeable, sage QS or any crit buff can overwrite it. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Astraelys - Raging Tide wrote: »

Galvanic isn't stackeable, sage QS or any crit buff can overwrite it. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Ya you're wrong but the more crit that's available the less important that 20% crit from sage quickshot becomes relative to APS. Unlike -interval crit has diminishing returns so sage falls farther behind.

Basically adding extra crit is most effective when you have low crit, not when you have high.

Iyania - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes, but back in those days that said person's sage archer would have already made the kill with 2 shots. No need to waste extra arrows... you have any idea how many chinese babies are locked in a room sharping sticks for arrows.

Sigh, I'd give you arrows if they weren't bound.

Don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun on that archer too, what with the leaps and all since I was too lazy to get mine. Until I ran out of mana pots.

SnipersShot - Heavens Tear

b:dirty Ponies will take over the world

deadwieght

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ya you're wrong but the more crit that's available the less important that 20% crit from sage quickshot becomes relative to APS. Unlike -interval crit has diminishing returns so sage falls farther behind.

Basically adding extra crit is most effective when you have low crit, not when you have high.

im pretty sure that in my tests of crit rate is not a diminishing return, its a % based attribute. im not sure what you mean by relative to APS but my thoughts were that a Sage BoA with 85%+ crit rate might be better than demon BoA even with the faster attack speed. now with advent of 800-900 dex archers it really doesnt matter because we're all going to one shot everyone anyway.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

deadwieght wrote: »

im pretty sure that in my tests of crit rate is not a diminishing return, its a % based attribute. im not sure what you mean by relative to APS but my thoughts were that a Sage BoA with 85%+ crit rate might be better than demon BoA even with the faster attack speed. now with advent of 800-900 dex archers it really doesnt matter because we're all going to one shot everyone anyway.

If you're at 50% crit rate and gain 5% more crit rate your overall dps increases by 3.3%.
If you're at 85% crit rate and gain 5% more crit rate your overall dps increases by 2.7%.

That's a diminishing return, but to be specific though it's diminishing as a % relative to your base damage but it's linear with respect to absolute damage.

-interval doesn't have this issue. Going one step up from 3.33 to 4.00 increases your overall damage by 20% while going another step up from 4.00 to 5.00 increases your overall damage again by 25%.

This is why you get a lot more oomph out of stacking APS and attack speed buffs than by stacking crit buffs.

You bring up a good case of combining sage quickshot with sage BoA. I'll leave it as an exercise to the next person to see if that combination is more effective than the faster demon BoA.

Sint - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

You bring up a good case of combining sage quickshot with sage BoA. I'll leave it as an exercise to the next person to see if that combination is more effective than the faster demon BoA.

Demon would start out with his crit buffs and, likely, STA into the crowd before starting zhen.

The question would then be, when does 20% added dmg from using demon BoA start making it better than sage BoA's 8% (6% with starter wings) higher crit. I think the answer is quite obvious.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Iyania - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sigh, I'd give you arrows if they weren't bound.

Don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun on that archer too, what with the leaps and all since I was too lazy to get mine. Until I ran out of mana pots.

Yea... mp pots sucks. Ever since nation wars came out... I am now duo charmed. Can't be bothered with pots when there is 10 people chasing my *** while my entire squad is following some barb. Someone really has to hold them back.

Iyania - Heavens Tear

I wasn't chasing a barb, I was spawn killing U_U

deadwieght

i did some figuring and demon BoA is still the more powerful skill. demon BoA is about 12% stronger in terms of damage per second when both classes use there best combo excluding genies.

Best combo = Demon would be galavantic and BoA with QS proc'ed
Sage would be galavantic, BoA with QS proc'ed

still it brings the % difference down from the former 22% difference between the two.

Demon is still the better PvP build and Sage is better for PvE just now the gap has closed slightly.

and ty Asterelle, i was thinking in linear terms, thats why i didnt see the diminishing return.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

deadwieght wrote: »

i did some figuring and demon BoA is still the more powerful skill. demon BoA is about 12% stronger in terms of damage per second when both classes use there best combo excluding genies.

Best combo = Demon would be galavantic and BoA with QS proc'ed
Sage would be galavantic, BoA with QS proc'ed

still it brings the % difference down from the former 22% difference between the two.

Demon is still the better PvP build and Sage is better for PvE just now the gap has closed slightly.

and ty Asterelle, i was thinking in linear terms, thats why i didnt see the diminishing return.

I'm not sure why I never realized Galvanic had a different crit buff, probably because I did not have my own crit buff (aside from base one) and rarely used Galvanic if at all in TW (and if I did it was for range).

Correct me if I am wrong but Demon QS has no effect on BoA's static interval?

I can see 3 different paths for those skill combos, 1 for sage and 2 for demon:

Sage would be Galvanic + QS + BoA as you said.
Demon would have its optimal path of Galvanic + STA/Stun proc + BoA.
And a nonproc'd Stun/STA in the same scenario.

Some variables to account for would be Sage's DPH bonus from mastery, Demon BoA's minus interval bonus and different crit rates on differing scenarios. I haven't even gone into the math at all, but logic would dictate that Demon's increased interval would pass Sage's dph/crit bonus over time. How much time is a good question, one that maybe Decus wants to answer for me? (Since he is good at math and I am not)

Decus - Dreamweaver

deadwieght wrote: »

i did some figuring and demon BoA is still the more powerful skill. demon BoA is about 12% stronger in terms of damage per second when both classes use there best combo excluding genies.

Best combo = Demon would be galavantic and BoA with QS proc'ed
Sage would be galavantic, BoA with QS proc'ed

still it brings the % difference down from the former 22% difference between the two.

Demon is still the better PvP build and Sage is better for PvE just now the gap has closed slightly.

and ty Asterelle, i was thinking in linear terms, thats why i didnt see the diminishing return.

...Huh?

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How much time is a good question, one that maybe Decus wants to answer for me? (Since he is good at math and I am not)

I could, as can anyone else, really. It's simple but tedious and I have zero interest in doing damage calculations on my holiday >:o

Also, I am not good at math. I just enjoy being an amateur math nerd.

deadwieght

huh?


doesnt demon QS have a different icon that demon BoA? that means it would stack if it does. im sage so i dont really know for sure but i think it does since the BoA proc is 'inside' the BoA. all these pro archers someone should know

Decus - Dreamweaver

Demon Barrage has no 'buff' icon.

Valirah - Sanctuary

Probably meant STA not QS, for the temp crit buff.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

I just bought a Sage Quickshot for 500k, which I'm pretty sure is close to a steal. Would the Sage archers who frequent here give me a price check on the skill book?

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I just bought a Sage Quickshot for 500k, which I'm pretty sure is close to a steal. Would the Sage archers who frequent here give me a price check on the skill book?

I paid 2 mil for the first ever sage quickshot drop on server back in the days. factor in inflation... thats prob a good 30-40 mil in today's coins.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I just bought a Sage Quickshot for 500k, which I'm pretty sure is close to a steal. Would the Sage archers who frequent here give me a price check on the skill book?

With the change in the skill I have seen it go for a maximum of 35mil. I would estimate its value as similar to that of BoA (22~30mil on my server), or to compare to another class, at least Revive (which goes for 18-22mil on my server)

Basically you made bank. Grats.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

If only I could get Demon Barrage for that low...

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If only I could get Demon Barrage for that low...

I think the most I ever paid for any book was 13 mil for sage Winged Blessing (when it was rare). Mastery is like 5~8mil now. Skills like Winged Shell, TB and Wingspan are 3~4.5mil. BoA I got lucky and made first try. Stormrage was like 6~8mil, but you can probably sell sage for a high amount now (at least 14 I would imagine). Demon QS used to be like 18~22mil and BoA was always around 25~30, Demon BoA sometimes would be closer to 40mil. BH 89 books go for like 50~200k. Skills like LS, Vicious and Serrated have always sold around 1~2 mil.

I never thought much into the different book markets per server. I used to monopolize it in the first years of my server finding them cheap and reselling all the nice books (Stone Barrier, Revive, Wiz Ultis, BKI, etc)