Archer Skill Changes in "Dynasty" Expansion

witniss

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

As if our resident full R9 3rd cast +12 sage archer on Harshlands really needed to get any more overpowered than she already is...

After the skill changes and crit bonuses R9 s3 gives I might as well just assume every single one of her autos will be crits.

Wytche is 3rd cast?

Burnout - Harshlands

witniss wrote: »

Wytche is 3rd cast?

Full 3rd cast armor, all JOSD +12. It's a +100 dex bonus, which is just killer.

I cast a crit blade tempest on her w/ my wiz +1 R8 and she lost ~1% of her health.

Eoria - Harshlands

It's the +100 stat points that really just make r9 3rd cast way too OP...which might be okay if the r9 3rd cast also increased defenses a lot as well, but there's not nearly as big of a difference between r9 2nd cast defenses and r9 3rd cast defenses as there is between the offensive power of the two.


Lets also not get into how the majority of the PWI population will never reach this level of OP gear.

Burnout - Harshlands

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

It's the +100 stat points that really just make r9 3rd cast way too OP...which might be okay if the r9 3rd cast also increased defenses a lot as well, but there's not nearly as big of a difference between r9 2nd cast defenses and r9 3rd cast defenses as there is between the offensive power of the two.


Lets also not get into how the majority of the PWI population will never reach this level of OP gear.

Actually, this was one of the first things I went in and thought about when I found out 3rd cast existed. Assuming 2 opponents each went from full +12 R9 to full +12 R9 3rd cast weapon/armor, the attack/defense isn't as bad as it seems, though this depends on sharding.

Keep in mind full R9 arcane s3 armors from S1 gives an extra 1600 hp alone just from armor add-ons + refines, in addition to an extra 5% hp boost (10% total). The belt itself also gives an extra 400 physical defense and 3 defense levels. S3 Nirvana cape + helm also gives an additional 500 hp.

All of that increases total survival by quite a bit. I didn't actually do any major number crunching, but I'd estimate at least ~30%, if not more. Since this is the archer forums maybe someone will actually do the exact numbers :O.

witniss

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Full 3rd cast armor, all JOSD +12. It's a +100 dex bonus, which is just killer.

I cast a crit blade tempest on her w/ my wiz +1 R8 and she lost ~1% of her health.

When did he get it

Burnout - Harshlands

witniss wrote: »

When did he get it

IDK. She had it when I came back to the game.

What sucks is, she hangs out at west like, allll day, and to add to that she's even pretty decent at playing the archer, and can't be ignored in pvp, unlike a certain other R9 3rd cast who likes to razor feathers me for 2k damage.

AshenSkies - Heavens Tear

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I left Liberate. Going to find a new home...

Find one that TWs against RoC!b:chuckle

G_tar_God - Dreamweaver

DarkMarch - Lost City wrote: »

5sec sage stunning arrow sounds very crazy compared to demon's 3.5 sec stunning arrow.. can squeeze a extra attack in.


I always thought demon archer's stunning arrow is originally only just on par against sage's. Now if sage stunning arrow gains another 0.5sec stun, stunning arrow wise, I'm sure sage would have the obvious upper hand.

Yea a 5 sec stun is pretty OP for an archer. I find it annoyin for a demon archer with demon stunnin arrow....by the time the person is out of the stun, ur demon quickshot has just finished channelling and hits.....by which time ur target is off runnin in the opposite direction wasting ur demon QS proc >.<

I can see how that senario is fair if ur demon, but 3.5 sec stun is reaaaallllyyy short. A better balance would be making demon stunnin arrow 100% chance to stun instead of this 90% chance BS and let sage have their 5sec stun with 90% chance.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear

G_tar_God - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yea a 5 sec stun is pretty OP for an archer. I find it annoyin for a demon archer with demon stunnin arrow....by the time the person is out of the stun, ur demon quickshot has just finished channelling and hits.....by which time ur target is off runnin in the opposite direction wasting ur demon QS proc >.<

I can see how that senario is fair if ur demon, but 3.5 sec stun is reaaaallllyyy short. A better balance would be making demon stunnin arrow 100% chance to stun instead of this 90% chance BS and let sage have their 5sec stun with 90% chance.

Demons are already "OP" apparently since everyone picks it without even looking at skills or thinking about their playstyle. This is to bring back life into the few sage archers that exist. It's like a ratio of 30:1 in favor of demon.

Besides I'm almost positive even if we get all this stuff demon will still be autochoice because of the crit/aps crutch.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

a full buffed archer with JOSD has almost 20k hp and 7-10k m. def. Gush is only gonna do ~3-5k on an archer like that,

Might want to check your math... even with demon gush of base+100%+4k is not going to normal crit anywhere near 5k on a fully buffed jade archer... unless he got some serious debuff on him.

Burnout - Harshlands

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Might want to check your math... even with demon gush of base+100%+4k is not going to normal crit anywhere near 5k on a fully buffed jade archer... unless he got some serious debuff on him.

Sage gush hits harder than demon due to masteries....also the damage is HIGHLY variable because of 2 things - Undine strike, and magic def necks. Most archers go for phy defense on the neck, but these factors can change resistances by several thousand.

I don't have a R9 wizard to actually compare damages to, but my mystic typically hits 2-3k on JoSD archers on the base nuke, and wizards usually hit harder than that due to undine and better damage adds on their nuke.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

demon will still be autochoice because of the crit/aps crutch.

lol?? grats on sage actually getting good soon. meanwhile Ill enjoy my crit aps crutch but ill actually unequip my arrows since I dont want to have an arrow crutch advantage...

and its not about archer vs wizard, but archer play in general

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol?? grats on sage actually getting good soon. meanwhile Ill enjoy my crit aps crutch but ill actually unequip my arrows since I dont want to have an arrow crutch advantage...

and its not about archer vs wizard, but archer play in general

Sage was already good. Most just can't play it. The reason most people went demon back in the day was because before the jones blessing and endgame gear like this we did horrible damage in most cases. And in order to kill wizards and other better geared classes archers tended to need that aps boost from quickshot to finish the opponent back when we did like 1ks on wizards.

Todays generation follows that path blindly without even looking at the other option anymore because everyone else is. It's kinda like sins. Sage sins can be just as effective as a demon sin when played correctly.

I can't count the many times my 1v1s were won purely because of the range advantage I had over demon (they had equally and some had better gear).

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Sage gush hits harder than demon due to masteries....also the damage is HIGHLY variable because of 2 things - Undine strike, and magic def necks. Most archers go for phy defense on the neck, but these factors can change resistances by several thousand.

Yes, it is true that a typical r9 archer would use phy neck. But you yourself mention r9 jade archers... those are generally going to be wearing mag neck... at least stage 2 if not 3. at +10 stage 2 mag neck would push mag defense to ~10k.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I can't count the many times my 1v1s were won purely because of the range advantage I had over demon (they had equally and some had better gear).

I bet you did it without an arrow crutch either.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

I bet you did it without an arrow crutch either.

/pats head. If you're going to troll at least put an effort into it. QS and STA/Stunning crit bonus helps the demon archers get that little extra oomph they need for killing a target they normally wouldn't kill without. Sage doesn't have that and relies more heavily on charm bypass or skill combinations to kill while charms on CD. Basically it helps the average and bad player fail less when selecting demon. Doesn't mean there aren't good demon archers. Arrows can be accessed by both cultivations btw.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Do you honestly try to bypass charm on anyone that has decent gear? I think the last time I managed to bypass charm on a R9 was because I purged during Barrage...I don't think Sages set up combo "in case purge happens," so what's the deal?

Think about it...what is the highest you can hit on a R9 Jades with anything? Kiyoshi, do you get bypassed by Sage archers yes or no.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Do you honestly try to bypass charm on anyone that has decent gear? I think the last time I managed to bypass charm on a R9 was because I purged during Barrage...I don't think Sages set up combo "in case purge happens," so what's the deal?

Think about it...what is the highest you can hit on a R9 Jades with anything? Kiyoshi, do you get bypassed by Sage archers yes or no.

No Charm bypass is not my go to tactic. I've mostly done it during self buffed 1v1s or on purged targets where I get a non crit hit and then my follow up is a high end crit. I'm saying I have to rely more on that or charm cooldown I cant just auto attack most things to death that are well geared.

I don't pay attention to damage logs often so I don't know off hand. And I don't think Kiyo is a JoSD or finished built archer so not someone to ask.

Decus - Dreamweaver

Lol "crit/aps crutch." b:chuckle

Burnout - Harshlands

Purge crutch, frcken archers.


No, bow crutch.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Think about it...what is the highest you can hit on a R9 Jades with anything? Kiyoshi, do you get bypassed by Sage archers yes or no.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No Charm bypass is not my go to tactic. I've mostly done it during self buffed 1v1s or on purged targets where I get a non crit hit and then my follow up is a high end crit. I'm saying I have to rely more on that or charm cooldown I cant just auto attack most things to death that are well geared.

I don't think I ever got crit through charm by another sage archer. We all have the out of no where 10k+ crit on jades/heavies before. But your run of the mill crit isn't going to bypass any jade archer's charm. To have full jades you are going to have at least a full set of +10... and that automactically put you at 10k unbuffed hp... although most jade archers are going to be at 14k+ hp. And I highly doubt I can crit 5-7k with my +12 bow.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't think I ever got crit through charm by another sage archer. We all have the out of no where 10k+ crit on jades/heavies before. But your run of the mill crit isn't going to bypass any jade archer's charm. To have full jades you are going to have at least a full set of +10... and that automactically put you at 10k unbuffed hp... although most jade archers are going to be at 14k+ hp. And I highly doubt I can crit 5-7k with my +12 bow.

I am not claiming I hit 10ks on jaded people? O_o

My highest crit is when I hit them with Thunder shock Lightning Strike them which is usually my finisher when their charms are on CD since most of my opponents are stacked in PDef.

Quilue - Sanctuary

There's no reason why a Demon can't do the same though...and it's not like Demons just stun QS everything. Now, how would you take out most robes? Is it going to be stun + auto, STA stun + auto, or what?

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I am not claiming I hit 10ks on jaded people? O_o

My highest crit is when I hit them with Thunder shock Lightning Strike them which is usually my finisher when their charms are on CD since most of my opponents are stacked in PDef.

The difference is 3% between the 2 masteries... anything sage can crit through demon can do the same. If you are talking about magic attacks for pk... demon actually have an advantage over sage considering one of their metal doesn't miss.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

so i play a channeling wizard, which is amusing but overall a 'failure' of an endgame build. b:sad

I hit for less damage, I crit less, I haver lower pdef/atl lvl/def level, and die more then if I had standard r9 +10/12 josd. The only advantages I have are that I cast faster and my 'essential sutra' lasts for 15 seconds and only costs 1 spark (quaff) vs 6 seconds and 2 sparks.

I make use of the few advantages my build gives me by constantly ccing my opponent to 'defend' myself and comboing my lower chi cost sutra with ms (though normal wizards can do that as well) or several ultis together....




when it comes to sage archers... (i should just end here)

if you want to make a statement that player x does a good job/knows how to play a sage archer well then they 'should' be making usage of the few advantages that the sage culti offers.

statements such as.... i am better able to prolong a fight due to my higher chi gain, this allows me to 1) avoid death better 2) increase my odds of purging my opponent.
or
....
....
....
i cant think of any other significant advantages for examples b:cute (range and mastery hardly qualify for significant)


however we end up with a statemenabout how "pro" sage archers have to 'setup charm bypass' by ... wait for it ....


critting


yes leveraging the advantages of your culti i see...

meanwhile demon archers who crit buff themselves and use quick shot are clearly disabled...

I think we can all agree that the sage culti path is so bad that it is necessary to buff sage b:thanks

ty for making me laugh, it just makes me think of someone comparing spoons vs forks and stating that the fork clearly has some advantages over the spoon b/c it can be used to pierce things (okay sure) ... and then commences to attempt to eat soup with a fork.

shotwhointhewhat

I like how the sages are talking about demon having crutches and all.

After update, how many sages are going to be leaning on that crit boof like they couldn't stand without it?

unceuncerave

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

so i play a channeling wizard, which is amusing but overall a 'failure' of an endgame build. b:sad

I hit for less damage, I crit less, I haver lower pdef/atl lvl/def level, and die more then if I had standard r9 +10/12 josd. The only advantages I have are that I cast faster and my 'essential sutra' lasts for 15 seconds and only costs 1 spark (quaff) vs 6 seconds and 2 sparks.

I make use of the few advantages my build gives me by constantly ccing my opponent to 'defend' myself and comboing my lower chi cost sutra with ms (though normal wizards can do that as well) or several ultis together....




when it comes to sage archers... (i should just end here)

if you want to make a statement that player x does a good job/knows how to play a sage archer well then they 'should' be making usage of the few advantages that the sage culti offers.

statements such as.... i am better able to prolong a fight due to my higher chi gain, this allows me to 1) avoid death better 2) increase my odds of purging my opponent.
or
....
....
....
i cant think of any other significant advantages for examples b:cute (range and mastery hardly qualify for significant)


however we end up with a statemenabout how "pro" sage archers have to 'setup charm bypass' by ... wait for it ....


critting


yes leveraging the advantages of your culti i see...

meanwhile demon archers who crit buff themselves and use quick shot are clearly disabled...

I think we can all agree that the sage culti path is so bad that it is necessary to buff sage b:thanks

ty for making me laugh, it just makes me think of someone comparing spoons vs forks and stating that the fork clearly has some advantages over the spoon b/c it can be used to pierce things (okay sure) ... and then commences to attempt to eat soup with a fork.

Tell me honestly how often do you actually get to see the demon get the full use of their QS if their opponent knows what the ** they are doing? Barely any considering how short the demon path has a short stun duration is. People call it a crutch because it supports the fail archers and makes them a little less fail. Sage quickshot will do the same thing for fail sages. There are people from both culties who know how to play their class and then there's the majority who can't play for **** and spam stun/qs macros out the *** hoping to kill something. And don't say that's not true because I see it all the ****ing time. Sure Jen's not the brightest arrow in the quiver at some things but she does have a point. Just approaching it the wrong way.

Now of course we can all debate how we play each culty. I'd say teh real perks for sage is

20% STA hp reduction which makes it a bit easier for her "charm bypass method". Yes demon has 16% but I rarely see them use it at all.

That stacked with Sages longer metal debuff from Thundershock allows them to have longer "window" for a kill shot if you will. A ZTP Thundershock lightning strike and thunderous on a metal reduced target will most likely kill them if their charm is on cd.

I am not saying how he/she plays I'm just pointing out various things.

And unless she plans on Stunning and take aim charm bypassing a robe I'm prety sure its a stun / auto just like demon. But not like that matters since most robes die in a few hits from a r9 +12 anyways.

I will disagree with you and say Range CAN be a factor watch 2 archers trying to kite each other and that 2 meters can give sage that "hit" demon would've been "out of range" for or a few precious milliseconds to start casting a stun before demon can and then move out of range and aimlow giving sage 6 free seconds to wail on their target which forces them to tank it use an apoth or genie which is a +1 for sage because theirs won't be on cooldown. It's all about play style and using common sense. Of course however if demon gets their QS and stun off and the sage tries to stay and match the firepower demon is bringing at the table sage will lose.

shotwhointhewhat wrote: »

I like how the sages are talking about demon having crutches and all.

After update, how many sages are going to be leaning on that crit boof like they couldn't stand without it?

If they didn't need it before they won't need it now. Only fails without the coin to build a good archer will.

Quilue - Sanctuary

How many Sage archers do you see using...wait for it





skill and timing...






to kill robes...


Archers stun and auto attack because there is not much else that they need to do when fighting robes in mass PvP. You throw in skills here and there when people expel or Plume Shell...or you cancel your stun when people immune or use anti stun, but for the most part, we all admit it's stun + auto.

Talking about Sage using metal attacks on heavies or heavily pdef ornamented LA imply that Demons simply stun + auto everyone including heavies, which isn't even true.

The reason this pisses off people is because it's a thinly veiled attempt to say most Demons are dumb and need the help, which is just wtf. Every archer chooses what they think is best. Do you stat less dex or use crappier arrows because it's more challenging to play? Do you call people with more dex and better arrows having damage crutches? Same principle with having extra crit honestly...

Well I suppose dumber people would do better with better weapons and more crit than if they had no weapon and no crit. Really!

unceuncerave

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

How many Sage archers do you see using...wait for it





skill and timing...






to kill robes...


Archers stun and auto attack because there is not much else that they need to do when fighting robes in mass PvP. You throw in skills here and there when people expel or Plume Shell...or you cancel your stun when people immune or use anti stun, but for the most part, we all admit it's stun + auto.

Talking about Sage using metal attacks on heavies or heavily pdef ornamented LA imply that Demons simply stun + auto everyone including heavies, which isn't even true.

The reason this pisses off people is because it's a thinly veiled attempt to say most Demons are dumb and need the help, which is just wtf. Every archer chooses what they think is best. Do you stat less dex or use crappier arrows because it's more challenging to play? Do you call people with more dex and better arrows having damage crutches? Same principle with having extra crit honestly...

Well I suppose dumber people would do better with better weapons and more crit than if they had no weapon and no crit. Really!

If you read what I said I said in most cases it's Stun / auto just like demons. However in the case of 1v1s skill / timing can be a much better and effective method then a long drawn out battle where you waste more coin via genie skills/apoths/charms/etc.

I'm not just talking heavies. I'm also talking LA who stack PDEF like archers and sins. I still see archers qs macroing them when a simple 2 skill metal combo is more then efficent to kill them rather then taking longer using auto attack. This is not talking about JoSD +12 full decked out r9 archers which is a VERY small population. And yes most people who still play this game ARE dumb. I will say that. And since 90% or so of archers are demon MOST of them are dumb. Hell there are dumb sage archers too there's dumb of every class and cultivation. Comparing arrows and dex which keep in mind a lot waste into str to be fail claw archers to bonuses to 2 skills that almost every demon has a macro for.

Going off topic here a second to talk about why I think claws are fail.

Yes its my opinion and yes I can see the point in making a claw archer because it's slightly more cost effective but in the big scheme of things they suck ***. Their damage blows even more because of the damage nerf. They don't get bloodpaint which forces them to either pot or use the FC fists or recasted nirvana fists with vengeance on them which consumes even more str away from their dex. Yes we can argue you can ring engrave and change ornaments etc. But that's more cost and a hassle then its worth tbh over just making a sin and stashing 90% of your gear over.

Going back on topic again.

I've seen BMs fist a TW crystal.

I've seen Archers try to claw Heavies to death in TW.

I've seen archers try to kill people with the 50% SVA penalty.

I've seen all kinds of stupid **** in this game.

The biggest threat of archers comes their their ability to purge with their bows, not the stun/qs macros. Yet countless times I see that macro card played only for it to fail over and over. It's worse with archer 1v1s. I watched a fight last 20mins just because they were too busy trying to 1 up the other with a purge/stun/qs combo and running away the rest of the time.

Don't get me wrong I like both cultivations for various reasons and there are some damn good demon archers. Demon is just the easier route for difficulty in playing, doesn't make them better for it though.

INB4YesItMeansSageSucksAndTheyNeededThisUpdate.

Again I'll say it. If they didn't need it before they won't need it now.

Decus - Dreamweaver

shotwhointhewhat wrote: »

I like how the sages are talking about demon having crutches and all.

After update, how many sages are going to be leaning on that crit boof like they couldn't stand without it?

^ This.