Archer Skill Changes in "Dynasty" Expansion

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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    The point is, Sages are supposed to hit harder while Demons are supposed to play for chain crits. To give Sage 20% more crit is just an ugly thing to do when they could be buffed in other ways. Crit damage buff is scary too, especially since archer base damage is so high and Sage base crit rate cannot be that shabby either. It's not a bad thing that they tried to balance, I'm just not liking their approach. ******** about thematic things if you will.

    I don't really understand how your reference can be possible. I guessed ~2k more raw damage from just a rough estimate of weapon damage ranges.

    Sage Blazing + Mastery is about 25% more weapon damage.

    Let's just say one has +12 Firmament, for the highest possible gain you can possibly have from the 25% weapon damage:

    3326 average weapon damage
    200 from 2 Drakeflames
    ~300 from Sky Cover and R9 ring
    ~150 from arrows

    Makes about 4k weapon damage total. Now you see where my estimate of 2k extra damage assuming 100 attack levels comes from. Blazing actually doesn't even account for rings, don't know if it accounts for arrows but I just assumed full 25% extra weapon damage for simplicity.

    If you really hit 2k more in PvP than your demon friend, then the differences comes from more than your culti paths.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Well when I Fun PvP with a friend of mine in the same gear I hit about 2ks higher then him (4ks if crits) also to note this is from an unbuffed standpoint. When it's fully buffed it's only about 1k higher. If you would like a reference.

    You also have to remember that though in most cases its inconsequential Sage DOES have a higher range that coupled with our longer stun can allow us to do A LOT more potential damage before you can retaliate. (This can be extended with aim low etc) now of course this is potential damage as you can counter with genies and apothocary, but then that's an advantage sage will have over demon because you will have something on cooldown.

    Funny you should say chi gain btw. Because they just nerfed my Sage wingspans Chi gain from 100 to 50 at some point ago.

    Thats not because you are sage, it's because you are 105. Your friend is probably 102 and gets 10% damage reduction on a level 105.

    Sage damage is at most 25% weapon attack higher than demon (actually less than that since blazing doesnt use full weapon attack). A +12 r9 bow archer will have like 3400 weapon attack.
    25% of that is 850, 100 attack levels increases it to 1700 but factor in 75% pvp damage reduction and you get 412 more damage. That is on someone with 0 pdef though. With 8k pdef sage will be hitting like 140 more damage.

    EDIT ninjaed by smart qui! Also she was smarter than me and remembered to add gems to the weapon! Too bad she forgot about 75% pvp reduction.
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I got mine from Worldbosses back when it took an ENTIRE faction to take one down. b:surrender

    I think I paid 3mil per.. after discount (So I paid ~125mil for both of mine that's including medium ink)

    My are free... if you don't count the time it took me to farm them. Lure soul hunter to behind some tree... weight down arch attack key and veno's amp key... afk... come back and collect chronos/perfs. Manage to get enough for both 100 skills before i even touched a cv. That being said... no way i am going to repeat that again.

    I never liked guild runs for anything. It seems that everything goes to "guild bank"... which is more or less a black hole as far as I am concerned.
    XxRagzxx - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sage got a really good overhaul imo. I don't think demon is an auto choice any more. If you can invest a decent amount of coin into an Archer, sage might be the way to go. Demon always had the crit and aps advantage, but now it looks like sage easily wins in terms of crit. I find this severely disappointing, after it took them this long to "re-balance".

    Being a sage archer myself. Demon is still the auto choice for anyone who doesn't have 2 coins to rub together. Doesn't matter how much you can crit... if your damage is ****... an extra or two crit isn't going to help at all. That being said... for the archers who does matter (r9 and equivalent)... sage quickshot just might surpass demon version pending its actually 100% increase crit... when averaged out.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Thats not because you are sage, it's because you are 105. Your friend is probably 102 and gets 10% damage reduction on a level 105.

    Sage damage is at most 25% weapon attack higher than demon (actually less than that since blazing doesnt use full weapon attack). A +12 r9 bow archer will have like 3400 weapon attack.
    25% of that is 850, 100 attack levels increases it to 1700 but factor in 75% pvp damage reduction and you get 412 more damage. That is on someone with 0 pdef though. With 8k pdef sage will be hitting like 140 more damage.

    EDIT ninjaed by smart qui! Also she was smarter than me and remembered to add gems to the weapon! Too bad she forgot about 75% pvp reduction.

    Hes level 103 no damage reduction. We are also sharded with vits not JoSD. (I got them back before anyone realized how good JoSD were and hes too poor to afford JoSD)

    But /shrug.

    Perhaps the stats points might make a difference since hes a claw archer and I'm minimum str pure dex.
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    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    sage quickshot just might surpass demon version pending its actually 100% increase crit... when averaged out.

    Ehh... 20% crit on top of 40% crit is just... 14% more dps.
    My quickshot proc takes me from .87aps to 1.25aps.. 44% more dps
    The demon quickshot proc also has synergy with the extra crit from stun arrow since the dps stacks. Also the added aps has synergy with the purge on the bow.

    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Perhaps the stats points might make a difference since hes a claw archer and I'm minimum str pure dex.
    Maybe he had a low end shot or he forgot to wear a blessing. If sages were really hitting 2k higher in PVP per shot no one would be demon.
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ehh... 20% crit on top of 40% crit is just... 14% more dps.
    My quickshot proc takes me from .87aps to 1.25aps.. 44% more dps
    The demon quickshot proc also has synergy with the extra crit from stun arrow since the dps stacks. Also the added aps has synergy with the purge on the bow.

    The difference isn't just 44% vs 14%... considering it seems that every one forgets about the other 50% where demon doesn't proc. I did mention "when averaged out"... so your 44% just became 22%. Demon last for 6 seconds vs. 10 seconds for sage... so that'll bring down (when averaged out) the difference even more. If we are going for absolute average damage... then sage mastery and fire arrow would close the average damage gap even more.

    Of course this is all what if this and chance that. given everything those without 2 coins to rub together should still go demon... no questions asked. But personally... i'll still take my sage crit.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Because Sage advantage over Demon is consistent, they need to be very small for each individual skill while Demon spikes like crazy from one state to the next.

    Don't forget about the 25 chi gain with Sage QS either.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The difference isn't just 44% vs 14%... considering it seems that every one forgets about the other 50% where demon doesn't proc. I did mention "when averaged out"... so your 44% just became 22%. Demon last for 6 seconds vs. 10 seconds for sage... so that'll bring down (when averaged out) the difference even more. If we are going for absolute average damage... then sage mastery and fire arrow would close the average damage gap even more.

    Of course this is all what if this and chance that. given everything those without 2 coins to rub together should still go demon... no questions asked. But personally... i'll still take my sage crit.

    Well keep in mind the cooldown is only 3 seconds. If it doesnt proc the first time you can cast it again. Also we arent talking about DPS ing a boss here in PVE (at least I'm not). We are talking about being able to kill someone in the 10s window before their charm ticks. If youre trying to fit as much damage into that window as you can being able to amp your damage by 44% is pretty damn useful.
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well keep in mind the cooldown is only 3 seconds. If it doesnt proc the first time you can cast it again. Also we arent talking about DPS ing a boss here in PVE (at least I'm not). We are talking about being able to kill someone in the 10s window before their charm ticks. If youre trying to fit as much damage into that window as you can being able to amp your damage by 44% is pretty damn useful.

    Even with the 3s cool down... there is still a good 25% chance that neither of the 2 quickshot did anything except slow down your otherwise normal hit rate. I am not trying to fit every (or any) average joe in to my calculations. an extra 20% chance to double damage on top of what people of my gear level can already do is nothing to sneeze at.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well keep in mind the cooldown is only 3 seconds. If it doesnt proc the first time you can cast it again. Also we arent talking about DPS ing a boss here in PVE (at least I'm not). We are talking about being able to kill someone in the 10s window before their charm ticks. If youre trying to fit as much damage into that window as you can being able to amp your damage by 44% is pretty damn useful.

    That's assuming your targets just going to stand there and take those hits :P

    Optimumially you're not going to get that 44% increase for very long if at all unless you're against a caster or another archer and their stunning skill is on CD.

    And at that point I'd rather just Thundershock / Lightningstrike them down because most people stack Pdef ornaments not Mdef. There are a few who balance but in most cases the players pdef is higher then the mdef (most casters are excluded from this).

    So you could in theory pop Sage QS Stage stun Thunder shock and Lightning strike and that can probably bring down most targets assuming their genie skill is on CD since you can do all of that in under 10 seconds.
    [SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    In all fairness... are we really arguing over quickshots. The 5 or so semi active sage archers on HT did just fine without the upgrade. The upgrade can only make them better. All other sage archers will still remain just as useless even with the upgrade.

    Personally... I been known to hit by vow every now and then. Now that they lowered the cool down time... I am more worried about getting hit by them then any enemy sage's quickshot.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Cool. Idc how it updates everything but it is great to see something actually change in the game for once without it looking like a text edit accident (I'm looking at you Wingspan >.>).

    Can I get some clarification on how long sage stun is now? It is currently 4.5 secs.


    Also, why do things in this game keep sharing names with factions on my server?

    Dynasty. Tempest (Packs). Re(genesis).
    Ring Engraving/Amulet Carving Guide - pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1174451

    Retired from PWI.

    b:bye
  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Interesting discussion
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Also, why do things in this game keep sharing names with factions on my server?

    Dynasty. Tempest (Packs). Re(genesis).

    Because the game is telling you which of those three is obviously the best.

    /shamelessplug

    Back on topic, the one or two PvP-relevant sage archers on DW will hit like a truck now... if I ever see them in TW...
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
    Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
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  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Hmm, well it's not so bad for demons.

    We still have 4% base crit advantage(assuming ppl have their skills/wings) and 10% w/ sta and stun. That will put us at a relative 14% compared to a sage's 20%

    and we still have demon QS to pair w/ our crit buffs and barrage.

    Still sucks tho, goes against the division of sage and demon as it relates to archer class.
  • DarkMarch - Lost City
    DarkMarch - Lost City Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    5sec sage stunning arrow sounds very crazy compared to demon's 3.5 sec stunning arrow.. can squeeze a extra attack in.


    I always thought demon archer's stunning arrow is originally only just on par against sage's. Now if sage stunning arrow gains another 0.5sec stun, stunning arrow wise, I'm sure sage would have the obvious upper hand.
  • Moranine - Lost City
    Moranine - Lost City Posts: 319 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    I think Ill actually get Awaken now. I might be able to rid my genie of Cloud Eruption and get something more useful, like an anti stun or something.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • unceuncerave
    unceuncerave Posts: 471 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    In all fairness... are we really arguing over quickshots. The 5 or so semi active sage archers on HT did just fine without the upgrade. The upgrade can only make them better. All other sage archers will still remain just as useless even with the upgrade.

    Personally... I been known to hit by vow every now and then. Now that they lowered the cool down time... I am more worried about getting hit by them then any enemy sage's quickshot.
    Since when did HT have any good sage archers let alone 5? List them please.
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Hmm, well it's not so bad for demons.

    We still have 4% base crit advantage(assuming ppl have their skills/wings) and 10% w/ sta and stun. That will put us at a relative 14% compared to a sage's 20%

    and we still have demon QS to pair w/ our crit buffs and barrage.

    Still sucks tho, goes against the division of sage and demon as it relates to archer class.
    you get 12% if you're using the natural elf wings in PvP then no comment.
    Quit putting up QS as if its a major factor. It's not. Time and time again this isnt 2009 when we did sht damage and needed qs to be able to kill sht. As for Barrage dont make me laugh. How often can you HONESTLY say your barrage lasted more then 18 seconds to get in that free attack over sage unless the other TW team are completely stupid or youre in their base using on the crystal.

    Use some brain power you're making demon archers look stupid.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] for GD Onion 2012 b:victory
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    In all fairness... are we really arguing over quickshots. The 5 or so semi active sage archers on HT did just fine without the upgrade. The upgrade can only make them better. All other sage archers will still remain just as useless even with the upgrade.

    Personally... I been known to hit by vow every now and then. Now that they lowered the cool down time... I am more worried about getting hit by them then any enemy sage's quickshot.

    Who's wasting Bloodvow on an archer in TW? >_>

    You need to smack them for me -_-

    That's like using Eagleon on a barb to reduce their movement speed b:shutup
    [SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    I really believe that it's a playstyle thing and you can be Effective with either, it's a game play how you want
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    witniss wrote: »
    I really believe that it's a playstyle thing and you can be Effective with either, it's a game play how you want

    I agree with this. It doesn't matter what cultivation you choose their is little difference between the two. If you can't play your class correctly it doesn't matter which cultivation you pick. Demon however has more crutches to support players of a lower playing ability then sage does.
    [SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I agree with this. It doesn't matter what cultivation you choose their is little difference between the two. If you can't play your class correctly it doesn't matter which cultivation you pick. Demon however has more crutches to support players of a lower playing ability then sage does.

    You're gonna catch **** for that
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    witniss wrote: »
    You're gonna catch **** for that

    I think that its a mutual agreement for everyone on that. I'm not saying demon archers cant play. I'm saying its easier for people to use a demon archer. Just like sins. Sages are rare and can be just as deadly as demons when played right. Not saying demon sins can't play but there are quite a few idiots among them, there are as well as idiots in the sage cultivation but far fewer because it's a little harder so most stay away from it.
    [SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Well, pulling off an 18s Barrage is highly possible these days. I've gotten off very long Barrages even against experienced factions. When you're immune and people realize that their spells are being wasted, they usually switch targets and will typically take at least a second to switch back to you if they haven't tried to run out of range. This is with Barrage raining on at least some of them as well as with your teammates attacking them all the while.

    Realistically, what it does is save you a second for every 2 waves, giving Demons the chance to cast something else after doing a number of Barrage waves while their immunes are still active. Some people choose to just stand there and die when their immunes run out, some people try to get away.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I think that its a mutual agreement for everyone on that. I'm not saying demon archers cant play. I'm saying its easier for people to use a demon archer. Just like sins. Sages are rare and can be just as deadly as demons when played right. Not saying demon sins can't play but there are quite a few idiots among them, there are as well as idiots in the sage cultivation but far fewer because it's a little harder so most stay away from it.

    That's really bizarre logic. If one path is easier to kill people with while the other path is harder to play and harder to kill people with it's pretty disingenuous to claim that the two paths are still somehow equal. The first one is simply better.

    The devs are actually in agreement with this which is why they felt it necessary to buff some sage abilities. This is good but I'm not convinced adding those buffs goes far enough to bring sage up to demon's level. It definitely reduces the gap.
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  • Troll_demon - Harshlands
    Troll_demon - Harshlands Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    demon spark still better than these skills
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That's really bizarre logic. If one path is easier to kill people with while the other path is harder to play and harder to kill people with it's pretty disingenuous to claim that the two paths are still somehow equal. The first one is simply better.

    The devs are actually in agreement with this which is why they felt it necessary to buff some sage abilities. This is good but I'm not convinced adding those buffs goes far enough to bring sage up to demon's level. It definitely reduces the gap.

    It's only harder for the inexperienced to play not kill people I guess there was some misinterpretation in how I wrote it and how you read it. If one knows how to play their class and combine skills properly they shouldn't have a problem with either cultivation.

    It's just kinda easier when mostly demon makes stun/qs and sta/qs variant macros where as sage relies more heavily on charm bypass or finishing combos when their charm is on cd.

    Both can kill the player. One is just just easier for the less experienced player. Doesn't make either better or worse.
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    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

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  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Both can kill the player. One is just just easier for the less experienced player. Doesn't make either better or worse.

    You have two knives.

    One is dull on the edge, rusty, and made of cheap metal. The point is still sharp, and can still be used as a weapon.

    The other knife is sharp, new, and made of good metal. It can also be used as a weapon.


    Clearly, these two knives are equal because they both can be used to murder someone. It just depends on the skill of the murderer. The qualities and characteristics of the individual knives are obviously irrelevant when judging which knife is better.
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You have two knives.

    One is dull on the edge, rusty, and made of cheap metal. The point is still sharp, and can still be used as a weapon.

    The other knife is sharp, new, and made of good metal. It can also be used as a weapon.


    Clearly, these two knives are equal because they both can be used to murder someone. It just depends on the skill of the murderer. The qualities and characteristics of the individual knives are obviously irrelevant when judging which knife is better.

    While it's not that bad of an analogy, though you make the first knife (sage) seem very inferior to the second knife (demon). The second knife should have some flaw to is such as its tip was broken off but still has very sharp serrated edges to be fair.

    In either case the tool shouldn't be whats valued over the wielder of the tool and how successful they were at using it.
    [SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    That's a rather morbid analogy, Lady Teapot :S

    It did not sparkle with me at all.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty

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