New Skill Rebalance In China

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  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    So Reel In and if they keep trying to run then Reckless follow by chain stun combos? That's just what I would do. b:surrender
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  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So Reel In and if they keep trying to run then Reckless follow by chain stun combos? That's just what I would do. b:surrender

    Sadly, Reel In depends on the difference of Soul Force. Which means that a lower refined person trying to Reel In some +12 R9, it'll have a low success rate. And even if we're talking equals, it's only 70%.

    And even without that, Reel In has a 25m range. Most ranged skills in teh game are beyond that. Wizards have 28.5m, Clerics have 26.5m, Archers have 30m, Venomancers have 25.5m, Psychics are also 28.5m, Mystics got 26.5m, just like Clerics. The only exception would be Seekers are 25m. And of course, the Sage/Demon versions have even more, while Reel In stays at 25m.
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  • _Lisanna_ - Lothranis
    _Lisanna_ - Lothranis Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sadly, Reel In depends on the difference of Soul Force. Which means that a lower refined person trying to Reel In some +12 R9, it'll have a low success rate. And even if we're talking equals, it's only 70%.

    And even without that, Reel In has a 25m range. Most ranged skills in teh game are beyond that. Wizards have 28.5m, Clerics have 26.5m, Archers have 30m, Venomancers have 25.5m, Psychics are also 28.5m, Mystics got 26.5m, just like Clerics. The only exception would be Seekers are 25m. And of course, the Sage/Demon versions have even more, while Reel In stays at 25m.

    What I will say to that is, if you're severely under geared compared to your opponent (no offense) you shouldn't be fighting them. At worst it is still a 40% chance which isn't that bad.

    Now yes while 25 meters doesn't seem much compared to the casters skills etc. It's all in relevance. You're average player moves at least 5.0meters a second without archer buffs etc. you can get in that range and cast that skill in under 2-3 seconds.
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  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What I will say to that is, if you're severely under geared compared to your opponent (no offense) you shouldn't be fighting them. At worst it is still a 40% chance which isn't that bad.

    The problem is that all we know about the Soulforce based skills is usually their minimum and maximum. We don't know exactly how it works.

    For example, if 20k vs 20k soulforce is 70%, then what is 18k vs 20k? What about 22k vs 20k? And how much more do you really need to get to the maximum? How much less can you have until you hit the rock bottom?

    And it's really easy for nearly identical gears to have very different soulforces:
    R9+10: 27,131
    R9+11: 37,231
    R9+12: 55,811

    So are you going to tell me that R9+11 shouldn't even try to fight someone who's R9+12? Because that's ridiculous.

    And due to the way soulforce works, the only thing that's going to match R9 with equal refines in soulforce is going to be G16 nirvana or R9 itself. So are you going to tell me that someone who's got a full set of G15 Nirvana shouldn't fight R9s?
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  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So Reel In and if they keep trying to run then Reckless follow by chain stun combos? That's just what I would do. b:surrender
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sadly, Reel In depends on the difference of Soul Force. Which means that a lower refined person trying to Reel In some +12 R9, it'll have a low success rate. And even if we're talking equals, it's only 70%.

    And even without that, Reel In has a 25m range. Most ranged skills in teh game are beyond that. Wizards have 28.5m, Clerics have 26.5m, Archers have 30m, Venomancers have 25.5m, Psychics are also 28.5m, Mystics got 26.5m, just like Clerics. The only exception would be Seekers are 25m. And of course, the Sage/Demon versions have even more, while Reel In stays at 25m.

    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What I will say to that is, if you're severely under geared compared to your opponent (no offense) you shouldn't be fighting them. At worst it is still a 40% chance which isn't that bad.

    Now yes while 25 meters doesn't seem much compared to the casters skills etc. It's all in relevance. You're average player moves at least 5.0meters a second without archer buffs etc. you can get in that range and cast that skill in under 2-3 seconds.
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

    And due to the way soulforce works, the only thing that's going to match R9 with equal refines in soulforce is going to be G16 nirvana or R9 itself. So are you going to tell me that someone who's got a full set of G15 Nirvana shouldn't fight R9s?

    You two need to go out on a date, get a room, and get it over with already.

    Reel in stops Barrage and Vortex. That's its main use. Others is Reeling people into the air to **** with them, or reeling in and hitting a stun skill. You can also throw barbs and others out of position well with it. In most cases though, you're probably better off doing something else with that chi. Reel + Reckless is kinda a waste, they're already kinda stopped-in-motion with plenty of time to just roar really.

    With a chi lowering it's more useful for sure. BMs arent meant to be super long range, I feel Reckless could use a bump, but they're all fine as is honestly.

    In terms of success rate, at my current refines its about 70% overall. I've never failed on a certain catabarb who is R9+12 everything. Yet I've failed EVERY SINGLE TIME (Like 6 times in a row on one day, 3 times another time) on an Archer buddy, who I overgear by a considerable amount. Really the % factor in this makes it so random its almost not worth discussing. It would be fine if it was auto success rate. It's practically 50-50 at any soulforce though.
    pwcalc.com/bb6fc16982637a5c / pwcalc.com/28948ee5778526f5
  • Edalus - Momaganon
    Edalus - Momaganon Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    ... Most games have a slow effect, or a time limit, or xxx skills can't be used, etc. PWI's negative effect? A pathetic mp drain that cleric buffs alone can more or less remove. Hell, before they nerf it, you could even demon spark in stealth.

    Stealth is powerful, but yes it is something any assassin class would require, people know that, it was just the way stealth was implemented in the game that pissed people off so much.

    Yes, some games put on the stealth class a slow effect in stealth which is sometimes nearly diminished by a talent tree.
    Sometimes they are unable to use all skills but at the same time they get other skills to use in stealth or that are stronger used out of stealth; and in another specific game they get a 24 sec CC skill that will not pop the user out of stealth and is readily re-usable (but the target has to be out of combat).

    The problem is, like this thread is showing us again, that most peeps do not get that the devs tried to implement a stealth class at all, and like the name said it is a class using stealth as a way to kill in both PvE and PvP.
    Really I do not like PvP in PWI as the peeps are utterly envious of something they do not have.

    But a means to counter stealth would be AoEs which do not need a target to be cast on or that a SIN is shortly visible when he walks through a player and attackable for that moment.

    By the comparision with the BM I wanted to say: peeps here do not understand how a stealth class works, they want just another random DD melee class that is just using funky daggers at all.

    So, I am a bit disappointed that the devs are not going to improve the implementation of the stealth class in PWI. I am not talking about making SINS stronger just that their skills should get more balanced with other classes and do no longer seem like some random funky moves.
  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    But you have to think of the developers. Assassin is by far the most popular class, so nerfing them would produce quite an outrage.

    I'm willing to bet assassins and their role in killing PVP contributed far more to people getting bored and quitting the game than the # of ppl who started playing because of sins.

    PWI killed their own game by being unable to cater to an American audience, who are generally equally concerned about pve AND pvp balance @ the same time.

    And yes, I agree with the above poster about stealth, and imo the way stealth was implemented in this game is a big red flag to me that the devs have no idea how to make a game with even a small semblance of balance.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    We should accept that sins should do more damage than any other class just because they are melee range and wearing LA armor...so that's fine. The problem is they tried to give sins good recovery and followup during combat via massive chi gain, but because sins suffered from kiters just like all melee classes...devs gave them long disable skills...

    So you have what we see now. Sin disable is both easier to carry out and just as potent as BM disable, only difference is sins **** chi. Sins 3 spark just to purify themselves. Even stealth gives a spark.

    The whole class needs to be remade into something that is similar to archers. Cheap stuns, shorter cd, not as much chi gain, poke for crit chains to kill people. Reduce their teleport cd so they can have faster access to targets as well.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
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  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    We should accept that sins should do more damage than any other class just because they are melee range and wearing LA armor...so that's fine. The problem is they tried to give sins good recovery and followup during combat via massive chi gain, but because sins suffered from kiters just like all melee classes...devs gave them long disable skills...

    So you have what we see now. Sin disable is both easier to carry out and just as potent as BM disable, only difference is sins **** chi. Sins 3 spark just to purify themselves. Even stealth gives a spark.

    The whole class needs to be remade into something that is similar to archers. Cheap stuns, shorter cd, not as much chi gain, poke for crit chains to kill people. Reduce their teleport cd so they can have faster access to targets as well.

    Actually, if they just made it so sins couldn't use occult ice, that would honestly fix a lot of issues. I think sins would actually be somewhat balanced, except for the stealth. It would actually be possible to reliably kite a sin.

    IMO their CC is balanced, they really only have 1 reusable stun and it costs 2 sparks, has a 30s recast time, and 30% of that duration is spent in casting animation. Their seal + immobilize combo also costs 1 spark, and 4 seconds of the root time is spent casting, leaving 3 seconds of seal and 5 seconds of root. Their sleep is good for stalling, but really most sins only use it to wait out their occult ice timer.

    The fact that an APS class with that much dps gets access to a ranged 10m, 6 sec, no cast time stun every 15 seconds really puts them over the top in 1v1 situations.

    Take away occult ice, and 99% of sins will have no idea how to stunlock a target for efficient APS, and it also doesn't destroy their TW or PVE utility/dps.
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    I replied to the 7th topic on the 1st page of mystic forums, and got reported for necro. Plz save mystic forums.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Actually if you take a look at BM stuns, their cast time is pretty long as well. BMs have this short channel time but longer cast time, implying a more supportive role as they can stun quickly but require friends to act immediately afterwards. Drake Bash and Roar both require 1.5s+ cast time. Aeolian Blade is bad too...except only 3s stun.

    Archers have short cast times, but longer channel times, so their stuns come out slower but they can act almost immediately afterwards. This implies a killer class with its long range compensated by longer channel time.

    Sins should really have neither long channel time nor long cast time because they are not supports like BMs, but the way the devs balanced it, this is what they have atm. If they had shorter stuns this wouldn't be necessary either. The point of sins is to try to stun and kill quickly, not stand there for 1s+ casting, yet if they don't have a long cast time, they'd be much harder to survive.

    I agree Occult Ice is broken, requiring no channel nor cast time and stacks with regular stuns. It might be necessary for BMs and barbs but much more OP on sins.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    This must be bumped
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  • TieIer - Dreamweaver
    TieIer - Dreamweaver Posts: 180 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    if u use google chrome it will translate the page really well
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  • Sjuggs - Lost City
    Sjuggs - Lost City Posts: 617 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    bump b:surrender
  • Morridune - Raging Tide
    Morridune - Raging Tide Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    bump for the peps who keep telling me they cant find
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I'm really looking forward to the BM changes. Shat, I might even go sage for this!
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Azura - Lost City
    Azura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    anti spam bump
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  • crystalpink
    crystalpink Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Azura - Lost City wrote: »
    anti spam bump

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  • Aurantiumina - Heavens Tear
    Aurantiumina - Heavens Tear Posts: 344 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    anti spam bump
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  • Adilah - Dreamweaver
    Adilah - Dreamweaver Posts: 47 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Bump D:
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  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Bump for usage.
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    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • Rerum - Sanctuary
    Rerum - Sanctuary Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Missed cleric skill Wings of protection: Cooldown reduced to 60 seconds from 3 mins.
    How to play the game? 5.0 has the final say!!!
  • StarianNight - Dreamweaver
    StarianNight - Dreamweaver Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Rerum - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Missed cleric skill Wings of protection: Cooldown reduced to 60 seconds from 3 mins.

    b:dirty yay \o/ so happy, more ways to protect my team b:cute
  • Arctix - Dreamweaver
    Arctix - Dreamweaver Posts: 124 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    StarianNight - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    b:dirty yay \o/ so happy, more ways to protect my team b:cute

    Niner says otherwise b:shocked
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Rerum - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Missed cleric skill Wings of protection: Cooldown reduced to 60 seconds from 3 mins.

    WTB> CD on Guardian Light reduced to 2-3mins. ;-;
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  • Sjuggs - Lost City
    Sjuggs - Lost City Posts: 617 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    bump, bots spamming b:sad
  • ElderSig - Dreamweaver
    ElderSig - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Bump >____>

    Damn bots
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  • VenusArmani - Dreamweaver
    VenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Bumping because of spam.
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  • Rerum - Sanctuary
    Rerum - Sanctuary Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    PWC acknowledges the problem with current pet system of venomancers, and promises changes, it seems that the pet system is going to receive a major overhaul, they promise to increase the status of existing pets and that the pet will grow stronger based on their masters, they are even stating on the news that is Venomancers time to regain their past glory.

    They also are saying that this is only the first wave of skill balancing. Seems like the constant complaining on wanmei forums is finally working.

    Seems like two new pets on the pics.

    http://w2i.wanmei.com/news/gamenews/20120907/66814.shtml
    How to play the game? 5.0 has the final say!!!
  • _Nerox_ - Dreamweaver
    _Nerox_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 753 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Rerum - Sanctuary wrote: »
    PWC acknowledges the problem with current pet system of venomancers, and promises changes, it seems that the pet system is going to receive a major overhaul, they promise to increase the status of existing pets and that the pet will grow stronger based on their masters, they are even stating on the news that is Venomancers time to regain their past glory.

    They also are saying that this is only the first wave of skill balancing. Seems like the constant complaining on wanmei forums is finally working.

    Seems like two new pets on the pics.

    http://w2i.wanmei.com/news/gamenews/20120907/66814.shtml

    U belive in santa to?b:cute
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I Miss the old days of PWIb:surrender

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