HT: A case study in what TW was meant to be
Miugre - Heavens Tear
Posts: 2,390 Arc User
When I started PWI back in 2008, HT's Territory War map was mostly divided among RoC, Radiance, TheEmpire, and Evolution. At the time I simply looked at it and thought, "huh...", and didn't give it further thought. TW, I reasoned, would be something to care about if I ever enjoyed PWI enough to make it to a reasonably high level.
Fast forward 1.5 - 2 years, and I'm in my 90s. Back when I joined, I'd have considered that high enough to try TW. But look what I have to contend with. Jones Blessings. Packs and the gear related to them. "Easy" access to +10 gear. Rank 8 becoming a common standard instead of an elite distinction based on helping others. Rank 9 becoming possible, but only accessible to those with far too much time and money. And lest we forget, the scourge of high-aps fist builds. It became clear that any foray I made into TW would end in me being flattened alongside the road, in a manner seemingly designed to punish me for my deliberately less-than-"pro" build.
Where was the intrigue? Where was the spirit of a "good fight" that all HT's top factions love to brag about? It all rings a little hollow when the map is a single color. I know next to nothing about the drama in HT's top factions, but from a third-party perspective, "pay to win" seemed to be the only principle that was ever adhered to in TW.
So imagine my surprise when I hear about the TW map reset coming with Genesis. HT only has maybe half a dozen "big" factions, and even they were predicting that TW would be interesting again for a month or so.
My main's faction, Hikari, has maybe 10-15 TW-capable members, but we knew that the PVE element would be a pushover. So we made a bid on Ancient Wall and got it. Piece of cake. The second week, by whatever miracle, we were not bid on, and our own bid was beat out. So it fell to this past weekend to determine how "real" a TW experience I and my faction would get.
We bid on DimSum, our neighbors to the east, and were bid on ourselves by Progress. We knew little about either opponent at the time - to say our intel was "spotty" would be a huge understatement. All we knew is that DimSum had few members (core reported 22), and that they were also defending against another faction at the same time. On our side, we had one ex-Enrage and one ex-Rad to brief us on the basics, and a handful of other would-be TW aficionados. We figured we might have a ghost of a chance.
Turns out "ghost" was the operative word. We lasted 1.5 hours into the attack, at one point damaging their crystal to roughly half its health. After that point, the tables clearly turned and our leader decided we should leave lest we be kill-farmed at our spawn. So that was that. What was interesting about that TW was how long we held out and what changed. DimSum had three archers (to my recollection), all of which were sporting Lunar bows. They had a mystic who was lv100. And they had an assassin who was clearly as close to 5.0 aps as one can manage with daggers. We had none of these things. So why did it take them so long? From what I could tell, two things changed which made up that difference: (a) they realized we weren't going to just be pushovers, and (b) they brought in a few people from their other fight, which was still going on at the time.
I can't really tell you which of their characters annoyed me the most. Maybe it was all of them. To me, each of them represented a different aspect of PVP (Lunar weaponry, powerleveling, and massive aps, respectively) which had contributed to the loss of balance and intrigue which kept me from TW in the first place.
By the next morning we had learned the truth - they were a faction made up primarily of alts from Enrage and GoldDigrz. The only member of our faction who knew this was absent during the intel discussions.
The next day, we had our own land to defend. We knew little about our attacker, Progress, until 2 hours before the fight, when I happened upon them holding a "practice" meeting in South Arch. Slightly paranoid after the DimSum encounter, I alted to my assassin and observed them from a nearby rooftop while in stealth. I managed to learn that they had about the same numbers as us, and had more rank-8 members than we did, but also had a few more mid-leveled (70s and 80s) members than us. Most encouraging to me was that none of them had high aps builds - a few of them seemed to be designed for modest aps, much like the BMs in my faction.
All of this only served one purpose, for me: intrigue. I had learned a good deal, and yet I still didn't know who would win. That right there was the element that made it fun for me. I fitted myself out for TW like I had the night before - a Jones blessing (hey, it was the one broken element of PVP that at least everyone had equal access to), fresh charms from the event boutique, the latest attack heiros for my weapon, my stack of 34k Dragotenna Arrows, and even a rune (generously donated by a friend in Rad). This time, I brought spark apocs too.
For their part, Progress made a spirited attempt. What we didn't know is that this was their first TW (as told to me by the leader afterwards) and they were lacking in strategy and, potentially, mechanical knowledge of TW. We built towers, we stuck together, but we ended up meeting less resistance than we expected. And yet, for me at least, it was still a challenge to pick out the most threatening targets and try not to die in the process. It was a learning experience. It was fun. Afterwards, chatting with their leader, I felt compelled to invite him to re-bid on us next week. Hell, it would beat being bid on by our neighbors (not that I expect us to even show against some of them, but wth - our secret is out by now).
So what's the point of all this? Well, two reasons. The first, to retell my own experience in TW from the viewpoint of a casual, "non-pro" player who is interested in PVP as a theoretical concept, but sorely disappointed in PVP in its current state. I never seem to hear from people like this.
The other reason is to formally make a request to frankieraye and whatever other GMs and execs are in charge of TW policy. I propose a semi-regular TW map reset. In HT's case, I feel that a period of three to four months between each reset would be appropriate.
Let's face facts: before Genesis, no casual player had a prayer of holding a territory, and even the other serious factions could not topple Enrage. This left virtually no motivation for an aspiring TW fighter to better themselves, be it in gear or skill. And if one managed to emerge, the best they could hope for is to be assimilated into one of the existing power-players. Small factions had no reason to recruit players for TW, because they knew it was hopeless... and this was a cycle that fed upon itself.
If we regularly reset the TW map, these factions and their members would find new motivation to play, to practice, and yes PWE, even to spend money. I know I would love to recruit more casual players to Hikari for TW purposes if we had any hope of fun battles on a semi-regular basis. Aspiring factions could pool their money (and I know you love those coin sinks, PWE) to make the biggest bid on a free lv3 territory and then to fight their neighbors. PVE-based factions, such as my assassin's faction, Nocturne, could make small bids in hopes of just experiencing the PVE aspect of it (Nocturne is a strictly non-PVP faction, but despite that we held Deserted Sea for the opening week). Large, serious factions like Enrage, Radiance, Dominus and GoldDigrz would still find intrigue in TW by racing to capture more lands as the period goes on, fighting and bidding against each other for important TW lands such as Thousand Streams and Raging Tides - thus, they too would still have a goal worthy of their attention. And as the large factions take land from the smaller factions, the smaller factions use the "off time" between resets to train, plan strategies, and recruit new members in order to put their best foot forward when the reset happens.
By my count, this was an amazingly successful twist in Genesis, and PWE... you need to continue it. It's something that you can do without consulting with the Beijing devs, and it won't impact your bottom line to any significant degree (unlike removing packs or lowering the aps cap, which, though I believe still must be done, are less likely). But most importantly, it will bring back an element of this game which I was afraid you had lost: sustainability. Intrigue in TW keeps the replay value of this game fresh for a large number of players.
The PVP system is still grotesquely broken, but this one simple change will go a long way towards making it interesting again in spite of that. My plea to you, PWE: Keep TW fresh. Do semi-regular resets.
Thanks for reading.
Fast forward 1.5 - 2 years, and I'm in my 90s. Back when I joined, I'd have considered that high enough to try TW. But look what I have to contend with. Jones Blessings. Packs and the gear related to them. "Easy" access to +10 gear. Rank 8 becoming a common standard instead of an elite distinction based on helping others. Rank 9 becoming possible, but only accessible to those with far too much time and money. And lest we forget, the scourge of high-aps fist builds. It became clear that any foray I made into TW would end in me being flattened alongside the road, in a manner seemingly designed to punish me for my deliberately less-than-"pro" build.
Where was the intrigue? Where was the spirit of a "good fight" that all HT's top factions love to brag about? It all rings a little hollow when the map is a single color. I know next to nothing about the drama in HT's top factions, but from a third-party perspective, "pay to win" seemed to be the only principle that was ever adhered to in TW.
So imagine my surprise when I hear about the TW map reset coming with Genesis. HT only has maybe half a dozen "big" factions, and even they were predicting that TW would be interesting again for a month or so.
My main's faction, Hikari, has maybe 10-15 TW-capable members, but we knew that the PVE element would be a pushover. So we made a bid on Ancient Wall and got it. Piece of cake. The second week, by whatever miracle, we were not bid on, and our own bid was beat out. So it fell to this past weekend to determine how "real" a TW experience I and my faction would get.
We bid on DimSum, our neighbors to the east, and were bid on ourselves by Progress. We knew little about either opponent at the time - to say our intel was "spotty" would be a huge understatement. All we knew is that DimSum had few members (core reported 22), and that they were also defending against another faction at the same time. On our side, we had one ex-Enrage and one ex-Rad to brief us on the basics, and a handful of other would-be TW aficionados. We figured we might have a ghost of a chance.
Turns out "ghost" was the operative word. We lasted 1.5 hours into the attack, at one point damaging their crystal to roughly half its health. After that point, the tables clearly turned and our leader decided we should leave lest we be kill-farmed at our spawn. So that was that. What was interesting about that TW was how long we held out and what changed. DimSum had three archers (to my recollection), all of which were sporting Lunar bows. They had a mystic who was lv100. And they had an assassin who was clearly as close to 5.0 aps as one can manage with daggers. We had none of these things. So why did it take them so long? From what I could tell, two things changed which made up that difference: (a) they realized we weren't going to just be pushovers, and (b) they brought in a few people from their other fight, which was still going on at the time.
I can't really tell you which of their characters annoyed me the most. Maybe it was all of them. To me, each of them represented a different aspect of PVP (Lunar weaponry, powerleveling, and massive aps, respectively) which had contributed to the loss of balance and intrigue which kept me from TW in the first place.
By the next morning we had learned the truth - they were a faction made up primarily of alts from Enrage and GoldDigrz. The only member of our faction who knew this was absent during the intel discussions.
The next day, we had our own land to defend. We knew little about our attacker, Progress, until 2 hours before the fight, when I happened upon them holding a "practice" meeting in South Arch. Slightly paranoid after the DimSum encounter, I alted to my assassin and observed them from a nearby rooftop while in stealth. I managed to learn that they had about the same numbers as us, and had more rank-8 members than we did, but also had a few more mid-leveled (70s and 80s) members than us. Most encouraging to me was that none of them had high aps builds - a few of them seemed to be designed for modest aps, much like the BMs in my faction.
All of this only served one purpose, for me: intrigue. I had learned a good deal, and yet I still didn't know who would win. That right there was the element that made it fun for me. I fitted myself out for TW like I had the night before - a Jones blessing (hey, it was the one broken element of PVP that at least everyone had equal access to), fresh charms from the event boutique, the latest attack heiros for my weapon, my stack of 34k Dragotenna Arrows, and even a rune (generously donated by a friend in Rad). This time, I brought spark apocs too.
For their part, Progress made a spirited attempt. What we didn't know is that this was their first TW (as told to me by the leader afterwards) and they were lacking in strategy and, potentially, mechanical knowledge of TW. We built towers, we stuck together, but we ended up meeting less resistance than we expected. And yet, for me at least, it was still a challenge to pick out the most threatening targets and try not to die in the process. It was a learning experience. It was fun. Afterwards, chatting with their leader, I felt compelled to invite him to re-bid on us next week. Hell, it would beat being bid on by our neighbors (not that I expect us to even show against some of them, but wth - our secret is out by now).
So what's the point of all this? Well, two reasons. The first, to retell my own experience in TW from the viewpoint of a casual, "non-pro" player who is interested in PVP as a theoretical concept, but sorely disappointed in PVP in its current state. I never seem to hear from people like this.
The other reason is to formally make a request to frankieraye and whatever other GMs and execs are in charge of TW policy. I propose a semi-regular TW map reset. In HT's case, I feel that a period of three to four months between each reset would be appropriate.
Let's face facts: before Genesis, no casual player had a prayer of holding a territory, and even the other serious factions could not topple Enrage. This left virtually no motivation for an aspiring TW fighter to better themselves, be it in gear or skill. And if one managed to emerge, the best they could hope for is to be assimilated into one of the existing power-players. Small factions had no reason to recruit players for TW, because they knew it was hopeless... and this was a cycle that fed upon itself.
If we regularly reset the TW map, these factions and their members would find new motivation to play, to practice, and yes PWE, even to spend money. I know I would love to recruit more casual players to Hikari for TW purposes if we had any hope of fun battles on a semi-regular basis. Aspiring factions could pool their money (and I know you love those coin sinks, PWE) to make the biggest bid on a free lv3 territory and then to fight their neighbors. PVE-based factions, such as my assassin's faction, Nocturne, could make small bids in hopes of just experiencing the PVE aspect of it (Nocturne is a strictly non-PVP faction, but despite that we held Deserted Sea for the opening week). Large, serious factions like Enrage, Radiance, Dominus and GoldDigrz would still find intrigue in TW by racing to capture more lands as the period goes on, fighting and bidding against each other for important TW lands such as Thousand Streams and Raging Tides - thus, they too would still have a goal worthy of their attention. And as the large factions take land from the smaller factions, the smaller factions use the "off time" between resets to train, plan strategies, and recruit new members in order to put their best foot forward when the reset happens.
By my count, this was an amazingly successful twist in Genesis, and PWE... you need to continue it. It's something that you can do without consulting with the Beijing devs, and it won't impact your bottom line to any significant degree (unlike removing packs or lowering the aps cap, which, though I believe still must be done, are less likely). But most importantly, it will bring back an element of this game which I was afraid you had lost: sustainability. Intrigue in TW keeps the replay value of this game fresh for a large number of players.
The PVP system is still grotesquely broken, but this one simple change will go a long way towards making it interesting again in spite of that. My plea to you, PWE: Keep TW fresh. Do semi-regular resets.
Thanks for reading.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
Post edited by Miugre - Heavens Tear on
0
Comments
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+1000
Bravo, well said. b:victory
Leader - Hikari LVL3 PVE Faction {Heavens Tear}
Hikari is the Light.
RESPECT is part of the Light so when you show others respect you show them the light.
TRUTH is part of the Light, so if you find deception put light on it for all to see.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Thank you for the run down. I agree with you a twice a year reset would go a long way to improving the game play of PWI. Even as a member of one of those so called serious factions I dream of the old days of TW when a group of strategy, numbers, and teamwork meant far more than best gear. Those several hour back and forth fights where you never know who will win because one good push could do it are what most TW junkies dream of. The reward for holding land don't go as far as they used to so might as well keep refreshing it regularly and I bet PWI will make more money because everyone will taste the thrill of TW and want to get stronger because that little bit could what your small casual faction needs to win.
Or even a level capped TW map for the under 90s.
There is nothing like the rush before a good TW and holding on trying to win. I remember back in the early days younger members of our faction falling asleep under the crystal in a three hour defense. Reclaiming those good old days is what keeps me playing.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Interesting Read and I'm glad you enjoyed the TW
I do agree the " lower " level's TW's are normally the more interesting to compete in .. You cannot just blast past the opposition because of your gear .. You need to think and plan[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Baring regular resets, anyone else remember when the big factions set aside a few lands for the smaller factions to basically play with. I know this means serious TW factions being more carebear but as Con stated the low level TW fights are just so much fun.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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I don't recall this period, and I joined in October 2008. Was it before my time, or did I just not notice it? :PMorkFromOrk - Heavens Tear wrote: »Baring regular resets, anyone else remember when the big factions set aside a few lands for the smaller factions to basically play with. I know this means serious TW factions being more carebear but as Con stated the low level TW fights are just so much fun.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
Great post +1
I love my TW with the smaller factions. I love the strategies. I love how even the playing field can be. I love helping people when it's their 1st time. I just love it b:chuckle
It's been about year since I TW'd with Rad, but I must say I don't miss anything about going against the other big shots, and not be pressured for charms, gear and apoth every single week. When you take 14k crits from people on par with EvilAngel, it gets tiresome. (He done 21k on me, highest I ever took, it stained in my memory >.< )
I agree a quarterly reset would be great. Keeps things spicy b:cute0 -
at first looked like TL;DR but as im at workin semi bored...I gave it a go...good read, interesting points...
I rememeber very well the good old days of long wars, where things change quickly..
maybe a bi-yearly reset would be kinda fun...but still...think it should be whenever a factionn ownes the map for 1 month, then reset it....other than that...whats the point of busting hump for 6 months to gain (maybe 75%) of the land, just to have it yanked b4 the ultimate goal is acheived.
interesting read...and TW on low lvls is a great deal of fun b:cute[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." ~ Thomas Jefferson0 -
ya know...PWI is closely mirrored to RL...
war evoles with time and equipment...same as in PW
if you dun beleive...how long has it been since a war was fought with rocks and sticks and "magics"
as fun as TW on my lowbie is....
something about being hit for 17k..which to the best of my recolection is the highest i have been hit for in TW...is motivation for me, it drives me to want to be better.
thats not to say that its for everyone...but for me...its the fuel that lights my fire.
I do understand that things are considerably different for cata barbs vs. an archer in terms of expenses such as charm and repairs.
I kinda thought this was goin to be a huge QQ rant, but you suprised me by your comments mug...and i applaud ya for that!
Id say honestly dun give up...even Enrage, for as badass as they are and were in the passed...nothing happened for them overnight...they still had to break their *** to get to where they got to.
wana have tons-0-fun....get back into PK...save up money for scrolls, or use security lock or whatever....the days of 100 + people showing up for a PK fest are LONGGGGGGGGGGGGG overdue!!b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." ~ Thomas Jefferson0 -
I would have to agree that this map reset was more fun than I expected, mainly for me =P
As for the DimSum TW against you guys, we were toying with you to say the least. We barely built towers, and barely pulled catapults. Tried pulling cats in the beginning, and got something done but after about 20 minutes I think, no more catas were being pulled for the most part. Kill farming is so much more fun b:chuckle Notice how near the end we had 1 person pull a cat to take down a tower - HQ quickly. Yea, I'm sure we could have ended it within 20 minutes if we really wanted to. No reinforcements were sent from the other TW as a certain someone was soloing it b:chuckle0 -
Pteh. >_> So what's the moral of this story? It's fun to blow other peoples' charms to increase a number on your core page? How typically Enrage-like... dress up a slaughter as a "gf" (and yes, I know who you are).Ketania - Heavens Tear wrote: »I would have to agree that this map reset was more fun than I expected, mainly for me =P
As for the DimSum TW against you guys, we were toying with you to say the least. We barely built towers, and barely pulled catapults. Tried pulling cats in the beginning, and got something done but after about 20 minutes I think, no more catas were being pulled for the most part. Kill farming is so much more fun b:chuckle Notice how near the end we had 1 person pull a cat to take down a tower - HQ quickly. Yea, I'm sure we could have ended it within 20 minutes if we really wanted to. No reinforcements were sent from the other TW as a certain someone was soloing it b:chuckle
I'm not even going to sugar-coat it; actions like yours are a huge part of the problem. Then there was your psuedo-5.0 sin (and I know who he is, too) who would feign tantrums in common chat every time we killed him. Then he said we "owed [him] a charm" as we were leaving. Yes buddy, you're a troll, you're a special little snowflake. We know. You can stop measuring your e-peen now.
All that being said, your antics failed to prevent the rest of us from having fun overall this weekend. And that's the beauty of my proposal in the OP. Nobody's going to care if you can steamroll them if you lose all your gains in 3 months. Personally, I'm hoping for the day when no one shows up to your trollfests in the guise of legitimate attacks. Until then, I'll be waiting for the charms you "toyed" away from me in my mailbox. Thanks. ;][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
Very nice post, wish I came up with it myself, seeing how I tend to talk about this with my closest friends in game.
Hopefully this thread actually continues with logical points and perspective. After all, this is the stuff I like, not the gears, the game, the people, but the perspective and logic we share.
My favorite moments in TW were when I was in TE fighting Tao. I think most ppl who were involved in that agreed it was just pure legit fun.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:flowerHave a Techno Rave Flower!b:flower
-Self-Proclaimed TW commentator of HT-
-Certified Barbarian Master-
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-Master of Coffee-0 -
I like some of the points you make Miu, but I dislike the idea of frequent map resets. Part of the joy of TW is watching the rise and fall, the long term. Strategic bidding to take areas that matter both positionally, and politically. With so many map resets, it would remove a lot of the enjoyment of TW.
Yeah, you would have more fun in frequent lower level TW's, but it would remove a lot of the hardcore competitive edge from TW. I understand that that is exactly what appeals to players like yourself, but for players like me, it does not.
I agree entirely that there needs to be more oppurtunity for lower levelled and geared players to experience frequent PvP, as at the moment it is quite inaccessible to those who are not at the top. I hope that the guild base wars (and possibly other updates) go some way to fixing that problem in the long term.I love drinking tea0 -
Casual gamers are beaten by more devoted ones.
Pretty simple. Asking for a bi-weekly map reset is ridiculous. It wouldn't happen in the real world, it shouldn't happen here. Imagine asking for a reset on corporate sales just because one company holds 90% of the market.
The best players/teams actually treat this like their job. They have excel charts, attendance logs, squad formations, meetings, ventrilo/teamspeak rooms (cost), websites, feedback and usually help with gear (which is somewhat like realworld welfare). If you compare the time they put in and the time you put in, its obvious why you lost.
You're basically asking for charity. It doesnt even come down to them being better geared than you. It comes down to the fact they put in more hours than you.
You should just not territory war.0 -
while i agree with you mostly Known...
but a 3 hour war (which has happened a few times before duh) against Enrage is a boatload more fun than a 30-45 min war on my lowbie alt...
anyone who has had a legit 3 hour war knows this.
dun get me wrong, i in no way would want to discount the experience anyone had in a legit battle...sorry kill farming isnt legit...b:surrender
but just one archers opinion and perspective[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." ~ Thomas Jefferson0 -
HA! No, we didn't want to ruin your fun. We didn't care for it. We gave ourselves fun, that's it that's all. DimSum is not Enrage style more than likely. Just the fact that we laid back on our cats to have more fun is the only point that should have been taken from that.
You actually think that sin was crying? Learn to realize when someone is joking, and him asking for a charm was more than clearly a joke. I don't even know why I need to try and justify your stupidity.
You want to bring nastiness into this? Okay then I'll be honest with ya: You are a terrible TW archer and you should immediately retire from the TW scene as you were completely useless to my 1 shots along with other DimSum members.
Happy?
Edit: *pat pat*0 -
lol your a ***** b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." ~ Thomas Jefferson0 -
Bale you're a meanieface!
And whoa whoa I think I missed something..Miu..you think I was trying to cover up the fact that I was Evanera or something?
Ah I missed this as well: After your faction beat that faction lastnight (forget the name) most of you WC'ed saying *good fight* and the sort. However, after DimSum demolished your faction into tiny particles and disemboweled your spirits out of TW, I don't think I saw any WC's saying *good fight*
^Clearly shows how butt hurt you and your faction was after the terrible defeat at the hands of Enrage alts.0 -
Ketania - Heavens Tear wrote: »HA! No, we didn't want to ruin your fun. We didn't care for it. We gave ourselves fun, that's it that's all. DimSum is not Enrage style more than likely. Just the fact that we laid back on our cats to have more fun is the only point that should have been taken from that.
You actually think that sin was crying? Learn to realize when someone is joking, and him asking for a charm was more than clearly a joke. I don't even know why I need to try and justify your stupidity.
You want to bring nastiness into this? Okay then I'll be honest with ya: You are a terrible TW archer and you should immediately retire from the TW scene as you were completely useless to my 1 shots along with other DimSum members.
Happy?
Edit: *pat pat*
Why does it matter what kind of player you are in TW as long as you are having fun?
In my opinion it's really the act of having fun against each other, despite experience levels in pk and gear and good sportsmanship. There just seems to be a general trend in the "top factions" of this server that just like to pick on other people for a powertrip and lack the sportmanship (please note that was a general observation and I know plenty of "top players" who aren't that way).
Why can't people in other factions just play to have fun and not be harassed by others who think they are god in this game? It's quite amusing to find that there are people in this game so obsessed over "end game gear" when in reality there is no "end game" and there never will be. Stop fighting and just play to have a good time, it's just a game folks.
I would like to see what would happen if the map had reset over every few months, weeks maybe not, but months would be kind of cool.
b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Member of Nocturne and Hikari...spread the light be nice to others!
"I conform to non-conformity." Join date: November 2008
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Your tactics would be more effective had I not become completely aware and bored of them at least ten years ago. "I rule, you suck, lrn2ply" jumped the shark a long time ago.Ketania - Heavens Tear wrote: »HA! No, we didn't want to ruin your fun. We didn't care for it. We gave ourselves fun, that's it that's all. DimSum is not Enrage style more than likely. Just the fact that we laid back on our cats to have more fun is the only point that should have been taken from that.
You actually think that sin was crying? Learn to realize when someone is joking, and him asking for a charm was more than clearly a joke. I don't even know why I need to try and justify your stupidity.
You want to bring nastiness into this? Okay then I'll be honest with ya: You are a terrible TW archer and you should immediately retire from the TW scene as you were completely useless to my 1 shots along with other DimSum members.
Happy?
Edit: *pat pat*
You actually think I didn't know the sin was trolling? Re-read my last post. Why would I have said he feigned tantrums if I thought they were serious? -_-
Calling me a terrible, fail, useless etc. PVP archer is pretty much #1 on the list of things I've heard before. I am more than immune to it. But what I find the funniest is that you use that line against me as if I cared... as if your judgment of my apparent failure is so absolute that I'd have no other recourse than to say "oh well, I guess that's it, my entire opinion is wrong because you said so." Not only is that laughable, but it also speaks volumes about how little you actually understand, much less care about my thread and my points.
But I wasn't expecting you to care, so why you posted in this thread other than to inform me of the actual logistics DimSum was working off of is a mystery to me. I do not require reminders that there are, in fact, quite a few selfish people who think the extent of a smaller faction's experience in TW should be as fodder for your kill count.
@Anyone who brought up points relating to "politics" and "markets," etc.: Your argument of RL comparisons falls flat when we consider that you're trying to use them in a game. If these ideals are so fascinating to you, why are you not working to promote them in the real world instead of a virtual one? Note also the tendency for these lines to be spoken only by those who are already at or near the top.
EDIT:
The kill farming kind of killed any chance of that, frankly (the powerleveling and psuedo-5.0s didn't help either). Butthurt? Not really. But I'm not required to humor your flimsy definition of a good fight.Ah I missed this as well: After your faction beat that faction lastnight (forget the name) most of you WC'ed saying *good fight* and the sort. However, after DimSum demolished your faction into tiny particles and disemboweled your spirits out of TW, I don't think I saw any WC's saying *good fight*
^Clearly shows how butt hurt you and your faction was after the terrible defeat at the hands of Enrage alts.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
More often than not, people will not have fun if they are just constantly getting 1 shot, and not killing anyone. Most of the time, people will have more fun if they have the gear to survive and kill people.
To your second statement - why do professional sports players train day in and day out, even though they might have fun if they suck?0 -
Because they want to win?0
-
Sukinee - Heavens Tear wrote: »There just seems to be a general trend in the "top factions" of this server that just like to pick on other people for a powertrip and lack the sportmanship (please note that was a general observation and I know plenty of "top players" who aren't that way).
In factions that have close to 200 members each, there are always going to be those types of people. They are also the ones that you are going to notice more, clearly, because they are mouthing off. Enrage is the one that most people like to pick on, but even there if you look at who is actually doing the talking there are maybe 9-10 players who show poor sportsmanship, your general observation just isn't true at all.I love drinking tea0 -
For the exact reason I mentioned in the OP: intrigue. A sports player trains because he wants to challenge the top dogs and throw some doubt into the equation. There was no intrigue in the DimSum TW except that which you tried to manufacture by holding back.Ketania - Heavens Tear wrote: »To your second statement - why do professional sports players train day in and day out, even though they might have fun if they suck?
9-10 is an extremely generous estimate for a faction of ~200. And even if there were only 9-10, other peoples' handling of them speaks volumes. People who embody or practice greed, selfishness and bad sportsmanship should naturally be ostracized and removed from the community. When faction officers fail to deal with such people, it reflects badly on the faction. Or worse, when they are the officers (*cough*), it reflects badly on those who choose to remain in the faction under such leadership. In short: actions speak far louder than words in this case.Saeidon - Heavens Tear wrote: »In factions that have close to 200 members each, there are always going to be those types of people. They are also the ones that you are going to notice more, clearly, because they are mouthing off. Enrage is the one that most people like to pick on, but even there if you look at who is actually doing the talking there are maybe 9-10 players who show poor sportsmanship, your general observation just isn't true at all.
EDIT: In case there are people in this thread who absolutely cannot read between the lines and require "disclaimers for the subtext impaired": yes, of course I know friendly people in most big factions, even Enrage and GoldDigrz.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
See... You didnt respond to me because my reasoning is incontrovertible unlike noob troll mystic.
Miugre, you are a cry baby noob. Eat it.0 -
You would first need to have a post containing anything resembling "reasoning," methinks. ;]Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »See... You didnt respond to me because my reasoning is incontrovertible unlike noob troll mystic.
Miugre, you are a cry baby noob. Eat it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »See... You didnt respond to me because my reasoning is incontrovertible unlike noob troll mystic.
Miugre, you are a cry baby noob. Eat it.
Why do people spend so much time trying to be "pro" at a video game, like it's their job? Don't people have other things to do with their lives that might be more productive than a video game? o.O[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Member of Nocturne and Hikari...spread the light be nice to others!
"I conform to non-conformity." Join date: November 20080 -
Uhhhh, human nature transcends video games and real life. Any situation that resembles a real life situation will most likely elicit the same solutions.
Like I said, you suck. You are asking for charity. You should at least get on your knees.0 -
There is a big difference between embracing poor sportsmanship and not getting so upset about it that you quit a faction and/or kick people for it.
Statements like this and those made by Sukinee suggest that most people in the larger factions show poor sportmanship and are unfriendly. That somehow being in one of these larger factions AND being a decent human being, while possible, is unlikely and surprising. Just nonsense.yes, of course I know friendly people in most big factions, even Enrage and GoldDigrzI love drinking tea0 -
Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »Uhhhh, human nature transcends video games and real life. Any situation that resembles a real life situation will most likely elicit the same solutions.
Like I said, you suck. You are asking for charity. You should at least get on your knees.
Umm sorry I still don't get it.
Call me crazy but I thought that real life should be first and foremost when it comes to doing things that are fun. So basically are you saying that real life should be on the back burner because the game is srs like real life....that just doesn't make sense. When people play video games they perceive it as real life and focus on non existant goals because a company is still drawing you into the game. Have people forgotten that this is a business? It's just a game for crying out loud. To be honest if I had to choose between going to a party with some friends and playing a game for several hours straight, I would go with my friends any time. I hope I NEVER treat this game like it's my job, I think it's then a good time for me to quit.
By the way, I have done a lot of personal research, looking through databases and reading actual articles on MMO addiction, and the "human nature transcending video games and real life", so yes I do know the psychology behind it. If I can link those articles I would but sadly I can't because of copyright stuffs -_-
So...where be teh logic in all this? In the end all you have given was an insult I would hear from someone in middle school.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Member of Nocturne and Hikari...spread the light be nice to others!
"I conform to non-conformity." Join date: November 20080 -
And how is wishing for the opportunity to fight factions other than Enrage "charity?" As if you're the authority able to give it? Frankly, Enrage isn't even a factor in this, except as the somewhat-annoying obstacle presenting itself as "that faction who takes the entire sandbox so that nobody else can play in it." And unlike RL, one can't march right back into the sandbox and show the other guy what-for without spending a grotesque amount of time/money in the effort.Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »Uhhhh, human nature transcends video games and real life. Any situation that resembles a real life situation will most likely elicit the same solutions.
Like I said, you suck. You are asking for charity. You should at least get on your knees.
So no, I remain unimpressed at their ability to exploit a flaw in the system. I'd rather change the system than expect them to magically do it themselves.
Granted, but it's not like this was a solitary incident. Examples of reprehensible behavior in Enrage, GoldDigrz, and even Rad now are far from the point of "oh well, everyone makes mistakes." Not to say that everyone else in the fac explicitly condones such behavior, but there's a point where you no longer have an excuse to turn the other cheek.Saeidon - Heavens Tear wrote: »There is a big difference between embracing poor sportsmanship and not getting so upset about it that you quit a faction and/or kick people for it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0
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