HT: A case study in what TW was meant to be

madpoofter

I'd love to try TW for myself to find out what its all about but after reading your post Im having second thoughts about it

Duckingtiger - Heavens Tear

I can understand your want for the reset.How ever that isn't really fair to the larger factions to constantly lose the lands they fight for after 2 or 3 months.I'm all for it if the map gets owned again cause then no on is having fun,not even the land holder.Some may argue that point but i do have friends in enrage that were getting bored of the same tw week in and week out.I think they came out with the guild bases just for the reason you seek to reset the map on a regular basis. At least the smaller guilds have a chance in fighting each other and it is less strain trying to field 40 people then 80.

MorkFromOrk - Heavens Tear

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think you fail to recognize what an MMORPG is. An MMORPG's is a special type of video game genre. They are characterized by the ability to meet, talk and interact with other individuals within their virtual realms. Because MMORPGS are basically virtual communities, economics, politics, reputation, fame, infamy are key components to the experience. They are, in essence, an emulation of the real world. As an emulation of the real world, it makes sense that logic that guides the real world pervades into the virtual one. Therefore any comparison between real world situations and in-game situations that resemble them are more than valid.

Players spend time and money in order to be better than their contemporaries. By removing incentives and other things that help distinguish excellent players, you encroach upon the key components of MMORPG culture. Changing the system doesn't make the game more fair. It makes the game both less fair and less enduring. Depriving players of what they have earned, doesn't sound very fair to me. You have a unmerited sense of entitlement.

You can treat this game however you see fit. You can play on your free time. You can play all day well into the night. People will succeed at whatever they prioritize. Those that choose their occupation over their social lives will further their careers. By the same token, those that choose to invest in ther characters will surpass those that don't. Those that devote themselves will fare better than those that don't in every industry.

Like I said, you are asking for charity. You have failed to accomplish anything that would give your opinion any authority and are asking for axiomatical changes. It would be nothing less than philanthropy to even consider your proposal.




The only plausible solution I can conceive would be to adapt the arena to accomodate faction vs. faction instances. But that will obviously be less prestigious and pale in comparison to Territorial War. I think you should consider ways to experience pvp without entrenching upon one of the major tenets of the game.

Eat it *****

Every sport has seasons. TW doesn't have to be thought of as war but a game. A six month TW season would be enough to see who is the top guild. Then you reset and see who can claim the honors next time. That seems like real life to me. Even crappy teams like the Detroit Lions get to come out fresh every season with some hope that this could be their time.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Duckingtiger - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I can understand your want for the reset.How ever that isn't really fair to the larger factions to constantly lose the lands they fight for after 2 or 3 months.I'm all for it if the map gets owned again cause then no on is having fun,not even the land holder.Some may argue that point but i do have friends in enrage that were getting bored of the same tw week in and week out.I think they came out with the guild bases just for the reason you seek to reset the map on a regular basis. At least the smaller guilds have a chance in fighting each other and it is less strain trying to field 40 people then 80.

They would have been an excellent solution if it weren't for the cost (which is far beyond the capabilities of most small factions) and the idea of losing the bases entirely. Had they been cheap or free to build, and were the base wars designed purely for TW-style fun and not resource acquisition, this could have been a hugely successful feature and would definitely bring some relief to the stagnancy of TW, as you describe. Unfortunately, they were not made that way - just the latest in a string of failures by PWE. -_-

If 3-4 months is too often for you, 6 then. I'm sure we can reach some manner of compromise. :P But you have to admit that it's human nature for the big faction(s) to completely own the map eventually, and I think 3-4 months is more than enough for significant progress to be made. There are 51 territories, so it would take a faction a full year to take them all. But if we had a 6-month reset, the map would settle down into a few big guns fighting it out over the "important" lands. For instance, if a faction wished to own both 1k and Raging Tides, they could do so in 9 weeks (I'm assuming that Courage Path technically borders King's Feast in this scenario - if that's not the case, 10 weeks).

I can understand the appeal of "is Faction A going to attack B or C, how are they going to survive if B and C gang up on them," and such. Don't get me wrong, large-scale TW intrigue does exist and it was the case for quite a while on HT. In the end, though, it appeared that basic human nature won out. And unlike Conquerer on LC, Enrage didn't have the stones to break up in order to put the intrigue back into it.

EDIT:

MorkFromOrk wrote:

Every sport has seasons. TW doesn't have to be thought of as war but a game. A six month TW season would be enough to see who is the top guild. Then you reset and see who can claim the honors next time. That seems like real life to me. Even crappy teams like the Detroit Lions get to come out fresh every season with some hope that this could be their time.

I was considering making this exact point earlier. And in addition to this, sports teams often have their members swapped around seasonally based on where the "power" lies. Why? Intrigue. :P

EDIT 2:

madpoofter wrote:

I'd love to try TW for myself to find out what its all about but after reading your post Im having second thoughts about it

I was hoping to actually give people some hope for TW. :-/ If the map resets again, have your faction make a bid on an unoccupied land. If nothing else, the PVE aspect of TW is something you should experience at least once, just to say you did (and don't worry, it's easy even for most small factions).

Saeidon - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

it's not about finding an "easy route," because we seek no "route" to anything at all

It seems to me that your whole post was about you trying to find an easy route to regular TW....

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

They would have been an excellent solution if it weren't for the cost (which is far beyond the capabilities of most small factions)

Honestly, if your faction can't be bothered to put the effort in to acquire a guild base for some pvp, then you have absolutely no right to make any complaints, or even statements concerning group PVP setups. It is simply not that hard to get a guild base, even for smaller factions.

If you have 50 members, whats that, 6-7million each? Yeah its not nothing, but you seem to want everything free. I know I personally put about 10 hours of farming in to help golddigrz faction base fund and others did even more than that, if all the members of a 50 person faction did that, you would have a guild base, even if you can't do superfast runs. If you don't care enough about that aspect of the game to even do that, then GTFO thinking that the world should be changed for your lazy ***.

Momento - Heavens Tear

Noobs dont deserve rights

Saeidon - Heavens Tear

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Noobs dont deserve rights

Haha, you posted this while I was editing my post to add the second part, perfect!

Should add the word "lazy" on the front though

MsEvilness - Heavens Tear

Saeidon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I know I personally put about 10 hours of farming in to help golddigrz faction base fund and others did even more than that

I thought gti would just fund it all himself...

Also, you do not know how base wars will work... perhaps it could be rather easy for small guilds to lose their guild base in wars. And because there is a lack of information about the 40v40 wars, even from PW-CN, it's justified that many smaller guilds do not want to invest the money into something that might not be at all worthwhile.

As for TW... it will never be as good as it used to be because pwi has become such a pay to win game.

MorkFromOrk - Heavens Tear

MsEvilness - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also, you do not know how base wars will work... perhaps it could be rather easy for small guilds to lose their guild base in wars. And because there is a lack of information about the 40v40 wars, even from PW-CN, it's justified that many smaller guilds do not want to invest the money into something that might not be at all worthwhile.

As for TW... it will never be as good as it used to be because pwi has become such a pay to win game.

Wow... hell just froze over. I agree with MsEvilness

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Sukinee - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why do people spend so much time trying to be "pro" at a video game, like it's their job? Don't people have other things to do with their lives that might be more productive than a video game? o.O

Well... you see... whats the point of doing something if you are not going to strive to be the best? I don't know about you... but I don't play anything (pwi or real life sports) so I can get my *** kicked. If I am doing something... I better make sure I am at least competitive or else there is really no point of doing it at all.

Saeidon - Heavens Tear

I agree that investing in a guild base right now would be stupid for a lot of smaller factions, at least until the PVP aspect is working and a lot more is known about it all.

My point was not that they should buy one now, but that if it does prove to be a viable method of group pvp for the smaller guilds, then the excuse "but it costs too much for us" is just pathetic.

Oh, I'm sure GTI would have paid for it all had we needed him to btw, he's a great guy like that. We're more than capable of farming up the coin as a faction though, such a friendly and helpful faction. Maybe some of the smaller factions need to stop being so greedy and actually work together? b:pleased

Taleon - Heavens Tear

First off, you would have to bring this to PW attention, not PWI, they are just going to follow what is being done in front of them.

Secondly, you are asking for charity in simple terms.
You want to be able to take part or have TW easy access handed to you, because you do not want to go out and work for it ?

Enrage is looked apon as such an evil faction. After the reset how many TW's took place ? How many wars in each time slot took place ?
Enrage is a faction of a max of 200 members. HT had many people trying to get all the factions to bid on them in one weekend many times. Why ? Because Enrage in no way could defend all of them. They would have had to no show at least half of the fights to be able to defend any at all. Where was all these factions then ? Yet, the server still wants to cry we want resets more often so we can have TW the easy way ? AKa, easy TW where we do not need to fight or learn to fight.

If normal resets where to take place, the major TW factions would all hold a cornor of the map thru each reset. Maybe a few would get into fights here and there, but nothing of any major conflict.
More alt factions doing face rolls like you started this thread about would happen all the time. Because we would have nothing better to do.

So by all means, please QQ more about it. PWI themselves will not do anything about it, till it is done thru the mother company. Instead of crying about it, why not try to work on strats, gear, squad make ups, sign ups, like so many TW factions before you have done, and why they become successful. They work at it, they do not give up on it, and they keep trying. They do not go QQing to the company saying, "Please, Please, can you give us easy mode every few months again, I am too lazy to try and do it myself"

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I was hoping to actually give people some hope for TW. :-/ If the map resets again, have your faction make a bid on an unoccupied land. If nothing else, the PVE aspect of TW is something you should experience at least once, just to say you did (and don't worry, it's easy even for most small factions).

Let me ask you this... who or what gives you the right to take what you call "fun" away from one group of people and give it to another? Attack on level 3 land might be fun for other... but its in no way fun for me and people with similar gear. We could easily solo a level three land without much effort. My archer has yet attended a single tw since reset... why... because reset took away my fun so there is nothing left for me except to retire. So essentially... your fun is at my expense. If I can walk away cause something is no longer fun for me. Why can't you walk away from tw if its not fun for you.

And finally... you say that you are not competitive cause you don't spend real cash. Well... when is the last time you wake up at 1am on tue, 2am on wed, 3am on thurs, 4am on fri, 5am on sat, 6am on sun, and 7am on mon to kill world bosses for perf shard drops. That was the schedule for me and countless others for weeks and even months so we can stay competitive. So when it comes down to it all, I am pretty sure I (along with others) deserve to be MORE competitive then the run of the mill player.

Exegesis - Heavens Tear

TW reset shouldnt be every 4 months, that would make it boring... Maybe TW reset when 1 dominating faction seems to not lose like Enrage managed..

Enrage is bad - they will ruin the gameplay and make you ragequit.. They are also the root to all evil and can cause cancer.

TW is competetive, its what makes this game different from super mario and other games, its a way for those that cash shop and make their gear insane etc to use it somehow..
The game was more balanced and fun before all the insane gear where the rich will get better and the poor get worse, so for a lot of people TW isnt as fun as it used to be..

Lets enjoy the TWs and lets see if Enrage will take it all back or if the other "big" TW factions will get enough training, teamwork and coordination to give them a hard time taking it over. Time will show..

Use less money on teleacoustics to world chat your epic failness or QQing and put that into your gear and maybe one day you can be a decent TWer.

Remember kids that Enrage mobs are bad b:chuckle

Taleon - Heavens Tear

Exegesis - Heavens Tear wrote: »

TW reset shouldnt be every 4 months, that would make it boring... Maybe TW reset when 1 dominating faction seems to not lose like Enrage managed..

Enrage is bad - they will ruin the gameplay and make you ragequit.. They are also the root to all evil and can cause cancer.

Lets enjoy the TWs and lets see if Enrage will take it all back or if the other "big" TW factions will get enough training, teamwork and coordination to give them a hard time taking it over. Time will show..

Use less money on teleacoustics to world chat your epic failness or QQing and put that into your gear and maybe one day you can be a decent TWer.

Remember kids that Enrage mobs are bad b:chuckle

Awwww Exe.....
where is the love man ???

Retsuko - Heavens Tear

TW map reset every 2 weeks would be fun. PvE fight4ever. b:victory

DEATHJOKER - Heavens Tear

oh wow long *** thread

well Hikari guy this game is not for the weak i agree everyone should have a chance to tw this game lack the lvl limit for stuff like a battle ground that u can go and pvp in it reward will be exp for like lets say 80-89 that should fill ur time i guess tw meant to be for the strong to clash and slash and pew pew. a TW need organization and lots of stuff more

but again u will say how can i get experience to tw if im twing against strong people well no answer for that unless pwi do some kinda 10 v 10 or squad v squad thingy thats like daily thing

but i dont think its fair when a guild tw for a year+ and hold all lands or most of the lands and then poof it reset whats fun in that

as a part of Enrage i tw almost since enrage started and worked for almost all lands so i would be a bit upset when another map reset come again i didnt mind this one so u people stop QQing and build ur self again

and dude u have an EX Enrage member Maldoric he was a tw cleric so u better get info from him and he know how hard to build a tw faction he tw alot so again STOP QQQQQQQING!!!!!! and dont wait for charity and get ur *** and work hard for it cuz we work hard and if 1 cash shop it doesnt mean all are and it doesnt all depend on gear ITS DAMN STRATEGY
say Hi to mal for me :P

Anneliesse - Heavens Tear

Taleon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So by all means, please QQ more about it. PWI themselves will not do anything about it, till it is done thru the mother company. Instead of crying about it, why not try to work on strats, gear, squad make ups, sign ups, like so many TW factions before you have done, and why they become successful. They work at it, they do not give up on it, and they keep trying. They do not go QQing to the company saying, "Please, Please, can you give us easy mode every few months again, I am too lazy to try and do it myself"

but havent we learned from the current game play that people prefer to QQ and have everything handed to them? just watch WC at any given moment you will easily see examples of how people would prefer to have things easily handed to them (powerlvling services, anyone?), and how much people love to say that the bigger, stronger factions only win because they cash shop and all have amazing gear (gosh, please dont gear check me! i'm an embarassment to this statement).

people have forgotten about how to work towards a goal together, as a team. They would rather blame others for their status in the system rather than ban together and work hard to succeed (art imitates life).

just my 2 cents...but what do i know, right?

Miugre - Heavens Tear

MsEvilness - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I thought gti would just fund it all himself...

Also, you do not know how base wars will work... perhaps it could be rather easy for small guilds to lose their guild base in wars. And because there is a lack of information about the 40v40 wars, even from PW-CN, it's justified that many smaller guilds do not want to invest the money into something that might not be at all worthwhile.

This is actually the bigger reason against the guild bases, true. For the record (and to serve as my reply to Saeidon also), Hikari would certainly be in the position to acquire a guild base already were it not for this fact. We are primarily holding off on it until we can be assured of its safety (otherwise it's not worth that cash). So my issue with the price to create one is more a general comment and less about Hikari.

Kiyoshi wrote:

Let me ask you this... who or what gives you the right to take what you call "fun" away from one group of people and give it to another? Attack on level 3 land might be fun for other... but its in no way fun for me and people with similar gear. We could easily solo a level three land without much effort. My archer has yet attended a single tw since reset... why... because reset took away my fun so there is nothing left for me except to retire. So essentially... your fun is at my expense. If I can walk away cause something is no longer fun for me. Why can't you walk away from tw if its not fun for you.

What exactly do you think I did for 2 years? Before Genesis, I'd given up on TW being fun a long time ago. Then the reset comes and actually makes it interesting again. Meanwhile here you are trolling the forums with your ragequit date proudly displayed in your sig, and you're QQing because it's finally my turn to have some fun instead of yours?

People are gonna have fun with what they choose to, but that doesn't preclude flexibility. It's unfortunate for you that your only way to have fun is, apparently, to pretend to be God's Gift To MMOs. Given the earlier responses in this thread alone, it's clear that even other people in HT's top factions can be less rigid than you.

Refer to my rule-of-thumb a couple pages back. Nothing is sacred. Adapt, ignore, or quit.

Kiyoshi wrote:

And finally... you say that you are not competitive cause you don't spend real cash. Well... when is the last time you wake up at 1am on tue, 2am on wed, 3am on thurs, 4am on fri, 5am on sat, 6am on sun, and 7am on mon to kill world bosses for perf shard drops. That was the schedule for me and countless others for weeks and even months so we can stay competitive. So when it comes down to it all, I am pretty sure I (along with others) deserve to be MORE competitive then the run of the mill player.

Refer to my above comment on being God's Gift to MMOs. What exactly was the point of this paragraph? Am I supposed to be impressed that you woke up at all hours of the night? Well way to go, you're competitive. You still don't deserve the entire map 24/7.





I will refrain from replying to some of you from this last page or so, whose comments basically boil down to the generic "QQ moar" trolling we've had practically since packs first came out. Seriously, people, get some new arguments. I don't care if you're competitive or not. Measure your e-peens somewhere else. (Dishonorable mention to Exegesis... seriously man, if you're gonna troll, make it less obvious at least)

MorkFromOrk - Heavens Tear

Uu

Taleon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

First off, you would have to bring this to PW attention, not PWI, they are just going to follow what is being done in front of them.

Secondly, you are asking for charity in simple terms.
You want to be able to take part or have TW easy access handed to you, because you do not want to go out and work for it ?

Enrage is looked apon as such an evil faction. After the reset how many TW's took place ? How many wars in each time slot took place ?
Enrage is a faction of a max of 200 members. HT had many people trying to get all the factions to bid on them in one weekend many times. Why ? Because Enrage in no way could defend all of them. They would have had to no show at least half of the fights to be able to defend any at all. Where was all these factions then ? Yet, the server still wants to cry we want resets more often so we can have TW the easy way ? AKa, easy TW where we do not need to fight or learn to fight.

If normal resets where to take place, the major TW factions would all hold a cornor of the map thru each reset. Maybe a few would get into fights here and there, but nothing of any major conflict.
More alt factions doing face rolls like you started this thread about would happen all the time. Because we would have nothing better to do.

So by all means, please QQ more about it. PWI themselves will not do anything about it, till it is done thru the mother company. Instead of crying about it, why not try to work on strats, gear, squad make ups, sign ups, like so many TW factions before you have done, and why they become successful. They work at it, they do not give up on it, and they keep trying. They do not go QQing to the company saying, "Please, Please, can you give us easy mode every few months again, I am too lazy to try and do it myself"

Oh Enrage is not evil. There are several people that get off on being jerks and it seems is generally deemed okay by the faction by laws but that is part of the game.

Tal,
If there were more battles per time slot or you could bid on a timeslot then maybe when could have that natural reset as you mentioned. As is stands the other top factions can even bid on you week in and week out an no one gets on the map. Where is the fun in that? Your gear is fabulous and you are a killer BM and from what I have heard a great guy but I don't see how TWs that are just kill farming events could be preferred.

Exegesis - Heavens Tear

Im not trolling, im entitled to my opinion.. Im not an Enrage fan but im allowed to have a bit of fun about it also, main reason is cause if always been on the other side of the battlefield in TWs.. Ive been TWing since January 2009 when I joined Evolution and nothing comes free.. The guild base should have been a way for factions to enjoy a PvP fight.. too bad its way too expensive for anyone but the strong guilds to get and nobody will ever do those battles when its possible to lose the guild base (as far as I know)


Ill show u some love in game Taleon

Anneliesse - Heavens Tear

MorkFromOrk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Uu



Oh Enrage is not evil. There are several people that get off on being jerks and it seems is generally deemed okay by the faction by laws but that is part of the game.

Tal,
If there were more battles per time slot or you could bid on a timeslot then maybe when could have that natural reset as you mentioned. As is stands the other top factions can even bid on you week in and week out an no one gets on the map. Where is the fun in that? Your gear is fabulous and you are a killer BM and from what I have heard a great guy but I don't see how TWs that are just kill farming events could be preferred.

Mork, do you remember when Rad was "supposedly failing" sooo long ago? the rumor got around that the guild was disbanning or whatever...and that weekend they had, i believe, 28 TWs? Why is it that when a guild is supposedly falling the server goes nuts bidding on them, but when there is no rumor there are no bids? Enrage laughed at all the bids on free lands after the reset. How many guilds would have had land if the entire server had bid on enrage at once? just once? with the availability of possible time slots there is absolutely NO way we could have defended every single one of them, especially if some of the stronger guilds had close time slots. the fact remains that the server QQed about us owning the land, but did NOTHING to try to stop us. We worked hard for what we had, we werent gonna just hand it back to y'all in a little gift box to make everyone else happy. This is HT not LC sorry.

frankieraye

This TW map reset really came at the perfect time-- the reversion of the TW rewards along with a major expansion created just the right environment, one with returning vets and tons of new players.

We're not going to start anything as formal as scheduled TW resets, since this combination of bidding rules and rewards is brand new and we need to see how it plays out, but I'm very glad that we have the reset tool moving forward.

Anneliesse - Heavens Tear

frankieraye wrote: »

This TW map reset really came at the perfect time-- the reversion of the TW rewards along with a major expansion created just the right environment, one with returning vets and tons of new players.

We're not going to start anything as formal as scheduled TW resets, since this combination of bidding rules and rewards is brand new and we need to see how it plays out, but I'm very glad that we have the reset tool moving forward.

the reset was a great idea, brought a bit of fun for everyone. its only a matter of time before it is all owned by one guild again, but it will be fun getting there. tbh i think the reset and coin payout for tw was just a way to get us all to do the new guild bases (which are crazy expensive btw). i cant wait til we can actually DO something with them (40v40 war, anyone?) but until then i guess its fun to play "lvl the coin sink" and QQ about TW...

Miugre - Heavens Tear

frankie, I appreciate you taking the time to read this thread as I requested when it was first posted yesterday.

I would love to continue to discuss this idea with you and/or the possibility of changing the guild base system to be more casual-player-friendly. I mainly built this thread on the former idea because I knew this was something that PWE had control over without needing changes by the devs. Either way, I look forward to a PM reply. :P

Minor edit: I do get your point about it being the perfect time, and the whole idea of a map reset being a trial run. As you can see from this thread, with the exception of a few rigid "me-first" power players, there seems to be general support for it. The consensus seems to be that 3-4 months may be a little too harsh and perhaps a 6-month reset would be more appropriate. I would love the opportunity to see TW "seasons" spring up to foster more intrigue. Again, I look forward to a PM. ;]

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Refer to my rule-of-thumb a couple pages back. Nothing is sacred. Adapt, ignore, or quit.

Refer to my above comment on being God's Gift to MMOs. What exactly was the point of this paragraph? Am I supposed to be impressed that you woke up at all hours of the night? Well way to go, you're competitive. You still don't deserve the entire map 24/7.

Its not up to you to judge what i deserve and what i don't deserve. What I deserve... is that i can take... by force if necessary. You can argue for all the monthly or whatever reset you want. But look at it this way. My archer can one shot mystic's veno. And yet mystic's veno can solo an entire guild of 20+ players. How well do you think your guild can hold up against someone who can multi comp and entire squad and kill farm you and your entire guild for the entire three hours or until all of you give up and leave instance. Cause that's whats going to happen if there is nothing keeping people like me occupied.

And you are not really following your own "rule-of-thumb". Obviously you are not adapting to the gearing up process. You are not really ignoring it... since you are still here. And quitting... well... you are still here.

I on the other hand... did all three. Adapted as evidence by cv-r8-r9. Ignored the **** with the r8 and still went for the r9. And now... i quitted. Oh hey... its three for me... and 0 for you.

Anneliesse - Heavens Tear

i cant help but make note of all the alts in your siggy....

ya know, concentrating on one toon might help you to make it strong enough (without needing to cash shop) to be competitive.... just an observation b:pleased

Saeidon - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

frankie, I appreciate you taking the time to read this thread as I requested when it was first posted yesterday.

I would love to continue to discuss this idea with you and/or the possibility of changing the guild base system to be more casual-player-friendly. I mainly built this thread on the former idea because I knew this was something that PWE had control over without needing changes by the devs. Either way, I look forward to a PM reply. :P

Minor edit: I do get your point about it being the perfect time, and the whole idea of a map reset being a trial run. As you can see from this thread, with the exception of a few rigid "me-first" power players, there seems to be general support for it. The consensus seems to be that 3-4 months may be a little too harsh and perhaps a 6-month reset would be more appropriate. I would love the opportunity to see TW "seasons" spring up to foster more intrigue. Again, I look forward to a PM. ;]

Really Miu, this is the problem with you. You genuinely believe that the GM's should talk to you specifically about how to change an entire multimillion dollar game for the good of a population, even after a large section of the population expressed a dislike for your ideas and methods.

Man, I'll openly admit to being an arrogant egotistical ***** myself... but I think you just took narcissim to a new level.

You are not a modern day MMO messiah.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Saeidon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Really Miu, this is the problem with you. You genuinely believe that the GM's should talk to you specifically about how to change an entire multimillion dollar game for the good of a population, even after a large section of the population expressed a dislike for your ideas and methods.

Man, I'll openly admit to being an arrogant egotistical ***** myself... but I think you just took narcissim to a new level.

You are not a modern day MMO messiah.

You took this the wrong way. I had originally planned for this thread to just be a PM to frankie, but I changed my mind and decided to throw it out and see how it fared. I then sent frankie a PM directing his attention to the idea.

Why do I do this? Because contrary to popular belief, the GMs often do listen. I have communicated with them on several such far-reaching issues in the past (since back in eatwithspoons' day), and most of these resulted in pleasant, if not always productive, discussions (there is a limit to what the GMs can do, after all).

I'm genuinely sorry if you assume some kind of narcissistic intent on my part, but talking to the GMs in order to try and affect change doesn't have some inherently egotistical motive. People treat them like they're aloof gods who care nothing for you or your opinions, and on other games, that may well be the case. In my experience here, though, that's a myth.

So please don't make assumptions of me just because I have an idea that I think is worth the GMs listening to. Nobody's stopping you from doing the same thing.

And finally, let's not kid ourselves on what a "large section of population" is. No matter which way this thread went, it wouldn't be able to serve as any reliable barometer of community opinion. That said, I notice about as much approval as disapproval in this thread, which is about average for one of mine. XD

Anneliesse - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i cant help but make note of all the alts in your siggy....

ya know, concentrating on one toon might help you to make it strong enough (without needing to cash shop) to be competitive.... just an observation b:pleased

I appreciate the way you presented this suggestion - really, I do - but you're not the first to do so. :P I haven't spent nearly two and a half years under lv100 by accident, and my build (which I linked in the OP) is clearly not designed with "being competitive" in mind. That's probably the thing which throws people for a loop the most when they talk to me: that I have no interest in the kind of win-or-lose competition that Kiyoshi does.

Actually, the sig is woefully out-of-date (my sin is basically 90 by now, for instance, and I have a 50s Mystic). I'm working on a few images which I'm going to post on core containing the "alt list" and then remove it from my sig, hopefully replacing it with a sig graphic that doesn't entirely suck. XD A disclaimer on my deliberate lack of "pro" builds might also feature prominently, given the frequency with which I tend to invite fire with it. >_>

(EDIT: Holy **** you made that sig fast.... XD)



And before all of you jump on me for caring about TW with a non-competitive build... nowhere in this thread did I ever say I cared about being competitive against the serious factions. I even said the exact opposite, bluntly, in several different posts. What amazes me is peoples' insistence that my opinion is not only invalid, but does not deserve to be heard by anyone simply on the basis of my gear choices. I don't care how competitive you are, there's such a thing as common decency.

That said, I suppose I should humor Kiyoshi one more time before ending this post...

Its not up to you to judge what i deserve and what i don't deserve. What I deserve... is that i can take... by force if necessary. You can argue for all the monthly or whatever reset you want. But look at it this way. My archer can one shot mystic's veno. And yet mystic's veno can solo an entire guild of 20+ players. How well do you think your guild can hold up against someone who can multi comp and entire squad and kill farm you and your entire guild for the entire three hours or until all of you give up and leave instance. Cause that's whats going to happen if there is nothing keeping people like me occupied.

And you are not really following your own "rule-of-thumb". Obviously you are not adapting to the gearing up process. You are not really ignoring it... since you are still here. And quitting... well... you are still here.

I on the other hand... did all three. Adapted as evidence by cv-r8-r9. Ignored the **** with the r8 and still went for the r9. And now... i quitted. Oh hey... its three for me... and 0 for you.

What I chose to ignore was this insistence by the community that you have to play the game a certain way. For examples:

When Jones Blessings became ubiquitous, I largely ignored them except for the TW, in which I temporarily adapted.

When we became a Token Economy, I adapted (though not without protest - my rule-of-thumb assumes that protest has been tried already and has failed, which is not always the case).

When r8/9 hit, my action was to completely disavow their importance in the game - rank gear merits precisely zero respect from me now. This, too, is an adaptation.

I similarly disavow all pack gear (including Lunar weapons). What FF/Lunar gears I ever get ahold of, I plan to come by legitimately.

APS builds were probably the hardest thing to ignore, but in the end I treat them in exactly the same manner as pack geared and r8/r9 builds. I continue to push for the lowering of the APS cap when appropriate, but at the same time I've accepted the realistic possibility that nothing will be done about it. In most cases, it does not affect my play experience.



Oh and btw, going for r9 isn't ignoring r8; you had to pass it on the way, and you're still buying into that system by using your r9 gear. Thus you embraced it rather than ignored it. And no, trolling the forums isn't quitting.

Anneliesse - Heavens Tear

my apologies for being so blunt...but its a habit:

i find it completely humorous that you point out your desire to purposely not participate in the ever changing popular build/gear trends, but yet insist on attempting to get the game to be changed to what standard you see as appropriate (case in point: i wont adapt to the aps builds but i will petition to make it where others cant as well). what are you trying to achieve, exactly? i'm sorry that the game has evolved into what it has. reality is i really do wish for the times before packs to come back. tw was fun, people worked hard to lvl together and guilds build themselves based on hard work and great strategists. times change. Evolve or move out of the way. nothing is stopping you from doing either. heck, if you wanna go sit out in the sea of isolation and fish all day like we did in the old days, no one is stopping you. play the way that you want, but dont expect the game to change because you want it to.


btw, ty exe for a quote that made me laugh so hard that i had to immediately have a friend turn it into a siggy for me