HT: A case study in what TW was meant to be

Ginrai - Heavens Tear

Good call Miug not entirely sure about map resets on a known schedule.. it would make the month or so leading up to the map reset a bit pointless. What I'd thought would be a neat idea would be if every week there was a, say, 1/3rd chance of every terrority reverting back to 'unowned'. Then nobody would be able to occupy the entire map, and if somehow they ever managed they'd instantly lose 1/3rd of it. There would always be fresh territories for lower factions to bid on and have fun PvE TWs on, yes knowing full well they'll get bid on and wiped out again by bigger factions the following week but really, if you look at what happened after the map reset - tons of smaller facs went crazy bidding and had lots of fun - and they all knew they'd inevitably get wiped off the map again - but nobody really cared because it was a chance at a bit of fun

Though like many discussions its pretty irrelevant since chances of PW ever implementing what players ask for is pretty slim

ValFera - Heavens Tear

Ketania - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bale you're a meanieface!


And whoa whoa I think I missed something..Miu..you think I was trying to cover up the fact that I was Evanera or something?

Ah I missed this as well: After your faction beat that faction lastnight (forget the name) most of you WC'ed saying *good fight* and the sort. However, after DimSum demolished your faction into tiny particles and disemboweled your spirits out of TW, I don't think I saw any WC's saying *good fight*

^Clearly shows how butt hurt you and your faction was after the terrible defeat at the hands of Enrage alts.

Now i do believe i pm'd you after the battle and said good fight, as for the wc i was out the night before and tired so didn't get any. I was in this for the sportmanship and to have a little fun. Which we did but hey we knew we were out matched going in we had seen a few of you around in the day or two leading up and knew from you gear that if you didn't split to defend both we were screwed but we showed and gave it our best.

And as Miugre said once you got in the base with only 1 cata and whole force i called for a retreat we were not going to be kill farmed while 1 cata attacked the crystal.

Ketania - Heavens Tear

There you are. Sorry I forgot what your name was b:surrender

Yes, you did pm me to say good fight. Though, I was merely making a joke about the WC afterward for humorous and trolling effect.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

The game changes, TW changes, you need to learn to be competitive in order to compete with the top dogs. If you detest power leveling then that's fine, but you should be aware that TW is not designed for everyone, nor will it ever be accessible to everyone. TW is designed for the top guilds on a server. Not for any random guild that isn't competitive. You can't have everything, you can't not focus on being competitive and then expect to be able to even stand a chance at a PvP scenario designed for the "elite" of the server.

If you're one of those guilds that are like "we recruit people not levels or w/e" then there's nothing wrong with that at all. But you cannot sit there and put no focus on level of new recruits and expect to be able to TW when any guild with even a chance of getting on the map is going to have a level requirement and more than likely a gear requirement. TW is designed for the best of the best PvP guilds, you cannot be so casual and expect to even stand a chance. No casual player had a chance of holding a territory, and that's how it is designed. You cannot be a casual player and hope to compete with the players who are in guilds that spent a lot of time preparing for TWs.

As for the whole "everything is OP", TW changes and evolves. You don't have to use that stuff, but if you don't you still have to prepare to deal with those who do. If you don't want to powerlevel that's perfectly fine, but if you go into a TW that's even half serious these days YOU WILL GET *****. Anything under level 100 in a TW is pretty much useless and stands no chance. Same for rank 8, it has become standard now. It can be farmed so easily and everyone has it. If you don't want to get it then that's fine, but if you put yourself in a competitive environment, then you better be prepared to deal with those who do. Same for APS builds, you can hate them all you want, but they are extremely effective, and if you don't want to build for high APS then that's fine, but you will lose to those who do.


As for a TW reset, it's a terrible idea. It reduces any air of competitiveness and makes TW kind of boring. First there's eliminating the hard work of those who sought to obtain high numbers of territories. Second it destroys any competition. As it is now people have learned to fight for their territories and earn what they get. If you frequently reset the map then what's the point? Why bother trying to take down this one faction, when I can just wait for it to reset? Territories are earned, and should be earned, rather than handed out like candy from a teacher.


If you don't want to become competitive that's fine, but you will lose to competitive factions and players.

LShattered - Heavens Tear

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Very nice post, wish I came up with it myself, seeing how I tend to talk about this with my closest friends in game.

Hopefully this thread actually continues with logical points and perspective. After all, this is the stuff I like, not the gears, the game, the people, but the perspective and logic we share.

My favorite moments in TW were when I was in TE fighting Tao. I think most ppl who were involved in that agreed it was just pure legit fun.

Those were the BEST TWs i have had in a long time. Also Caesar vs Tao was very fun.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

We had loads of fun in the PvE TW, and I would absolutely love to have the chance for that in the future again. As Ginrai mentioned however, a set schedule reset could make things a little bit difficult... but I definitely like the idea of a random unannounced reset (with at least a a few months in between). And I like the idea of smaller factions getting a chance now and then, even if for a short while, to have their chance at a fight.

ValFera - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

The game changes, TW changes, you need to learn to be competitive in order to compete with the top dogs. If you detest power leveling then that's fine, but you should be aware that TW is not designed for everyone, nor will it ever be accessible to everyone. TW is designed for the top guilds on a server. Not for any random guild that isn't competitive. You can't have everything, you can't not focus on being competitive and then expect to be able to even stand a chance at a PvP scenario designed for the "elite" of the server.

If you're one of those guilds that are like "we recruit people not levels or w/e" then there's nothing wrong with that at all. But you cannot sit there and put no focus on level of new recruits and expect to be able to TW when any guild with even a chance of getting on the map is going to have a level requirement and more than likely a gear requirement. TW is designed for the best of the best PvP guilds, you cannot be so casual and expect to even stand a chance. No casual player had a chance of holding a territory, and that's how it is designed. You cannot be a casual player and hope to compete with the players who are in guilds that spent a lot of time preparing for TWs.

As for the whole "everything is OP", TW changes and evolves. You don't have to use that stuff, but if you don't you still have to prepare to deal with those who do. If you don't want to powerlevel that's perfectly fine, but if you go into a TW that's even half serious these days YOU WILL GET *****. Anything under level 100 in a TW is pretty much useless and stands no chance. Same for rank 8, it has become standard now. It can be farmed so easily and everyone has it. If you don't want to get it then that's fine, but if you put yourself in a competitive environment, then you better be prepared to deal with those who do. Same for APS builds, you can hate them all you want, but they are extremely effective, and if you don't want to build for high APS then that's fine, but you will lose to those who do.


As for a TW reset, it's a terrible idea. It reduces any air of competitiveness and makes TW kind of boring. First there's eliminating the hard work of those who sought to obtain high numbers of territories. Second it destroys any competition. As it is now people have learned to fight for their territories and earn what they get. If you frequently reset the map then what's the point? Why bother trying to take down this one faction, when I can just wait for it to reset? Territories are earned, and should be earned, rather than handed out like candy from a teacher.


If you don't want to become competitive that's fine, but you will lose to competitive factions and players.

Don't like it on your server that is fine, but maybe our server is more progressive than yours.

It would be good for the economy as a whole and it would help to make those that can't afford to put thousands of dollars into this game, and yes i know there are those that don't best known is the 105 sin on LC that didn't spend a dime on the game, become better with the lower factions getting some land and thus some of the coin rewards for owning that land to be put back into the smaller their members making them more competitive etc.

But once a power faction has complete control of the map unless they fall apart or thier members quit it goes from having 15-30 TW battles a week down to about 3-4 of the larger factions that have a chance attacking and that is all.

We are not asking for a hand out, but with the way it is currently seems to be a whole lot more fun being had by all than about 4 weeks ago when the total number of wars was about 4. And if the GM's don't like it on a regular schedule say maybe on a random one generated by the game itself (yea i know that requires coding from the devs) but that is also a thought.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

ValFera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Don't like it on your server that is fine, but maybe our server is more progressive than yours.

It would be good for the economy as a whole and it would help to make those that can't afford to put thousands of dollars into this game, and yes i know there are those that don't best known is the 105 sin on LC that didn't spend a dime on the game, become better with the lower factions getting some land and thus some of the coin rewards for owning that land to be put back into the smaller their members making them more competitive etc.

But once a power faction has complete control of the map unless they fall apart or thier members quit it goes from having 15-30 TW battles a week down to about 3-4 of the larger factions that have a chance attacking and that is all.

We are not asking for a hand out, but with the way it is currently seems to be a whole lot more fun being had by all than about 4 weeks ago when the total number of wars was about 4. And if the GM's don't like it on a regular schedule say maybe on a random one generated by the game itself (yea i know that requires coding from the devs) but that is also a thought.

This isn't just my server, it's the same on all servers.

But once a power faction has complete control of the map unless they fall apart or thier members quit it goes from having 15-30 TW battles a week down to about 3-4 of the larger factions that have a chance attacking and that is all.

That's the way it was designed. TW isn't designed for every random faction to have land and compete in TW. TW is designed for the factions that work at it. You have no idea how much time is spent by the big TW guilds preparing squads, setting up vent, analyzing strategies, practicing for TWs, and monitoring the current gear/levels of guild members as well as monitoring their progress.

They worked for their land and they deserve it, and if you don't want to be competitive that's fine, but TW is for the top dogs on the servers, not everyone.

Sukinee - Heavens Tear

The map reseting every once in a few months shows the real gods in this game...the GMs ._.

X_trigger_X - Heavens Tear

As was mentioned, there just needs to be a way for the "lower league" guilds to compete against each other. I know alot of people that would love to experience TW, but have no interest in doing nirvana over and over for example, or don't have the time during the week to farm. Or simply don't care for "being the best" and competing with +8 nirvana or r9.



Hopefully guild base wars will give people this option b:cute if they ever get round to it.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

WHOAMG blue text about competitiveness and such

May I just say that this is probably the least troll-like I've ever seen you, sir. :P Kudos.

Competitiveness is all well and good, and you can rant about how "the game was designed" until your fingers fall off from typing, but it just sounds like a "things should be THIS way" kind of argument. And trust me, I've made my share of those and I have my own ideas about how the "game was designed" (if you want an idea, search my name for a thread I made right before Genesis launched).

But there's a rule you need to follow when you're playing an actively-updated MMO... and IMO it could well be rule #1. It is, simply, "nothing is sacred." Features, gameplay elements, and entire systems will be added, modified, screwed over or removed entirely, solely at the whim of the game's owners/organizers. Don't tell me you haven't disagreed with at least one decision that PWE has done so far. The entire bastardized PVP system I spoke of in the OP is one thing that I may otherwise have held sacred, had I gotten into it before it was messed up.

But frankly, I don't see how regular resets will kill your fun. Competition will still thrive between many levels of player gear and skill, and the big factions will still be victorious in the end anyway. Live and let live.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

The limits on the amount of simultaneous attacks on one faction as well as lack of territory limits gives evidence that it's designed for competitive players.


Oh, believe me, I hate how PvP has changed recently as well. But the thing is, if you want to be involved in TW and the competitive nature of it, you gotta learn to roll with it. I hate how cheap R8 is now a days, but I also went out and bought a shiny new R8 polehammer because its necessary to compete with others.


Regular resets kill the real competition, simply because of the nature of players.

Say that there are two top TW guilds. Before the reset, guild A lost to guild B a couple times, but has recently been winning. Then the map resets. Guild B, knowing that guild A is coming off a streak will more than likely do what they can to avoid Guild A. Take RT server for example. The guild QQme lost to the guild Vicious once, but in the most recent TWs leading up to the server reset, the guild QQme had won all their fights. As a result, the guild vicious, knowing we would bid near 1k, bid as far from there as possible. This is always going to happen, a guild that is at a disadvantage, even if they're the best faction to go toe to toe with the major guild, is going to shy away from confrontation, and eat up small factions instead, because they would rather have a 100% chance of winning rather than a 30%. It's actually a long time before the major guilds ever have any decent TWs, and they don't usually happen until all but around 4 factions are off the map, at which time the biggest of the 4 will try to eat the others and the other 3 will gang up on the big one, usually.

Another reason why a reset would kill the competitiveness can be seen by the sudden competition gained as one guild approaches, and maybe claims, the entire TW map in their color. Reason for this is that as one guild approaches a one color map, it serves as a wake up call to the rest of the server. Until then they just avoided this faction and fought amongst themselves, but as it approaches a one color map they realize "hey, we have to do something or else we will have a one guild map", and you see triple attacks become more common.

Now imagine the map was about to reset in a month. Suddenly, it doesn't matter to you. Why bother organizing and working to stop them? Why offer a resistance? Why fight back? In a week or two the map is getting reset.



Now, with that said frequent map resets wouldn't be a terrible idea, but 3/4 months is far too common, should be a much longer time frame, with enough time for a dedicated guild to obtain the entire map. Something like 18 months.

Shifong - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The PVP system is still grotesquely broken, but this one simple change will go a long way towards making it interesting again in spite of that. My plea to you, PWE: Keep TW fresh. Do semi-regular resets.

I totally agree with this... TW right now is so much fun at the moment, and resets makes players involved who normally wouldn't TW. 4 month reset would give you 17 weeks to play with. In a way i agree that the goal of owning the whole map is a lot of fun to achieve, but that takes atleast a year if not longer, and usually the fun for all the other smaller factions have been demolished a long time before the map is owned by one faction. Personally i don't see the point of "world domination". If you're the strongest faction you can show that by beating all the other big factions, you don't need every land to show you're the best. Besides, why should the strongest and usually best geared faction be rewarded with so much coin reward for over a year long and have a monopoly on all the apoth, rewards are normal, but when one faction owns the whole map and thus reeks in billions i'd call that unbalanced. So either 4 or 6 months should be more then enough to have some serious fun fights and enough time to achieve certain goals in taking lands.

My most enjoyable TW's i've experienced was over a year ago, 3 hour battles between Radiance and Ceasar. These kind of wars will never happen anymore because of the simple fact that we have rank 9 and jones blessings now.

Momento - Heavens Tear

I think you fail to recognize what an MMORPG is. An MMORPG's is a special type of video game genre. They are characterized by the ability to meet, talk and interact with other individuals within their virtual realms. Because MMORPGS are basically virtual communities, economics, politics, reputation, fame, infamy are key components to the experience. They are, in essence, an emulation of the real world. As an emulation of the real world, it makes sense that logic that guides the real world pervades into the virtual one. Therefore any comparison between real world situations and in-game situations that resemble them are more than valid.

Players spend time and money in order to be better than their contemporaries. By removing incentives and other things that help distinguish excellent players, you encroach upon the key components of MMORPG culture. Changing the system doesn't make the game more fair. It makes the game both less fair and less enduring. Depriving players of what they have earned, doesn't sound very fair to me. You have a unmerited sense of entitlement.

You can treat this game however you see fit. You can play on your free time. You can play all day well into the night. People will succeed at whatever they prioritize. Those that choose their occupation over their social lives will further their careers. By the same token, those that choose to invest in ther characters will surpass those that don't. Those that devote themselves will fare better than those that don't in every industry.

Like I said, you are asking for charity. You have failed to accomplish anything that would give your opinion any authority and are asking for axiomatical changes. It would be nothing less than philanthropy to even consider your proposal.




The only plausible solution I can conceive would be to adapt the arena to accomodate faction vs. faction instances. But that will obviously be less prestigious and pale in comparison to Territorial War. I think you should consider ways to experience pvp without entrenching upon one of the major tenets of the game.

Eat it *****

Saeidon - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But frankly, I don't see how regular resets will kill your fun. Competition will still thrive between many levels of player gear and skill, and the big factions will still be victorious in the end anyway. Live and let live.

This is easily the most boring period of TW ever for me, just taking lands vs empty instances and easy pve mobs.

You could argue that we could be attacking other larger factions instead and having some fun instead of picking up a decent land base first, and that argument would certainly be valid. HOWEVER if your idea were to happen, we would be in that position every 6 months, the bigger factions that have worked their asses off to be there would have to choose each time, do we take the coin bonuses from TW that we have worked so hard for, while boring ourselves to death for a few weeks, or do we just attack the bigger factions from the start, have some fun, and gain no more from TW than the lower factions.

If TW were reset every 6 months, the larger factions would gain very little more than the smaller factions.
So let me ask you this, why should the smaller factions gain just as much as us? They haven't worked for it, they don't even have as many members, and they certainly care a hell of a lot less about it.

Its simple in any game, you work harder, you get bigger rewards. You can't expect equal TW rewards with those who have worked to be at the top. It would be equvalent to having every TT instance drop the same mats, regardless of difficulty.

Shifong - Heavens Tear

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think you fail to recognize what an MMORPG is. An MMORPG's is a special type of video game genre. They are characterized by the ability to meet, talk and interact with other individuals within their virtual realms. Because MMORPGS are basically virtual communities, economics, politics, reputation, fame, infamy are key components to the experience. They are, in essence, an emulation of the real world. As an emulation of the real world, it makes sense that logic that guides the real world pervades into the virtual one.

You forgot one big reason why people play mmorpg's, which is to escape from real life. Just because a game has real life components doesn't mean that the playerbase is wishing for a real life emulation.

If TW were reset every 6 months, the larger factions would gain very little more than the smaller factions.
So let me ask you this, why should the smaller factions gain just as much as us? They haven't worked for it, they don't even have as many members, and they certainly care a hell of a lot less about it.

26 weeks is enough time to take over HALF the map for a faction. You can take all the important apoth land too. Smaller factions wouldn't even be able to dream about those kinds of goals. And a faction who took half the map gets more then enough as reward for it. In those 26 weeks, a ****load can happen, and i'm sure a lot of fun fights. I agree that the few first weeks is a bit silent but the weeks after that should be worth it, but it still excites me because it's like playing risk which is all about strategy.

I say no thank you to the major stalemate we've been having in the past in HT.

Sukinee - Heavens Tear

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think you fail to recognize what an MMORPG is. An MMORPG's is a special type of video game genre. They are characterized by the ability to meet, talk and interact with other individuals within their virtual realms. Because MMORPGS are basically virtual communities, economics, politics, reputation, fame, infamy are key components to the experience. They are, in essence, an emulation of the real world. As an emulation of the real world, it makes sense that logic that guides the real world pervades into the virtual one. Therefore any comparison between real world situations and in-game situations that resemble them are more than valid.

Players spend time and money in order to be better than their contemporaries. By removing incentives and other things that help distinguish excellent players, you encroach upon the key components of MMORPG culture. Changing the system doesn't make the game more fair. It makes the game both less fair and less enduring. Depriving players of what they have earned, doesn't sound very fair to me. You have a unmerited sense of entitlement.

You can treat this game however you see fit. You can play on your free time. You can play all day well into the night. People will succeed at whatever they prioritize. Those that choose their occupation over their social lives will further their careers. By the same token, those that choose to invest in ther characters will surpass those that don't. Those that devote themselves will fare better than those that don't in every industry.

Like I said, you are asking for charity. You have failed to accomplish anything that would give your opinion any authority and are asking for axiomatical changes. It would be nothing less than philanthropy to even consider your proposal.




The only plausible solution I can conceive would be to adapt the arena to accomendate faction vs. faction instances. But that will obviously be less prestigious and pale in comparison to Territorial War. I think you should consider ways to experience pvp without entrenching upon one of the major tenets of the game.

Eat it *****

Virtual worlds do NOT under any circumstances count as placing yourself into reality. Having people to talk to online can be great if you are bored at home, ready to do a quest, or have gotten home from work/school. Having online friends is no way the same as having real life friends in which you see their face and interact with them in a tangible, physical environment. There is a sense of denial when one just counts the real world as being virtual. We all play this game for our own reasons, including perhaps an escape from reality's daily hassles and stress however when one does not take control of their real life issues then they tend to look for other sources (games) to escape.

Yes I do know what an MMORPG is, and again I would like to repeat myself in saying I have done a lot of research into this subject, as part of my real life studies involves psychology and sociology.

Saying that a game like this can be serious is honestly no different at all then some random person on the street saying that they are one of the top people in a flash game that FaceBook has. I have honestly heard from co-workers and friends bragging about how they are better than everyone else in these games and how much real life money they have spent to achieve their "goals" by actually doing things such as planning in advance, collaborating with friends, and actually "killing" other toons in this game.

Is this a good comparison? Absolutely because again, in the end it does not reflect who you are as a human being. No one cares in the real world how many people you have "pwned" in TW. TW, like anything else in this game is meant to be casual not serious. There is no end game. There are no real goals. Myself, you, the OP, anyone in the game/community is no better than anyone else. What matters is what you, as a person do to have a good time in the game and I would honestly find it sad if there are people that actually take joy and pride when causing someone suffering...then again karma has a tendency to rear its ugly head.

Your insults continue to sound like my 13-year old brother on his console playing live FPS games, bragging about how he "pwns everyone and everyone should respect him", while I continue to study for an exam, just not caring about what he has to say.

Might I just finish my statement by this quote, and this is meant for everyone that really just likes bullying others..."misery does not enjoy company", whether in real life or in a virtual reality.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think you fail to recognize what an MMORPG is. An MMORPG's is a special type of video game genre. They are characterized by the ability to meet, talk and interact with other individuals within their virtual realms. Because MMORPGS are basically virtual communities, economics, politics, reputation, fame, infamy are key components to the experience. They are, in essence, an emulation of the real world. As an emulation of the real world, it makes sense that logic that guides the real world pervades into the virtual one. Therefore any comparison between real world situations and in-game situations that resemble them are more than valid.

Players spend time and money in order to be better than their contemporaries. By removing incentives and other things that help distinguish excellent players, you encroach upon the key components of MMORPG culture. Changing the system doesn't make the game more fair. It makes the game both less fair and less enduring. Depriving players of what they have earned, doesn't sound very fair to me. You have a unmerited sense of entitlement.

You can treat this game however you see fit. You can play on your free time. You can play all day well into the night. People will succeed at whatever they prioritize. Those that choose their occupation over their social lives will further their careers. By the same token, those that choose to invest in ther characters will surpass those that don't. Those that devote themselves will fare better than those that don't in every industry.

Like I said, you are asking for charity. You have failed to accomplish anything that would give your opinion any authority and are asking for axiomatical changes. It would be nothing less than philanthropy to even consider your proposal.




The only plausible solution I can conceive would be to adapt the arena to accomendate faction vs. faction instances. But that will obviously be less prestigious and pale in comparison to Territorial War. I think you should consider ways to experience pvp without entrenching upon one of the major tenets of the game.

Eat it *****

Must end on a nasty note at all costs, eh?

Charity would be demanding land. I am by no means demanding land, I simply believe that I should, with my faction, be allowed to fight others for one as opposed to simply trying to attack the one prominent land-owning faction only to be steamrolled.

Do not try to put "recognizing good players" on a pedestal in a free-to-play MMO. You and I both know that "the good" and "the spenders" are often intertwined, and yet are just as often mutually exclusive. Furthermore, any company that runs an MMO must concern themselves with their bottom line, and in a f2p game, that often means cannibalizing a core aspect of gameplay to ensure stability. Reputation and Rank 8/9 are a perfect example of this. Rank 8 used to be a way to denote very dedicated players - those who completed all cultis and other key quests, helped in wraith attacks, and oh yeah, did FBs for other people, among other things. While I shudder to think of the effort people must have put into getting Rank 8 in those days, it was at least a legitimate achievement. Since the first rep sale, Rank 8 officially means that you can spend about $70, or its equivalent in game hours. Do not try to tell me that this is a feat worthy of the "incentives" you speak of.

Rawrgh wrote:

This is always going to happen, a guild that is at a disadvantage, even if they're the best faction to go toe to toe with the major guild, is going to shy away from confrontation, and eat up small factions instead, because they would rather have a 100% chance of winning rather than a 30%.

And that right there is the problem. They concern themselves with staying on the map as long as possible because they're too concerned with the big picture... even if they're only delaying the inevitable. My proposal would remove that big picture, leaving major factions no reason not to go toe-to-toe with each other because it doesn't matter anyway. Wanna beat Enrage, or QQme, or whatever is the equivalent on a given server? Challenge them! I guarantee you they'll have a territory the first week on just about every reset that ever happens, so you'll have no shortage of opportunities to get your *** handed to you if you so desire.

As for your second argument, Enrage claimed the entire HT map and held it for months before the Genesis reset. Now, you can speculate how you will on why no single faction rose to challenge Enrage on that front (and many have done so), but the fact remains that your "hey, someone's going to kill them off eventually" theory is by no means airtight. People who have power and excess are never quick to just give them up, and frankly waiting around to see who manages to wring a land out of Enrage's grasp first is not my idea of an intriguing system, nor is it many other peoples'.

Amourie - Heavens Tear

I've never participated in a non-PVE TW... yet. I'm way excited to TW with my main but I do have to admit I'm really excited to TW with my **** geared lower level mystic with the alt faction.

It's not as serious and there's less pressure and potential drama involved, like there obviously is with more "serious" TWs. And like people have argued here, not everyone in bigger factions is a peensucker, but I'm glad I'm in my particular faction because they're not pricks. I've never had any bad experiences with them like I have with other certain factions b:sweat

The behavior I'm reading here makes me really, really embarrassed for the people that are acting like wild animals. Give me a break, this is a game, not the highschool hallways. But I must say reading this makes me really glad I'm not associated with you lol b:shocked

Anyways.. I'll have to give a real opinion after I experience TW more but it just seems like everyone's in better spirits now that the map has reset and people actually have a chance.. at least for awhile. I quite like the idea of a reset every now and then

Momento - Heavens Tear

You can attack any land holding faction at any time. Just because you will get steamrolled isn't a valid reason to condemn the system. Why did you get steam rolled? You were less committed. Yes, spending money often correlates with superior gear. But are you, personally, willing to sacrifice your money to be accomplished in a video game? If its beneath you, then you really have no right to complain.

You have the same opportunities that they do. You can't change something on the grounds that you can't compete.

It's charity because they give up their lands/efforts. Not necessarily to you.







And to the other person, I think you are niave and narrow-minded. You assume that your beliefs are universal. I can tell you for a fact that people do devote their lives to games. Have ever taken the time to consider what exactly getting to the last level of pac man really means? Or the dedication required to hold the world record for Donkey Kong? Did you fail to consider that video games can be an occupation? For instance, every month, people are playing starcraft 2 for hundreds of thousands of dollars. The members of a starcraft team live together in an apartment, share meals, have personalized coaches and strategy meetings. That not only are there Television shows devoted to it in Korea, but it can be compared to a national sport. Ping pong champions begin playing in their infancy and tape their dominant hand to become ambidextrous.


"In June 2010 (according to YGosu.Com), Jaedong is the first on total prize money score, sAviOr, Flash, NaDa, and Bisu are from the second to fifth. Jaedong received his first prize money in 2007; sAviOr, Flash, NaDa, and Bisu — in 2005, in 2007, in 2002, and in 2006 respectively. The aggregate amount of prize money for Jaedong is 361M₩ (sAviOr has 305M₩, Flash has 300.15M₩, NaDa has 297.35M₩, and Bisu has 273.5M₩)."

You know what that correlates to? 324000 US dollars in prize money within 3 years. Not to mention the guy has endorsements like Michael Jordan over there and is considered a national celebrity. I guess that would be trivial huh?



I'm sorry that at the age of 23, I don't have the developed perception of what reality is that you seem to have.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Rank 8 used to be a way to denote very dedicated players - those who completed all cultis and other key quests, helped in wraith attacks, and oh yeah, did FBs for other people, among other things.

No, it wasn't. Rank 8 denoted players who spent a lot of money on tokens to make wraiths badges. You could do nothing but farm rep in game all day every day and it would take over 2 years to get rank 8. The only way to reasonably get rank 8 in game is to buy the badges. There was one players who did nothing but farm rep in game, after 18 months he had rank 6, 35k rep, not even 20% of rank 8.

And that right there is the problem. They concern themselves with staying on the map as long as possible because they're too concerned with the big picture... even if they're only delaying the inevitable. My proposal would remove that big picture, leaving major factions no reason not to go toe-to-toe with each other because it doesn't matter anyway. Wanna beat Enrage, or QQme, or whatever is the equivalent on a given server? Challenge them! I guarantee you they'll have a territory the first week on just about every reset that ever happens, so you'll have no shortage of opportunities to get your *** handed to you if you so desire.

When you eliminate or reduce the rewards then you remove the competitive nature.

Example being when TW pay was changed to mirages. Lots of guilds severely lost interest in TW and the number of guild participating went down.

Players begin to ask, why am I burning two platinum charms for a land we're just going to lose?

Why did I farm all that apoth for a land that we lose in the reset?

Why did I make all those defense charms for land we lose?

Why did I spend all those hours meticulously creating the ideal TW squads to have our lands taken?

Why did our guild put so much effort into lands that just get taken away?



Guilds work for their lands, and they deserve to keep them. If you aren't able to compete with them, then TW is not for you. Plain and simple, every game needs something for the top players, something for the best of the best. In PWI, that is TW. Only the best guilds compete in TW, and they deserve their victories.

Sukinee - Heavens Tear

-

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You can attack any land holding faction at any time. Just because you will get steamrolled isn't a valid reason to condemn the system. Why did you get steam rolled? You were less committed. Yes, spending money often correlates with superior gear. But are you, personally, willing to sacrifice your money to be accomplished in a video game? If its beneath you, then you really have no right to complain.

You have the same opportunities that they do. You can't change something on the grounds that you can't compete.

It's charity because they give up their lands/efforts. Not necessarily to you.







And to the other person, I think you are niave and narrow-minded. You assume that your beliefs are universal. I can tell you for a fact that people do devote their lives to games. Have ever taken the time to consider what exactly getting to the last level of pac man really means? Or the dedication required to hold the world record for Donkey Kong? Did you fail to consider that video games can be an occupation? For instance, every month, people are playing starcraft 2 for hundreds of thousands of dollars. The members of a starcraft team live together in an apartment, share meals, have personalized coaches and strategy meetings. That not only are there Television shows devoted to it in Korea, but it can be compared to a national sport. Ping pong champions begin playing in their infancy and tape their dominant hand to become ambidextrous.


"In June 2010 (according to YGosu.Com), Jaedong is the first on total prize money score, sAviOr, Flash, NaDa, and Bisu are from the second to fifth. Jaedong received his first prize money in 2007; sAviOr, Flash, NaDa, and Bisu

No one is being paid to play this game. This game is a system where you simply pay into a system not the other way around. So in this case the argument made about some people being paid to play a game is not entirely correct in this context.

I will no longer go philiosphical in my argument as I believe that I have stated what I needed to say in my last post. I'm sorry if you don't agree with me. I just want everyone to have fun -_-

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And to the other person, I think you are niave and narrow-minded. You assume that your beliefs are universal. I can tell you for a fact that people do devote their lives to games. Have ever taken the time to consider what exactly getting to the last level of pac man really means? Or the dedication required to hold the world record for Donkey Kong? Did you fail to consider that video games can be an occupation? For instance, every month, people are playing starcraft 2 for hundreds of thousands of dollars. The members of a starcraft team live together in an apartment, share meals, have personalized coaches and strategy meetings. That not only are there Television shows devoted to it in Korea, but it can be compared to a national sport. Ping pong champions begin playing in their infancy and tape their dominant hand to become ambidextrous.


[special chars here - must remove to prevent post truncation >_>]

You know what that correlates to? 324000 US dollars in prize money within 3 years. Not to mention the guy has endorsements like Michael Jordan over there and is considered a national celebrity. I guess that would be trivial huh?



I'm sorry that at the age of 23, I don't have the developed perception of what reality is that you seem to have.

So what're you saying to her here? That professional gamers can have a worldview that coincides with gaming? How is this relevant to MMO players? Last I checked, we were paying PWE, not the other way around.

And for your other example (Pacman/DK)... last level? Sure that's an achievement. High score? Of course... and that one's even competitive. They're still not the same thing though. I have no wish to fight Enrage. Enrage and whatever faction manages to topple them (if ever) deserve their place at the top. What I have a problem with is your assumption that "their place at the top" needs to entail complete and permanent control of the map. I should not have to fight Enrage as a prerequisite to get to the battles that are actually fun (as if I could even beat Enrage at all).

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You can attack any land holding faction at any time. Just because you will get steamrolled isn't a valid reason to condemn the system. Why did you get steam rolled? You were less committed. Yes, spending money often correlates with superior gear. But are you, personally, willing to sacrifice your money to be accomplished in a video game? If its beneath you, then you really have no right to complain.

You have the same opportunities that they do. You can't change something on the grounds that you can't compete.

It's charity because they give up their lands/efforts. Not necessarily to you.

So you would continue to support a system which effectively walls off entire portions of a game to all but those who would sacrifice an amount of life resources (be they time or money or both) which would be ludicrously unacceptable (and arguably unhealthy) to anyone else?

"Pay to win" I can almost understand. What I don't understand - largely because you've yet to give me a solid argument for it - is how my proposal would so soundly ruin the game for you, or anyone else on your pedestal of "commitment." What harm does it do? Why is it crucial to your fun to hold all the lands so that people with less time on their hands can't play? What possible rationalization is there for such a belief, other than pure unapologetic greed? Are you seriously telling me that you're opposing a change in a video game because it's "supposed to mirror the real world?" Because here's some "real world" for you: things change, and we all have to adapt. I, and many others like me, have had to adapt to the PVP system changing to the point of it being no longer logistically possible to compete in. We've put up with this for two years. If you're really going to sit here and say with a straight face that your ability to hold the entire map is central to your play experience, then I can only tell you that it's your turn to get with the change.

NuDe - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

No, it wasn't. Rank 8 denoted players who spent a lot of money on tokens to make wraiths badges. You could do nothing but farm rep in game all day every day and it would take over 2 years to get rank 8. The only way to reasonably get rank 8 in game is to buy the badges. There was one players who did nothing but farm rep in game, after 18 months he had rank 6, 35k rep, not even 20% of rank 8.

I'm not sure, but i think you're wrong

Momento - Heavens Tear

Some people do make money from MMORPGs. There is a thing called ebay.


When I was younger D2, Knight Online funded tennis rackets, computers, prom, and even college textbooks.


I'm pretty sure one of the leaders of one of the first TWing guilds stopped logging on and sold their account on ebay for thousands. And while I played, there were many instances where people I knew were paid via paypal for in game items.


For a more extreme example, you can check out this video about chinese gold farmers that play games for their livelyhood. Shopowners sell gold via ebay/paypal to buyers across seas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEegohRPsqg

Incidently there is even a section about how a virtual community compares to an actual one.



How it would ruin my enjoyment with this game personally? It wouldn't. I don't even play this game. I'm just taking a philosophical standpoint on the issue. I'm just saying that you don't deserve to go to a Territory War if you were to be compared to all the people that have put in more effort than you. I'm saying if someone were to advocate change, it shouldn't be your undeserving ***.

Duckingtiger - Heavens Tear

I must disagree with the 2yrs thing and getting rank 8 first. When I lvld my psy i decided i didnt want to deal with the problems of upgrading gear much and decided my best path was to get rank gear.I wont do it on my barb cause,well, he alrdy has decent gear. So my next thing was to choose a path,i could,like many others, cash it.But I am,and you can ask any that know me, notoriously fiscally irresponsible,in game and out.Meaning instead of buying d-orbs or what ever when i spend rl money,i buy smilies and stupid things that will last all of a week. So instead I took a more indirect route and flipped tokens.It was slow at first,took me like 2 weeks b4 i was able to buy more then a couple hundred,again mostly cause i spend coin on stupid ****.But in the 3 or so months i played by psy i was able to buy enough rank badges to get over 50k rep.Thats only having a cat shop up for 3-4 hours a week.If i wanted to I could have had it up longer and that would lead to more income and more rep.It is possible to get the 200k in rep in less then a month when you look at it that way.My seeker,ive done the same thing with.Ive flipped coin. In less then a month,and only setting up cat shop twice,i have over 50k rep.I slowed down cause,well my seeker isnt high enough lvl yet to use the rep it has so no real point there. My point is,if you have the time and resources to do so,it is possible to achieve rank gear in a matter of weeks,not only years.



now for more important post. Many people try to say 'this is a game play it like one'blah blah blah. The thing they seem to forget is behind everytoon,is a human being. and despite how much many people may want to leave their humanity behind it will not happen. Alot of what a person is in Rl coincides with who they are in game. We are human,we are going to get up set over stupid things.Gonna argue over superiority,weather its gear,fashion,or tw. Speaking of tw, the reason larger factions will take an easier fight,almost guaranteed 100%,is this:Fight or flight. How is it fight or flight you ask? Its simple when put with a decision that may jeopardize a person,or something the person has worked for they have 2 reactions they can take.They can fight,which in tw means taking on the big guns,or they can flight, taking on the little guys that stand no chance. Human nature means they want longevity,they want to survive and grow and continue to do so as much as possible with out confronting something that may hinder,slow or even stop said growth. Its not that a faction is scared to fight,its the natural human response to take the easy route rather then the hard one.

NuDe - Heavens Tear

We should fix a MAX character limits

just sayin

Ginrai - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Example being when TW pay was changed to mirages. Lots of guilds severely lost interest in TW and the number of guild participating went down.

Yes, it was awesome Suddenly you didn't get a paycheck just for bullying everyone else off the map, you couldn't just put your feet up and let the money roll in and let the dominant faction just get more and more money for better and better gears, which only serves to widen the gap between them and lower factions making them more impossible to attack. So the situation just gets progressively worse.

Instead you actually had to *work* to get money, whether that be running TT/nirvana or running catshops all day. Well that's just what the rest of us have to do, so forgive me if I didn't feel sorry for you :P I actually hoped the mirage pay would stop the bigger factions being at all interested in TW and they would allow their lands to be taken simply because there was little point keeping them anymore, thereby allowing other factions to enjoy TW just for the fun of it, not for pay. But sadly that didn't seem to happen.

Fuzzballs - Heavens Tear

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Have ever taken the time to consider what exactly getting to the last level of pac man really means?

I couldn't complete that last level, it was bugged b:cry

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Some people do make money from MMORPGs. There is a thing called ebay.


When I was younger D2, Knight Online funded tennis rackets, computers, prom, and even college textbooks.


I'm pretty sure one of the leaders of one of the first TWing guilds stopped logging on and sold their account on ebay for thousands. And while I played, there were many instances where people I knew were paid via paypal for in game items.


For a more extreme example, you can check out this video about chinese gold farmers that play games for their livelyhood. Shopowners sell gold via ebay/paypal to buyers across seas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEegohRPsqg

Incidently there is even a section about how a virtual community compares to an actual one.

How exactly is this a point in favor of the current TW system? If anything, this is evidence that TW resets need to be implemented as a sobering agent for these people. I'm sorry, but if you buy or sell any coin, items, or characters for real money, then you instantly forfeit your right to pose any sort of real-world comparison argument (among others). Because if we are going to humor your "PWI is like the real world, lolz" scenario, then guess what - there are "laws" against this sort of thing (see sections 11m and 15). You can't have it both ways.

Momento - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How it would ruin my enjoyment with this game personally? It wouldn't. I don't even play this game. I'm just taking a philosophical standpoint on the issue. I'm just saying that you don't deserve to go to a Territory War if you were to be compared to all the people that have put in more effort than you. I'm saying if someone were to advocate change, it shouldn't be your undeserving ***.

Do me a favor, then. Please show me whatever certification you have to decide what, in fact, I do and do not "deserve." Because - and this is kinda funny, here - I could've sworn that PWE decided to reset the TW map less than a month ago. Hence, they apparently think that I "deserve" to fight in a TW so long as my faction bids on the right land with the right amount of coin. Huh. o.O

All sarcasm aside, I believe I already told you that I have no interest in fighting Enrage, nor do they have any business being a prerequisite. All I want is to be able to fight other small factions for fun and maybe the novelty of a land on the map for a week or two. But according to you, I don't "deserve" this because a handful of people who put in unhealthy amounts of time/money into this game would have their fragile worldviews shattered if they were not allowed to hold the entire TW map at all times.

Duckingtiger - Heavens Tear wrote:

The thing they seem to forget is behind everytoon,is a human being. and despite how much many people may want to leave their humanity behind it will not happen. Alot of what a person is in Rl coincides with who they are in game. We are human,we are going to get up set over stupid things.Gonna argue over superiority,weather its gear,fashion,or tw. Speaking of tw, the reason larger factions will take an easier fight,almost guaranteed 100%,is this:Fight or flight. How is it fight or flight you ask? Its simple when put with a decision that may jeopardize a person,or something the person has worked for they have 2 reactions they can take.They can fight,which in tw means taking on the big guns,or they can flight, taking on the little guys that stand no chance. Human nature means they want longevity,they want to survive and grow and continue to do so as much as possible with out confronting something that may hinder,slow or even stop said growth. Its not that a faction is scared to fight,its the natural human response to take the easy route rather then the hard one.

This is actually a very interesting take on things, and I would agree with you on every count except the output of this "flight reaction" you speak of. As I told Momento already, Enrage can jump off a bridge for all I care. And if we're unfortunate enough to bid next to them next time? I won't show up to the defense. We aren't in this for reputation... it's not about finding an "easy route," because we seek no "route" to anything at all. So maybe you characterize it as a "flight reaction," but I see it as just refusing to legitimize being kill-farmed by a gang of trolls as a "good fight."

Ginrai - Heavens Tear wrote:

Yes, it was awesome Suddenly you didn't get a paycheck just for bullying everyone else off the map, you couldn't just put your feet up and let the money roll in and let the dominant faction just get more and more money for better and better gears, which only serves to widen the gap between them and lower factions making them more impossible to attack. So the situation just gets progressively worse.

All true, Gin. :P But for what it's worth, I'd be happy to see the 10mil system come back permanently if it existed alongside my periodic reset idea. Smaller factions could really use that money to recoup their bidding expenses and maybe even put a few mil aside for future projects or guild events. Or - and I might have done this if I led a TWing faction - use the money to help everybody pay for the charms they had to use.

But then - and this is where I need to reach into my bag of Lovely Ideas That Will Never Ever Happen(TM) - I've always thought that TW should be charmless. Or rather, charms would not tick at all during TW. This would reduce a lot of the strain on players who can't reasonably be expected to shell out 3-4mil every time they want to do TW... and even the big factions wouldn't have to worry about making back their "expenses" (which, to my recollection, was the only solid argument they had against the change to "mirage pay").