Do sins make this game more fun?

Phraze - Harshlands

So I logged on today for the first time in about 5 months. And wow. I went out for a bit of pvp, and every time I went out, I was killed in around 3-4 seconds by a sin. I barely had any time to react. This is on a vit cleric with around 8k hp, and using absolute domain. Granted my phy. def is subpar. I also noticed that there was 0 white names outside besides me. Everyone else was blue name. 0 action. I guess I know why now >.>.

ON THE OTHER hand, I figured out that because of sins, you can finish a Nirvana run in like 10 minutes. The boring pve content has been made trivial, if you can't beat something then add more APS sins and it will become easy. This means farming good gear became a bit easier, and cheaper.


So overall do you guys feel that the addition of sins has made the game more fun and dynamic? Or has it killed any meaningful pvp and made the game less fun?

I really thought about shelling out for some better updates to my gear, but now I'm not so sure anymore. The game seems to be dead, with only sins playing >.>.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Phraze - Harshlands wrote: »

So I logged on today for the first time in about 5 months. And wow. I went out for a bit of pvp, and every time I went out, I was killed in around 3-4 seconds by a sin. I barely had any time to react. This is on a vit cleric with around 8k hp, and using absolute domain. Granted my phy. def is subpar. I also noticed that there was 0 white names outside besides me. Everyone else was blue name. 0 action. I guess I know why now >.>.

ON THE OTHER hand, I figured out that because of sins, you can finish a Nirvana run in like 10 minutes. The boring pve content has been made trivial, if you can't beat something then add more APS sins and it will become easy. This means farming good gear became a bit easier, and cheaper.


So overall do you guys feel that the addition of sins has made the game more fun and dynamic? Or has it killed any meaningful pvp and made the game less fun?

I really thought about shelling out for some better updates to my gear, but now I'm not so sure anymore. The game seems to be dead, with only sins playing >.>.

It's killed PVP. And it's killed PVE. Try getting an FCC 75-85 squad as an archer, it's completely pointless. Not only are there no clerics, first off, at least on Sanct, and in TW, it's starting to come down to who has the most Sins.

I hate being killed through Absolute Domain, it seems like they do damage that bypasses AD and kills you anyway. I can AD the freaking hands in TT, but not a Sin. Lame.

TW was so laggy tonight, it wasn't even funny. 2 hours and 30 minutes of lag. >_>;

Swannx - Archosaur

Everyone has rerolled a sin by now, or at least has an alt that is a sin. You want to PvP? You make a sin for stealth. You want to PvE? You make a sin for APS. The only thing they're less useful for is TW, but a R9 sin still makes a dent.

ogunernile

you are absolutely right. sins have crippled the concept of pve being accross the board. i am a cleric too and i shelled out bucku dollars to make my cleric stand out. but even with all it's glory a sin with one piece of r9 decimates me everytime and can do the same to a barb in complete rank 9 or a gm.....no no wait, gm's can win. i think? either how i was gonna make a r9 sin but when i saw how absurd the weapon was that was the last straw. the seeker i hope is an attempt to curtail their dominance but if the cure ends to be fighting fire with fire then aren't seekers the new problem?

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

They've absolutely killed PvP by adding a godmode class.



A monkey throwing **** at his computer could kill someone as a sin



Sins are so OP that people playing them even admit that they're OP. In most games I've played where there's one class that's completely OP the people who play that class will spend all day arguing how they aren't OP, but on here even the sins are like "yea, we're OP."

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Sooo...

You're saying that having sins in the game lets you... avoid playing the game.

And lets you get equipment more easily which you can then use to... not play the game, presumably?

You know what else lets you not play the game? Not playing the game.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sooo...

You're saying that having sins in the game lets you... avoid playing the game.

And lets you get equipment more easily which you can then use to... not play the game, presumably?

You know what else lets you not play the game? Not playing the game.

I think what Vitenka is getting at is...

You should stop facerolling your keyboard in PWI, and start facerolling your keyboard in Wordpad instead.

Phraze - Harshlands

Well thanks for all the replies. This really dissapoints me. There is absolutely no way I can counter sins, absolute domain doesn't work, tree of life takes too long, I can't keep up plume shell forever, and those stealth detection pots are expensive and honestly kinda pointless.

And I'm kinda surprised because I felt like ppl would come here and say that it wasn't really that bad, and that sins aren't as good as I had assumed and that I was just needlessly QQ'ing. Guess not.

Anyway I guess I won't be spending any money on this game and just use it as a way to chat up old friends .

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

I am probably one of the last people that should be giving advice about the pvp aspect of this game.

However aren't there certain apothecary items that will make you immune to damage for an X amount of time, better yet a apo that greatly reduces the damage you take, or even an apo that reduces the attack speed? (I do know there is a genie skill that will do that) I know that does little good when you may not know a sin is coming after you, but if you do know pop the apo as soon as you see a spark/sin come your way, and then hope like hell that you can turn around and stun lock him, or her.

Though obviously that is no easy task, and that only bms might even have a chance at pulling something like this off. Contrary to what popular belief seems to be... they are not invincible especially in a mass pvp setting. They are just extremely hard to counter effectively all the time. Which obviously does indeed suck really badly. Perhaps there is a way for every class to counter them... half-assedly... it's just that no one either thought of it... or just finds it to be ridiculously expensive to do. Though obviously I can be wrong, sins are very powerful, pve, and pvp. Especially 1 on 1 fights.

perhaps I am just overly... optimistic about their being a way to stop the pwnage of a sin... so they too wont get nerfed badly. =x

Pve + pvp 1vs1... aps > pretty much anything else.

Mass pvp it just levels the playing field a small bit. (at least imo)

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am probably one of the last people that should be giving advice about the pvp aspect of this game.

However aren't there certain apothecary items that will make you immune to damage for an X amount of time, better yet a apo that greatly reduces the damage you take, or even an apo that reduces the attack speed? (I do know there is a genie skill that will do that) I know that does little good when you may not know a sin is coming after you, but if you do know pop the apo as soon as you see a spark/sin come your way, and then hope like hell that you can turn around and stun lock him.

Though obviously that is no easy task, and that only bms might even have a chance at pulling something like this off. Contrary to what popular belief seems to be... they are not invincible especially in a mass pvp setting. They are just extremely hard to counter effectively all the time. Which obviously does indeed suck really badly. Perhaps there is a way for every class to counter them... half-assedly... it's just that no one either thought of it... or just finds it to be ridiculously expensive to do. Though obviously I can be wrong, sins are very powerful, pve, and pvp. Especially 1 on 1 fights.

You can't use apothecary when stunned, and a sin can keep you stunlocked for a very long time out of stealth. Only thing you can really do is absolute domain but that only works once every three minutes.


And even if you do manage to get out of the stun lock and you manage to use that apothecary....



Sin force stealths, waits for his cooldowns, and then does it again.



One of the things that makes sins OP is that this is the only game I have ever played that had a stealth feature, where it was so powerful. On other games the closer a sin gets he becomes more visible, or the stealth has a short duration, or there are skills/items to counter it.

On here? A level 72 sin can't be seen by a level 101 of any class other than sins. Only way to have a chance is to use a detection pot, which are expensive and hard to get. Of course using it means you have to know that the guy is there in the first place. And if you do use it and you do see him, well great, too bad he'll just stun and **** you seeing as how you're now unable to use irongaurd/power sutra

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

You can't use apothecary when stunned, and a sin can keep you stunlocked for a very long time out of stealth. Only thing you can really do is absolute domain but that only works once every three minutes.


And even if you do manage to get out of the stun lock and you manage to use that apothecary....



Sin force stealths, waits for his cooldowns, and then does it again.

Yea I don't pvp much, and hmm there is only one skill that I know off (on sins regular skill list) that stuns/sleeps 100% of the time, and it doesn't last that long. Only 3 seconds. (5 max with demon) ... (edit) Ok I see a second one that stuns for 5 seconds at level 10. (6 at demon)... which is obviously really deadly coming from a an assassin with insane aps/refines.

I actually took that into account... that's kind of why I said 'hope like hell you can turn around and stun lock him'... (or her) ... obviously before they force stealth/rebuild sparks to pwn you into last week. =x

As I said won't be an easy task to complete, obviously the assassins are something to steer clear of. =x

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

lol sins have a LOT of immobilizes, they have every immobilize skill in the game as far as I'm aware, sleep, stun, freeze and seal.


5 second sleep
4 second seal to use along with their 9 second freeze
3 second stun teleport skill
5 second stun

and that's at level 10


only ones with a chance to fail are the seal and immobilize, which have a 95% success chance.

And when you throw in a good genie with high STR and occult ice, as well as level 10 skills...


You can be stuck sitting there with no choice but to take the hits for 15 seconds or more, if the occult ice FAILS.

XxKarleyxx - Lost City

Interesting question

vristion

Not to mention sins attack is gained from dex points, which also increases crit rate...imagine that

Veonita - Dreamweaver

Can't win them? Join them.

I love my sin xD was cleric before.

Weow - Archosaur

You have been killed by P-34324237482374823472834

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but sins' stealth-lags excite me.
Not really.

Wolfixxxx - Lost City

you guys are forgetting psychics... a very very very underatted and misused class.

with highly upgraded gear a psy is pretty much on equal level with a sin in terms of OPness if the psy actually knows what he is doing. the problem is most psys have no clue on how to play the class where as sins can just get 5 aps and face roll the keyboard. thats the main problem with sins, any jackass can get 5 aps and roll everyone. psys have the same potential, but u have to actually have half a brain to use them.

the way i see it? psys are more OP then sins when they have maxed refined gear and know what they are doing. by alot. you wont even be able to atk them most of the time.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

on here even the sins are like "yea, we're OP."

(b:shutup) OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP (b:shutup)
Even assassin say : " Yes, we need a nerf. "

Longknife - Harshlands

Phraze - Harshlands wrote: »

So I logged on today for the first time in about 5 months. And wow. I went out for a bit of pvp, and every time I went out, I was killed in around 3-4 seconds by a sin. I barely had any time to react. This is on a vit cleric with around 8k hp, and using absolute domain. Granted my phy. def is subpar. I also noticed that there was 0 white names outside besides me. Everyone else was blue name. 0 action. I guess I know why now >.>.

ON THE OTHER hand, I figured out that because of sins, you can finish a Nirvana run in like 10 minutes. The boring pve content has been made trivial, if you can't beat something then add more APS sins and it will become easy. This means farming good gear became a bit easier, and cheaper.


So overall do you guys feel that the addition of sins has made the game more fun and dynamic? Or has it killed any meaningful pvp and made the game less fun?

I really thought about shelling out for some better updates to my gear, but now I'm not so sure anymore. The game seems to be dead, with only sins playing >.>.

Yesterday I spent 20 minutes running in circles and waiting for a sin to jump me and get his revenge, only to have him immediately give up the moment I hit Expel. Then I waited another 10 before I concluded he left.


Man, was that ever fun.

Sthenith - Dreamweaver

I LOVE to play my cleric, but i rolled a sin when they came out and slowly started playing till she was around lvl 72.
I left the game for 7 months, came back and now she's my main toon.

I still love to play my cleric, but sin...owns.

I chose a PvE server because in nearly every mmorpg i've played, one class dominates all others and assassin like toons just dominate the game in every way possible. This game isn't an exception to that rule.

If you think that PvP against a sin is pointless or not worth it : play PvE.
If you like to PvP but don't want to go up against them : play another game without sins.

As for the PvE part of the game i can say this :

- playing a Sin is fun. They're absolutely not immortal, but it's fun to be able to do a lot of things.
- don't expect to be able to do the same things as a sin when you play another class, with maybe the exception of an APS BM.
- Think about what you want to do/reach in the game. Want a high lvl toon ? All classes can do that. Want nice gear ? Again, all classes can get it.

Sins are not immortal. True, they ARE kind of powerfull, but face it, some other classes are too. It all depends on playstyle and gear.

I'm glad i don't much like PvPing outside of an occasional TW. And if you truly HATE going against sins or dislike them in general : don't PvP. Do not go to TW. Or just play on a PvE server until the players realize that by choosing nothing BUT sins is pointless when there's nothing to do.

So overall do you guys feel that the addition of sins has made the game more fun and dynamic? Or has it killed any meaningful pvp and made the game less fun?

PvE wise, more dynamic i would say, PvP wise, dead.


Lastly, let me give an example :

In one of the previous games i've played, assasins dominated all others for quite a while in every 'war" (pvp game). In the end, no classes BUT them appeared in those wars.
End result ? : No healers, no wizards, no warriors, just assassins in wars. Wars died out, loads of people left the servers....and in the end the devs decided to finally change a LOT of things to make it balanced once again or their game would be as dead as a dodo.

Burnout - Harshlands

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Yesterday I spent 20 minutes running in circles and waiting for a sin to jump me and get his revenge, only to have him immediately give up the moment I hit Expel. Then I waited another 10 before I concluded he left.


Man, was that ever fun.

Just a question. What if you aren't a psychic w/ multiple souls up? And you weren't just sitting in west arch with your hand on that expel button WAITING for a sin to pop so you can hit expel as soon as he tries to gank you? Result would have been insta-death.

Im a wiz w/ close to 9k p. def, 6.3k hp, and I died in under 3 seconds to a R8 sin even with barb buff on. That's just ridiculous.

The sin is so OP, if you manage to get ganked by a sin and NOT die, and somehow get away, it actually feels like a freakin victory. N/M that you will never kill the sin. Just not dying makes me giddy like I somehow beat the system, like I stole a child's candy bar and got away with it. How is that not gamebreaking?

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

The sin is so OP, if you manage to get ganked by a sin and NOT die, it actually feels like a freakin victory. N/M that you will never kill the sin. Just not dying makes me giddy like I somehow beat the system or something.

It feel like you just cheated death (b:chuckle) that usually unavoidable . . .

Longknife - Harshlands

Wolfixxxx - Lost City wrote: »

you guys are forgetting psychics... a very very very underatted and misused class.

with highly upgraded gear a psy is pretty much on equal level with a sin in terms of OPness if the psy actually knows what he is doing. the problem is most psys have no clue on how to play the class where as sins can just get 5 aps and face roll the keyboard. thats the main problem with sins, any jackass can get 5 aps and roll everyone. psys have the same potential, but u have to actually have half a brain to use them.

the way i see it? psys are more OP then sins when they have maxed refined gear and know what they are doing. by alot. you wont even be able to atk them most of the time.

Very true, however there's two things that keep Psys balanced:

1) Farming on a Psy isn't crazy-easy. Therefore there are less Psys running around with +12 gear than there are sins. Sins with 5aps and +12 daggers are....everywhere.

2) We actually have classes that counter us. Any class that can heal itself (Clerics and Mystics) is an absolute pain for a Psy to fight. We have outstanding defense and outstanding offense, but our defense is on a time limit. When the opponent can just heal through that entire time limit, then we're in trouble. I can also promise you that a r9 +12 Wizzie or Archer would be more than capable of killing a Psy; wizzies just hit god damn hard with a +12 r9 weapon and archers are able to purge off Psychic Will. The only classes that I would imagine absolutely struggle to kill Psys at end-game would be barbs (no DD while the Psy DD would be amazing) and sins (at this point, all the soulforce shields would **** a sin over) and MAYBE venos.
The issue with sins is that....who the hell is their counter? I'll tell you who: Psys and barbs. However, as a Psy I can tell you that sins do NOT enjoy dying. They've all got egos out the *** and they cry like mad if you shatter them. The result is that by killing a sin, all you've done is gained yourself a personal stalker for the next hour. This means you can't fight ANYONE or the sin will jump you. So yay: 30 minutes of running in circles with your mouse hovering over Psy Will/Expel. That's our reward for countering them. And barbs? They can't do @%&$ against a sin. Maybe there are some barbs that a sin struggles to kill, but the barb isn't exactly amazing at killing a sin before he stealths, either. Making a barb one of the counter classes to sin is like assigning someone in an electric wheelchair to catch a cheetah. And personally I know several sins who can take down a cata barb in 3-5 seconds flat.



Sins need another counter class and their farming ability needs balance.

Longknife - Harshlands

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Just a question. What if you aren't a psychic w/ multiple souls up? And you weren't just sitting in west arch with your hand on that expel button WAITING for a sin to pop so you can hit expel as soon as he tries to gank you? Result would have been insta-death.

Im a wiz w/ close to 9k p. def, 6.3k hp, and I died in under 3 seconds to a R8 sin even with barb buff on. That's just ridiculous.

The sin is so OP, if you manage to get ganked by a sin and NOT die, and somehow get away, it actually feels like a freakin victory. N/M that you will never kill the sin. Just not dying makes me giddy like I somehow beat the system, like I stole a child's candy bar and got away with it. How is that not gamebreaking?

Yeah, that's just it.

I still PK regularly because I play the sin's worst nightmare. And even THEN it's still about a 50-50 on the win-loss ratio. Sins also have a bad habit of feeding off of others. By this I mean, if one jumps me and keeps dying, his reaction will be to simply wait for someone ELSE to jump me, take all the bullets and eat some of my chi, THEN jump me. Luckily many are stupid so sometimes I get like four sins on me while in Psy Will and then I just AOE away.

I dunno how on earth they expect a Wizard to beat a sin. They can just stun you guys and melee like mad.
And that's part of my point with my last post. If you give every class r9 +12, yeah Psys are god damn annoying and I'm sure sins really start to struggle with us then, but we also have direct counters and other classes are capable of killing us. Sin? Wtf is a barb supposed to do to beat a sin? Or a wizard? Or a veno? Clerics? Any archers think they could beat a sin? Hell, I've seen a r9 BM struggle with a r9 sin. They still remain OP for half the classes because the problem is that they're free to stun and melee the **** out of those classes before they even have the chance to react. THAT'S what makes them OP.

LeiMai - Raging Tide

Maybe part of the problem is that for the most part, demon sins are idiot proof. Well, thats been proven wrong but they are still crazy easy to play (I'm sage).

It seems to be that other classes are more complex, and people undervalue them. I can't speak for PvP at least, but in PvE players are a problem too. They choose not to take skilled arcanes etc on runs. They abuse people who aren't APS.

People are APS snobs even to their friends, it happened to an arcane friend of mine the other day when I know shes awesome and one of my favorite people to run with. It was over FC, and she is way more valuable in there (damage wise and usefulness) than the person who was refusing to accept her into the squad in the first place!

I understand sins are pretty epic, but so are other classes when you know how to use them. I can think of people who are more useful in an instance from every class than alot of the sins I know (of).

Plus, they are hella squishy. And we need to wait and see how the seeker does. I was playing around at PQ1 yesterday with mine, with that vortex AOE at level 1. Doing 3x as much damage as my normal attacks, constantly, to everything around me. Now level that up to 10 (just leveled it up, can't wait to see what it does now!) and the range grows with each level, as does the damage.

Put that up in TW, stick your clerics and squishies inside...and see what it does to sins that try to get close. It is supposed to be constant damage, so I would love to see what it does in PvP at level 10/11 with a really good weapon, not some noob lvl 70 sword.

Wolfixxxx - Lost City

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Very true, however there's two things that keep Psys balanced:

1) Farming on a Psy isn't crazy-easy. Therefore there are less Psys running around with +12 gear than there are sins. Sins with 5aps and +12 daggers are....everywhere.

2) We actually have classes that counter us. Any class that can heal itself (Clerics and Mystics) is an absolute pain for a Psy to fight. We have outstanding defense and outstanding offense, but our defense is on a time limit. When the opponent can just heal through that entire time limit, then we're in trouble. I can also promise you that a r9 +12 Wizzie or Archer would be more than capable of killing a Psy; wizzies just hit god damn hard with a +12 r9 weapon and archers are able to purge off Psychic Will. The only classes that I would imagine absolutely struggle to kill Psys at end-game would be barbs (no DD while the Psy DD would be amazing) and sins (at this point, all the soulforce shields would **** a sin over) and MAYBE venos.
The issue with sins is that....who the hell is their counter? I'll tell you who: Psys and barbs. However, as a Psy I can tell you that sins do NOT enjoy dying. They've all got egos out the *** and they cry like mad if you shatter them. The result is that by killing a sin, all you've done is gained yourself a personal stalker for the next hour. This means you can't fight ANYONE or the sin will jump you. So yay: 30 minutes of running in circles with your mouse hovering over Psy Will/Expel. That's our reward for countering them. And barbs? They can't do @%&$ against a sin. Maybe there are some barbs that a sin struggles to kill, but the barb isn't exactly amazing at killing a sin before he stealths, either. Making a barb one of the counter classes to sin is like assigning someone in an electric wheelchair to catch a cheetah. And personally I know several sins who can take down a cata barb in 3-5 seconds flat.



Sins need another counter class and their farming ability needs balance.

to your 2nd quote, any class that can heal themselves are weaked by disturbed soul and diminised vigor. making there healing skills not nearly as effective. also if there busy healing themselves then id assume they are not atking u. and if there not atking u then u obviously have the upper hand. not only that but psys also have sage bubble. so honestly i dont see how clerics are much of a threat to a psy given what a psy has at there disposal.

wizzies on the other hand i can understand. but you can pretty much disturbed soul and land slide most wizzards atks...

vristion

Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »

All that jazz.

In most MMOs, even with one dominateing 1v1 class, all the other still were able to use survival skills effectivelly... here seing r8/9 clerics still get owned while in plumeshell...kinda defeats the purpose of having the skill... just one example, i thought you could relate to being a has been cleric yourself.


And your solution to everything was a bit self absorbed, and pathetic...


Ok everyone that really is not interested in the sin class should either roll one or quit the game...kkthanxbaib:bye

TigerLily - Lost City

LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »

Maybe part of the problem is that for the most part, demon sins are idiot proof. Well, thats been proven wrong but they are still crazy easy to play (I'm sage).

I fail to see how Demon sins are more idiot proof than Sage ones in PvP.

For pve, the only thing less idiot proof with a Sage sin would be that you have to use Wind Shield in between the spark macros to reach 5.0...and thats really complicated b:chuckle

Jellytoast - Sanctuary

Ahh, sins. As a cleric I have soo many problems with them. I actually made a sin myself, but haven't really gotten around to leveling it. But they don't get any skill that casts a negative effect on them except chill of the deep. Every other class seems to have something like that. And even a sin can keep me stun locked longer than a bm, which is messed up.

I was in a tw last night against a faction with mainly high level sins. I was so stressed because I couldn't do anythign but walk out and die. They'd keep on me till expel wore off, and if I tried to fly away, guess who pulled out a bow and STILL killed me? It really should not be like this in what's supposed to be a balanced game. Every class should be able to beat every other class without the use of apoth and genies. But nope, not here. Clerics HAVE to use apoth and genies (and I'm sure others do too) to even have a CHANCE at living. And because of that, I decline every pvp offer I get that comes from a sin. I just won't pvp them. I'll fight any other class because I know either of us could win. Fighting a sin is already decided for someone like a cleric.

HeavensRage - Raging Tide

@ Thread title: No.

They killed PvP.

Still waiting for that "game balancing" PWI devs were talking about in the videos and interviews.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

How to resolve the problem? Give players 30 extra detection levels.