Balancing of the game

Susamajii - Lost City

Well tbh I haven't read any of the threads on this forum in many months, but seeing as I am completely bored at the moment, I figured no harm in making a thread before i log off. Now this might be the wrong area to post the thread but who cares really? These ideas may also have already been stated elsewhere but as I stated, I don't read these forums anymore.

Now what most people at least on my server are sick of besides pretty much everything in the game, is the imbalance between APS and everything else, moreover just an imbalance between sins and.. everything else.

Now you can't really do what is needed which would be completely removing tideborns from existence, seeing as Assassins are probably your single greatest money making abomination next to packs. So let me throw out an idea or two that might help in balancing them out with the rest of the game.

1. Make reflect skills work in PVP. (IE: Bramble, Bramble Hood, Demon Roar, Alpha Male, Reflective Aura, etc.) What does this do? Well for starters let's see a sin triple spark on a BM and try to kill him when he is brambled. 90% of these sins will drop over dead before they even bypass the charm. Or let's see them try to kill a veno through bramble hood (yes they can do this, and easily) they would die in 2 seconds trying this **** which they shouldn't be able to do in the first place.

2. Make KNOCKBACK skills work in pvp. Now I use to play a game that I won't mention the name of but in that game knockback was possibly the most OP annoying BS ever but that was because it was implemented on every attack of the archer class due to the bow they used. Now just using knockback skills (IE: mage phoenix, archer knockback arrow/knockback aoe, barb slam, etc) these skills have a cool-down so this will not be as broken as the example i gave. What would this do? Well sins are a melee class knocking them back means they can't hit you at least for a short period of time.

((**EDIT**: This would also require a change in the definition of anti-stun to make it resistant to knockback as well as other movement impairments))

These are just two ideas I thought of about balancing the game in general. Now I will give one last idea in balancing the Assassin class specifically, and for the record I was discussing this with one of the top 3 sins on Lost City server (hint: he is 104) and he agreed completely that his class NEEDS to be nerfed. Now here is the idea..

*Change the Forced Stealth skill to costing 1 spark to use instead of giving one spark when you use it.

Simple enough, no?

Well I really have nothing else to add atm. Flame on.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »

1. Make reflect skills work in PVP. (IE: Bramble, Bramble Hood, Demon Roar, Alpha Male, Reflective Aura, etc.) What does this do? Well for starters let's see a sin triple spark on a BM and try to kill him when he is brambled. 90% of these sins will drop over dead before they even bypass the charm. Or let's see them try to kill a veno through bramble hood (yes they can do this, and easily) they would die in 2 seconds trying this **** which they shouldn't be able to do in the first place.

What would also happen with this is that all of the close range classes would be pretty much useless in group PvP: just bramble all of your party and anyone who attacks you from close range dies, unless they purify you. Not to mention that there would be people who would level venomancer alts just to bramble their mains, which would cause even more problems.

2. Make KNOCKBACK skills work in pvp. Now I use to play a game that I won't mention the name of but in that game knockback was possibly the most OP annoying BS ever but that was because it was implemented on every attack of the archer class due to the bow they used. Now just using knockback skills (IE: mage phoenix, archer knockback arrow/knockback aoe, barb slam, etc) these skills have a cool-down so this will not be as broken as the example i gave. What would this do? Well sins are a melee class knocking them back means they can't hit you at least for a short period of time.

Again, this is not really a good idea. A max range Archer would be practically untouchable with knockback arrow and Wingspan. Especially since Demon Wingspan casts Winged Shell on the Archer.

*Change the Forced Stealth skill to costing 1 spark to use instead of giving one spark when you use it.

Simple enough, no?

Well I really have nothing else to add atm. Flame on.

And that would pretty much make it useless in PvP. Not to mention that its function as a final safety guard in PvE would also be taken away. So it'd effectively be useless as anything but a tool to reset mobs that accidentally aggroed you.

Malkomod - Harshlands

First, I want to say that your post isn't like other because you explain what you think.

I feel that way too. Seriously, they should do other things than ''minor localisation changes'' in patch. Some compagny, do not fear nerfing and improving things. A serious compagny should do it.

I agree that reflective spell and knockback skills should be working in pvp. This is none sense that they work in pve but not pvp. That would give a chance to some character.

Susamajii - Lost City

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

QQ

Anyone else notice first person to respond was a sin and it was QQ? lol

Vorhs - Lost City

I would say the only fix i like is to make force stealth 1-spark-cost and not 1-spark-give...

For everything else i think assassins are somehow balanced in 100+ PvP, they only are incredibly advantaged in 1-100 pvp.


The real, giant, huge, hard to believe UNBALANCE is in PvE.

Sins and BMs MUST BE nerfed in PvE

A 5aps character can deal around 4x the dps other classes can deal on same gear power, wich is absurd:

a squad of full 5aps can deal same dps of 20 wizards, and in terms of time they can kill bosses 20 times faster, and this game is a game in wich bosses have endless HP, so the longer they take to die, the higher is the unbalance

Susamajii - Lost City

I added in that anti-stun should be changed to resist knockback as well I forgot to put it in the first time.

Bramble can be debuffed so this isn't as OP as the stupid sin/psy buffs that can't be debuffed. So this is not as big an issue as one might think.

Ruvil - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

And that would pretty much make it useless in PvP. Not to mention that its function as a final safety guard in PvE would also be taken away. So it'd effectively be useless as anything but a tool to reset mobs that accidentally aggroed you.

ohnoez!!! my WoG costs 1 spark, makes it useless in PVP b:cry if you're a sin who is out of chi.... er yea <_< especially an interval sin >_>

the bramble idea sounds a bit too powerful vs sin since they basically wouldn't be able to attack or theyd have to use CV bow/genie purge (lol yea right ._.)/make friends w/ venos. I really like the idea (suggested elsewhere) of adding a +detection level genie skill with a decently long cd/energy cost.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »

ohnoez!!! my WoG costs 1 spark, makes it useless in PVP b:cry if you're a sin who is out of chi.... er yea <_< especially an interval sin >_

The situations that you use WoG and Shadow Escape are rather different.

Of course, apparently the most common way of using Shadow Escape is to trick a person into using all of their skills and chi, then Shadow Escaping and returning with full chi while the genie skills and whatnot of the opponent are still in cooldown, which for some reason seems to make a lot of people rage.

Shadow Escape, as it was put into the game, was intended as just what it says: an escape measure. Making it cost 1 spark would limit the options of an assassin by quite a lot. Even if you say that an Assassin has a lot of chi to spend, if you've just used Inner Harmony for a good combo, such as Power Dash and triple spark, you're looking at either hitting it out until you got enough chi, or using Rising Dragon Strike.

You don't need to make Shadow Escape cost a spark, you could just take away the 1 spark that it gives. That would make it pretty fair.

Especially since the likelihood that you need Shadow Escape and just happen to have 1 spark at hand is kinda low, since you'd only really use Shadow Escape in PvE as a final measure.

Just because people keep falling for the same strategy over and over and over again doesn't make a class overpowered. Really, no one is forcing you to use all of your genie skills and chi if you know the sin will just Shadow Escape out. And heck, if you know the sin is strong enough to Shadow Escape out of your best assault, you've already lost so stop complaining.

Anyone else notice first person to respond was a sin and it was QQ? lol

Anyone else notice how much the above remark makes the OP look like a flamebaiter?

Susamajii - Lost City

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

The situations that you use WoG and Shadow Escape are rather different.

Of course, apparently the most common way of using Shadow Escape is to trick a person into using all of their skills and chi, then Shadow Escaping and returning with full chi while the genie skills and whatnot of the opponent are still in cooldown, which for some reason seems to make a lot of people rage.

Shadow Escape, as it was put into the game, was intended as just what it says: an escape measure. Making it cost 1 spark would limit the options of an assassin by quite a lot. Even if you say that an Assassin has a lot of chi to spend, if you've just used Inner Harmony for a good combo, such as Power Dash and triple spark, you're looking at either hitting it out until you got enough chi, or using Rising Dragon Strike.

You don't need to make Shadow Escape cost a spark, you could just take away the 1 spark that it gives. That would make it pretty fair.

Especially since the likelihood that you need Shadow Escape and just happen to have 1 spark at hand is kinda low, since you'd only really use Shadow Escape in PvE as a final measure.

Just because people keep falling for the same strategy over and over and over again doesn't make a class overpowered. Really, no one is forcing you to use all of your genie skills and chi if you know the sin will just Shadow Escape out. And heck, if you know the sin is strong enough to Shadow Escape out of your best assault, you've already lost so stop complaining.

So making a sin actually have to think about what they do rather than abuse an OP skill making their class slightly more difficult to play and balancing the game is a bad idea how? Oh just because you are a sin and it would make it less fun for you? QQ moar.

Happy_Killer - Harshlands

Anybody with two braincells to rub together could tell you that Assassins are one of the most broken things in this entire game. I won't lie. They are. The ability to both Stealth AND 5aps, just kills everything from PvP to PvE, and it's generally just plain annoying.

I'm hoping and praying that these two new classes kicks the living **** out of the Assassins. (It appears that the Seekers were specifically made to negate the effects of Psychics' Voodoo abilities...so watch it out there fellow Psychics!) I keep warning them that they're going to get EXACTLY what's coming to them. I just hope I'm right.

I mean seriously, before you Assassins came out, the scariest thing you could go up against was a Charmed Barb with tt99. Now we've got all of you sins running around with Rank 9, and not a whole lot of people enjoy being stealthr@ped by someone who could have killed them just as easily if they COULD have been seen. It's rather pathetic.

It's a good thing Seekers can't get 5aps..... >.>

PirateKitty - Harshlands

So it's fair for a sin to drop out of stealth with a massive attack that gives you zero chance of responding too, but unfair for someone to have a reflect buff? You can see bramble on a person, if you still attack your mistake (if it worked in pvp) . Bramble hood does have some effect in pvp, doesn't reflect but the damage reduction does work (or it was a glitch either way the mage attacking did a wtf when I didn't fall over dead, or even a sizable dent in my hp).

Giving non-sins the ability to raise their detection lvl would go a long way as well, aside from using a pot and hope your looking the correct direction. Certain skills that the new classes have do not have comparable skills to everyone else. A lot of skills have another that does a similar thing, like Ironwood scarab and Shield Break, bleed effects on pets and Barbs, etc.

IMO they wanted everyone to want to lvl a fish, they made them more attractive to players then the old classes. Consider how many quests and how long it takes you to lvl 1-20 on an original class and on a tideborn. A tideborn can lvl to 20 in 1 day if not less, where as the other classes it takes roughly 2 days if you push it.

Naivety - Harshlands

OP makes some good points.... that all fall flat on the reasons everyone has given.

The thing I would say about Shadow Escape is it should be made like the Veno Soul Transfusion skill. I.E Itl take a spark if you have any chi, but doesnt need a spark to be cast.

Thatd balence the chi gain problem, and not reduce the use of it as an escape measure.

---As in, if a sin dissapears and runs off, you dont care do you? Really? Its the fact that they bounce back out and then roflrape you AFTER thats the issue

Before OP flames me with "lolsinQQingcoswewantthemlessOP" Look at the core connect BS, I have a 100 Cleric and other mage type characters, I know how OP sins are from both sides.

Quilue - Sanctuary

You might want to rethink the knock back. This was brought up on archer forums a long time ago, and a lot of people agreed that aerial PvP would be almost impossible with knock back. Melees would never catch up.

Susamajii - Lost City

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

OP makes some good points.... that all fall flat on the reasons everyone has given.

The thing I would say about Shadow Escape is it should be made like the Veno Soul Transfusion skill. I.E Itl take a spark if you have any chi, but doesnt need a spark to be cast.

Thatd balence the chi gain problem, and not reduce the use of it as an escape measure.

---As in, if a sin dissapears and runs off, you dont care do you? Really? Its the fact that they bounce back out and then roflrape you AFTER thats the issue

Before OP flames me with "lolsinQQingcoswewantthemlessOP" Look at the core connect BS, I have a 100 Cleric and other mage type characters, I know how OP sins are from both sides.

I don't see my point of knockback or bramble falling flat on anyone's reasons. That would almost immediately balance the game. Only an idiot is going to go full out APS on a person with bramble. The buff only last 10 minutes (unless sage version) so it's not like the other buffs that last 30+. I really don't understand why reflect doesn't work in pvp. The new Psychic reflect works why doesn't the old veno bramble? So it makes it difficult to kill someone but honestly should it be possible for a sin to drop a BM with 20k HP in pmarrow with full buffs roughly 26k pdef in about 8 seconds? If that's not unbalanced and you find this completely reasonable then by all means continue on in your land of face rolling on keyboards and being 1337 cuz your class is stupidly OP.

ViciousMinx - Dreamweaver

Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »

Well tbh I haven't read any of the threads on this forum in many months, but seeing as I am completely bored at the moment, I figured no harm in making a thread before i log off. Now this might be the wrong area to post the thread but who cares really? These ideas may also have already been stated elsewhere but as I stated, I don't read these forums anymore.

Now what most people at least on my server are sick of besides pretty much everything in the game, is the imbalance between APS and everything else, moreover just an imbalance between sins and.. everything else.

Now you can't really do what is needed which would be completely removing tideborns from existence, seeing as Assassins are probably your single greatest money making abomination next to packs. So let me throw out an idea or two that might help in balancing them out with the rest of the game.

1. Make reflect skills work in PVP. (IE: Bramble, Bramble Hood, Demon Roar, Alpha Male, Reflective Aura, etc.) What does this do? Well for starters let's see a sin triple spark on a BM and try to kill him when he is brambled. 90% of these sins will drop over dead before they even bypass the charm. Or let's see them try to kill a veno through bramble hood (yes they can do this, and easily) they would die in 2 seconds trying this **** which they shouldn't be able to do in the first place.

2. Make KNOCKBACK skills work in pvp. Now I use to play a game that I won't mention the name of but in that game knockback was possibly the most OP annoying BS ever but that was because it was implemented on every attack of the archer class due to the bow they used. Now just using knockback skills (IE: mage phoenix, archer knockback arrow/knockback aoe, barb slam, etc) these skills have a cool-down so this will not be as broken as the example i gave. What would this do? Well sins are a melee class knocking them back means they can't hit you at least for a short period of time.

((**EDIT**: This would also require a change in the definition of anti-stun to make it resistant to knockback as well as other movement impairments))

These are just two ideas I thought of about balancing the game in general. Now I will give one last idea in balancing the Assassin class specifically, and for the record I was discussing this with one of the top 3 sins on Lost City server (hint: he is 104) and he agreed completely that his class NEEDS to be nerfed. Now here is the idea..

*Change the Forced Stealth skill to costing 1 spark to use instead of giving one spark when you use it.

Simple enough, no?

Well I really have nothing else to add atm. Flame on.

+1
Great ideas! Others may not like em cause it will make them have to work a lil harder to kill but it will defiantly balance things out. There needs to be something done before the new expansion throws it out of whack even more.

Santouryu - Raging Tide

I think that the Forced stealth change would be reasonable but as for knockback and bramble that would kill PvP to me.

Okeano - Harshlands

Funny, you think the ideas you have actually matters in terms of future game development/changes, and bother to "suggest" them on this forum, which you also think the devs read/cares about.

sleepcat

If I remember correctly, one of the new classes will have a knockback skill that works in PvP. So the real argument for that now is whether the old classes will have their knockback skills activating in PvP as well.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Funny, you think the ideas you have actually matters in terms of future game development/changes, and bother to "suggest" them on this forum, which you also think the devs read/cares about.

The only thing we can really blame here is the horrible mismanagement of PW by PWE. And even then, we know it all falls onto deaf ears. They're too busy counting their money and going to the bank to even bother listening.

KAZMOENEEK - Heavens Tear

shadow escape should be a 1 spark and not a spark give..it should be a skill to use wisely.

Susamajii - Lost City

KAZMOENEEK - Heavens Tear wrote: »

shadow escape should be a 1 spark and not a spark give..it should be a skill to use wisely.

This is exactly my point. The idea of what the skill is supposed to be used for is fine it's just the fact that it comes with no consequence and instead gives benefits. I do like the suggestion that it should be like soul transfusion as opposed to taking one spark everytime but I still think that would be slightly unbalanced but a good suggestion nonetheless. But as previously stated our ideas never get implemented by these jerk offs.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

So why all this sin rage Susa? Did you 1v1 Cheze or Rinc. They're so broken it's not even funny.

Susamajii - Lost City

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

So why all this sin rage Susa? Did you 1v1 Cheze or Rinc. They're so broken it's not even funny.

Not really rage just was bored and find this game rather ridiculous watching sins pop out and kill ppl without them even having time to domain.

But watching cheze and Rinc **** every other sin on the server besides Kitamura is highly entertaining.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »

So making a sin actually have to think about what they do rather than abuse an OP skill making their class slightly more difficult to play and balancing the game is a bad idea how? Oh just because you are a sin and it would make it less fun for you? QQ moar.

Um, you know, I do have a level 92 Archer.

And you're stuck up on the PvP aspect of Shadow Escape. It does have quite some use in PvE and your suggestion would kill that use. If you got aggro and get debuffed by a boss and need to shift aggro to someone else, you use Shadow Escape or you die. Now, if Shadow Escape suddenly required 1 spark to cast, you wouldn't be able to do that, because keeping 1 spark on reserve at all times kinda means you're not going to be triple sparking too often, unless you have 4 or 5 aps.

Also, making Shadow Escape cost 1 spark would limit the PvP options a sin has, since you'd have to make sure your enemy dies in that one combo you pull off. And with everyone running around with Ironguards and AD, it's not exactly likely that you're gonna pull it off. And if you don't, you're as good as dead.

All I'm seeing here is a high level barb who's angry about constantly being beaten by sins who Shadow Escape when you AD or IG them.

As I said, I don't mind if the skill wouldn't give a spark, that's not really a crucial part of the skill. But making it cost a spark would just about make it useless.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Totally for Shadow Escape working like Soul Transfusion.

As for Bramble, maybe reduce the reflect in PvP by 50%? That way demon bramble would only reflect about 40% of damage back.

Edit: As for bramble hood.... idk I've always found 200% reflect + 90% damage reduction + no penalty to self except for spark use kind of... insane..

And knockback... maybe make it not work in the air aaaaaand like the OP said, make anti-stun work against knockback.

Just trying to tweak ideas

Susamajii - Lost City

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um, you know, I do have a level 92 Archer.

And you're stuck up on the PvP aspect of Shadow Escape. It does have quite some use in PvE and your suggestion would kill that use. If you got aggro and get debuffed by a boss and need to shift aggro to someone else, you use Shadow Escape or you die. Now, if Shadow Escape suddenly required 1 spark to cast, you wouldn't be able to do that, because keeping 1 spark on reserve at all times kinda means you're not going to be triple sparking too often, unless you have 4 or 5 aps.

Also, making Shadow Escape cost 1 spark would limit the PvP options a sin has, since you'd have to make sure your enemy dies in that one combo you pull off. And with everyone running around with Ironguards and AD, it's not exactly likely that you're gonna pull it off. And if you don't, you're as good as dead.

All I'm seeing here is a high level barb who's angry about constantly being beaten by sins who Shadow Escape when you AD or IG them.

As I said, I don't mind if the skill wouldn't give a spark, that's not really a crucial part of the skill. But making it cost a spark would just about make it useless.

Nah there's only maybe 5 sins that could solo kill me and that's if I wasn't paying attention.. and 3 of them are in my guild. And no my suggestion would not make shadow escape useless it would just make the player actually have to think about what they are doing as opposed to rolling their face on the keyboard. God you act like having to actually think about using skills wisely is a bad thing, seems like anything said about your OP class being less OP just makes you QQ about it so continue on QQing honestly no one cares about you sins QQing about being less OP. You need to be nerfed /thread.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also, making Shadow Escape cost 1 spark would limit the PvP options a sin has, since you'd have to make sure your enemy dies in that one combo you pull off. And with everyone running around with Ironguards and AD, it's not exactly likely that you're gonna pull it off. And if you don't, you're as good as dead.

Either you kill it in one go or run in to the SZ or just out of the way just like other classes. Sins already have the surprise element, why should they be able get away differently than other classes?

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »

Nah there's only maybe 5 sins that could solo kill me and that's if I wasn't paying attention.. and 3 of them are in my guild. And no my suggestion would not make shadow escape useless it would just make the player actually have to think about what they are doing as opposed to rolling their face on the keyboard. God you act like having to actually think about using skills wisely is a bad thing, seems like anything said about your OP class being less OP just makes you QQ about it so continue on QQing honestly no one cares about you sins QQing about being less OP. You need to be nerfed /thread.

You know, you might've been taken seriously if you didn't constantly use words like "QQing" and try to act like you know what I'm thinking of.

Oh and by the way, I might be a bit different than most people when it comes to approaching skill usage. You see, I spend time actually doing the math behind stuff like minimum required APS for permasparking with IH and/or RDS. Or figuring out the best way to use Wind Shield.

And besides, it's not like a 5 aps BM isn't just about as bad as a sin. The only difference is that you can AD or IG the Demon Spark and that's it. With a sin, you can't really do that since they can Shadow Escape or IH and they've got a second triple spark right up.

And really, if no sin can kill you solo, then why are you complaining so much? Why the heck would it matter if John Doe or Jane Doe right next to you is getting slaughtered as long as you don't?

Either you kill it in one go or run in to the SZ or just out of the way just like other classes. Sins already have the surprise element, why should they be able get away differently than other classe

Oh come on, a little difference makes stuff more fun.

Out of the OPs suggestions, two look like their main intention is to specifically **** on Assassins. Well, the Bramble would also make stuff tougher for BMs and Barbs. And trust me, PvP that is turned into a cat and mouse game really isn't fun.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »

Not really rage just was bored and find this game rather ridiculous watching sins pop out and kill ppl without them even having time to domain.

But watching cheze and Rinc **** every other sin on the server besides Kitamura is highly entertaining.

Yeah, I'm glad they're in-faction too. I would never step outside of safe zone if I knew they were there waiting... there would be no point. lol

And yes, it's quite hilarious to see them **** whoever they want. As long as it's not me. lol

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh come on, a little difference makes stuff more fun.

That's like saying you wanna have a map-wide nuke happen every three seconds killing every PKer because it makes PKing a bit more fun...

In fact, THAT would at least make some sense.

Conavar - Heavens Tear

They should make bramble work vs Ranged/Magic dmg b:sin