Another KS scenario?

Azzazin - Dreamweaver

Well guys, here's a little situation I ran into recently, and I'm curious to see what others have to say about it.

Yesterday in the wee hours of the morning, immediately after maintenance was done, I logged on, and went to check on a world boss... in this case, 'Soul Hunter'. Yet fast as I logged on, a few people were faster still; a very small group of ~lvl 70s had gathered by Soul Hunter and were using ranged magic attacks. I don't think they were from the same faction. Don't ask me how, but despite the fact that they had only taken about 100k hp off, Soul Hunter was already doing his aoe stun/hp debuff every 6s (typically Soul Hunter starts this action only after he has lost 1/2 hp). Left to their own devices, they would have had to spend 6 hours+ to kill the boss, easily.

Well I thought to myself, this is ridiculous. They'll be here forever and a day; I'm going to go kill the boss. And I told the people there so, I said 'Heh guys, I'm going to kill this boss and get the loot, you probably shouldn't waste your time staying here'. Naturally, they didn't listen to me, and so off I went, and as I had said, I killed the boss. Took... maybe 40 minutes? Having the aoe stun right from the-get go made it a bit slower than normal. **** drops. Anyways, this is all besides the point.

Later on, I get a pm from the faction leader of my alt cleric 'So I heard you were KSing a boss'. Here my memory is a bit vague as to the particular wording (at this time I was busy with a friend killing another world boss), but basically, I was told that this reflected 'badly on the faction' and that I'd 'be booted if I did this again'. I thought that was an absurd threat, and removed my cleric from that faction.

Anyways. Here are the facts:

1)As I recall, the 3-4 lvl 70ish ppl who were there were not of the same faction
2)They had *just* started attacking the boss when I arrived
3)Left to their own devices, they'd have easily been there 6+hours at the rate they were going
4)I clearly stated that I was going to be killing the boss, & that those there shouldn't waste their time

So do tell, (a) does this even constitute KSing? and (b) how exactly does this reflect 'badly' on a faction? Heck I can possibly understand, say, 10 ppl from my cleric's faction showing up & taking the kill from another large group of ppl who had already arrived there & who were actually capable of killing the boss in a decent amount of time, as reflecting 'badly' on a faction. Instead, I arrived with my cleric, to see a small group of ppl who were not really capable of killing the boss in a decent amount of time, and I arrived pretty much right after they did. Maybe 2 minutes outside, tops.

Thoughts?

Azzazin

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

You, uh, walked up to a bunch of people who were killing something, told them you were going to KS the boss they were killing, did so...

And are surprised that people think you're a KSer and that they don't want to be associated with you?

You kill-stole. Deliberately, and with malice. You weren't mistaken, you didn't do it by mistake or not knowing what you were doing.
You walked up to a bunch of people, and stole their kill.

Were I one of those group of people, I'd not be allowed to name and shame you on the forum. So, thank you for doing it yourself.


Edit:
For reflecting badly - whilst you have that faction name and logo over your head, you are carrying your factions reputation.

You are named and shamed; if you were still in that faction, so would they be.

Naivety - Harshlands

You dealth more damage than they did.

Therefore, you got the kill.

Sucks for them to be on a PvE server doesnt it? It was your boss dude, you fairly out-DDd them and won the drops.

Anyone who QQs otherwise really has no idea in the world.....

Stubbie - Heavens Tear

^^geez wut is wrong with KS a wb ? I dont give a damn if u here first or not : loot are set to ppl who kill more than 50% health for ksing purpose : so why not ? Stop QQ becoz you cant win , try to find away around it or quit it. Nothing will chnge even if you QQ so shut itb:thanks

Azzazin - Dreamweaver

Alrighty, so here's another way of looking at this. The definition of 'kill steal' would be to 'steal the kill' or in PWI terms, do more than 50% damage to a mob/boss after somebody else hit it before you. What if, though, the 'kill' is not necessarily a certain thing? Lets take this to the extreme: imagine a lvl 1 veno was attacking the world boss in question here. Veno's not gonna die, boss does no dmg range. So if I waltz along and kill the boss after the veno has been there, whether it be 2 minutes or 2 hours, does this count as a kill steal? I hardly think so! The hp regen on the boss would prevent a lvl 1 veno from ever killing the boss no longer how long they tried.

Back to the situation I described in my first post; this small group of lvl 70s would have had to stay there an enormous amount of time to kill this boss. I estimate that during the 40-45minutes I spent at the boss, their cumulative dmg did not exceed 2million. Or, from another perspective, left to themselves, they'd have been there... forget 6 hours, they'd have been there half a day. Do I call that a certain kill? Hell no!

Hence, 'kill-steal'... I really can't see it. Me telling them I was going to kill the boss was more of a courtesy; 'Look there's no way you getting this kill, go save yourself some time, it'll be wasted here'.

Azzazin


FYI: My edits are for fixing grammar and stuff, I'm nit-picky about that in my own writing.

HealingBliss - Lost City

So did you just seriously ask if it still counts as kill stealing if you tell them your going to steal it first?

Azzazin - Dreamweaver

Read my above post ^^

Man - Raging Tide

Bosses don't have owners.

Its all semantics after that, but it doesn't sound like you were morally at fault b:chuckle

Besides everyone knows to pull boss from spawn! If not you have taught them a lesson.

HealingBliss - Lost City

Well i'm just glad there aren't many jerks like you on lost city. I think it's nice some level 70's wanted to try a world boss. But you are a sin so i guess that explains everything xP

MyuMyu - Harshlands

it's WB so it's not KS, same like PQ Boss or Rare Pets, if someone camping there 24/7 does that means any other players are prohibited just bcos some toon is standing there 1st?
(or in my example standing there 24/7?)

if the number of the mob is many and respawn fast, yeah that might count as KS.
or if the mob is needed for important Quest, that is KS.

Naivety - Harshlands

HealingBliss - Lost City wrote: »

Well i'm just glad there aren't many jerks like you on lost city. I think it's nice some level 70's wanted to try a world boss. But you are a sin so i guess that explains everything xP

Heeeeey! I resent that. Us sins are nice.


























Honest b:surrender

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

So... it's not kill stealing because they would have been there a long time?

Is that really an argument you're putting forwards?


That has about as much backing to it as "It's not killstealing because I wore the holiday outfit"

You knew what you were doing, you told them you were doing it and then you did it.
It's killstealing and it is just plain wrong.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Um, so basically you're saying that since you "saved" those people the time that they would've otherwise spent on the boss, you're not stealing a kill, just "helping"?

That's ridiculous. In case you did not know, there are actually people who enjoy challenges and fighting a boss for multiple hours. Not to mention that they'll be all "YAY WE ARE THE BESTEST THING EVER!" if they actually manage to kill it.

And no matter how you slice it, you did go in while they were killing a boss and took the kill for yourself. It actually matters in two ways: a) you stopped them from doing the boss on their own b) you didn't share the drops. And the latter is especially crucial when it comes to discussing kill stealing, since most people only care about the drops they get, or don't get.

What I don't see, is why you're so concerned about it. Just play as you see fit and if others complain then that's too bad.

Happy_Killer - Harshlands

In communist Harshlands, when you KS, you get PK'd.

IJS. Be thankful you don't run a PvP server. You'd die like....so fast.
They were there first. If you're so anal about not having to wait, join their squad. Can't join their squad? Get over it, leave.

It is an insult to a faction....back in the days where most had some form of honor, you'd probably have been kicked and then PK ganked. It doesn't reflect well on them at all. That's why if you have ONE person from a strong, land owning faction (Zulu for example) and ONE moron does ONE thing wrong, suddenly their whole faction is filled with weak, stupid, pathetic, cash shopping, hyper-sucking d-bags who are generally QQ'd about by everybody and their mom. (Luctiricia, COUGH.)

Olbaze said it best though.

Shneibel - Harshlands

if you hit the boss and kill the boss while they killing it that ll be ks, doesnt matter how you look at it, but you PK em all or <CENCOR> up the boss by pull mobs/train em or heal the boss (some game can) and then kill the boss after they got wipe, it is legit and their excuse/complain is QQ :>

Reddragonash - Harshlands

Scenerio

You work in construction and come across some people with shovels and axes digging a chest from the ground,
you go get your machine operated excavation equipment and go tell them since you dig faster you have the right to that chest, you run in and excavate and take the chest...
you see, took and stole,


only way it would not be KSing is if you were there WHILE it spawned, then its free for whoever same as case for rare pets,
but if they already started, no matter how much hp was left or litte gone ..taking from that group is Ksing

Waterfal - Sanctuary

I would consider it ks. Seriously, a couple of lvl 70's taking on a challenge. if they see how hard they hit, and how much hp the boss has they can see that it will take hours. If they found it to be a problem they would just have left wouldn't they?

Imo you really are a complete jerk. If it were 2 factions who both wanted to kill and both had a chance of doing the most damage as in if it is a fair competetion. Then I don't consider it ks.
But stealing a boss from a group who you can easely outmatch, while they are taking on a challenge is just plain rude.
you already stated in your first post it had crappy drops anyway. So why not give them the chance to kill it?

I hope you're proud of yourself by "saving them 6 hours of work"

Azzazin - Dreamweaver

@Olbaze: If'll you refer to my first post, I said I was curious as to what others had to say about it. I hold no doubts in my own mind over my decisions here; however I thought this was something that different people would have a lot of different things to say about. And guess what? Turns out I was right.

So let me get this straight, those who think I'm a big bad evil dude: since I arrived a COUPLE MINUTES TOPS after a small group of LOW DMG LVL 70s, I should have just 'oh dearie me, I didn't arrive here first, I'll just let them whack away at the WORLD BOSS for the next... oh, half a day'. Or perhaps Oblaze would suggest I squad with these people, and have me share the drops from a boss I killed in a fraction of the time it would have taken the lvl 70s to do it.

Are you suggesting I should have done that?... yeah, you/me are not going to see eye-to-eye on this I'm afraid!

Oh... on a different note, as you are aware there's a fairly decent chance that world bosses drop.. nothing worthwhile. That particular world boss had only oht mats; the one I did after dropped a few elemental perfect shards. My latest attempt at a world boss yield a decent shard, but still no chrono pages. So imagine you are a one of the lvl 70s who (because it was a challenge, right) has spent about half a day killing a boss, to find out... oh. No good drops at all. I don't know about you but I'd be sliggghtly peeved. Just a little bit. So suggesting that I saved the said lvl 70s time is not such a far-out statement, when looked at from this perspective.

Azzazin

Waterfal - Sanctuary

Belive it or not. Alot of people in this game (especially around lvl 60-80) don't kill bosses for drops. But for the sake of killing it.

I personally wouldn't be that dissapointed with crappy drops if I managed to kill a world boss at lvl 70. It's not something you do because you need money at that lvl. Since mp-use will probably cost even more then the drops are worth.

It's for the sake of being able to say look! we killed a world boss, without even being close to endgame.

Naivety - Harshlands

In Defense of OP and life in general:

If I can, and you cant, I will, and you wont.

If they coulda out DDd him, theyd have had an ever so nice story to tell (Lulz this phail sin tried KSing the WB we were doing) but they didnt so they dont.

Your basically saying its unfair if the boss beats them, because they were killing it.

And yay for PVP servers! You ever SEEN the fights around world bosses that erupt sometimes? A group can have a world boss on the last 10% HP and get roflpwnd by a BM Dragoning with a barb Armageddoning alongside various other AoEs.

The squad is dead, the boss resets and pewf new group takes on the boss, and fights off the old group whilst doing so. You gonna tell me the original group had some right to not get disturbed? Get lost.

If you cant handle the KSing, move to a PvP sever and FIGHT BACK.

Otherwise, you simply arnt PvEing as hardcore as the KSer, therefore you are LOSING, NOT being cheated out of kills.

---All of you ****ting on him for stealing a boss are absolute losers. He. Beat. The. Competition. The competition needs to level up more to beat him. Yay for him showing that there are advantages to out bloody levelling your opponents >_>

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So let me get this straight, those who think I'm a big bad evil dude: since I arrived a COUPLE MINUTES TOPS after a small group of LOW DMG LVL 70s, I should have just 'oh dearie me, I didn't arrive here first, I'll just let them whack away at the WORLD BOSS for the next... oh, half a day'. Or perhaps Oblaze would suggest I squad with these people, and have me share the drops from a boss I killed in a fraction of the time it would have taken the lvl 70s to do it.

No, I'd tell you to stop being so whiny about the drops and move on.

Oh... on a different note, as you are aware there's a fairly decent chance that world bosses drop.. nothing worthwhile. That particular world boss had only oht mats; the one I did after dropped a few elemental perfect shards. My latest attempt at a world boss yield a decent shard, but still no chrono pages. So imagine you are a one of the lvl 70s who (because it was a challenge, right) has spent about half a day killing a boss, to find out... oh. No good drops at all. I don't know about you but I'd be sliggghtly peeved. Just a little bit. So suggesting that I saved the said lvl 70s time is not such a far-out statement, when looked at from this perspective.

You're making quite an assumption there. For one, you're assuming that they care about the drops. For two, you're assuming that they don't know about the drops.

A lot of people do WBs just because it's fun, not because of the drops.

I was in rather large faction and we did WBs once a while. When I went to observe it, the amount of people from the faction killing it was amazing. There had to be like 20-30 people in there. Well, they were killing Sword Tamer, but even so, there's really nothing left over from the drops to the 20-30 people after the kill. It's obvious that they didn't do the WB for the drops. And the faction is an active TW faction who owns multiple lands, so I doubt that they could be classified as "idiots".

And again, who knows, if they were doing the WB for fun, I doubt that getting drops or not wouldn't matter. They were level 70s after all, so just being able to kill a world boss would feel pretty awesome, even if it took like forever. And especially since it would take like forever, it'd be even more awesome to level up some, gear up some and get back and see what happens on the next attempt.

And from the sounds of it, you're soloing multiple WBs on the maintenance day. If so, then why the heck are you so stuck up about the drops?

I'll admit that I am pretty profit-driven myself, but more than the profit, I value my time. That means that if it means I can avoid trouble, I'll gladly give up some of my profits.

---All of you ****ting on him for stealing a boss are absolute losers. He. Beat. The. Competition. The competition needs to level up more to beat him. Yay for him showing that there are advantages to out bloody levelling your opponents >_>

Of course, he beat the competition. But what competition was there? A single 5 aps assassin against a small group of level 70s. Everyone with a brain knows who's going to do the more damage. So that argument is kinda moot. Just because you have better gear and a higher level does not somehow make you immune to being a decent human. Not saying that this guy should get shot dead or something, but there certainly is a slight aura of maliciousness around him.

Waterfal - Sanctuary

oh he probably is allowed to. And there probably are no rules that say that he isn't allowed to.
But imo it's just rude to do so since it was no fair competition.

I'm not saying he is wrong. I'm saying he is wrong in my opinion.

Tearle - Dreamweaver

I'm a bit curious here, you said they did 100k-200k dmg or so right? (something like that) but you arried 2 minutes after they did? I'm not sure about Worldbosses HP but that seems like decent dmg for a small group on a lvl ? mob, no? Or am I completely wrong here?

Ps I know one of the people from the group, some of them were in their 80s ijs

Azzazin - Dreamweaver

@ Tearle: as I mentioned before, *when* I arrived, the boss was doing its aoe stun every 6 seconds. For a ranged magic dder, that means up to 1/3 of your attacks get cancelled, and the rest are double the channeling length. I hypothesize that they did some damage when the boss was normal, and then they did something to make the boss start aoe stunning long before it should have (@ 1/2 hp). From the time I arrived to when boss finally died, I'm guessing they did no more than 2mil damage; I wasn't timing it, but it was certainly over 30 minutes (even with tidal protection, I got stunned a whole freakin lot), and probably closer to 45 minutes, perhaps a bit more.

Incidentally, why I was set on this world boss? I'll be plain, its one of the few I can do with just me and cleric. For other world bosses I recruit my barb friend to help. I'm hardly a well-geared sin; a decent wep, 8k hp with sage barb buffs, average phy defense; world bosses hit me for big numbers! So already the number of bosses I can do is limited, and the one I know I can do, well shame, a few low dmg magic users got there just before you. Which begs the question; seeing as they got there so quickly, would you really expect them to *not* be after the drops? The forum post stated maintenance would last from 11pm pst to 1am pst; I logged back on 10 minutes *before* 1am; only 1 person was on FL when I logged in. I got on very shortly after servers opened, trust me on that. Does somebody log on and immediately go to a world boss and not plan to kill it for profit?

As to why these people wanted to kill the wb... well they never told me. I didn't hear a word from any of them during the entire time I was there. Not sure what to make of that... maybe they didn't speak English?

Azzazin

Tearle - Dreamweaver

They do, or at least one of them who's on my f-list, speaks english but if someone waltz up and says "hallo, i'm going to ks you now." Would you really be willing to carry on a coversation? It sounds like you had already made up your mind to kill the boss come hell or high water and that no matter what they said they would have lost the boss. I'm not trying to say "shame shame!" for doing that but I believe a few posts back you described ksing as doing more than 50% dmg after someone else hit it... well isnt that what you did? >_<
Either way, I hope this gets sorted out for you though :]

Azzazin - Dreamweaver

Ah I was just going by the weapons I saw, which appeared to be tt70; I didn't actually take the time to scout the gear of each person there. As you might appreciate, I was a bit preoccupied.

Tearle - Dreamweaver

:P i've only ever helped with one world boss (one of those out in the desert, can't recall his name since I was lvl 75ish at the time) but yes, I can appreciate them being a pain in the ****. I especially love the ones that are seemingly easy at first then hit everyone (low lvl speaking of course) for twice their hp.

Man - Raging Tide

Carebears much?

This thread is crazy.

The Mods have stated many times there is no monster or mob ownership. Just because they are there first, or attack first does not entitle them to kill boss and take its drops.

This was after server maintenance and people are supposed to fight each other for world bosses.

Using alpha male and flying up to reset boss Is bad mannered and something to get excited about. (i've seen it before)

Feeding lvl 1 cleric alts to Cenimator IS something to get excited about.

This thread? nothing exciting here.

Skulla - Dreamweaver

Azzazzin, I see you just opened a bag of Oreo cookies there...

I doubt you can eat them as fast as I can, in fact I think I'll just take your cookies and eat them faster than you to show you how it's done.

Don't like it? QQ me a river.

How is this preposterous example similar to your story?
How is it dissimilar?
Can you connect the dots?

NiaJade - Harshlands

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

<snip> You gonna tell me the original group had some right to not get disturbed? Get lost.

If you cant handle the KSing, move to a PvP sever and FIGHT BACK.

Otherwise, you simply arnt PvEing as hardcore as the KSer, therefore you are LOSING, NOT being cheated out of kills.

Agreed.

Look, there is nice to them and there is nice to you. Nice to them, gets you squat (they even ignored you when you offered to help and then turned you in for it) - nice to you, gets you what you have been building yourself u for entire game and allows you to possibly earn some coin to gear up even better.

He was bigger, stronger and could kill the boss in a reasonable amount of time. Why should he wait for them to stop playing with it? And when they grow more, hell - they can do same.

Do not get me wrong, I am a nice person. But, honestly... this is what gaming is about. I go to oracles and see the tiny ones struggling to kill and I wait... and wait and fricking wait. They die, I take their spot, they run back - demand their spot back. NO....

Sometimes people need to stop wasting OTHER people's time and stick to mobs/bosses their own level so others can get in there, kill it and move on.

If It was me and they had an issue, I woulda of probably wove an aggro mob - bought it to to them and then went *poof*... They want to play big level - then here is a mob for them to practice on.

And going to tattle to his Leader - is just not cool. Really.. if by now, you cannot handle issues between yourself an another player w/o running to their Legion to get them into hot water - it is kinda sad. This 'they pked me, they ksed me, they are bothering me.. nonsense. Grow a spine, and handle it yourself vice running off to whine.

For OP - this type of person.. will rage quit before they hit 90 probably... dont' let it bother you.

MyuMyu - Harshlands

I wandered if it was me with this avatar toon, and not OP who hit the mob; wonder if everyone will judge me KS the WB

Oh, maybe they'll just think "LMFAO what is this Lv.6x idiot Veno doing? helping us reduce the WB's HP? We still got the drops bcos our damage is higher anyway LOLOLOL"