is there any class that can't beat us

Menarin - Dreamweaver

prof wrote: »

let's compare mine to an equal-refine light mage:

me:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8e7763229cf19cd0

them:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=90d07d568bbad0bd

Not to end up debating something rather ridiculous, but I've played a LA wizard up to lvl 90 (in the past, I'm pure now).

Now let me state it right here before all of you throw a hissy fit. I DO NOT ENDORSE a LA build, however if you're going to roll one at least do it properly.

Now to business, the LA build you posted sucked. If you're going to use OP armor and fantasize at the very least stat the build properly. You had way too much strength, and honestly, a LA build wearing a helm instead of arcane headgear? LOLOLOLOLOLOL

here is the FIXED LA build:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=2ad06fa3c309133a

added benefits from gear (that have a difference)
Channelling -31%
Reduce Physical damage taken +10%
Dexterity +18
Magic +26

note the difference in yours:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=4f39f4e2ac3a1f4e

added benefits from gear (that have a difference)
Channelling -28%
Reduce Physical damage taken +9%
Strength +5
Dexterity +25
Magic +20

That means my build has:
-3% more chan
+1% Reduce phys damage taken
-7 dexterity (useless, unless its a +20points for +1crit%)
-5 strength (useless to the build altogether)
+6 magic


FIXED LA with cleric buffs:
10801 phys def
9805 magic def

Your LA build with cleric buffs:
10914
9672

Your pure wiz with cleric buffs:
9751 phys def
13977 mag def

That's a 1050 phys def difference and a -4172 mag def diff.
Still proving that the LA build (resist-wise is inferior, but only by 3122 def diff.)

But here's where the but comes in. If you went Sage LA build you could minimize the mag def difference even more. Because being honest the extra +1% crit for (fire, water, earth) mastery's is insignificant and demon SB isn't really that good for a LA build, but I digress.

I still feel that Pure is the way to go, as LA is more of a surprise attack element then anything and beyond that its not that useful, because if you're fighting a veno as LA you might as well just lay down and die, but again, I digress.

Carry on.

Adroit - Lost City

@Menarin - one of the advantages of LA builds is the ability to use a helmet as opposed to arcane headgear. Helmets refine better than arcane headgear (his helmet gives ~ 400 more hp than yours does). I dunno about you, but 12 stat points would be very reasonable for an extra 400 hp imo. Ofc I'm not saying a wiz should ever go LA, but there was nothing really wrong with prof's build.

Menarin - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

@Menarin - one of the advantages of LA builds is the ability to use a helmet as opposed to arcane headgear. Helmets refine better than arcane headgear (his helmet gives ~ 400 more hp than yours does). I dunno about you, but 12 stat points would be very reasonable for an extra 400 hp imo. Ofc I'm not saying a wiz should ever go LA, but there was nothing really wrong with prof's build.

I beg to differ but that's just me. While his build isn't per say "wrong" it's not optimized all the way. I more or less tweaked it to make it more correct for a wizard.

I hardly think that 443hp and 113 phys def and around 100~evasion is = to:
-3% more chan
+1% Reduce phys damage taken
+6 magic
130 mag def
and 750mp (1200 with wellspring quaff)

EDIT: And I didn't even add in the extra magic attack you gain. But that's besides the point. LA still sucks even if you optimize it.

but if you'd rather take the hp that's up to you. Might I also note the helmet is lvl95 while the arcane headgear is only lvl70. But if you still think the hp is worth it... again your choice.

Galox - Heavens Tear

Just to say, I went LA and have not regretted it...well, I'm starting to want to restat to pure now. I personally believe LA is better than a Vit build (Yes, MY opinion..)

I don't know how I would of coped being AA 1-60 at least. I know it is widely believed that AA is better than LA 90+, and I do agree. But, if someone wanted more survivability for solo questing ect. I'd always suggest a LA build. You get more +HP out of a flawless shard than you get for a point of VIT, (You could probs argue same for sharding Garnets :P)

Peace,

~Gal

Adroit - Lost City

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I beg to differ but that's just me. While his build isn't per say "wrong" it's not optimized all the way. I more or less tweaked it to make it more correct for a wizard.

I hardly think that 443hp and 113 phys def and around 100~evasion is = to:
-3% more chan
+1% Reduce phys damage taken
+6 magic
130 mag def
and 750mp (1200 with wellspring quaff)

EDIT: And I didn't even add in the extra magic attack you gain. But that's besides the point. LA still sucks even if you optimize it.

but if you'd rather take the hp that's up to you. Might I also note the helmet is lvl95 while the arcane headgear is only lvl70. But if you still think the hp is worth it... again your choice.

You make it sound like prof was **** for ever even considering a helmet for a LA build. The choice between those two helmets is a matter of preference, as both have their advantages and disadvantages (if I were LA I'd likely have chosen helmet over arcane headgear). Now if you were criticizing an arcane build with a full +8 set, but left the cape at +7 for w/e reason.. you'd have a case. Capes refine as LA (which refines more than arcane), so it just wouldn't make sense to refine the rest of the set and neglect the cape. Arguing about personal preference really isn't going to get you anywhere.

prof

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Now if you were criticizing an arcane build with a full +8 set, but left the cape at +7 for w/e reason.. you'd have a case.

you have no idea how many people don't know this b:sweat

cape was my first +10 piece of armour b:victory

Menarin - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You make it sound like prof was **** for ever even considering a helmet for a LA build.

This I actually apologize for. I was probably PMS-ing about something. So Prof, here's a formal apology, I admit your build was rather nice, but again it could use a bit of fixing. I also apologize for occasionally making things sound bad about another person, it wasn't my intention.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

The choice between those two helmets is a matter of preference.

I agree, but you could say the same thing about anything for that matter and while the added hp and phys def is nice, it's not necessary for a LA build when you could just throw on SB and ToP.

That was really one of my points in the first place. (probably forgot to write that in I'm a bit scatterbrained). The Magic def and boost to magic attack is absolutely necessary for playing a LA wizard as it adds to minimizing your weakness and boosts your crit spike (dmg output), and you'd know that if you had ever played a LA wizard up to a high enough level.

Also sorry if I didn't make that clear from the get go. The argument was never so much about the helmet as it was the stat changes. Believe it or not 13~ points really does make a difference when applying them to the main stat of that class. (i.e. magic for wizards). It's just a fact that we gain more from a single point of magic, then we ever would from a single point of strength. Though debate this if against me if you will. (I wouldn't do it personally, it will only make you look stupid)

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Arguing about personal preference really isn't going to get you anywhere.

Again, I'd agree, if that were the case.

Your points are better placed elsewhere but again, I guess debating about optimizing a class build is now considered "arguing personal preference", but I digress.

TL: DR Not about helmet, stats in magic instead, better def, hp ultimately worthless when fighting arcane class. Something... something... Optimizing a build not personal preference.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

prof wrote: »

you have no idea how many people don't know this b:sweat

cape was my first +10 piece of armour b:victory

Oh oh oh, I knew it!!! I knew it!!!

And warsoul arcane helms too. After weapon, I refine those highest.

And light armor without a heavy helm is like a hug without a squeeze, ijs Although when the arcane helm you are comparing to is warsoul, well, it becomes a much closer call. From 1-70, get the heavy helm. Period.

Pearlwood - Lost City

Galox - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just to say, I went LA and have not regretted it...well, I'm starting to want to restat to pure now. I personally believe LA is better than a Vit build (Yes, MY opinion..)

I don't know how I would of coped being AA 1-60 at least. I know it is widely believed that AA is better than LA 90+, and I do agree. But, if someone wanted more survivability for solo questing ect. I'd always suggest a LA build. You get more +HP out of a flawless shard than you get for a point of VIT, (You could probs argue same for sharding Garnets :P)

Peace,

~Gal

You "don't know how [you] would of coped being AA 1-60"...? LOL Maybe it's cause you didn't do it. Im not starting a fight as to AA v La v Vit (and don't care cause beginning at 90 the question is moot), but starting about lvl 40 I zoomed as AA. And the zooming didn't slow down until exactly level 79. At 80 I discovered frost, but the expense for quality gear and skills changed in economies of scale. It was then that I really had to make the decision either to continue or quit or re-roll.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Galox - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't know how I would of coped being AA 1-60 at least.

I think its probably a little easier now. Jones blessings (do those work at lvl 1?), 3 bh's each day, cheap hypers. All make leveling faster, and hence leveling as a pure wiz somewhat easier than it used to be.

I still prefer light armor to level a wizard in spite of all that. Critting more often is fun. Being able to take a hit is fun. Being different than 99/100 wizards you meet is fun. All that for the bargain basement cost of $15 reset note at level 90? Yes please.

Pearlwood - Lost City

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

I think its probably a little easier now. Jones blessings (do those work at lvl 1?), 3 bh's each day, cheap hypers. All make leveling faster, and hence leveling as a pure wiz somewhat easier than it used to be.

I still prefer light armor to level a wizard in spite of all that. Critting more often is fun. Being able to take a hit is fun. Being different than 99/100 wizards you meet is fun. All that for the bargain basement cost of $15 reset note at level 90? Yes please.

Not to change the subject, but; I read on the Sin's forum (just looking for info) that Wizards can blink even while "immobilized". Am I missing something here? It was on their "guide", but anyway....

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Not to change the subject, but; I read on the Sin's forum (just looking for info) that Wizards can blink even while "immobilized". Am I missing something here? It was on their "guide", but anyway....

I think immobilize means "walk/run, etc." but you can still use skills. I never get all those sleep vs stun vs seal vs paralyze vs immobilize etc right.

but yea, if a sin stuns you, genie skill (expel/domain/fortify) and spam distance shrink (and FoW/Whisper at same time if you can do both).

BlastingWave - Harshlands

@ pearlwood , yea you can blink away while your frozen ive tried it , works just fine

Pearlwood - Lost City

BlastingWave - Harshlands wrote: »

@ pearlwood , yea you can blink away while your frozen ive tried it , works just fine

Yet another bit of alchemy learned. For sin's ambush: blink, fortify, ironguard...destroy. Now what's wrong with that? Testing results forthcoming....

Adroit - Lost City

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Yet another bit of alchemy learned. For sin's ambush: blink, fortify, ironguard...destroy. Now what's wrong with that? Testing results forthcoming....

all the sin needs to do is force stealth. Now your fortify + apoth pots are on cooldown >.>

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Yet another bit of alchemy learned. For sin's ambush: blink, fortify, ironguard...destroy. Now what's wrong with that? Testing results forthcoming....

And that only works if they immobilize you . . . .

They have other stuns i believe, and usually start with those.

Pearlwood - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

all the sin needs to do is force stealth. Now your fortify + apoth pots are on cooldown >.>

I'm sure I'm missing something...but in this scenario, he used stealth to ambush and immobilize. Surely there's a cooldown to stealth. And, after blink, his instincts will be to chase....not run. That was my thought anyway. And, you don't have to use genie there, if shorter immunity will do..use Sutra Power Orb.

I'm not sure how long his stun/freeze/immobilize lasts. 3-5 sec I assume.

Now, Adroit....I don't suppose blink works against a BM's stunlock?

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

I'm sure I'm missing something...but in this scenario, he used stealth to ambush and immobilize. Surely there's a cooldown to stealth. And, after blink, his instincts will be to chase....not run. That was my thought anyway. And, you don't have to use genie there, if shorter immunity will do..use Sutra Power Orb.

Can you use apoth if they stun you? I think most sins would start with a stun, wouldn't they? Not whatever that immobilize skill is.

And even then, although you certainly have a shot, don't forget that you have to kill sins twice sometimes (deaden nerves?) and 1 out of 4 hits will only do 1 damage to them (focused mind?). And fortify>ironguard doesn't give you 12 seconds of stun immunity, does it? They can just stun/sleep/seal/immobilize (whatchamacallit) you again.

Pearlwood - Lost City

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

Can you use apoth if they stun you? I think most sins would start with a stun, wouldn't they? Not whatever that immobilize skill is.

And even then, although you certainly have a shot, don't forget that you have to kill sins twice sometimes (deaden nerves?) and 1 out of 4 hits will only do 1 damage to them (focused mind?). And fortify/ironguard doesn't give you 12 seconds of stun immunity, does it?

Yes, I'm sure it does.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure it does.

please intentionally misquote me out of context b:chuckle by deleting all but the last line of the quote. The casual reader will have trouble knowing which question you are answering.

Adroit - Lost City

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

I'm sure I'm missing something...but in this scenario, he used stealth to ambush and immobilize. Surely there's a cooldown to stealth. And, after blink, his instincts will be to chase....not run. That was my thought anyway. And, you don't have to use genie there, if shorter immunity will do..use Sutra Power Orb.

I'm not sure how long his stun/freeze/immobilize lasts. 3-5 sec I assume.

Now, Adroit....I don't suppose blink works against a BM's stunlock?

immobilize lasts almost 10 seconds (longer if sin is sage). Sins have two stealths, regular stealth which just requires them to be out of "battle mode" or w/e its called. If they were just attacking they can force stealth, but this has a little bit of a cooldown. If I renenber right its 1min 30 secs at lvl 10, goes down more for lvl 11. Sins generally use normal stealth to start so they can force stealth later when they are in trouble.

You may want to take a look at sin skills, half the fight is understanding/predicting what your opponent is doing. Blink is great against bms.. if you use it b4 u are stunned. You cant shrink while stunned, but if you time it just right.. you can get the bm stuck in the roar animation for like 5 seconds. Most bms are dead if I can get them stuck like that.

@BLOOD - You still havent figured out what misquoting is eh? There is a difference between responding to part of a post and taking bits and pieces out of several posts (out of context) to prove a point.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

@BLOOD - You still havent figured out what misquoting is eh? There is a difference between responding to part of a post and taking bits and pieces out of several posts (out of context) to prove a point.

I do understand. Its the "to prove a point" part that I dispute and which you have never shown to be true.

Pearlwood - Lost City

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

please intentionally misquote me out of context b:chuckle by deleting all but the last line of the quote. The casual reader will have trouble knowing which question you are answering.

Maybe that's because you edited your response AFTER I quoted you. omg I was right...it's impossible for u to be wrong.

Pearlwood - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

immobilize lasts almost 10 seconds (longer if sin is sage). Sins have two stealths, regular stealth which just requires them to be out of "battle mode" or w/e its called. If they were just attacking they can force stealth, but this has a little bit of a cooldown. If I renenber right its 1min 30 secs at lvl 10, goes down more for lvl 11. Sins generally use normal stealth to start so they can force stealth later when they are in trouble.

You may want to take a look at sin skills, half the fight is understanding/predicting what your opponent is doing. Blink is great against bms.. if you use it b4 u are stunned. You cant shrink while stunned, but if you time it just right.. you can get the bm stuck in the roar animation for like 5 seconds. Most bms are dead if I can get them stuck like that.

@BLOOD - You still havent figured out what misquoting is eh? There is a difference between responding to part of a post and taking bits and pieces out of several posts (out of context) to prove a point.

As to the time of immobilize; I was remembering what one of our 9x sins told me. But, sometimes I get my info confused, or he just wasn't being candid. In any event, blink works...to delay. After that he still has to locate u, another couple seconds...so u have time to develop a game plan.

Also, I'm not "touting" anything, but I killed a 98 sin with Sutra Power Orb (before he could stun me) and then 4 normal shots..ss (with EP), pyro, gush, ss. And, he's a really good sin (no names to protect the guilty). They are not as fearsome as commonly thought, if you can anticipate their attack. Another big one tried me at silver pool, I intercepted with Sutra Power Orb and he ran off.

Lastly, BLOOD....I hope you were kidding around. Being 100 doesn't mean you have to know everything about everything. Now that is impossible.

Adroit - Lost City

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

As to the time of immobilize; I was remembering what one of our 9x sins told me. But, sometimes I get my info confused, or he just wasn't being candid. In any event, blink works...to delay. After that he still has to locate u, another couple seconds...so u have time to develop a game plan.

Also, I'm not "touting" anything, but I killed a 98 sin with Sutra Power Orb (before he could stun me) and then 4 normal shots..ss (with EP), pyro, gush, ss. And, he's a really good sin (no names to protect the guilty). They are not as fearsome as commonly thought, if you can anticipate their attack. Another big one tried me at silver pool, I intercepted with Sutra Power Orb and he ran off.

Lastly, BLOOD....I hope you were kidding around. Being 100 doesn't mean you have to know everything about everything. Now that is impossible.

I'd love to see you fight rinc, who is imo the most skilled sin for his gear on the server. Tell me how that goes. I'm sure if you ask nicely he won't even use stealth.. and will still destroy you.

Pearlwood - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I'd love to see you fight rinc, who is imo the most skilled sin for his gear on the server. Tell me how that goes. I'm sure if you ask nicely he won't even use stealth.. and will still destroy you.

I tell you what Adroit, I'm still kinda low as PVP goes and need a decent genie, but I'll get there, and when I do...u specialize in bms and I'll specialize in sins. Then we write a manual. BLOOD can provide the official criticism (you know..the thumbs up thumbs down Roger Ebert kind of thing) [edit...this paragraph meant to provide humor cause I'd rather not fight rinc in your presence...I've found that against sins, no witnesses is usually best when recording history]

Oh, and by the way, I just talked to my sin friend about it. I mentioned that sin's immob lasts for 10 sec and he gave me the "lmao". He said sin's immob lasts 3 sec and their stun lasts about 4 sec. That's what he said. I don't know. Just info.

edit: I talked to another interval sin friend, said wizard forum dispute on this and he said Sin's immob lasts up to 9 seconds.....sooo I DON'T KNOW. Does anybody know what goes on in the mind of a sin? lol

eyehaveyou

well is there any class that cant beat a wiz might be easy to answer: no.

anyways the other question is. " is there any class that cant be beaten by a wiz?"

answer: no.

imo fighting with a wiz is just a question of "who hits first?"

FoW-> undine strike -> sleep -> Mountain seize -> gush(or any fast hit) -> blade tempest(or BIDS)

and anything should be dead since we hit pretty hard. incase ur opponent still lives. RUN and die b:chuckle

then again im no pker lol.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Maybe that's because you edited your response AFTER I quoted you. omg I was right...it's impossible for u to be wrong.

you quoted me before I was finished posting, so eager a beaver you are . . . .

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

As to the time of immobilize; I was remembering what one of our 9x sins told me. But, sometimes I get my info confused, or he just wasn't being candid. In any event, blink works...to delay. After that he still has to locate u, another couple seconds...so u have time to develop a game plan.

Also, I'm not "touting" anything, but I killed a 98 sin with Sutra Power Orb (before he could stun me) and then 4 normal shots..ss (with EP), pyro, gush, ss. And, he's a really good sin (no names to protect the guilty). They are not as fearsome as commonly thought, if you can anticipate their attack. Another big one tried me at silver pool, I intercepted with Sutra Power Orb and he ran off.

Yup, sins are easy. EVERYONE else has it wrong, but THIS FNG has it right.

Adroit, you should really take lessons from him, ijs

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Being 100 doesn't mean you have to know everything about everything.

Nope. I do know all. Just ask me. Yes, yes, these forums are full of statements by me, saying im pro-pk and know everything there is to know.

Pearlwood - Lost City

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

you quoted me before I was finished posting, so eager a beaver you are . . . .

Took about ten minutes for it to sink in that you actually didn't know something. So I stared at it and when you didn't edit immediately to cover up your mistake, I reluctantly provided a gentle reposte.

Then of course you edited and said I intentionally misquoted you. (that's a no no..you're getting a good finger shaking) This is what we've been chiding you about.