An Early GM Response to the TW Changes
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Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »Everyone keeps saying "why would a faction TW for mirages?", but I paid attention and factions are still bidding as normal and vying for lands. Seriously until large factions actually abandon lands because it is no longer worth it, there is not an argument there either. So until one of the 2 happens I don;t think they should up and change the system again. Competition and winning is its own reward.
Below vUm ... as others have pointed out, on Lost City there are only 3 wars this weekend. That's 1/2 or perhaps 1/3 of what we've been having. Supposedly the goal is to make TW interesting and affordable for smaller guilds who have previously felt locked out. On Lost City, not one new faction bid this week who hadn't bid the previous week. Furthermore the 2nd or 3rd strongest faction on the server -- a faction that I think has had a war every week since I started playing over 15 months ago -- has suddenly ceased attacking.
So maybe Dreamweaver is different, but on Lost City both of your 2 things have already started happening. I don't expect it to change next week.
100% in agreement...
Even then we do not expect our war to last a long time. Although we will be 100% prepared, I personally have my doubts.
We were used to on the server at least 8 (?) wars a weekend and now down to 3 -.-...of which, most are the smaller factions...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
RoidAbuse is awesome, only he would sell his sperm for gear!!
"Toughest monster? ..... RedsRose b:surrender" - Kantorek
Where is my 1 v 1 Kan? b:mischievous0 -
Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »Everyone keeps saying "why would a faction TW for mirages?", but I paid attention and factions are still bidding as normal and vying for lands. Seriously until large factions actually abandon lands because it is no longer worth it, there is not an argument there either. So until one of the 2 happens I don;t think they should up and change the system again. Competition and winning is its own reward.
There are a total of 9 TW's this weekend, 3 of which are tonight against Calamity (bidded by lowbie factions). A total of 3 wars per day.
That's actually less than in the past.
Not to mention, the factions listed on the map are semi-regulars. The other lower factions either didn't bid, or got outbid (my assumption's the former). Either way, TW is down in attendance this week, than 2-3 weeks ago.Some people risk to employ me
Some people live to destroy me
Either way they die0 -
Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »Everyone keeps saying "why would a faction TW for mirages?", but I paid attention and factions are still bidding as normal and vying for lands. Seriously until large factions actually abandon lands because it is no longer worth it, there is not an argument there either. So until one of the 2 happens I don;t think they should up and change the system again. Competition and winning is its own reward.
Maybe on your server smaller factions bid and let me ask you something if you were a leader of that small faction that bids will you be willing to pay min bid at 100k to a land and hope no one else over bids that and than hope you can by some fluke win in that tw and get a reward of a shiny mirages that will really benefit your small faction is so many ways huh?
And about large factions leaving lands i think i never heard such stupid idea ever, why in the hell did those factions that have land work week after week to improve and to get better gear in 1st plays for a few rpks maybe??????????0 -
Um ... as others have pointed out, on Lost City there are only 3 wars this weekend. That's 1/2 or perhaps 1/3 of what we've been having. Supposedly the goal is to make TW interesting and affordable for smaller guilds who have previously felt locked out. On Lost City, not one new faction bid this week who hadn't bid the previous week. Furthermore the 2nd or 3rd strongest faction on the server -- a faction that I think has had a war every week since I started playing over 15 months ago -- has suddenly ceased attacking.
So maybe Dreamweaver is different, but on Lost City both of your 2 things have already started happening. I don't expect it to change next week.
So they are just not attacking thats=/= to giving up land. Maybe the reason no new factions have bid is because they dont have an interest in TW anyway. Also yes is different on DW are tw week is the same as before.0 -
I think the change in TW is already happening. If you look at Lost City there are 3 lands which are protected by the largest guild (Essence) and are controlled by smaller factions. Almost every week prior to this patch those lands have been bid on by other smaller factions looking to own those lands and reap the rewards. The bigger factions have always been fighting it out and taking over the lands of the other big factions. As stated above we are down to 3 wars this week. The 2 regular TW guilds (Essence & Kamisama) and 1 guild attacking the weakest of the 4 big guilds (Yakuza). TheClick and Spectral have all but given up playing the TW game and this will start to adversely affect the game very quickly.
Something needs to be done fast. This is the second week of changed TW and I think the amount of responses speak for themselves. TW needs to be rewarding. The factions have to want the lands they are attacking otherwise they won't bother. Trust the server to do the right thing in TW and if they don't punish them. If a faction takes over the entire map and doesn't give it back you have the power to reset it. Land control is a natural part of the game (or was) and the rewards that went with it made this game what it is. Please fix it before you kill the game beyond repair.0 -
Os_city - Harshlands wrote: »Maybe on your server smaller factions bid and let me ask you something if you were a leader of that small faction that bids will you be willing to pay min bid at 100k to a land and hope no one else over bids that and than hope you can by some fluke win in that tw and get a reward of a shiny mirages that will really benefit your small faction is so many ways huh?
And about large factions leaving lands i think i never heard such stupid idea ever, why in the hell did those factions that have land work week after week to improve and to get better gear in 1st plays for a few rpks maybe??????????
That is the beauty of anonymous bidding. Don't bid a land that has a bid on it; wait till last minute.
I didn't say they should give up land. I said until they do, it doesnt corroborate with people saying there is no point in going to TW anymore.0 -
Elayne - Lost City wrote: »I think the change in TW is already happening. If you look at Lost City there are 3 lands which are protected by the largest guild (Essence) and are controlled by smaller factions. Almost every week prior to this patch those lands have been bid on by other smaller factions looking to own those lands and reap the rewards. The bigger factions have always been fighting it out and taking over the lands of the other big factions. As stated above we are down to 3 wars this week. The 2 regular TW guilds (Essence & Kamisama) and 1 guild attacking the weakest of the 4 big guilds (Yakuza). TheClick and Spectral have all but given up playing the TW game and this will start to adversely affect the game very quickly.
Something needs to be done fast. This is the second week of changed TW and I think the amount of responses speak for themselves. TW needs to be rewarding. The factions have to want the lands they are attacking otherwise they won't bother. Trust the server to do the right thing in TW and if they don't punish them. If a faction takes over the entire map and doesn't give it back you have the power to reset it. Land control is a natural part of the game (or was) and the rewards that went with it made this game what it is. Please fix it before you kill the game beyond repair.
Wrong this is still the first week, as last week bidding should have been normal, cause changes weren't made until after bidding ended.0 -
Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »Wrong this is still the first week, as last week bidding should have been normal, cause changes weren't made until after bidding ended.
How would you know what's going on, on their server? o.O
Don't go throwing out "you're wrong" to people you don't even play on the same server with.Some people risk to employ me
Some people live to destroy me
Either way they die0 -
Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »Wrong this is still the first week, as last week bidding should have been normal, cause changes weren't made until after bidding ended.
Still coulda have effected the attendance of the players,
my guild on harshlands has gone from 7 wars lastweek, to not a single war this week, and the 2nd strongest (used to be best for ages) did not bid at all...Wonhalt0 -
Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »Wrong this is still the first week, as last week bidding should have been normal, cause changes weren't made until after bidding ended.
Technically speaking this is the -start- of the second week of the TW changes. As Elayne stated there were consistent bids on at least 2 of the lands held by smaller guilds by other small guilds so they could have a war on their own level. This week they don't have a war probably because the factions that usually bid on them see no point in wasting 100k to possibly win 150 mirages.
As for the bidding system I see its flaw. Say faction A bids the minimum bid on faction B. Faction C who is alts or friends of faction B sees the bid and assumes since faction A has always been bidding on faction B that this bid was placed by faction A. Therefore faction C decides to bid twice the minimum bid on faction B thus outbidding faction A and faction A cannot bid again because they have used their one bid. Therefore the fake bid is easily done.
The second largest faction saw this patch coming from the CN server last week and didn't bid and probably won't bid again imo. They see no point in wasting their money to get mirages. My faction, the largest, will continue to bid because we want higher chance of getting rank 9 badge just so other players don't get it. Call it greed, I call it strategy.
But frankly you assume to know more than you actually know so please bare in mind that all servers are different in how they operate and the players make different decisions. I just think that seeing a PvP server drop its TW wars by over half in one weekend says alot.Push me,
And then just touch me.
Tilll I get my,
Satisfaction.0 -
Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »The second largest faction saw this patch coming from the CN server last week and didn't bid and probably won't bid again imo. They see no point in wasting their money to get mirages. My faction, the largest, will continue to bid because we want higher chance of getting rank 9 badge just so other players don't get it. Call it greed, I call it strategy.
^ Agreed...even we had a warning that I posted on our guild forums at the beginning of July. Some people on the server saw this coming, but it was more at how quickly they implemented the changes.But frankly you assume to know more than you actually know so please bear in mind that all servers are different in how they operate and the players make different decisions. I just think that seeing a PvP server drop its TW wars by over half in one weekend says alot.
THB --> Maybe the major decline is more in the PvP server but then again, we have more of a reason to be competitive seeing as though we step out of SZ and are fair game. This means more of a reason for the refining, gear, etc...amazes me that some people cannot see the shift. And even last weekends wars were...well...blah (even more for me but you know why and I am being selfish...qq Susa b:sad)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
RoidAbuse is awesome, only he would sell his sperm for gear!!
"Toughest monster? ..... RedsRose b:surrender" - Kantorek
Where is my 1 v 1 Kan? b:mischievous0 -
Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »LOL yes let us all bow down before the land owning gods and have them make the decisions.
It stands to reason that if guild "a" owns 50% of the land, and the other 50% is held by guilds "b", "c", "d", and "e", then guild "a" must have one or more of the following:
1. Strongest players on the server.
2. Highest levels on the server.
3. Largest percentage of cashshopping players.
Imagine if your huge business in real life didn't cater to the majority. You lose their support. Possibly have a riot on your hands. Aside from all that, it's disrespectful. When you lose the support of the majority you fail, or you're at least taking that risk. Maybe PWE sees more gain in losing the support of the majority, if that's the case then all they want to do is turn this game into a 3d chatroom with mounts and weapons and armor and gambling packs. I guess there's more money in that. **** the game when we can make more money.
On a side note, since this is still supposedly a free game, can anyone explain why I should have to go out and buy another computer just to have a 24/7 catshop set up to fund the daily costs of playing ONE CHARACTER? After all you can't multi-client. I can't play 15 hours a day, nor should I need to. I'm the leader of a lvl 3 guild, I spend all my time helping my guildies and friends, I don't even have time to go out and grind or farm. I've put thousands of dollars into this game in the past, it was like my only hobby for a long time. I looked forward to playing this game for years (and putting thousands MORE into it, effectively) but these recent changes pretty much destroy my hopes of that ever happening, let alone going to TW. As I said before... "what will they change next??"
No one complained about the old UI, and no one complained about the old TW system. If people want to do TW, let them join a guild that is already doing TW. TW is an end-game goal, it shouldn't be available to everyone. Work on the list of things that need to be done, the list that has been growing for years now.
/2 cents, flame away...0 -
Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »Wrong this is still the first week, as last week bidding should have been normal, cause changes weren't made until after bidding ended.
Actually the patch notes were released prior to bidding close last week so this is the 2nd week.0 -
Drakanson - Sanctuary wrote: »First of all, this suggestion is UNtimely. It seems that an agreement was decided before we saw this suggested change. Secondly, this will cause several unwanted events:
1. Loss of gold in more ways than one.
2. Disinterest in even trying to build a quality character thru game play.
3. Feelings of discrimination against the GM who (hastily) thought this is a good idea.
4. Eventual loss of income at server site and possible loss of jobs
5. Even more eventual loss of players coming to the server because of this reputation inclusion idea for only one large faction.
If it were MY programming shop and I had to respond to players, I would make them wait until my supervisor saw these posts and pass the RESULTS of player input on to the developers. To institute a change like this could have negative consequeces because NOT all players are under 30 years of age and MANY of those players are watching these posts as we text to determine the level of maturity at the decision makers level.
Friendly warning: Do you want to lose the player base you have because of a hasty, ill-thought suggestion, or do you want to continue to build a quality game. It is as simple as that.
Good Luck and tolet you know, there are already OVER 500 cash players ( angry btw) who are watching the outcome of this post.
BTW: The UNEMPLOYMENT office is just down the street.
Interesting. I have some questions about some of your points:
Re: #1: Can you elaborate more on this? Specifically which losses of gold are you talking about?
Re: #2: Isn't Territory War considered gameplay?
Re: #3: I think we've seen that pretty much any change brings about "feelings of discrimination" toward the GM(s)
Re: #5: Considering the recent changes, and the fact that a lot of factions would be vying for the reward, wouldn't it be tough for one large faction to dominate?
Hope to see more of what you're thinking!0 -
Haha, frankie skipped #4.
And to answer your question frankie (#5), any guild who wants to be on top, will stay on top. Either through Cash Shopping (which those top guilds already do) or....well...just CSing really.Some people risk to employ me
Some people live to destroy me
Either way they die0 -
Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »So they are just not attacking thats=/= to giving up land.
You're splitting hairs. My understanding is that they only barely mounted a defense. When you're losing land, not attacking and not defending is giving up.Maybe the reason no new factions have bid is because they dont have an interest in TW anyway.
Then why are we even having this discussion? These changes were supposedly implemented to make TW more accessible to factions that you claim don't actually want to do TW anyway.
The fact is, there are probably a dozen smaller factions who have done TW over the last month -- not every week but here and there. Each week, some combination of 3-5 of them typically attacked various factions. This week, none. At least 3 factions that have bid every week for months -- in most cases every week those factions have been in existence -- did not bid this week and one or two others that have bid most weeks also did not bid. I don't see how you can look at that and conclude that nothing has changed.0 -
frankieraye wrote: »
Re: #3: I think we've seen that pretty much any change brings about "feelings of discrimination" toward the GM(s)
Re: #5: Considering the recent changes, and the fact that a lot of factions would be vying for the reward, wouldn't it be tough for one large faction to dominate?
!
#3 - For whatever it's worth, I know the GM's aren't to blame. But you GMs are our communication medium to the people that can and do make the changes. I also realize that any change will upset SOME people. You just can't make everyone happy. I'm glad to see the GMs thinking with us here, thank you!
I've never had any negative feelings about this game (that I felt were worth posting in the forums) until patch 390. Again, I'm the leader of a small lvl 3 guild that hoped to go to TW one day. I've played since April of '09, in spite of what my forum avatar says.
#5 - I'm not motivated in the least to bid even 100k on a land and incur the costs of TW for 150 mirages as a reward. Furthermore, I wouldn't bid 100k for a chance at rep badges either, but I thought that was a good idea, and if it will keep the peace and make the large guilds happy, that's good enough for me.
Also on a side note, and it's been said before... The dominating factions are going to dominate no matter what the reward, for the simple fact that they're already established, they already have the experience, and they can afford to.
It just feels like we're nit-picking the details of what kind of apples to use in the apple pie, when no one wanted apple pie to begin with.0 -
Frankie
I would ask that you continue to communicate to your superiors, the problems facing the players. I demand an increased commitment in your work for so we can give solution to this patch and of course keep us informed about news from the Dev. I have not seen a comment as you give notice of the answers provided by the Devs, what news till now? What progress has the problem?
In this last week has decremented the number of users in PWI, Archosaur: my server, there are people who do not want to do any activity as BH, FC, FB, PQ. And this begins to worry.
I demand a greater commitment to the gamer community, and of course a greater commitment from us to you, while the problem is mitigated as soon as it possible.
Imma keep here waiting for a really answer from you.
Chasee0 -
you guys talk alot. pretty much heres whats gana happen, TW guilds will stop giving sallary wich ejects aboute 600m (right?) out of the game. that 600m would normally be used twards buying gold for charms, teles, gaurdian scrolls and general items from other players. you deprive all of those players from 1-3m a weak then they have no money to spend on gold and other items wich will result in the price of gold decreasing as well the general price of items decreasing. Wich isnt rely a bad thing it just means pwi is going to have alot less people buying gold until the econemy is stabilized again. tbh i dont give a **** aboute tw guilds, i just want the damn ui fixed >.> b:surrender0
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Mraochan - Lost City wrote: »It stands to reason that if guild "a" owns 50% of the land, and the other 50% is held by guilds "b", "c", "d", and "e", then guild "a" must have one or more of the following:
1. Strongest players on the server.
2. Highest levels on the server.
3. Largest percentage of cashshopping players.
Things are not so simple.
Specifically, a lot of the strongest players in the strongest guild on the server used to be in my guild. We have a popular faction, but we have had a constant drain to the bigger factions because while we are fun we were not rich.
Meanwhile, the strongest factions are not so much fun, so people quit playing the game after a while and we lose other people to fill those spots...
I do not know how things will pan out, but I do know that I am rather dubious about a lot of the predictions I have been reading here -- they just do not fit with how I see things.
But we will be finding out for ourselves soon enough?0 -
192 Pages of people mostly telling you guys how moronic the last update was and all you guys do is lock the thread and expect the discussion to magically move over here from where it left off there? Wow. It seems pointless for us to give you a discussion when the threads get locked before anything is solved. Just like the "no more packs" thread. b:shutupb:byeMade by Nowitsawn
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
frankieraye wrote: »Interesting. I have some questions about some of your points:
stuff...
Re: #3: I think we've seen that pretty much any change brings about "feelings of discrimination" toward the GM(s)
more stuff...
---* response *---
b:bye0 -
Trying to get rid of PWI addiction is hard, suppose that is why i still read this forum now and then. I kinda liked TW, even though i didn't perform all that well. And the devs/gm's do have a point that some factions grows very powerful. I don't see this change as the way to go though. Facing off faction vs faction was great fun, at least when the factions was somewhat evenly matched. Rolling over a smaller faction wasn't much fun.
Perhaps an event each day of the weekend for nonlandholding factions?
Giving somewhat less reward (if possible) then a regular TW, but hopefully it would be more fun for the smaller factions , as well as function as good training for the real deal. Rules: Factions competing must NOT be in the possession of a land. Otherwise, bidding would work simular to normal TW.
Friday, Saturday and sunday, the 6 highest bidders get to compete.This is my signature. It is my sin in stealth mode.0 -
frankieraye wrote: »Update:
The changes should make TW far more competitive.
The old way, once a faction holds half the map, they are making 300M coin per week, which leads to:
#1 - Poaching elite players from smaller factions who want to get in on the Coins.
#2 - Being able to either pay for charms or fake bids, both of which give them a huge advantage over a non-TW faction.
So the huge faction continues winning its battles (whether they are legit battles or fake battles), and it wins 90% of every winning bid. Legit wins give them a new source of income, and fake bid wins only cost them 10% of the bid that they themselves made (keep in mind that you don't need charms for a fake battle).
Eventually, the dominant faction has enough coins to outbid everyone for 200M coins each through fake bids. They then get back 90% of each of these 200M coin bids. The map ultimately is entirely theirs.
This is why, with the former system, PW in Malaysia and China ultimately ended up with the territory war map completely taken over and nothing anyone could do about it.
With the new rules in place, huge factions will no longer be getting enough coins from the TW system to be able to afford Charms and fake bids every week. You will no longer have to depend on a faction disbanding out of the kindness of its heart to have a diverse TW map.
Wow...
Factions there did not hold land because of fake bidding, they held land because they were better than the other factions.
You know nothing about TW I think.0 -
Things are not so simple.
Specifically, a lot of the strongest players in the strongest guild on the server used to be in my guild. We have a popular faction, but we have had a constant drain to the bigger factions because while we are fun we were not rich.
Meanwhile, the strongest factions are not so much fun, so people quit playing the game after a while and we lose other people to fill those spots...
I do not know how things will pan out, but I do know that I am rather dubious about a lot of the predictions I have been reading here -- they just do not fit with how I see things.
But we will be finding out for ourselves soon enough?
Thanks for the response and insight.0 -
frankieraye wrote: »
Let me just assure you that we do NOT want to ruin the TW system.
What I'm asking is that we give this system some time before condemning it for good. There has been a lot of speculation, and the majority of you are very much against it, and that's been noted, believe me.
But for now, this is the game, and these are the changes that have been made to it. We will be closely monitoring what happens with TW over this next month, and Konari, Aryanna, and myself will be on these boards to hear you out during the process.
---
Update:
The changes should make TW far more competitive.
Yes, I snipped out a bunch of this quote.
FACT: There are a grand total of THREE Territory Wars on Lost City this weekend. I'm pretty sure that's the smallest number since the first few weeks of the server. The 3 wars involve 6 factions; 5 of those 6 are hands-down the 5 most powerful TW factions on the server.
REAL QUESTION: Do you, at this time, feel the changes have helped or hurt the TW system? Is it "far more competitive" now?
Thank you for your time.0 -
How is the new system more competitive, no one freaking bothers to bid anymore.
All i can see is people growing old/bored/unchallenged sitting on a stacks of semi useless mirages for the rest of their in-game life, that must help the TW system plenty.
Its only 3 WARS during this entire weekend on Lost City, was the same last week to.
They will all be over in 10 minutes since no one gives a shiat if guild wins or not, the reward for doing TW has been removed as we all know.
Before the patch there was normally 6-12 wars during a weekend on Lost City. Even small/Midsize factions on Lost City had attack and defense wars against each other or helped ganked a bigged one.
Grats on killing of TW, hope you can fix it before its to late. For us old veterans TW is one of the few reasons why we still play the game, still bother to improve gear and skills ans such. But now i dont really see a reason to do anything beside logging in and chatt for a bit.
Really hope this will change some how in the future i dont want TW to die out ;(0 -
frankie, I hope you have access to your user database and the amount of gold they spend in-game. I also hope you have access to the number of players that play the game AND also buy stock in the company. Finally, hopefully, somewhere, there is a "satisfication rating" by players with the game.
Last year, in July, the price of stock was NOTHING like this year. For 11 months, there was robust movement and a "fairly satisfied" in-game atmosphere. In the last two months, the players have been set on edge by changes in the game economy, the proposed changes, and now these rumors.
Today, your company stocks were DOWN by 16 points at the end of the day. Could this be telling us all something?
To be reasonable, according to "Game Theory", any change brought about too quickly without giving the support base ( the players) runs the risk of losing said support base. Another danger point is taking suggestions of only a few players and trying to institue those changes for all players without better research and feedback from your support base.
After doing my research, I noticed that EA is trying to move in on your company according to your company's press notice. Does this mean MORE quick changes? People will NOT continue to support this type of activity unless the majority agrees with those changes. For the sake of the game, and the "enlightenment" of the players, please do NOT institute further changes until it can be proved that making those changes will add to the quality and enjoyment of the game for the majority of the players.
Thank you0 -
Did this topic die or is everyone tired of beating their face against a wall?
pic related
I want to know why the devs do not want to look at implementing the removal of the 10mill bank note, or possibly what their take on our suggestions of added incentive to TW because the current incentive = no incentive at all.Push me,
And then just touch me.
Tilll I get my,
Satisfaction.0 -
Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »Did this topic die or is everyone tired of beating their face against a wall?
pic related
I want to know why the devs do not want to look at implementing the removal of the 10mill bank note, or possibly what their take on our suggestions of added incentive to TW because the current incentive = no incentive at all.
Lol'd @ pic
I'm facerolling my keyboard actually... Tired of saying the same thing and agreeing with everyone...
Some more people need to voice their opinions! C'mon people! Like it or hate it?! Speak up! b:victory0
This discussion has been closed.
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