[Discussion of Territory War Changes 8-5-10]

Michael_Dark - Lost City

truekossy wrote: »

If people in this thread understood that, we wouldn't have anyone supporting these patch changes and actually beleaguering PWI's goal was to lower gold prices, combat inflation, or whatever drivel they plan on using as an excuse.

I know, it's kind of sad that they bluntly lie to our faces saying 'oh yeah they make endless bags of money and stopping that will change everything and we'll have bunnies and blue skies'... and people actually believe that BS.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yup, and PWI has a knack for creating demand. They dont actually care about gold pricing on the servers. They just want ppl to buy buy buy gold. This of course then ups the demand curve & the price raises, as a side effect. Basically to lower gold price, PWI needs to lower demand, but that means less profit, and they cant have that no can they?

Of course they don't care. Well, that's not true, they actually want the gold prices to be higher. As well as they like having green mats and anything farmable in-game to have a lower price. This creates an environment that is very friendly to someone that has money to spend. The more friendly the environment is to those who spend money, the more money people will spend. I mean this is all basic economics **** and it's kind of sad that the majority of people who think these changes are great eat it all up but they just don't get it.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

because tw pays are the biggest coin providers atm. Erase that and u get a much more poor economy where pple need to adjust the cost accordingly. Unlike a real life poor economy where prices HAVE to be jacked up in some cases, PWI prices are only jacked up because it CAN be (aka greed)

basically with all that coin gone the competition between gold BUYERS have fallen.

Wow... I guess you don't realize what is actually happening every time you see this:

Duke shouts: Let it be known that CashShopper has recently acquired Perfect - Token of Best Luck.

Every time you see that, another 5 million coin is inserted into the economy from out of nowhere. Do you actually notice seeing how often these pop up? 560m per week from TW doesn't even come close to what 10 Million Bank Notes do, and if you think otherwise, you must really not be paying much attention.

Rough estimates are that Perfect Tokens of Best Luck put as much as 1-2 BILLION new coins into the game EVERY DAY.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

Your just focusing on the results of the packs, and forgetting that these packs just dont appear out of nowhere free. (unlike tw pay that just rains from the skys FREE) There is a reason why pple call the packs a GAMBLE. because u hope to get a lucky profit out of the ones u loose money opening. (compared to selling the packs outright or getting a win)

You don't seem to understand. Sure the money or coin used to buy packs isn't new. The Perfect Tokens of Best Luck you get out of them combine to make 10 Million Big Notes which do create new coin that is injected into the economy. TW pay can't even compare to the scale of what these are doing.

Mendolin - Sanctuary

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

because tw pays are the biggest coin providers atm. Erase that and u get a much more poor economy where pple need to adjust the cost accordingly. Unlike a real life poor economy where prices HAVE to be jacked up in some cases, PWI prices are only jacked up because it CAN be (aka greed)

basically with all that coin gone the competition between gold BUYERS have fallen.

the price of gold is determined by how much people are willing to pay for it... even if there is 1 person that is willing to pay it... gold will always remain the same

the packs have set a standard... you can buy 1 gold for the chance to get... lets say a scroll of tome, the cost of gold is then determined by how much people are willing to pay for that chance

supply and demand- the more useful that gold is, the more things being put into boutique to buy... the more people put a price and value on gold

thats how i see it

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Wow... I guess you don't realize what is actually happening every time you see this:

Duke shouts: Let it be known that CashShopper has recently acquired Perfect - Token of Best Luck.

Every time you see that, another 5 million coin is inserted into the economy from out of nowhere. Do you actually notice seeing how often these pop up? 560m per week from TW doesn't even come close to what 10 Million Bank Notes do, and if you think otherwise, you must really not be paying much attention.

Rough estimates are that Perfect Tokens of Best Luck put as much as 1-2 BILLION new coins into the game EVERY DAY.

the cash shoppers dont make up 90% of the servers population. Are u assuming that everyone is getting some kind of even distribution?

Maragon - Dreamweaver

according to the database the odds of a best luck is 1.7% which means PWI makes 100 dollars for every 10 mil put in the economy.

the thing is, Deceptisar, when a person does not hit that small percent coin may be lost to him but not to the economy. Its just moved to someone elses pocket. but of course the coin is really only going to a few people be it from getting best luck of from buying the packs or gold to get the packs.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Mendolin - Sanctuary wrote: »

the price of gold is determined by how much people are willing to pay for it... even if there is 1 person that is willing to pay it... gold will always remain the same

the packs have set a standard... you can buy 1 gold for the chance to get... lets say a scroll of tome, the cost of gold is then determined by how much people are willing to pay for that chance

supply and demand- the more useful that gold is, the more things being put into boutique to buy... the more people put a price and value on gold

thats how i see it

cant really tell wtf is up with gold atm. One hour its at 400k+ buyers and 430k sellers, next day the buyers are down to a whopping 300k and within the hour goes back up to 375k and such

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Maragon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

according to the database the odds of a best luck is 1.7% which means PWI makes 100 dollars for every 10 mil put in the economy.

the thing is, Deceptisar, when a person does not hit that small percent coin may be lost to him but not to the economy. Its just moved to someone elses pocket. but of course the coin is really only going to a few people be it from getting best luck of from buying the packs or gold to get the packs.

thats probably whey they made the tws a non-refund. Really not all the leaders can dish it out of their pocket money, they will have to rely on donations and a good bunch if u wanna serious tw and its a blind bid, no refund. (altho this method only softens it a little)

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

the cash shoppers dont make up 90% of the servers population. Are u assuming that everyone is getting some kind of even distribution?

It's not 90% of the server population that is driving up the gold prices. It's also not 90% of the server population that spends money. It is that small percentage of players that do that contribute to inflation the most. They'll pay more money for someone else's gold because they have extra millions to spend on it. So the person who works hard for their coin may only want to pay 400k for 1 gold, but the person who opened 200 packs and got 6 Perfect Tokens of Best Luck (and you can't deny you haven't seen the same person get 4 or more of these at one time)... they're willing to spend 450k per gold. What does that do to gold prices? Well that one person has lets say they got 4 of those... they have 20 million new and extra coin to buy gold at 450k instead of 400k. What if they get a Lunar Ornament or Weapon, or Gem or Wing Trophy and sell it. Check your Gold Trader and see how much gold would immediately increase if someone bought 50 gold with coins.

Aeyris - Sanctuary

Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

This system is going to strangle the competitiveness out of smaller factions like the one Fuzzy leads, it is only a matter of time.

The larger factions that have held vast tracks of land for much longer periods of time are now left with a resource pool that is far far far deeper than anything a smaller guild can hope to ever achieve.

A faction like Nefarious, (sorry, just the most obvious name that jumps to mind) assuming they have managed their assets well has a war chest that, even while no longer being replenished each week, will allow them to bid on territory and build towers and buy cata scrolls etc at no cost to their members for a long time to come.

A small faction like Fuzzy's which only holds 3 territories will be depleted of resources in a matter of weeks. It will then fall to the faction itself to raise the required funds if we wish to participate. The idea of supplying charms? No longer even an option. This will make a small guild unable to withstand an attack from a larger one.

Also, if you think it will result of no pay is the cata-barbs etc in the biggest factions going charmless you are kidding yourselves. The 20k+hp barbs etc are not the players that are dependent on TW pay for charms. It is the players in the smaller factions who are unable to cash shop etc to cover their costs that rely on it the most..... aka 90% of the members of the smaller TW'ing factions.

Thanks for essentially passing a death sentence on the ability of a smaller guild to have any prayer to keep attempting to compete.

b:sad

I agree with all of this. I am a Marshal in what was an aspiring TW faction...now, unless changes are made (which there wont be any >.<), we just can't afford to bid and not get cash back.

If anything, PWE, you are OVERPOWERING the larger factions that already hold land. Thanks for crushing my faction's, and many others', goals.

Lenore - Harshlands

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

the cash shoppers dont make up 90% of the servers population. Are u assuming that everyone is getting some kind of even distribution?

Lenore: More coin is injected into the server via Tokens of Best Luck per DAY than all the TW lands TOGETHER contribute in a WEEK. Even if one faction owned the entire map, the 560M they get at the end of the week does not compare to the hundreds of mils of coin pouring into the system EVERY DAY. That's like TW pay day every day of the week. As for the cost of the packs, it doesn't cost the server coin money to open packs. Packs spawn magically into your inventory when you spend gold, which magically appears on your account when you charge money, so in terms of just the game itself, YES the packs do appear out of nowhere without taking coin out of the system.

Remmi - Raging Tide

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

like i said;
Most of all pple buy more packs than they profit out of best of lucks 99% of the time. How many packs do u think pple open on AVERAGE to get an even profit out of them? Each pack is bought with gold or coins, each one of them opened thats not a win looses money.

1. RL money ---> ZEN---- > gold

---

> packs

---

> token of best luck

---

> coins
2. How the tokens of best luck get there, how much RL money it requires, doesn't matter for the amount of coins you get from 2 tokens of best luck
3. No one buys packs with coins: it defeats the purpose of buying packs

===> few people getting very large amounts of coins

==========

silent bidding and no refund = impossible to do TW for smaller factions which will grind/ farm/ trade forever to get enough coins to even bid and then most likely lose to larger factions in the bidding
result: they hand over their cash and still not even got to do a TW

===> lots of people losing a lot of money and not getting anything back

To even play the game fully you now need to be in the largest faction, where it used to be that you couldn't win, but at least compete and play.

I don't know what part of this you don't understand, but I'm sure there are 1800+ post to explain it.

Lenore - Harshlands

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

like i said;
Most of all pple buy more packs than they profit out of best of lucks 99% of the time. How many packs do u think pple open on AVERAGE to get an even profit out of them? Each pack is bought with gold or coins, each one of them opened thats not a win looses money.

You are assuming something like every 10 packs someone gets a best of luck which is total BS, ask any cash shopper. Unless you are referring to some super lucky 1/200 person that got some continous lucky streak wins...

Your just focusing on the results of the packs, and forgetting that these packs just dont appear out of nowhere free. (unlike tw pay that just rains from the skys FREE) There is a reason why pple call the packs a GAMBLE. because u hope to get a lucky profit out of the ones u loose money opening. (compared to selling the packs outright or getting a win)

Deceptistar, I've seen you a lot on the forums and you've made many logical posts, but this post shows how little you thought this through. More people buy packs than they profit IN COIN if they buy packs from cat shops, but the coin they spent buying the packs doesn't disappear from the server, they just exchange hands to the person selling the packs. Say I buy 100 packs for 450K each, that's 45M worth of coin I spent. I win 4 tokens which I cash in for 20M total, so I "lost" 25M in coin. However the person I bought the packs from has my 45M, and I have my 20M, which totals up to 65M coin on the server from our transaction. Where did the person selling the packs get them? Well, he could have just spent $90 to buy 100 packs, which is his own money and did not cost the server any coin. So in that transaction alone, the server "spawned" 20M of coin and a stash of tokens. Repeat that process between a few hundred people per server and you'll find that 560M from TW pay in one whole week is nothing. Even if the seller bought gold from the AH, that gold is "outside money" which doesn't sink any coin except the tax from actually using the AH, which is negligible in this case. From the server's perspective, these tokens and thus coins ARE raining out of the sky for free, and at a much higher rate than TW pay.

Yreccils - Harshlands

Basically this thread changed to yet another rant about the packs and the bad economy because of packs.

Everybody agrees that packs are **** with the whole gameplay but we should focus on the TW subject here.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Only reason I used to play was because I hoped to one day get to 90+, join a tw fac, and one day help that fac become one of the biggest tw forces on the server.
But now? You have to join an already big tw fac if you want to do ANY tws, because even the fac I'm in right now just announced that we will no longer be trying to tw, since it cost waaaay too much with no refund.

And I dont want to train to 90+ just so i can lose 2m+ in charms every week in tws

So as for my crowd, the lvl 5X-9X, who asspired to become part of a strong tw fac and make money from it one day, we're gone, pwi is dead to us.

Several of my irl friends have taken pwi off their computers, and I'm waiting until the end of the month to do it myself, either to see if pwi removes the changes (UNLIKLEY), or crashes and burns (already happening?)

So between me and my friends, you can say goodbye to 8+ (mild) cashoppers. We never bought gold for packs, just things like flying mounts, but there's no way now. Only regret is spending ANY money on the game. Was just a grindfest, and I never really got to a lvl where I could enjoy myself in PK, TW's, etc.

Euphy - Dreamweaver

Euphy: I think the person above me raised a the most valid concern. No refunds on bids makes TW exclusive. Small factions are unable - and unwilling - to spend so much money on wars they:
1) Might not get to fight.
2) Probably will lose even if they get to.
I love that you're searching for good coin sinks but that is over the top.

PS: Fix your UI.

Lenore - Harshlands

Yreccils - Harshlands wrote: »

Basically this thread changed to yet another rant about the packs and the bad economy because of packs.

Everybody agrees that packs are **** with the whole gameplay but we should focus on the TW subject here.

Lenore: I think the main reason people keep bringing the economy up is because PW is using it as an excuse to take out the TW coins, which IS related to TW. Some people mistakenly claim that the TW pay coin injection is inflating gold prices when it is clearly not. The actual concern for hard core TWs however is that now there is very little motivation to own land at all, thus destroying the incentive for smaller guilds to gank big guilds, because it would ultimately cost the smaller guilds more coin (they are bidding, after all). I get the feeling that people would be willing to live with this change if bids would still be refunded and TW lands still had some value, maybe in the form of refine items or at least something more distributable than a badge and worth more than mirages.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

Yreccils - Harshlands wrote: »

Basically this thread changed to yet another rant about the packs and the bad economy because of packs.

Everybody agrees that packs are **** with the whole gameplay but we should focus on the TW subject here.

The two topics are intricately interwoven. They claim the TW changes will help the economy. The ranting is because the devs dont realize that the Packs (Tokens of Best Luck) are doing 20 times more damage then TW ever did. So yes, this is a discussion about the economy & thereby packs.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

Deceptistar, I've seen you a lot on the forums and you've made many logical posts, but this post shows how little you thought this through. More people buy packs than they profit IN COIN if they buy packs from cat shops, but the coin they spent buying the packs doesn't disappear from the server, they just exchange hands to the person selling the packs. Say I buy 100 packs for 450K each, that's 45M worth of coin I spent. I win 4 tokens which I cash in for 20M total, so I "lost" 25M in coin. However the person I bought the packs from has my 45M, and I have my 20M, which totals up to 65M coin on the server from our transaction. Where did the person selling the packs get them? Well, he could have just spent $90 to buy 100 packs, which is his own money and did not cost the server any coin. So in that transaction alone, the server "spawned" 20M of coin and a stash of tokens. Repeat that process between a few hundred people per server and you'll find that 560M from TW pay in one whole week is nothing. Even if the seller bought gold from the AH, that gold is "outside money" which doesn't sink any coin except the tax from actually using the AH, which is negligible in this case. From the server's perspective, these tokens and thus coins ARE raining out of the sky for free, and at a much higher rate than TW pay.

your assuming everything will go smoothly (in this case smoothly badly) the economy is like a freeway, its not 100% steady flowing, it jams up every day and burps, shats, and farts at diff. times

Lenore - Harshlands

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

your assuming everything will go smoothly (in this case smoothly badly) the economy is like a freeway, its not 100% steady flowing, it jams up every day and burps, shats, and farts at diff. times

How is that assuming it will go smoothly? It isn't even going badly. That's just how the market is right now. Many people are making money in the game this way. I wouldn't say it's bad...for them. But it's bad for what some people insist needs to be fixed (gold prices). Even if it "jams" what I explained is the mechanics, the cars driving along, and they will drive along jammed or not, just at a different rate.

SovereignVis - Sanctuary

This looks like a really bad idea. b:sad I thing this will be the end of PWI. If you wanted to minimize the occurrence of dishonest or fake bids, you should just make it so that each guild that wants to bid must have a set number of members in the guild. For example: A level 1 guild can have a total of 50 members, but to bid for a TW the guild must have at least 40 members or more. For a level 2 guild you need 80/100 and a level 3 guild 160/200. People are not going to go through all the trouble of getting that many members if they are just going to make dishonest or fake bids. Only guilds that are serious about TWs will build up enough members to bid on a TW. The reward for winner TWs should stay the same. The chance of being sent Medal of Glory could be added, but players would prefer coins over Mirage Celestones. This will just make it harder for newer guilds to enter TWs. I hope people read this and vote to change it. I hope this is not the end of PWI. b:cry

Chasee - Archosaur

Bunches of people are leaving PWI, ie. Archosaur server it is so empty, people who stay there don't even wanna do bh, fc or any quest that provides exp. This patch affect it so badly. I think a month it is so much time to solve this problems. I really hope GMs do their jobs and afford the voice community

Indiri - Archosaur

Filter circumvention is a banable offence - Ary

Theo - Raging Tide

Funny thing that I have noticed (side-effect of this already crappy patch) has anyone constantly been d/cing? or more then often now?

Rofl_mancer - Lost City

I just want to let you know how I feel about your game after all these updates. It completly sucks now, the updates are anti-player and made not to challenge us but to drive off people who actually take time to enjoy the game. And serious before you release a patch why dont you not only fix the bugs, but also fix those bugs in your heads because this lag is so bad I take 1 step and d/c after logging in for the 10th time. Stop trying to please us with this **** and actually monitor the suggestion box, the only way you people can actually make this game better is by actually paying attention to those who play the game. So either give up your job to someone who knows what to do, or get off your *** and listen to us.

XxTefnutxX - Heavens Tear

SovereignVis - Sanctuary wrote: »

This looks like a really bad idea. b:sad I thing this will be the end of PWI. If you wanted to minimize the occurrence of dishonest or fake bids, you should just make it so that each guild that wants to bid must have a set number of members in the guild. For example: A level 1 guild can have a total of 50 members, but to bid for a TW the guild must have at least 40 members or more. For a level 2 guild you need 80/100 and a level 3 guild 160/200. People are not going to go through all the trouble of getting that many members if they are just going to make dishonest or fake bids. Only guilds that are serious about TWs will build up enough members to bid on a TW. The reward for winner TWs should stay the same. The chance of being sent Medal of Glory could be added, but players would prefer coins over Mirage Celestones. This will just make it harder for newer guilds to enter TWs. I hope people read this and vote to change it. I hope this is not the end of PWI. b:cry

good idea but wont work ppl have alts that can equal up to a full guild b:surrender

Sun_Burn - Lost City

wrong post

NightRage - Raging Tide

Sun_Burn - Lost City wrote: »

wrong post

It doesn't, frankieraye is a damn troll.

Edit: What did you do?

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear

Maragon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

according to the database the odds of a best luck is 1.7% which means PWI makes 100 dollars for every 10 mil put in the economy.

the thing is, Deceptisar, when a person does not hit that small percent coin may be lost to him but not to the economy. Its just moved to someone elses pocket. but of course the coin is really only going to a few people be it from getting best luck of from buying the packs or gold to get the packs.

Her point is logical though. If you knew that you had 5 million tw pay coming this week you are more likely to spend money on luxury items. As opposed to the gambler who doesn't know and will only spend til they are comfortable with what coins they've got left. That being said the ppl who have the steady income (tw) in the game are more liklely to spend coins than people who do NOT have a steady income. *this is just logic* If people buy packs via the cash shop, the ONLY person who profits from that is PWI, (unless of course they get the lucky big ticket item). In that case money does NOT change hands from person to person on the server, its goes straight from your hands to the company.

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

Deceptistar, I've seen you a lot on the forums and you've made many logical posts, but this post shows how little you thought this through. More people buy packs than they profit IN COIN if they buy packs from cat shops, but the coin they spent buying the packs doesn't disappear from the server, they just exchange hands to the person selling the packs. Say I buy 100 packs for 450K each, that's 45M worth of coin I spent. I win 4 tokens which I cash in for 20M total, so I "lost" 25M in coin. However the person I bought the packs from has my 45M, and I have my 20M, which totals up to 65M coin on the server from our transaction. Where did the person selling the packs get them? Well, he could have just spent $90 to buy 100 packs, which is his own money and did not cost the server any coin. So in that transaction alone, the server "spawned" 20M of coin and a stash of tokens. Repeat that process between a few hundred people per server and you'll find that 560M from TW pay in one whole week is nothing. Even if the seller bought gold from the AH, that gold is "outside money" which doesn't sink any coin except the tax from actually using the AH, which is negligible in this case. From the server's perspective, these tokens and thus coins ARE raining out of the sky for free, and at a much higher rate than TW pay.

I've heard of ppl who bought 200 packs and won nothing but tokens from them. Most people use the tokens, not resell. Those reselling the tokens are those buying them at a discounted rate and reselling them. In this case, there is no money generated or spend within the server whatsoever as far as tokens are concerned. As I said above, those who have a steady pay are more likely to spend money. Much like the real economy. No smart person goes out and spends 100.00 on lottery tickets knowing they have no job or income.

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

How is that assuming it will go smoothly? It isn't even going badly. That's just how the market is right now. Many people are making money in the game this way. I wouldn't say it's bad...for them. But it's bad for what some people insist needs to be fixed (gold prices). Even if it "jams" what I explained is the mechanics, the cars driving along, and they will drive along jammed or not, just at a different rate.

None of it is going smoothly, thats for sure. Mostly b/c no one will try to enjoy the game. Its a constant complaint fest. I'm not saying there isn't reason to complain, even tho personally I don't have a complaint. Just saying that in every area of this game right now its tough. The market is jacked. No one knows what to do with the shake up of TW pay being dropped. My guess is even those who got TW pay have quit spending so much coin on luxury items.

SoIar - Dreamweaver

I just say all of this is ....meh -_-

Michael_Dark - Lost City

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Her point is logical though. If you knew that you had 5 million tw pay coming this week you are more likely to spend money on luxury items. As opposed to the gambler who doesn't know and will only spend til they are comfortable with what coins they've got left. That being said the ppl who have the steady income (tw) in the game are more liklely to spend coins than people who do NOT have a steady income. *this is just logic* If people buy packs via the cash shop, the ONLY person who profits from that is PWI, (unless of course they get the lucky big ticket item). In that case money does NOT change hands from person to person on the server, its goes straight from your hands to the company.

You're really not looking at the bigger picture. Many people who buy gold and sell it do it just so they can buy the event items from other people who have won them from packs, because realistically, you won't get something you're looking for out of a pack unless you're really lucky. It doesn't matter who buys the packs or who buys the gold... as long as gold is sold someone will buy it and some of them will buy packs further compounding the problem. TW pay is meaningless compared to the coin generated by either pack sales or gold sales.

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

You're really not looking at the bigger picture. Many people who buy gold and sell it do it just so they can buy the event items from other people who have won them from packs, because realistically, you won't get something you're looking for out of a pack unless you're really lucky. It doesn't matter who buys the packs or who buys the gold... as long as gold is sold someone will buy it and some of them will buy packs further compounding the problem. TW pay is meaningless compared to the coin generated by either pack sales or gold sales.

yes, but even so...

The fact remains that TW people actually have a salary. The rest of us try to merch and not always is it successful every day. However; if you are in a very good, strong, TW winning faction you know every week you are going to get pay. You are more at leisure to let go of coin.

Those who do not belong to said faction, dont have that luxury. Unless they are cash shoppers who do not tw. Deceptistar is right in the aspect that TW spenders spend more in the in game economy than anyone else for the most part. Their pay is genuinely guaranteed. Like Enrage people on HT server. They own most of the map.. their pay just stacks up and it would take something totally drastic to stop that. At this point, I'm not sure it can be stopped.

The fact is.. as I said before. In real life if you have a good paying job you are more likely to spend money on leisure. If you don't have a good paying job and live pay check to pay check you buy what is needed, not wanted. The same applies to in game economy.

I know we don't see eye to eye on most things, but you have to give her credit this is one thing she's right about.