[Discussion of Territory War Changes 8-5-10]

Michael_Dark - Lost City

NightRage - Raging Tide wrote: »

When a new server opens, gold is always at an extremely low price. This is because nobody has coins to afford gold. As time goes on and more and more people start getting coins, the gold buyers realize they can raise their selling price for gold.

It really has nothing to do with gold sellers realizing they can sell their gold for more, demand is what sets the buy/sell prices.

truekossy

Yreccils - Harshlands wrote: »

Hello,

I don't know how things worked out on Heaven's Tear in the beginning, I only speak from my Harshland experience. While there was still territories without any owners (I think I started to play on HL when half the map was still blank) the gold price was at 90k each.
Server started out. Gold was naturally low because nobody on the server had much in terms of coin yet.
It was rising to 115k until all territories were taken and then jumped to about 200k when there was only 3 factions left on the map and as that general situation remained the same, the gold price was more or less fixed arround that amount +-30k at some points.
Chest of Coins released. 1 mil = 5 gold, so the minimum price for gold became around 200k.

TW really had nothing to do with what you saw. As stated before, prior to the release of chest of coin with TW going on for 10ish months on the old system, a "massive" price for gold was when it spiked to 150k during major sales and Jolly Jones events. Then Chest of Coin came out and that set the floor on gold to 200k. We were annoyed but it wasn't too unbearable and chests still had some use for the occasions where you could buy gold for below 200k, so it wasn't a complete slap in the face. Then packs came out ad gold jumped from 200k to 500k for the first release.

Now with TW out for... 10 months, we saw a change of 40k in gold prices, or what amounted to a 50% increase over almost a year.

Yet with Chest of coins? 80% increase. Anni packs? Doubled price. Both overnight as compared to what TW pay failed to achieve in almost a year on the old system. So it's no surprise when the older players are looking at PWI and calling them out on their bull.

Oh and anyone else remember the idea of going to Raging Tide for a fresh start free of cash grabbi-- OH LOOK ORACLES IN THE CASH SHOP! LET'S BUY OUR LEVELS!

Mendolin - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

It really has nothing to do with gold sellers realizing they can sell their gold for more, demand is what sets the buy/sell prices.

thank god someone else understands how the economy works b:surrender

truekossy

Mendolin - Sanctuary wrote: »

thank god someone else understands how the economy works b:surrender

If people in this thread understood that, we wouldn't have anyone supporting these patch changes and actually beleaguering PWI's goal was to lower gold prices, combat inflation, or whatever drivel they plan on using as an excuse.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

It really has nothing to do with gold sellers realizing they can sell their gold for more, demand is what sets the buy/sell prices.

Yup, and PWI has a knack for creating demand. They dont actually care about gold pricing on the servers. They just want ppl to buy buy buy gold. This of course then ups the demand curve & the price raises, as a side effect. Basically to lower gold price, PWI needs to lower demand, but that means less profit, and they cant have that no can they?

Mendolin - Sanctuary

truekossy wrote: »

If people in this thread understood that, we wouldn't have anyone supporting these patch changes and actually beleaguering PWI's goal was to lower gold prices, combat inflation, or whatever drivel they plan on using as an excuse.

lol QFT

i thought it was insulting that they try to say that's their goal xD i would have respected them a little more if they just said 'look... TW coins were providing a source of income for many players, allowing them to get the things they need without charging zhen and see... we are just not ok with that- we would like and encourage you to charge zhen b:thanks thank you and have a nice day ^^' or better yet 'deal with it- charge zhen or GTFO b:bye'

Yreccils - Harshlands

truekossy wrote: »

TW really had nothing to do with what you saw. As stated before, prior to the release of chest of coin with TW going on for 10ish months on the old system, a "massive" price for gold was when it spiked to 150k during major sales and Jolly Jones events. Then Chest of Coin came out and that set the floor on gold to 200k. We were annoyed but it wasn't too unbearable and chests still had some use for the occasions where you could buy gold for below 200k, so it wasn't a complete slap in the face. Then packs came out ad gold jumped from 200k to 500k for the first release.

Now with TW out for... 10 months, we saw a change of 40k in gold prices, or what amounted to a 50% increase over almost a year.

Yet with Chest of coins? 80% increase. Anni packs? Doubled price. Both overnight as compared to what TW pay failed to achieve in almost a year on the old system. So it's no surprise when the older players are looking at PWI and calling them out on their bull.

Oh and anyone else remember the idea of going to Raging Tide for a fresh start free of cash grabbi-- OH LOOK ORACLES IN THE CASH SHOP! LET'S BUY OUR LEVELS!

The 200k mark was reached on HL before the chest of coins was introduced in masses. I remember that other servers had prices of 150k/gold at the time when we already reached 200k. The chest of coins was considered a reason why the price doesn't go back under 200k anymore even though there was only a useless (or even no? I don't remember) sale during the week.

Now don't misunderstand me. I didn't say that the new TW-system will make everything better and lower the gold-price to old standards or anything like that. I barely countered someone saying that the new system is bad for the economy. It is for a fact improving the general situation for the average player, even if only by a bit.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

If you know nothing I guess you should either shush or leave before everyone starts flaming you.

p.s are you Frankie's alt?

Oneji - Heavens Tear

When is thread going to burn and die? GMs are not even responding(UNLESS THEY ARE UNDERCOVER AS NORMAL PLAYERS)to thisb:laugh.

Yreccils - Harshlands

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you know nothing I guess you should either shush or leave before everyone starts flaming you.

p.s are you Frankie's alt?

I know my personal experiences and I'm concluding logical arguments from it. If you're not able to prove me wrong and point out how I'm wrong, it's you who should shush and leave. I don't care about flamers since I can just ignore them if their posts lack any valid point.

And no, but does Frankie play HL?

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

GMs cannot respond because they cannot answer us.

LeirtA - Lost City

For those who keep telling the ones who come into the forum to try and fight for changes to the game to adapt or leave. I would love to be here when the day comes and its your turn to be screwed over by PWE and then I'll try not to say 'I told you so'. How many of you thought this day wouldn't come, i.e. your turn to be royally screwed by PWE? Just keep on thinking that as long as you keep charging Zen they wouldn't do that to you, their paying customer.

It is in their interest to drive the end game players off. Why? because end game players can farm all their needs while spending minimal real life money. It is the up and coming players and the ones who are caught in between, those are the big spenders. Level 70, get TT gear. Level 80, get new TT gear and start refining. Level 90, get new TT gear again and refine again, this time higher refines plus OH LOOK PACKS! Let's gamble and maybe I can get that piece of uber gear. Level 100, get TT gear, refine more and farm nirvana. Now this is the stage where you as a player stops giving them as much money as you used to. Of course they want you gone because you are not a very good paying customer anymore.

If they hadn't shot themselves in the foot by coming up with so many ways for players to rush to end game, the contribution to their company would have been more consistent and lasted longer because players had to take time to level to end game. With so many ways to level to end game, the ones who could afford it of course wouldn't let up and just rushed. PWE doesn't see their games as a long term viable business. It's best to milk it for what it's worth and move on to another one. New games, fresh start, more spending.

If no one takes a stand now regardless if any changes resulted from it, who's going to stand up and speak for you when the day comes that you're the one being screwed? This way, at least something is done by the community as a whole. What would the world be like now if everyone had just stood by and let Adolf Hitler had his way?

The only way evil will win is when the good people do nothing.

Don't say I didn't tell you so.

P/s I am doing my part now by posting in MMO sites and game forums on this situation. If PWE won't listen to us, maybe we can stop others from getting sucked into this scam.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

The logical conclusion is : Packs and CoC raises gold price more than TW pay.... I dare say that 200k-400k overnight is alot more increase over time than 120k-200k over a few weeks/months.

_Mango - Archosaur

Although I try to stay relatively optimistic.. I have a feeling you guys could care less. I think you have opened these threads to give a false sense of hope to people. They are right the discussion about the Anni Packs blew up as well and you forced it down our throats and now it is mainstream. Tell me how many of you know how hard it is to get Lunar capes the real way.. and how many of you have even attempted to final boss in Lunar?

You will do the same with this. Proof is in the pudding GMs and you guys are only crowd control and appease the masses I don't see how you have effectively done anything beneficial for PWI other than keep us quiet or at bay. Genius part about all of this is that we all will put our 2 cents in on this subject, nothing will change, those people will quit - you guys win. This false sense of hope you are instilling in people that 'maybe' we will get the old pay scale and bidding back is shameful in my opinion.

Am I the only one seeing you all for what you really function as? You're just a filtration system for the big cheese behind the scene, they see money thats it.

I'll play my part and put my 2 cents in but mark my words, nothing will change.

truekossy

_Mango - Archosaur wrote: »

I think you have opened these threads to give a false sense of hope to people.

Not even that. They make these threads so that instead of having several topics, they can stick everything into one thread. Then later it can be destickied and closed and there's nothing we can do about it.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

I lol'd at that. b:chuckle

Yreccils - Harshlands

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

The logical conclusion is : Packs and CoC raises gold price more than TW pay.... I dare say that 200k-400k overnight is alot more increase over time than 120k-200k over a few weeks/months.

I never said TW would rise it more. I fully agree with your post here.

LeirtA - Lost City

truekossy wrote: »

Not even that. They make these threads so that instead of having several topics, they can stick everything into one thread. Then later it can be destickied and closed and there's nothing we can do about it.

They cannot desticky and close the threads in other game sites and forums.

Remmi - Raging Tide

NightRage - Raging Tide wrote: »

Stocks keep dropping dropping dropping. b:chuckle

Keep it up guys. b:laugh

Serious investors tend to shy away from stocks that drop 1/3 of their value in one year. Especially when the bussinesplan has as it's main goal to convert the main money making branch into an industry that has no market.
Erratic changes in stock value caused byactions of eager and stupid bussines executives out to make a quick buck, just makes the stock useful for speculation, not investment.
Unfortunately the bussines executives and marketing people don't seem to understand their consumers as people, just as sales numbers. That may be the main reason why they suck at their job so much. I can't wrap my mind around it why the president of this company hasn't sacked the lot of them yet.

LeirtA - Lost City

Remmi - Raging Tide wrote: »

Serious investors tend to shy away from stocks that drop 1/3 of their value in one year. Especially when the bussinesplan has as it's main goal to convert the main money making branch into an industry that has no market.
Erratic changes in stock value caused byactions of eager and stupid bussines executives out to make a quick buck, just makes the stock useful for speculation, not investment.
Unfortunately the bussines executives and marketing people don't seem to understand their consumers as people, just as sales numbers. That may be the main reason why they suck at their job so much. I can't wrap my mind around it why the president of this company hasn't sacked the lot of them yet.

Because he's also a greedy, money grabbing SOB?

Scathatch - Harshlands

[forum] No one CS til they fix the patch, or at least PRETEND to listen/care about the customers.

_Mango - Archosaur

Remmi - Raging Tide wrote: »

Serious investors tend to shy away from stocks that drop 1/3 of their value in one year. Especially when the bussinesplan has as it's main goal to convert the main money making branch into an industry that has no market.
Erratic changes in stock value caused byactions of eager and stupid bussines executives out to make a quick buck, just makes the stock useful for speculation, not investment.
Unfortunately the bussines executives and marketing people don't seem to understand their consumers as people, just as sales numbers. That may be the main reason why they suck at their job so much. I can't wrap my mind around it why the president of this company hasn't sacked the lot of them yet.

+1 Remmi, and to endorse that after all the money I have put into the game (yeah I casually cash shop) I will never put another dime in this game until they change this stuff. I hope the stocks dropping will be enough for them to change something because us ******** isn't doing it. I especially want to see the UI go back to normal, geeze man I can barely stand reading chat anymore. Sometimes I feel like we are beta testers except we pay them to do it.. fml.

Maragon - Dreamweaver

ok so i do expect to get flamed for this post but thats ok

personally, I think the change in TW reward is a step in the right direction for a few different things. yes it should help to bring down gold prices, however the current reward I will admit is a joke. so what do I think the reward should be?
well if we do mirages maybe for a lvl 3 territory it should be more like 4000 mirage. and that only as part of the reward.

reward suggestion for a lvl 3 territory:
4000 mirage
4000 tokens
land holder fashion (expires when u do not own land)
land holder cape (expires when no land is owned and has increasing stats based on number of lands owned up to say 5)
different benefit for individual territories (if the land containing TT is held a squad leader in that faction opening TT can open Epic mode more mobs all [?] for every TT harder bosses but bigger reward as an example and then if that person is no longer leader the instance will time the squad out.) if all territories had a particular unique benefit I think it would really increase teh interest in TW

but yes the current reward is, well, they might as well have taken it out all together.

also, as far as the coin problem I have 2 characters for the developers "//". devs please place // in front of any game code having to do with best tokens being traded for a 10mil note. PLEASE

Mendolin - Sanctuary

Maragon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

ok so i do expect to get flamed for this post but thats ok

personally, I think the change in TW reward is a step in the right direction for a few different things. yes it should help to bring down gold prices

i wont flame you but i will ask a task of you- please explain HOW gold will go down because of the TW reward change.

myself and others have justified how it makes no difference and that compared to other things in this game, it makes very little difference in gold prices. i have yet to see someone explain HOW gold will go down because the TW reward change, only stand behind it and claim it as truth.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Mendolin - Sanctuary wrote: »

i wont flame you but i will ask a task of you- please explain HOW gold will go down because of the TW reward change.

myself and others have justified how it makes no difference and that compared to other things in this game, it makes very little difference in gold prices. i have yet to see someone explain HOW gold will go down because the TW reward change, only stand behind it and claim it as truth.

because tw pays are the biggest coin providers atm. Erase that and u get a much more poor economy where pple need to adjust the cost accordingly. Unlike a real life poor economy where prices HAVE to be jacked up in some cases, PWI prices are only jacked up because it CAN be (aka greed)

basically with all that coin gone the competition between gold BUYERS have fallen.

_Mango - Archosaur

Maragon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

ok so i do expect to get flamed for this post but thats ok

personally, I think the change in TW reward is a step in the right direction for a few different things. yes it should help to bring down gold prices, however the current reward I will admit is a joke. so what do I think the reward should be?
well if we do mirages maybe for a lvl 3 territory it should be more like 4000 mirage. and that only as part of the reward.

reward suggestion for a lvl 3 territory:
4000 mirage
4000 tokens
land holder fashion (expires when u do not own land)
land holder cape (expires when no land is owned and has increasing stats based on number of lands owned up to say 5)
different benefit for individual territories (if the land containing TT is held a squad leader in that faction opening TT can open Epic mode more mobs all [?] for every TT harder bosses but bigger reward as an example and then if that person is no longer leader the instance will time the squad out.) if all territories had a particular unique benefit I think it would really increase teh interest in TW

but yes the current reward is, well, they might as well have taken it out all together.

also, as far as the coin problem I have 2 characters for the developers "//". devs please place // in front of any game code having to do with best tokens being traded for a 10mil note. PLEASE

Before you make an assessment with this level of naivety I suggest you read through every single post. TW Pay does not inflate the economy at all in comparison to Best Luck Tokens. You need to go read through all the posts.... *sigh*

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

_Mango - Archosaur wrote: »

Before you make an assessment with this level of naivety I suggest you read through every single post. TW Pay does not inflate the economy at all in comparison to Best Luck Tokens. You need to go read through all the posts.... *sigh*

one of them is a steady non-changing income. One of them is based purely on someones luck. If best of luck was a steady factor like the weekly tw coins then yeah it would be a problem. Most of all pple buy more packs than they profit out of best of lucks 99% of the time.

_Mango - Archosaur

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

because tw pays are the biggest coin providers atm. Erase that and u get a much more poor economy where pple need to adjust the cost accordingly. Unlike a real life poor economy where prices HAVE to be jacked up in some cases, PWI prices are only jacked up because it CAN be (aka greed)

basically with all that coin gone the competition between gold BUYERS have fallen.

learn the current game mechanics before you make some kind of assessment like this. First off have you counted up how many Best Luck Tokens go out each day (24 hours)? It is equivalent of TW pay of the whole map which is given once a week. You should, if you plan to stabilize, start with Best Luck Tokens. Stop pointing your finger at TW pay!

Maragon - Dreamweaver

Mendolin - Sanctuary wrote: »

i wont flame you but i will ask a task of you- please explain HOW gold will go down because of the TW reward change.

myself and others have justified how it makes no difference and that compared to other things in this game, it makes very little difference in gold prices. i have yet to see someone explain HOW gold will go down because the TW reward change, only stand behind it and claim it as truth.

I did not read the rest of the thread. I dont have that much time.
Now, you will notice that I said it would "help" it will not fix the problem. When the packs were introduced gold sky rocketed. which is why I said they should at least get rid of the best luck to 10 mil option. again personally I more be more then content if the packs just disappeared all together to never return. That should help too.

Another problem is the people that just buy and sell gold. If they were not making money off it they would not do it. since this money must come from somewhere the gold price must necessarily be going up. maybe we should have a limit to how much gold can be bought and sold a day.

I didnt say the TW reward was the only problem nor did I say it was the only solution. But gold priced jumped 100% on the introduction of packs. Obviously that was a problem. However, gold had already topped 200k at that time. I started this game in april '09. when I started gold was about 100k. something caused gold to double in 5-6 months that had nothing to do with packs. people complained then but the shock factor was not there because of the time span. I dont know what caused this. people that buy/sell gold? maybe. more likely it was coin coming into the economy from where i am not sure. From people I have talked to I have never heard anyone talk about gold being less then 75k-80k. if that is true gold prices rose 25%-30% in the time that PW began in fall '08 over a period of 6-8 months. the major influx of coin into the economy then was DQs I would guess. during that time the map was being conquered. after a while much of the map had been conquered and the map began producing more money then it took to maintain the battles between the factions (TW bidding and repairs) causing influx into the economy. This is why I think the price of gold doubled in about 6 months when in the beginning it rose much slower. TW now pumps hundreds of millions into the economy. the more money in the economy the higher prices will be.

As more money is created in the economy unless there are proportionally more goods produced (in this case gold) prices will go up. We have already seen the reverse with molds. after BH it didnt take long for the price of molds to plummet. Why? because instances were being run so much more that there were far more molds in the system. the difference between molds/coin ratio and gold/coin ratio is who is buying and who has the coin. The people (on most maps where a couple factions dominate) that buy molds are the average player most of which get the majority of their coin from places other than best luck and TW. sure they buy some gold here and there. the people in those few factions that dominate receive the gold from TW. Where does it go? a percent goes to repair. I do think that some minor coin compensation may be in order for land owning factions for repairs. for those who do not use cash for charms much of the rest goes to buying charms or buying gold to buy charms. as these elite factions have more money they will be willing to spend more on gold for charms thereby increasing the price. Now just as with the molds theres another side. with molds the supply:demand ratio went up causing a lower price. the amount of coin the average player has has remained about the same with a larger supply of molds means lower cost of molds. The people that buy gold I would guess are either the people that receive the coin from place such as TW or best luck or those that buy/sell. Their coin income is higher then the average player because of the extra sources. therefore more coin with the same supply means increased prices.

If TW coin causes it to increase the reverse will happen if that coin is lowered. less coin working on the same supply demand ratio means lower prices.

I do not know if that last paragraph made sense. Also I will admit I may be completely wrong. but like I said before something caused the inflation rate of gold to increase dramatically well before packs.

So what happened at packs? the value of the contents of a pack was on average worth more then the price of gold causing demand to go up and thus the price to inflate.

Also, and I am not directing this at anyone as I did not read the thread because it is so long. I am attempting to provide a solution and fix the issue. Might it be a bad solution? sure but I am attempting. In these threads most o what is posted is QQ. instead of that try to post a suggestion instead of just a bunch of complaining.

@ Mango there are 1800 posts. Please point me to a post or page that gives unwavering proof that TW pay has no part in the issue

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

_Mango - Archosaur wrote: »

learn the current game mechanics before you make some kind of assessment like this. First off have you counted up how many Best Luck Tokens go out each day (24 hours)? It is equivalent of TW pay of the whole map which is given once a week. You should, if you plan to stabilize, start with Best Luck Tokens. Stop pointing your finger at TW pay!

like i said;
Most of all pple buy more packs than they profit out of best of lucks 99% of the time. How many packs do u think pple open on AVERAGE to get an even profit out of them? Each pack is bought with gold or coins, each one of them opened thats not a win looses money.

You are assuming something like every 10 packs someone gets a best of luck which is total BS, ask any cash shopper. Unless you are referring to some super lucky 1/200 person that got some continous lucky streak wins...

Your just focusing on the results of the packs, and forgetting that these packs just dont appear out of nowhere free. (unlike tw pay that just rains from the skys FREE) There is a reason why pple call the packs a GAMBLE. because u hope to get a lucky profit out of the ones u loose money opening. (compared to selling the packs outright or getting a win)