Demon Or Sage ??

Bowlinbob - Lost City

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

i dunno why some dont go for balance :<

i was just putting examples >: im hybrid myself, (50 vit, thinking about raising to 75)

RedsRose - Lost City

Bowlinbob - Lost City wrote: »

i was just putting examples >: im hybrid myself, (50 vit, thinking about raising to 75)

b:surrender Vit Cleric since level 100.

8.6k HP and 9.2k Pdef buffed FTW b:dirty

Oh and 100% Sage b:cute

YuYuu - Dreamweaver

sage is for full suport, demon for DD
i like more support, sage is the best path for me b:victory

RedsRose - Lost City

YuYuu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

sage is for full suport, demon for DD
i like more support, sage is the best path for me b:victory

Sage's can DD just fine. If Sage's did not, then they would not be able to kill the first 3 bosses in Rebirth Delta Waves 1 and 2.

Magiere - Dreamweaver

Sage \o/
IF base is only 35% heal the extra 10% heal does make a huge difference
Since its not actually 10% stronger, but more like 20-30% stronger.

Or in numbers with my current matk:

Sage = 6209 HP heal each stack.
Demon = 5096 HP heal each stack.

now stack is like up to 5times possible?
Yay for sage 31k heal vs demon 25k heal. b:victory

2nd reason, i love sage WieldThunder..whats the best way to win PK?Spark.
I can get 3 sparks in less than 30 seconds.
In my opinion Sages are actually better DD's cos of that.


PS : reds show me your defense gears O.O, 9k pdef with only cleric buff?

Bowlinbob - Lost City

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

b:surrender Vit Cleric since level 100.

8.6k HP and 9.2k Pdef buffed FTW

Oh and 100% Sage b:cute

yea..i dont got da money to get those stats :P (as discussed) but then again ur 100 and im not <_<

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

Sage's can DD just fine. If Sage's did not, then they would not be able to kill the first 3 bosses in Rebirth Delta Waves 1 and 2.

no one is saying that a sage cant dd, demons are just better. Thats just like saying a demon cant heal a party, they can, sages are just better.

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage \o/
Cos sage IH is 28,57% stronger than demon b:victory
IF base is only 35% heal the extra 10% heal does make a huge difference

Or in numbers with my current matk:

Sage = 6209 HP heal each stack.
Demon = 5096 HP heal each stack.

now stack is like up to 5times possible?
Yay for sage 31k heal vs demon 25k heal. b:victory

PS : reds show me your defense gears O.O, 9k pdef with only cleric buff?
Rose posts her stats fully buffed <.< -barb & bm lvl 11 buffs(i think)-

As Ive stated, Ive never once had a problem healing a party due to lack of healing power. tbh I think lvl 11 (demon or sage) is just over the top/ not needed. but the 10% is just a waste. the member isnt going to die if they dont have it

Magiere - Dreamweaver

Bowlinbob - Lost City wrote: »

As Ive stated, Ive never once had a problem healing a party due to lack of healing power. tbh I think lvl 11 (demon or sage) is just over the top/ not needed. but the 10% is just a waste. the member isnt going to die if they dont have it

Try going Lunar Glade before its changed Herzen Sori is fun to heal, or warsong

Why do people keep saying Demon's are better DD's?
I can spark way more = more dmg than demon.
I can debuff longer = more dmg for me and full squad.

RedsRose - Lost City

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

PS : reds show me your defense gears O.O, 9k pdef with only cleric buff?

b:chuckle I said fully buffed....I think without buffs about 6.5-7k with mine and more with Sage Vanguard when I use. If I changed a few things I could prob get close to it with self-buff. But I am waiting to see how Nirvana turns out.

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Try going Lunar Glade before its changed Herzen Sori is fun to heal, or warsong

b:shocked Warsong....b:sweat

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Bowlinbob - Lost City wrote: »

no one is saying that a sage cant dd, demons are just better. Thats just like saying a demon cant heal a party, they can, sages are just better.

every player to themselves. :d
But i have to admit pple think that way alot during RB solo stage. Lotta melee linger around shooting the boss stage 1 till 50% and im like WTF get digging, foo'. Apparently they been doing alot with clerics that need help half way attacking regardless demon or sage.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

every player to themselves. :d
But i have to admit pple think that way alot during RB solo stage. Lotta melee linger around shooting the boss stage 1 till 50% and im like WTF get digging, foo'. Apparently they been doing alot with clerics that need help half way attacking regardless demon or sage.

Deceptipoo take qui to RB for chrono quest b:begb:sad

(also sell qui charm )

Lemuria - Harshlands

I'm going demon for several reasons, but heres the main ones...

MP regen on Ironheart. Seriously, this one skill alone practically decides the choice for me. When curing barbs and other melee's, they'll massively appreciate the extra help.

Fast revive! If, god forbid, someone dies in the middle of fight its a real pain to revive them since the channelling time is long and your tank needs cures. Halving the channel time is a massive time saver and means you're back to healing almost before anyone realises someone died.

Sage is nice, but its mostly simple stuff like extra cure power. Having Wellspring on a faster time would be nice, and so is the def bonus on Vanguard, but the former is survivable without and the latter needs to be spammed to be of any real use, same goes for chanelling bonus on magic shell.

The one skill im sorely going to miss out on though is Spirits Gift. That one has serious potential. You can effectively use it to recover your MP, since it restores more mana back than it requires to cast! That being said, demon version gives a whopping damage bonus, so it won't be missed too badly...

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Lemuria - Harshlands wrote: »

MP regen on Ironheart. Seriously, this one skill alone practically decides the choice for me. When curing barbs and other melee's, they'll massively appreciate the extra help.

Condensed Mana Potion ▼
Restore MP 330
Restore Time MP 10 sec.
Level Required: 20

If a barb or any melee for that matter, QQs over an amount that can be gained by a lv20 mana pot. ............good lord.

ill personally buy tons of those lv20 pots, manually hand them over to the melee, say ima demon cleric, and save me millions in demon IH

Bowlinbob - Lost City

tbh id like demon ironheart for myself if id ever get it.

(i think) it would be cheaper/faster Chi generating instead of blessing of purehearted

since the mana effect stacks the same way the heal does id find it usefull building chi on myself.

Bowlinbob - Lost City

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

Sage's can DD just fine. If Sage's did not, then they would not be able to kill the first 3 bosses in Rebirth Delta Waves 1 and 2.

i wanted to revisit this :P

Demon vs Sage for PvP.

after looking over both, its a matter of how you pk. I believe Sage is for longer lasting battles(constantly building chi to spark over and over), while demon is get in, kill as fast as you can, and scoot(with accelerated channeling with spark, pew pew pew, zoom zoom).

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Bowlinbob - Lost City wrote: »

tbh id like demon ironheart for myself if id ever get it.

(i think) it would be cheaper/faster Chi generating instead of blessing of purehearted

since the mana effect stacks the same way the heal does id find it usefull building chi on myself.

i was wondering if there was like an archer/bm/barb that could actually test this stacking? Need to cut down all MP regeneration including, gear stats, buffs, and character stats and see if over the 15sec, if in fact it stacks. This would mean it needs to regen more than 300 per 15sec, subtracting the natural mp gain and any other factors.

Bowlinbob - Lost City

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

i was wondering if there was like an archer/bm/barb that could actually test this stacking? Need to cut down all MP regeneration including, gear stats, buffs, and character stats and see if over the 15sec, if in fact it stacks. This would mean it needs to regen more than 300 per 15sec, subtracting the natural mp gain and any other factors.

unno, I had a cleric ironheart me one time a while ago after i emptied my mana pool.

the difference in the rate of mana regen when cast 1 time vs continually casting IH was quite noticable. I wanna say a few hundred mana per tick when it was being cast over and over on me, but it was a while ago.

all i remember is i emptied my pool twice. had her heal me with ironheart once, not stacking it, and noted the time it took to fill my bar comepletely. (I had her recast it after the first one wore off)

then the second time i had her spamming IH and my bar filled WAY faster.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Bowlinbob - Lost City wrote: »

unno, I had a cleric ironheart me one time a while ago after i emptied my mana pool.

the difference in the rate of mana regen when cast 1 time vs continually casting IH was quite noticable. I wanna say a few hundred mana per tick when it was being cast over and over on me, but it was a while ago.

all i remember is i emptied my pool twice. had her heal me with ironheart once, not stacking it, and noted the time it took to fill my bar comepletely. (I had her recast it after the first one wore off)

then the second time i had her spamming IH and my bar filled WAY faster.

cleric wizzy and veno probably is a bad example due to buffs and high MAG, you need to get rid of all the factors that get in the way, possibly archers or bms might be good if they can swap in some +MP gear

Bowlinbob - Lost City

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

cleric wizzy and veno probably is a bad example due to buffs and high MAG, you need to get rid of all the factors that get in the way, possibly archers or bms might be good if they can swap in some +MP gear

I rly dont see the difference, except to calculate the exact MP per sec..

but what I did was just to prove that it does indeed stack.

/edit: Im totally guessing.. but you could probably spam heal an uncharmed archer while he/she is barraging, and she would never have to pop a mana potion.

RedsRose - Lost City

Bowlinbob - Lost City wrote: »

tbh id like demon ironheart for myself if id ever get it.

(i think) it would be cheaper/faster Chi generating instead of blessing of purehearted

since the mana effect stacks the same way the heal does id find it usefull building chi on myself.

Keep in mind though with Demon IH -->

400 Mana to cast to recover 300 Mana over 15 seconds -.-

Building Chi for Demon imo would be better suited for Demon's WellSpring since it only takes 275 Mana with 20% more chi with each cast.

Sage uses Blessing for Chi often because the mana cost is lowered by 25% of 275.

Bowlinbob - Lost City wrote: »

i wanted to revisit this :P

Demon vs Sage for PvP.

after looking over both, its a matter of how you pk. I believe Sage is for longer lasting battles(constantly building chi to spark over and over), while demon is get in, kill as fast as you can, and scoot(with accelerated channeling with spark, pew pew pew, zoom zoom).

DD and PvP much different

but I think you are right in your analysis in the broad sense.

Bowlinbob - Lost City

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

Keep in mind though with Demon IH -->

400 Mana to cast to recover 300 Mana over 15 seconds -.-

Building Chi for Demon imo would be better suited for Demon's WellSpring since it only takes 275 Mana with 20% more chi with each cast.

yea 400 mana with 300 regen, but atm i got lvl 5 blessing of the purehearted so for me personally it would be better x-x

as for welspring 20% more chi is like... 2-3 more chi per cast? (i think wellspring is 10 chi a cast unno) but i want welspring, that heal could use a boost in dungeons <_<


and with the DD/PvP stuff, Sage vs Demon "DD" in pve i think would be roughly the same, sage probably better due to its chi gain skill/vanguard spirits' bonus(early good bonus damn u, i gotta wait til 99 QQ)

Kyrozoan - Sanctuary

well i choose demon because of the extra mana pool on IH
the fast rez time, 40 meters doesnt do much of a difference >.>
no chi used when purifying
shorter cool down on some skills and faster channeling(which means more dmg)

Lemuria - Harshlands

If a barb or any melee for that matter, QQs over an amount that can be gained by a lv20 mana pot. ............good lord.

ill personally buy tons of those lv20 pots, manually hand them over to the melee, say ima demon cleric, and save me millions in demon IH

I think you're rather missing the point. It's a heal, first and foremost. But any CURE which also restores fair quantities of MP as well is well worth having. Considering that many high level barbs have only around 1.5k MP anyway, thats a good 5th of their entire MP pool recovered. Then consider that IH is often stacked on itself and that MP pots take a short while to recover your MP and stacks with this effect anyway...

Nothing wrong with wanting more out of your heals.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

2nd reason, i love sage WieldThunder..whats the best way to win PK?Spark.
I can get 3 sparks in less than 30 seconds.
In my opinion Sages are actually better DD's cos of that.


PS : reds show me your defense gears O.O, 9k pdef with only cleric buff?

Would this because you can build chi and get sparks faster?You can use genie to build up chi and and strip you of it.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Lemuria - Harshlands wrote: »

I think you're rather missing the point. It's a heal, first and foremost. But any CURE which also restores fair quantities of MP as well is well worth having. Considering that many high level barbs have only around 1.5k MP anyway, thats a good 5th of their entire MP pool recovered. Then consider that IH is often stacked on itself and that MP pots take a short while to recover your MP and stacks with this effect anyway...

Nothing wrong with wanting more out of your heals.

when your high enough IH heals like well over 5k of HP. Take 10% of that as a bonus addition with sage IH. Id rather a me and a barb worry about better survival than a handy mp recovery that can be potted easily with a lv 30 or above pot.

Maragon - Dreamweaver

Why should the tank/BM rely on us for their mana regen. Consider a lvl 90 barb. TT90 footwear +4 mana regen. tauren cape +3 mana regen. sage feral regeneration +10 mana regen that +17 right there. if they want to go with slightly older gear use natures breath necklace +7 more. I have this last one on my 68 barb and love it I nearly never run out of mana, I can tank a full bh51 straight through all 3 bosses without using a single pot.

I know BMs dont have the possibility of feral regen but they can still get some.

And to Decep that suggested lvl 30 mana pots. You are right that is plenty. They have a cooldown of what 10 seconds and a barb holding down FR is not gonna use 330 mana in 10 seconds. The cooldown of demon FR is shorter than sage at 2.5 seconds and a cast time of .2. They can get in not quite 4 FR per second and use an average of 260 mana in 10 seconds. Thats 70 mana to spare. Also its not like these are hard to come by. I used a veno to farm mid mats for my crafting and have hundreds of these lvl 30 pots i use to supply my barb.

SilentBless - Heavens Tear

Maragon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why should the tank/BM rely on us for their mana regen. Consider a lvl 90 barb. TT90 footwear +4 mana regen. tauren cape +3 mana regen. sage feral regeneration +10 mana regen that +17 right there. if they want to go with slightly older gear use natures breath necklace +7 more. I have this last one on my 68 barb and love it I nearly never run out of mana, I can tank a full bh51 straight through all 3 bosses without using a single pot.

I know BMs dont have the possibility of feral regen but they can still get some.

And to Decep that suggested lvl 30 mana pots. You are right that is plenty. They have a cooldown of what 10 seconds and a barb holding down FR is not gonna use 330 mana in 10 seconds. The cooldown of demon FR is shorter than sage at 2.5 seconds and a cast time of .2. They can get in not quite 4 FR per second and use an average of 260 mana in 10 seconds. Thats 70 mana to spare. Also its not like these are hard to come by. I used a veno to farm mid mats for my crafting and have hundreds of these lvl 30 pots i use to supply my barb.

y cant barb just bring mp pots? problem solved.

Lemuria - Harshlands

when your high enough IH heals like well over 5k of HP. Take 10% of that as a bonus addition with sage IH. Id rather a me and a barb worry about better survival than a handy mp recovery that can be potted easily with a lv 30 or above pot.

If IH heals over 5k of HP at your level, and you STILL need that extra 10%, then you have the single WORST tank in the history of tanks. Seriously. I can understand your point, having more cure power is never a bad thing, but then neither is having the MP regen. Its a tradeoff, but one which is well worth it in my opinion.

Think about it for a second. Extra healing power, which comes anyway via stacking and Wellspring casts and should NOT be necessary with a half-decent tank or MP recovery which effectively reduces self-IH casts to 100mp in cost (since you recover 300mp and it costs 400mp), making it incredible for soloing on top of regenerating the barbs MP letting them cut loose with far more skills than usual.

Why should the tank/BM rely on us for their mana regen?

No one said anything about relying on it. But if a cleric can effectively give barbs a FREE mp potion, then wheres the harm? In the end you contribute more to your squad, since heals are more than covered as we have an arsenal of HP restoring skills at our disposal. We have ONE single MP regen skill covered by sage, and thats Spirits Gift. Darned powerful too but I'd miss the massive damage bonus offered by the demon equivalent. Having MP regen on a skill we cast anyway is like getting something for nothing.

I'm not saying one is better than the other since its two sides of the same coin. But for me, clerics have more than enough curing skills and abilities that losing 10% additional HP really isn't that devastating.

Bowlinbob - Lost City

-looks at poll-

i dont think there is a wrong option, go on ecatomb and look at the skills and decide which you like the most.

RedsRose - Lost City

Lemuria - Harshlands wrote: »

If IH heals over 5k of HP at your level, and you STILL need that extra 10%, then you have the single WORST tank in the history of tanks. Seriously. I can understand your point, having more cure power is never a bad thing, but then neither is having the MP regen. Its a tradeoff, but one which is well worth it in my opinion.

Think about it for a second. Extra healing power, which comes anyway via stacking and Wellspring casts and should NOT be necessary with a half-decent tank or MP recovery which effectively reduces self-IH casts to 100mp in cost (since you recover 300mp and it costs 400mp), making it incredible for soloing on top of regenerating the barbs MP letting them cut loose with far more skills than usual.

No one said anything about relying on it. But if a cleric can effectively give barbs a FREE mp potion, then wheres the harm? In the end you contribute more to your squad, since heals are more than covered as we have an arsenal of HP restoring skills at our disposal. We have ONE single MP regen skill covered by sage, and thats Spirits Gift. Darned powerful too but I'd miss the massive damage bonus offered by the demon equivalent. Having MP regen on a skill we cast anyway is like getting something for nothing.

I'm not saying one is better than the other since its two sides of the same coin. But for me, clerics have more than enough curing skills and abilities that losing 10% additional HP really isn't that devastating.

I think u need to level up a bit more and try some more intense instances. I say this because the extra 10% makes a huge difference later on...Think high level instances and TW Cata squads. Healing barbs at your level is not (imo) difficult. Not to knock your opinion, but in all honesty that extra 10% heal saves you, the Cleric, mana and can often give you that extra second or two in case something goes wrong.


Overall, both paths are based off of play style more then anything else. But to call a Barb fail because of an extra 10% shows inexperience imo. b:surrender

Bowlinbob - Lost City

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

I think u need to level up a bit more and try some more intense instances. I say this because the extra 10% makes a huge difference later on...Think high level instances and TW Cata squads. Healing barbs at your level is not (imo) difficult. Not to knock your opinion, but in all honesty that extra 10% heal saves you, the Cleric, mana and can often give you that extra second or two in case something goes wrong.


Overall, both paths are based off of play style more then anything else. But to call a Barb fail because of an extra 10% shows inexperience imo. b:surrender

i forgot about cata clerics, lol.

<- usually on a DD team when we do TW, -not built for a cata cleric-b:avoid