Archer replaced by Assassin?
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Ok my time to say my opinion.
PvE
Archer>Assassin
I think everyone agrees with that.
PvP
Tricky one.
Whoever attacks first wins in my opinion.
Let's say that assassin attacks archer. 2 things can save that archer's life:
1) Lvl 60 genie with absolute domain
2) Archer keeps pressing Wings of Grace
Actually, the third one is combined.
I'm speaking from personal experience with my lvl assassins.
If they attack me and I don't notice, I'm dead.
If I notice then I pound on Wings of Grace. Typical assassin's attack on archer is: teleport>sleep>stun (right?).
Basically pray that he misses, wings of grace/absolute domain, drop, stun, metal damage...whatever...
That's my opinion and experience.
I'm lvl 71 archer (Lost City) btw so I can only speak of ppl my lvl and my experience.
Thank you.
~Morph~0 -
OK I concede that a sharptooth arrow is effective against WB but you can just pull up a level 69 archer with a level 6 sharptooth to do that.
I have both an archer and an assassin. Although I'm only early midgame/midgame, nowhere near end game, I can already tell that assassins will be much better. Most of archers skills suck in the long run due to the lack of damage by percentage. All they have to rely on is criticals in the end. Assassins have the same criticals while having huge percentage damage from sparks. The only skill that I see on an archer that an assassin does not have is a decent AoE.
@XMorphlinGx
Archer !> Assassin in PVE. The common belief is that both have their place. If you are going to 1v1 a mob -.-, Assassins will kill faster than you.
PvP
If a decent assassin at the same level with same refines gets the first hit on you, you will die. You're not going to get saved. You can absolute domain or w/e but they have the same as well while having better stuns. In a fair 1v1, you still probably would die. If you get the drop on them, GJ you can do what any other class can do.0 -
sins and archers play total different roles. sins are a close range fast killer and if you know what your doing with them aka not to lazy to make apoth powders they can be very efficient little killers at close range without the need of pots or charms.
archers should also use powders at low levels later on they will be unneeded being they will kill quickly before the mob even get to you. archers are simply a ranged killer where a sin has to get close. this can be very bad for you in some boss fights. where a archer can stay out of aoe range. they both are high dd classes with only caster types being more powerful in non crit hits. but the archers always has the ranged advantage.0 -
Assassins can kill mobs without getting hit too you know b:victory that is what there range attacks are for ( a few of their skills aren't just melee range but 4.5 meter ranged skills were they are outside of normal melee range.
and no they wont replace archers completely but they are very similar.
a lot of games the assassin/ranger class is an archer and uses daggers for melee pwi just has them split in two b:chuckle0 -
EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »...
@XMorphlinGx
Archer !> Assassin in PVE. The common belief is that both have their place. If you are going to 1v1 a mob -.-, Assassins will kill faster than you.
...
Yea they will and they'll also use MP and HP potions a lot.
Speaking for myself of course, I use Wind and The Clouds in PvE.
Normal shots on my lvl mobs. Occaisonaly I have to use Cold arrow (66MP).
Other than cold arrow, I don't use any attacks other than normal and kill them before they even hit me.
In that way archer is better in PvE than assassin in my opinion.
As far as AoE goes, I don't use them. Too much mana for nothing. (speaking about normal grinding)
So having said all that, my grinding comes down to getting exp and drops, using potions on a rare occasion (increased life mob) and getting potions from the grind.
As for PvPing assassin, they can hit hard, but you're forgetting one thing: they have great accuracy but we have great evasion meaning, they're bound to miss sometime. Hopefully at the beginning.0 -
I use next to no MP pot since I just double spark every mob. I only use HP pot if my HP actually dips that low. My HP and MP pot usage of my assassin after level 59 is no different than my archer, next to none.
Assassins have both accuracy and evasion just like an archer. You have no advantage here. If an assassin actually worries about missing you, they'll toss on a misty like the rest of the melee characters. Also, assassins can put the battle on pause with sleep and invisibility so that their stuns can recharge.0 -
As for PvPing assassin, they can hit hard, but you're forgetting one thing: they have great accuracy but we have great evasion meaning, they're bound to miss sometime.
My 80 BM had little trouble hitting high 8x/low 9x Archers, and he had about 3600 accuracy.
My assassin has 5504 accuracy. You ain't dodging anything unless it's by luck.0 -
Evasion is not working well on these game.
And about assassin and archer in pve, i say archer better.
It true assassin can kill very fast, but they repair cost still a lot than archer that able to avoid getting hit (except if the mob is ranged) and archer does not need epic gear if they just do pve.
Archer is 2nd cheapest for pve, 1st of course venomancer.
Btw i think these debate about who the best on pve is not needed . . . b:surrender[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0 -
Archers wanna know Assassin's biggest weakness? My 80 Assassin has less than half the physical defense of my 80 BM, 1k less HP...and slightly less magic defense than my unmarrowed BM. Yes, my HA, magic ornament-equipped BM has higher magic defense than my LA, physical defense ornament-equipped Sin.
With smart marrow/genie usage, my BM could generally survive nasty attacks from people 15+ levels higher than him, long enough to stunlock until a real DD came along and killed them. A Sin's only saving grace is our 25% dmg negation buff and Deaden Nerves. I'm seriously considering building for Heavy Armor even though I know it'll take a hefty chunk out of my damage, just because I hate being so ******n squishy.0 -
All in all everyone has weak spots in PvPing other classes.
For archers it's barb with a charm (if he has 2 spark for armageddon, archer is a goner even without the charm), sometimes BM, assassin, HA Veno with nix and, as every other class, a 90+ wizard.
For assassins it's charmed barb (same as archer), BM (that opponent is very hard to kill with an assassin-no magic attacks), 90+ wizard, HA Veno with nix.
So archers and assassins are pretty much the same as PvPing goes in my opinion, but on 1on1 (archer vs assassin) I'd bet on assassin, although I managed to get away from sin's stun a few times.0 -
Death_Tide - Heavens Tear wrote: »I would beg to differ. Sins with the proper gear and bloodpaint will be able to tank bosses quite efficiently, especially the high atk/sec build.
They would need some pretty amazing endgame gear to tank hh99/lunar glade bosses in mele range as LA armor. Blood paint wont help if you get 1-2 shoot.
Reason why archers are used as tank is b/c many bosses deal pretty low dmg when u range tank them such as belial and several 3-2 and 3-3 bosses. Also you need a range tank to avoid party getting aoe-slept in many cases. If u mele tank high lvl bosses they hurt like hell and you would need a barb or a well geared cash shopped BM to get enough phy def + hp.
Alltho that fist/claw archer on Dreamweaver mele tanks hh99 bosses in LA armor lol. So im guessing a 99+ assassin with similar cash shopped refined gear would be able to do the same, specially if they have sage spark with 20% dmg reduction. But obviously not a sin with average gear, they would get 1 shoot.0 -
Comparing an Archer to an Assassin is like comparing a barb to a cleric. the two classes are just not the same. They have completely different tasks, and are skilled completely differently. Saying that "only things needed at end game are clerics barbs and Assassins is false also. Blademasters far surpass their own stature in high end TW, as well as high HP boss hunting with the uses of Roar of the pride and Heavens Flame. Archer's, have the classic enormous over powered skills such as Barrage of Arrows, Stormrage Eagleon, and a slew of Elemental attacks that would make a wizard blush. Barbarians, you just cant kill them, and with Armageddon, the true ender skill, you'll more than likely die in a single shot if, of course they manage to hit you. Wizards, pure out, elemental damage per strike.
Saying that classes wont be "needed' is false. No class is better than any other, and with high end heavy armor reaching far beyond daggers ability to "DPS" on them, you're going to find it difficult to pierce 28k pdef with no elemental attacks, even if you do hit as fast as a fist bm auto attacks without cyclone heel.
Sure, Sins do massive damage, but dont state that any other class wont do the same thing, as an Assassin, your goal is simple, Hinder, impeed, slow, destroy. Other classes goals are similar, but at times, much much more effective. Ever been stunlocked by a bm? its not a friendly time. Ever been faced down by a barb using Invoke? bye bye dps, hello Damage over time. Ever been bludgeoned to death by big effing rocks by a wizzy? It hurts! b:cry Slowing down an enemy, doesnt stop them, they can still skill, and Archers still do impressive dps from close range if they use their skills properly.
Sure, Assassins can do great damage before the enemy sees you, but if they do see you, you better have a plan, because its Just like an archer, if your being chased by a big burly barb, or bm, and they get a hold on you, you better start praying. They may not be able to out "DPS" you, but they can still bring the pain, and you'll know you tangled with one when your done.
Ultimately, Unfortunately, High end damage, will still, always belong to Clerics. Highest single skill damage in the game, with next to no sacrifice. I dont see any class being replaced, in fact some of the "useless classes" have great need at end game, bm's become tankers just as good as barbs, barbs become spike damage machines. Archers get insane Long ranged damage.
I dont see anyone being replaced, not even the stalwart veno.
But to put in an exclimation point.. Sins do have a great ability to solo bosses that archers lack, just today I solo'd bh Ferren with little more than lvl 50 cleric buffs. I think, in my own personal experience between archers vs Sins, Sins dont have the stopping power an archer does, simply due to the lack of elemental attacks, and In PK, a smart player will win out no matter what, however, the archer has a slight advantage, they can inflict massive Damage over time on you and gtfo if they have holy path, because they have more than one simple Bleed DoTApparently its more difficult to milk a smurf than originally conceived..0 -
Psudeotrophe - Dreamweaver wrote: »Archer's, have the classic enormous over powered skills such as Barrage of Arrows, Stormrage Eagleon, and a slew of Elemental attacks that would make a wizard blush.
wtf?
Stormrage Eagleon is a pile of ****, 2 sparks for slow and a metal DoT WOOHOOO. This is the worst DoT in the game that requires sparks. Every other sparked DoT gives immediate fixed or x00% weapon damage add-on in addition to the DoT, or they have some additional effect -> see Piercing Winds, Firestorm, Sunder, Frost Scarab.
This is the difference between archer elemental attacks and wizard elemental attacks: archer attacks deal base damage + addon damage, wizard attacks deal base damage + x00% weapon damage + addon damage, making wizard non-DoT nukes always higher and have much better endgame potential.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »wtf?
Stormrage Eagleon is a pile of ****, 2 sparks for slow and a metal DoT WOOHOOO. This is the worst DoT in the game that requires sparks. Every other sparked DoT gives immediate fixed or x00% weapon damage add-on in addition to the DoT, or they have some additional effect -> see Piercing Winds, Firestorm, Sunder, Frost Scarab.
This is the difference between archer elemental attacks and wizard elemental attacks: archer attacks deal base damage + addon damage, wizard attacks deal base damage + x00% weapon damage + addon damage, making wizard non-DoT nukes always higher and have much better endgame potential.
○Stormrage Eagleon
Range Ranged Attack
Mana 550.0
Channel 1.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds
Weapon Ranged Weapons
Requisite Cultivation Master of Discord
A magical bird of prey dashes at your enemy, inflicting Metal damage
equal to base physical damage. Lasts 30 seconds, during which the enemy
suffers 12000.0 Metal damage and is slowed by 30%.
Requires 1 arrow, bolt or unit of shot.
Requires two Sparks
Demon version only lasts 15 seconds, but slows the enemy by 50%.
thats 12k damage in 15 seconds which is the most monumental Damage over time skill in the entire game.
●Stormrage Eagleon
Range Ranged Attack
Mana 550.0
Channel 1.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds
Weapon Ranged Weapons
Requisite Cultivation Master of Harmony
A magical bird of prey dashes at your enemy, inflicting Metal damage equal
to base physical damage. Lasts 30 seconds, during which the enemy suffers
12000.0 Metal damage, is slowed by 30%, and has a physical and
magic defense reduction.
Requires 1 arrow, bolt or unit of shot.
Requires two Sparks
Sage version reduces target's physical and magic defense by 20%.
I fail to still see how this is a, as you so eloquently put it, a pile of ****.Apparently its more difficult to milk a smurf than originally conceived..0 -
But I believe what makes the skill almost useless is the pvp reduction and the fact that it costs 2 sparks. Those sparks could be used to cast barrage or say demon spark (since demon SE has been mentioned) which would be far more devastating that a 15 second metal DoT with pvp reduction.
Now if you say that the DoT wont suffer the pvp reduction, then it makes sense but otherwise no.0 -
Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »But I believe what makes the skill almost useless is the pvp reduction and the fact that it costs 2 sparks. Those sparks could be used to cast barrage or say demon spark (since demon SE has been mentioned) which would be far more devastating that a 15 second metal DoT with pvp reduction.
Now if you say that the DoT wont suffer the pvp reduction, then it makes sense but otherwise no.
no other dot has that much skill damage
●Piercing Winds
Range Melee
Mana 140.0
Channel 0.2 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 15.0 seconds
Weapon Poleblade, Pike, or Club
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad
Fiercely attack all enemies in a 12.0 meter line. Inflicts
base damage plus 4863.0 and causes the enemy
to bleed, suffering 4863.0 physical damage over 15 seconds.
Has a chance to cast without consuming Spark.
Requires one Spark
Sage version gives a 25% chance to cast without consuming Spark.
thats only 9726 damage, including dot which ultimately ends up being 5kish.
●Sunder
Available in tiger form
Range Melee
Mana 220
Channel 0.6 seconds
Cast 2.5 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds
Weapon Axe, Poleaxe, Hammer or Polehammer, Unarmed
Requisite Cultivation Master of Harmony
The full force of one's vigor is unleashed with this
swirling blow. Attack all enemies within 12-meter-radius
around you, dealing base physical damage plus 200%
of weapon damage and causing them to bleed. Bleeding enemies suffer
9245.0 damage for 30 seconds, during which you absorb 5200 HP.
Requires two Sparks
Sage version always recovers a total of 6666 HP.
Same as piercing wind.
●Frost Scarab
Range 27.0meters
Mana 215.0
Channel 1.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 15.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Magic Instruments
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad
Throw an icy bug at the enemy, inflicting Wood damage equal to base
magic damage plus 100% of weapon damage plus 5135.0.
Has a 80% chance to inflict frostbite on the target, causing
it to suffer 5135.0 water damage over 9 seconds and decreasing speed
by 40%.
Requires one Spark
Sage version always has a 95% chance to inflict frostbite.
has an 80% chance to inflict, hmm... but does 10270 ifthe dot hits.
Eagelon still over powers it, and in pk it will still deal massive damage which far surpasses "Nix" bleed skillsApparently its more difficult to milk a smurf than originally conceived..0 -
Psudeotrophe - Dreamweaver wrote: »no other dot has that much skill damage
●Piercing Winds
Range Melee
Mana 140.0
Channel 0.2 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 15.0 seconds
Weapon Poleblade, Pike, or Club
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad
Fiercely attack all enemies in a 12.0 meter line. Inflicts
base damage plus 4863.0 and causes the enemy
to bleed, suffering 4863.0 physical damage over 15 seconds.
Has a chance to cast without consuming Spark.
Requires one Spark
Sage version gives a 25% chance to cast without consuming Spark.
thats only 9726 damage, including dot which ultimately ends up being 5kish.
●Sunder
Available in tiger form
Range Melee
Mana 220
Channel 0.6 seconds
Cast 2.5 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds
Weapon Axe, Poleaxe, Hammer or Polehammer, Unarmed
Requisite Cultivation Master of Harmony
The full force of one's vigor is unleashed with this
swirling blow. Attack all enemies within 12-meter-radius
around you, dealing base physical damage plus 200%
of weapon damage and causing them to bleed. Bleeding enemies suffer
9245.0 damage for 30 seconds, during which you absorb 5200 HP.
Requires two Sparks
Sage version always recovers a total of 6666 HP.
Same as piercing wind.
●Frost Scarab
Range 27.0meters
Mana 215.0
Channel 1.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 15.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Magic Instruments
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad
Throw an icy bug at the enemy, inflicting Wood damage equal to base
magic damage plus 100% of weapon damage plus 5135.0.
Has a 80% chance to inflict frostbite on the target, causing
it to suffer 5135.0 water damage over 9 seconds and decreasing speed
by 40%.
Requires one Spark
Sage version always has a 95% chance to inflict frostbite.
has an 80% chance to inflict, hmm... but does 10270 ifthe dot hits.
Eagelon still over powers it, and in pk it will still deal massive damage which far surpasses "Nix" bleed skills
I have BOLDED the parts which make all these skills superior to a Stormrage Eagleon.
12k Metal DoT damage for 2 sparks < 4863 instant damage + 4863 phy dot at the cost of 1 or no spark
12k Metal DoT damage for 2 sparks < 9245 phy DoT damage + 200% weapon damage and getting healed for 5200 (6666) hp for 2 sparks
12k Metal DoT damage for 2 sparks < 5135 instant dmg + 100% weapon damage + 5135 water damage over 9 seconds using just 1 spark.
If you modify SE to give the attack an instant damage like the others or even the weapon damage bonus, then its worth considering.
Now compare that **** to the following
○Barrage of Arrows (Demon)
Range Ranged Attack
Mana 655
Channel 1.5 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds
Weapon Ranged Weapons
Requisite Cultivation Master of Discord
Consuming 655 mana every 3 seconds, release countless arrows
into the sky delivering devastating damage to the target and enemies within
a 12.0 meter radius of the target, inflicting base physical damage
plus 200% of weapon damage plus 6639.0. Skill will not
stop until you click cancel button or press ESC.
Requires 3 arrows, bolts or units of shot per iteration.
Requires two Sparks
Demon version reduces the interval between attacks by 0.5 seconds.0 -
Psudeotrophe - Dreamweaver wrote: »
I fail to still see how this is a, as you so eloquently put it, a pile of ****.
Just think about it. It'll be people like him trying to replace us archers. Needless to say... our future is secured.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
@Psudeotrophe
The fact that archers do not have many skills with damage that is based on percentages is why they lose effectiveness end game. Assassins will always doing damage based on percentages. Btw assassins are a lot more capable than you give them credit for. No assassin is going to just stand there and get hit by a barb when they are reducing all damage by 90%. I shouldn't even need to say that. Archer's elemental attacks are good early to mid game. But they also lose effectiveness end game.
BTW Stormrage Eagleon is a **** skill no one should need to tell you this either.0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Just think about it. It'll be people like him trying to replace us archers. Needless to say... our future is secured.
Kiyoshi has been an archer for quite some time and he does know what he is saying.
But if these sins wanna replace archers, by all means go ahead. I lulz at them looking emo with bows at bosses with aoes. And that pathetic 20 range that the bow offers, will still hurt them.
My suggestion: Let them replace us and see how well they fare.
Edit: Archers skills are not the strongest point. Our normal shots are. Coupled with crits and speed with distance, those skills are just icing on a cake.0 -
Yes archers skills are not your strong point but rather normal shots. The thing is assassins do the same but much better. Minus the distance.
I'm only 67 right now but AoEs do hurt or even 1hko unless I have decent cleric buffs. I have to spam instant heal potions and genie skills.0 -
EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »Yes archers skills are not your strong point but rather normal shots. The thing is assassins do the same but much better. Minus the distance. I'm only 67 right now but AoEs do hurt or even 1hko unless I have decent cleric buffs. I'll just have to spam instant heal potions and genie skills.
Oh please replace us, mighty fishies.
I will lulz when the time is here for you TT runs. AOE bosses now hit 1.2 to 2k. b:chuckle0 -
That's it 1.2-2k damage? I'm considerably less worried now. So far I can Deaden Nerves and I get 2 minutes to hit at the boss without worrying about an unlucky ohko. Those two minutes I'm up there is the same as 6 minutes of an archer attacking.0
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Giodia, don't you have anything better to do than bash on Tideborn all day, every day?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »That's it 1.2-2k damage? I'm considerably less worried now. So far I can Deaden Nerves and I get 2 minutes to hit at the boss without worrying about an unlucky ohko. Those two minutes I'm up there is the same as 6 minutes of an archer attacking.
It's actually more than that. Coz the aoe that comes near the end are faster and higher in damage.
Not even a BM and a Barb survives that without clerics.
Cleric = first to die
Archer= 2nd b:victory
BM = third
barb= last.
and that's like with less than 2% of total HP left.
It definitely came fast and furious. I was dead within 6 seconds.0 -
Ephemerai - Sanctuary wrote: »Giodia, don't you have anything better to do than bash on Tideborn all day, every day?
I think it was fun for her.
Btw, i don't think assassin will replace archer.
They don't have skill for it < these alone is enough to say that.
And it much better to not saying you will replace other class . . . b:surrender[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0 -
Ephemerai - Sanctuary wrote: »Giodia, don't you have anything better to do than bash on Tideborn all day, every day?
Excuse me madame, I believe I'm providing vital info to some who is near to TT stage.
Now if you will excuse me, I need to go back to the discussion.
Thank you very much for your time.b:bye0 -
MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »I think it was fun for her.
Btw, i don't think assassin will replace archer.
They don't have skill for it < these alone is enough to say that.
And it much better to not saying you will replace other class . . . b:surrender
To be frank, it's not fun getting flames for every damn thing you say.
What I do dislike with intensity is classes telling older classes that they are replaced or talks of class supremacy.0 -
Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »To be frank, it's not fun getting flames for every damn thing you say.
What I do dislike with intensity is classes telling older classes that they are replaced or talks of class supremacy.
Well, maybe it because your post for tideborn sound like bashing to people. b:surrender
Yeah, me too don't get why people saying their class will replace other class. . .
maybe it just start from a little argue between people in game then one of them start a thread here ?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0 -
Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »To be frank, it's not fun getting flames for every damn thing you say.
What I do dislike with intensity is classes telling older classes that they are replaced or talks of class supremacy.
I've been playing an archer before my assassin. From my experience the assassin is overall better than my archer. No class will be fully replaced because people will always play a class that they are biased towards. My point is that assassins are capable of being better than an archer can ever be for the most part. You can disagree and continue to play your archer or w/e you play, it makes no difference to me. I'm just posting for those who do care and and those who care to turn this into a discussion and perhaps prove me wrong.0
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