The Real Cost of Catshopping
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IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »It has to do with the phases of the moon, or so I heard....
No clue. oh wait, Saitada answered you.
XD
that was the first thing that came to me mind lols.
b:chuckledarthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me. Aryannamage: I don't think I am a GM that would be new.
Hawk:Do this. closing thread
frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows.//Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope..
Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
Waiting for...Hamster Packs!
58% chance to get tokens
41% chance to get an all class pet hamster....but they has already been freed by the magic hamster.
1% chance to get ban hamstered with the message "Hamsters United!"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Whats AGW?
Don't forget to read post 150
it started a new page before I could post. :<
Regards0 -
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yeah, it's me. Don't read to much into it, though; I'm only here for myself now, killin' time and chillin' when need-be. So sue me. Tch...0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »The thing I want people to take from this thread is that catshops are stupid..
Why did you not just say that as your OP? I mean, it is useful to know that you can be carbon neutral while AFK catshopping just by breathing half of the day, while holding your breath the other half, and that exercising is bad for the environment, but it would had saved us all lots of typing and reading if you were to just had typed that.Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Whats AGW? Sounds like some sort of root beer to me. Am I the only one who has never heard that?
I put a variety of equivalencies of just the wasted electric power (cost in USD, in homes that could be generated, and in emissions of CO2).
Wasted electric power was just one of the costs that people dont think about with catshops and I had another post which enumerated others:
- oppurtunity cost in that you could be doing something else in PWI or with your computer
- cost in bandwidth for the server
- cost in making arch covered in annoyingly placed shops
Being a forum junkie I will say I am a fan of interesting topics and think it is great my post sparked so much discussion. The thing I want people to take from this thread is that catshops are stupid. Catshops reward stupid behavior that is both wasteful and annoying.
AGW = Anthropogenic global warming (warming of the planet caused by human activities).
wasted electric power... it is only wasted to you, to others it is used as they want it to be used.
c02 emmisions: c02 is a minor greenhouse gas and not a major actor on the environment. Contributer, yes. But not a very big one.
-oppurtunity = I have several accounts, I run one to keep a shop open to sell/buy with, and when I play PWI I usually do so from my primary system. So I am doing multiple things in PWI at the same time.
-bandwidth costs are part of the business.0 -
darthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me. Aryannamage: I don't think I am a GM that would be new.
Hawk:Do this. closing thread
frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows.//Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope..
Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
Waiting for...Hamster Packs!
58% chance to get tokens
41% chance to get an all class pet hamster....but they has already been freed by the magic hamster.
1% chance to get ban hamstered with the message "Hamsters United!"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Wow you really thought that was a commonly known acronym? What websites have you been reading?Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »AGW = Anthropogenic global warming (warming of the planet caused by human activities).
To say this you would have to prove people are capable in thinking of terms of power consumption.wasted electric power... it is only wasted to you, to others it is used as they want it to be used.
The government sees co2 as something important enough to be taxed. It's up to you what value you see in dumping 4 tons of co2 per server per week into the air.c02 emmisions: c02 is a minor greenhouse gas and not a major actor on the environment. Contributer, yes. But not a very big one.
You having to manage several accounts is a cost (since doing that is more annoying than having one). That computer that is running the catshop could be doing other things or it could be off.
-oppurtunity = I have several accounts, I run one to keep a shop open to sell/buy with, and when I play PWI I usually do so from my primary system. So I am doing multiple things in PWI at the same time.
-bandwidth costs are part of the business.
Bandwidth is not in unlimited supply and surely there is a more efficient usage of bandwidth than running cat shops.
Try seeing things from an engineering perspective. For an engineer a glass is not half empty or half full but rather the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
Catshops are wasteful, clutter up arch, and the community (and planet) would be better served by an overhaul of the AH or other catshop alternatives.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »397.
That's how many AFK catshops I just counted in Arch at the time of this posting in Sanctuary. 397 computers left on to idle without any direct use by people.
-Ast
Bored much?0 -
I do find your idea promising of having a logged off version of a afk cat shop. Would save electric power and hopefully some server bandwidth. Good thing this game still is free for me. Internet and electricity are implied part of the renting negotiations between myself and my landlord and as close to as free as possible being I can use as much or as little as I want and result in no change.
So I encourage all the readers who play Heavens Tear to still buy from WallMats, WallMold, WallGenie and the others with secret names b:laugh until a development in the game allows me to do this and save my landlord some money.
RAWR! I'm a tiger[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Wow you really thought that was a commonly known acronym? What websites have you been reading?To say this you would have to prove people are capable in thinking of terms of power consumption.
The government sees co2 as something important enough to be taxed. It's up to you what value you see in dumping 4 tons of co2 per server per week into the air.
You having to manage several accounts is a cost (since doing that is more annoying than having one). That computer that is running the catshop could be doing other things or it could be off.
Bandwidth is not in unlimited supply and surely there is a more efficient usage of bandwidth than running cat shops.
Try seeing things from an engineering perspective. For an engineer a glass is not half empty or half full but rather the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
Catshops are wasteful, clutter up arch, and the community (and planet) would be better served by an overhaul of the AH or other catshop alternatives.
AGW is a common acronym used by global warming proponents.
People generally think in terms of financial burden. When something starts to cost them more than they feel it is worth, they stop doing it, or get rid of it etc.
Do you believe everything your government says? Taxes you for? Do you believe everything your told? Governments are only honest and believable when they can't get their pockets filled with special interest monies. They are also only as good as the information they receive. If that information is doctored or otherwise non-factual then they can't make accurate choices (Iraq weapons of mass destruction being one example). The United States Government stopped being believable a long long time ago.
My having to manage multiple accounts is less annoying to me than loosing time doing things with my main characters because I want to sell stuff. So to me the cost is reversed, it costs me more annoyance to run one account and have downtime from playing so I can sell, than having three accounts and no downtime playing due to sales.
My computer that is currently running my cat shop is doing other things, it's playing music for me to listen to while PWI and my catshop is minimized. Even if it wasn't doing anything other than running a catshop, it would still be worthwhile to me to have it running. The value is in the eye of the user. Just because YOU don't see a value doesn't mean I don't see one.
Bandwidth is not unlimited correct, but a company like PWI knows what it costs for them to run and make a profit. If the costs begin to show an imbalance, they will correct it. So for all intents and purposes, Bandwidth is unlimited until it isn't.
I don't disagree with you that there could be a more efficient manner for buying and selling things in PWI. This is one of the things I would love to see fixed. A good Market system similar to another game I play would go a long way towards helping PWI reduce clutter.
An engineer might say the glass is larger than it needs to be, but does the engineer not also consider the possibility that the glass is exactly the size it needs to be because the water level may rise and overflow a smaller glass that fits the current volume?
~Saitada0 -
I thought it was pretty well-known acronym too. Most of the major news and science magazines use it.Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Wow you really thought that was a commonly known acronym? What websites have you been reading?
That's what I did. I figured it'd cost me about 25 cents of electricity to keep an extra computer on for a day with a cat shop. In a day my shop typically makes me 2-4 million profit, which at current gold prices is equivalent to about $5-$10. So for me it was a no-brainer to run a cat shop instead of spending RL money on the game.To say this you would have to prove people are capable in thinking of terms of power consumption.
(The computer also acts as my file server, so it's on most of the time anyway. As for the environmental impact, nearly all the electricity where I live comes from hydro.)
Bandwidth is not something you can conserve. If your ISP's capacity is 1 Gbit/sec, and all their users only use 500 Mbit/sec, they cannot "save up" the extra 500 Mbit/sec for use at a later time. If the extra capacity isn't used in that moment, it's wasted and gone forever.Bandwidth is not in unlimited supply and surely there is a more efficient usage of bandwidth than running cat shops.
Anyhow, the traffic for the game is trivial compared to things like streaming video and peer to peer filesharing.
Agreed. Despite all the cat shopping I do, I would move everything over to AH in a heartbeat if they overhauled it so you could do many of the things you can do with a cat shop on it.Catshops are wasteful, clutter up arch, and the community (and planet) would be better served by an overhaul of the AH or other catshop alternatives.
I also think they should let you access AH from anywhere. So you can actually do stuff during time sinks like World Quest.0 -
Lets Have A Virtual Hippie Riot Through All Of Pwi.NO MOUNTS EITHER. Thats animal cruelty.
.. b:surrender
yeah......[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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You have to keep in mind that
A) People grinding, questing, playing etc. also take up vast amounts of computer usage.
You're not leaving your computer on 24/7. My personal average is about an hour or two a week. I'm sure some of the heavy catshoppers have 20-40h, maybe some more extreme catshoppers more than that. But no one's going to be catshopping near 168h.
C) There are other afk activities you can do while running PW. You have to divide the amount of energy used by the amount of benefit running your computer overnight gives you. AKA torrents, catshops in other games, etc.
Also, though an offline catshop would be convenient, it would cost lots of strain on the servers. More importantly, if they were actual physical catshops, going through arch would be near impossible.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »397.
That's how many AFK catshops I just counted in Arch at the time of this posting in Sanctuary. 397 computers left on to idle without any direct use by people.
Let's assume each of these computers is consuming a modest 100W (the same as two light bulbs). That's 6,670 kWh every week (over $800 USD of electricty) going to these cat shops. That is just absurd.
Imagine if we could save that.
- We would save enough energy to power 52 homes.
- We would prevent 3.97 tons of weekly carbon dioxide emissions
- We would have the equivalent carbon offset of planting 20,384 trees (enough trees to cover 34 acres of rainforest)
These numbers are for Sanctuary alone.
The benefit of eliminating cat shops is real. The question now is how to go about doing it.
If catshops were eliminated entirely tomorrow what would happen? People would complain at first for sure but I think they would adapt quickly to use the AH and trade chat.
Perhaps catshops could be made obsolete by a cash shop item that allows you to setup a stall without having your computer on.
I admit I don't have the answer but I see the problem.
-Ast
I fully support the idea that a new way of catshopping be implemented; I would definitely like to see an automated catshop you could open while being offline.
~LC0 -
LacusCIyne - Sanctuary wrote: »I fully support the idea that a new way of catshopping be implemented; I would definitely like to see an automated catshop you could open while being offline.
~LC
I think the auction house can be considered an automated catshop? ^o^
Regards.0 -
I'm using mine to earn game coin and download movies, games, tv programs, programs, etc. -That is direct use.
Then the comment isn't geared at you. Its geared at people who leave their computers running unattended for long periods of time, while they're at work or sleeping.Yeah.. less than 1% of my wages is absurd.
That is irrelevant, isn't it? The cost to the environment is real.
Furthermore, it would likely be profitable for PWI to include a cashshop item that allows this in any case. Oh and just so I say this too: not everyone shares your disposable income.Powering homes is bad for the environment.
Carbon Dioxide helps plants flourish.
Oceanic plants create most of our oxygen.
Yes, carbon dioxide is essential for photosynthesis in plants. However, it is quite clear that human industries are introducing a vast amount of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, which is in the excess of this cycle. That is to say; there was enough and we dumped in a whole lot more. Oceanic plants? Seriously, okay algae do their part, but that isn't the point. Its true that the ocean is the world's largest carbon sink; however, that is because the water itself actually saturates. In case you don't know what that means: its dissolves the gas. However, the oceans are acidifying, because if you dissolve carbon dioxide in water you get carbonic acid. This is changing biospheres underwater. For example, it is a strong contributor to the decay of coral reefs (a nursery for fish, not merely a tourist attraction) and is making the oceans unlivable for species on which humans depend for food.Outside of PWI, there are other MMOs. PWI is single handedly feeding the rain forests C02?
So because others jump of a cliff you're inclined to follow? Also its fine to feed a rain forest CO2, what sucks is when they get deforested and nothing eats the tons of CO2 you still emit into the air.Stop playing. The benefit of you quitting is real.
Sure, however the idea is that less drastic life-style adjustments and human innovation can achieve the desired goals without infringing on our personal lifes to such an extent. But please, you quit.I'd have less incentive to play. People playing is profitable, while people quitting isn't.
No one asked the general population of PWI players to quit. The players are asking the company to sell us something; why shouldn't they supply us. Its more profitable. Oh I know!!! The stand could look like a Bat ingame! That'd be kawaii!As long as you are hooked on technology: you are part of the problem. You're simply pointing fingers at people like you and expecting them to be less like you. Go live off the land, start a powerless commune, etc. - Asking too much? Pointing the finger gets you?
"...the idea is that less drastic life-style adjustments and human innovation can achieve the desired goals." Your black-white view of the world is childish, ignorant, and annoying. You can have a zero-carbon footprint and life a perfectly normal life. The only problem is, that at the moment its rather expensive. That is something the private sector, governments, NGOs, and individuals are working to change.
I hate to be rude but your "its me against the world" outlook on life is unhelpful and unhealthy. Please seek help and don't spread propaganda. Climate change is a obvious and real threat, and this is something a person with half brain can fathom. The science is not overly complicated.
I think every little bit helps! So yeah, Perfect World let me buy something to lower my "PWI-carbon footprint", have a Green-week Zen Sale, and do whatever. Maybe sell a eco-rep. outfit? You can sell nutty religious ones too.
Now please, flame at my typos but at least I've informed you a little bit b:pleased[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
^
You jus' mad 'cause he be stylin' on you.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yeah, it's me. Don't read to much into it, though; I'm only here for myself now, killin' time and chillin' when need-be. So sue me. Tch...0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Wow you really thought that was a commonly known acronym? What websites have you been reading?To say this you would have to prove people are capable in thinking of terms of power consumption.
The government sees co2 as something important enough to be taxed. It's up to you what value you see in dumping 4 tons of co2 per server per week into the air.
You having to manage several accounts is a cost (since doing that is more annoying than having one). That computer that is running the catshop could be doing other things or it could be off.
Bandwidth is not in unlimited supply and surely there is a more efficient usage of bandwidth than running cat shops.
Try seeing things from an engineering perspective. For an engineer a glass is not half empty or half full but rather the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
Catshops are wasteful, clutter up arch, and the community (and planet) would be better served by an overhaul of the AH or other catshop alternatives.
Starting off- AGW is commonly used, gj.
As to whether or not it's a waste- nope. Waste indicates no use. As they chose to leave a catshop open, they are choosing to pay for that electricity. They have a use for that power, and are willing to pay the price for it's use. Whether they know/care specifically how much power is being used doesn't matter.
The government taxes plenty. Nowadays, they're taxing things to discourage use. I'm a smoker. I saw prices for my cigarettes jump from 3.50 a pack to an average of 5.50. Now, this was done for no other reason than to try to make me quit smoking. Now they're trying to take over health care, and soon will be taking over energy. Taxes are an easy method of manipulation, and health care has the potential to control damn near every aspect of your life. The fact that they are trying to tax carbon emissions doesn't make AGW any more valid than them taking over health care makes them altruistic.
Engineering analogy fail.0 -
Euphy - Dreamweaver wrote: »The sky is falling!!111one!!1!
Read a book, think for yourself. gg b:bye0 -
You're totally right if you mean I hate ignorant mofos sounding smart online. It get all worked up and thats bad for my complexion b:chuckle
Hey I'm happy about the whole allowed 2 degree increase in temperature... New York and Seattle can totally use it. And the world leaders or whatever will finally decide what to do about REDD, which is so awesome! That's all about allocating owners of rain forest land carbon credits they can sell companies on the open market, its a totally cool idea to save the trees, sequester CO2 naturally, empower developing nations (or landowners there... I guess...), and yeah!
Oh and its fine if you're trying, but PLEASE Google is right on top of your screen. There is no need for misinformation.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Sure, however the idea is that less drastic life-style adjustments and human innovation can achieve the desired goals without infringing on our personal lifes to such an extent.
"the desired goals without infringing on our person lifes to SUCH AN EXTENT?
Are you serious? Its bloody quitting a virtual game thats about 3.2GBs. You make it sound as if its burning your house down and then living in an unnamed desert on the other side of the world.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
|Active: Coalescence - Lost City, Wizard|
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Seriously, I do a lot in my life to reduce my environment impact. But I feel like I can still enjoy "bloody games", cosmetics, and electric light. I was simply pointing out that he was being melodramatic in saying we'd have to quit Perfect World if we wanted to be green about this.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Euphy - Dreamweaver wrote: »You're totally right if you mean I hate ignorant mofos sounding smart online. It get all worked up and thats bad for my complexion b:chuckle
Hey I'm happy about the whole allowed 2 degree increase in temperature... New York and Seattle can totally use it.
Oh and its fine if you're trying, but PLEASE Google is right on top of your screen. There is no need for misinformation.
Hell, I wish global warming was real....0* windchill is not fun.
Misinformation? How about those e-mails that were recently brought to the public showing how these so-called scientists doctored their info to push their agenda? How about the statistician that, once he clawed and scratched his way through the bull****, crunched the numbers used to create the first "hockey stick" warming charts, and found out the reverse of what they claimed was true? As in, temperatures in many places were cooling, rather than warming, and that the majority showed no significant change at all?
Misinformation is the tool of AGW proponents, I wouldn't encroach on their territory.0 -
From post 150
================================
I thought of some things in addition to just simply improving the Auction House and making it more appealing to users. This will not solve the problem for every person using a catshop, but it it might help persuade users who sell over night to shut off their machine instead.
- Make the Auction House more appealing by removing the price to place items
-Remove remove sales tax or the penalty which players incur for actually making the sell. I think it might be around 5% currently?
- Add support for more items so it is not necessary to catshop certain items.
- Perhaps include text searches in addition to item number searches.
- Add more auction houses to cut down on floods of players at each one.
- Allow items to have longer auction times, for example a week or two weeks and maybe one month
- Maybe add a special type of auction house or the functionality to optionally support item grouping by player. This way players who want to be identified or recognized can build a good reputation as farmers or sellers.Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »To c02 emmisions: c02 is a minor greenhouse gas and not a major actor on the environment. Contributer, yes. But not a very big one.
One day my aunt, wife and mother of two children complained of a headache. She took medicine and it persisted. 6 hours later she was dead. So to this I say just because something is a small problem doesn't portend it should be ignored. Many times small problems which go ignored or unattended mature into substantial ones. I feel that simply because a problem is or seems small at this time is not an acceptable reason to disregard it.
Regards0 -
_azazel_ - Lost City wrote: »Hell, I wish global warming was real....0* windchill is not fun.
Misinformation? How about those e-mails that were recently brought to the public showing how these so-called scientists doctored their info to push their agenda? How about the statistician that, once he clawed and scratched his way through the bull****, crunched the numbers used to create the first "hockey stick" warming charts, and found out the reverse of what they claimed was true? As in, temperatures in many places were cooling, rather than warming, and that the majority showed no significant change at all?
Misinformation is the tool of AGW proponents, I wouldn't encroach on their territory.
Do you honestly want me to get started on this topic? I take kickboxing classes for a reason, and its to pummel ******* like that so-called scientist if I ever see him.
The data is out there, and it has been reproduced many times. It is beyond a doubt that the trends of increased CO2 in the atmosphere and increasing temperatures correlate. If you want I can post slides from my Environmental Studies: A Changing World seminar.
Yes we all know that in the mid-1900s there was a cooling trend, however it is also evident that this was independent of the increasing CO2 levels and due to other factors. No one is saying the Earth's global is so simple as that the only factor is carbon dioxide in the atmoshere. In fact the other two main factors besides all greenhouse gases are solar activity and albedo.
@Foltern:
so true! And yes while there are other greenhouse gases (notably Methane, Water Vapor) Carbon Dioxide is one which we influence directly. Increasing water vapor in the atmosphere is a postive feedback from rising CO2 levels, and methane is unfortunatly something we can't really reduce. I don't want to force people to become vegatarians; its futile. But its true... cow farts kill the earth... [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Euphy - Dreamweaver wrote: »Seriously, I do a lot in my life to reduce my environment impact. But I feel like I can still enjoy "bloody games", cosmetics, and electric light. I was simply pointing out that he was being melodramatic in saying we'd have to quit Perfect World if we wanted to be green about this.
Think he was saying something more along the lines of that if any of you people pushing a greener lifestyle were serious, you'd be giving up a lot more than you are. He's right, btw.
If you actually believe that AGW is going to wipe out as many species as you people all claim, and if you actually cared about saving those species, you would be doing much more. The whole, "living in a hut, etc. etc." thing isn't far off. If you REALLY believed the effects were as widespread as you claim they are, you'd do everything in your power to stop them. This would include giving up all luxuries that you think harm the environment. I wish you WERE serious....you'd turn off all your power, and we wouldn't have to read your nonsense on here.0 -
- Make the Auction House more appealing by removing the price to place items
-Remove remove sales tax or the penalty which players incur for actually making the sell. I think it might be around 5% currently?
but AH is a major coin sink in this game...if we were to read back to the many "gold is high" posts, we'd gather that a lot of players feel that there needs to be more coin sinks, especially coin sinks for higher levels.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
I'm sorry that I don't have time to read all of the posts in this thread concerning the issue, so I don't know if my input has been for mentioned.
I used to play multiple games on private servers for quite some time (don't hate, it was only because of my love for the game and lack of money to play on officials, but I did when I could), and on a few of them I found that people had written script that allowed the client to be closed and the account still running, but only while in shop mode(probably for obvious botting reasons). To be honest I always thought this was one of the most amazing things for games that allowed for player shops to be created.
Now I don't know how difficult that would be to implement into the game, but perhaps adding the button to the Consignment Shop window itself? Instead of clicking 'Done', click a similar button to close out the client, or even put the button on the window once the shop has already been started. Just a suggestion
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Well **** you too?_azazel_ - Lost City wrote: »Think he was saying something more along the lines of that if any of you people pushing a greener lifestyle were serious, you'd be giving up a lot more than you are. He's right, btw.
If you actually believe that AGW is going to wipe out as many species as you people all claim, and if you actually cared about saving those species, you would be doing much more. The whole, "living in a hut, etc. etc." thing isn't far off. If you REALLY believed the effects were as widespread as you claim they are, you'd do everything in your power to stop them. This would include giving up all luxuries that you think harm the environment. I wish you WERE serious....you'd turn off all your power, and we wouldn't have to read your nonsense on here.
You don't know anything about my life; but here, fyi I'm double majoring in International Politics and Environment Chemistry. So yes, I'm trying to bring about real change on these topics. Sure college is a long way off from a career, but its something I'm passionate about.
I'm also aware that we can't expect people to give up all the luxuries they work so hard for. I'm unwilling to live in a mud hut, and its something that I deem/hope to be unnecessary. One of the wisest things I've ever heard is "Everything in Moderation". So we need to be careful, but not extreme. That means we shouldn't ignore it, but it also means we shouldn't throw our civilization away for mud huts.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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