Spliting TT drops, and fairness

Foxx - Heavens Tear

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Give me a bit longer to hit 90 (so I can open it), and figure my plan out and I bet you I can duo 2-3 Wurlord

No. 2-1 is doable with a 98 herc and a second veno, but still not 100% when he gets in a lucky spell+hit.
Forget all about 2-3.

Besides even if you could duo 2-3 squad wurlord, its better money/time just to run sinle mode solo. You can bypass most of the trash (and theres less of it) and you only have to kill wurlord once. You're loooking at 5 runs an hour as opposed to maybe 1.5 runs per hour in squad mode. US are cheap nowdays so they dont count for much.

TLDR version: squad wurlord just isnt worth it.

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear

most guilds have rules set for this kind of thing, but i dont believe that they should always be applied with an iron hand always. for instance, i want to make the Endless Ambiguity for my next sword, but folks in my guild have told me 'forget it-you would spend more TTing the mats than buying them on the AH'. well, i know for a fact that it doesnt cost me almost 400k to run a TT, and that is what it costs for a single ape tooth on AH this morning. and the Ambiguitys i have seen for sale run around $12.8k...forget it! i'll never see that much money ever. so TTing mats *is* worthwhile....providing you *do* make it clear that you need certain mats and why. it also helps if those TTs are quests of yours and you are the subber.


im told by guild members that any gold armour shards found on runs by the guild are to be sold on the AH....but what if there are folks in that team who want and need those to build something? if that is the reason they are there? same thing with any mat that other guilds deem should be sold and proceeds split among team members...who is going to remember *that* after so much time has passed? few take notes....i've never gotten back any of those moneys from auctions.....i think that policy might need some rethinking and reworking....


one thing that does make me mad is the system of paying based on class...every class has expenses, but that shouldnt be how someone is valued. we are all there to work together-few are powerful enough to do them alone, or with little backup. so why do teams going in devalue the DDs and venos always? without us, the job of the big boys would be *much* more difficult....and more costly. the more people, the more the cost of running the whole thing is spread out, as is the damage/work/stress. each member is there as a specialist, to do the job only their class can do. so why the degradation of some classes as not worth getting good drops? in old guilds i have been in, i didnt know about how it all worked, or values of things, and no one suggested i start work on my TT armour or swords. so now its too expensive for me to back up and try for TT armour, and its only because i lucked out before the game inflation that i got a good griefs breath, so good that im considering building another from the two TT 60 swords i have,and passing on this one to an alt or one of my kids characters.

anyway....

i believe that if someone in the group tells you they are specifically going to make something (and you know they arent going to run off and sell the mat) that if possible, they should have it). that IS the idea behind TT runs, is it not, to collect mats for our gear building?

Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »

My question is how you guys go about splitting TT drops. When we were doing runs for 70 and 80 gear, it usually went Barb>Cleric>Veno>DD-by-level, sometimes switching Barb and Cleric. This was a pretty good system, as Barb/Cleric costs run higher, and the mats are generally of proximate value.

This issue recently came to light in my faction, as when we do 2-3 runs, Antenna is worth significantly more than Forushura's Arm, which is worth still more than anything else. As such, I find myself getting Antenna on almost every run, Arm when there are no Antennas, and a squad of frustrated DDs.

I don't think there is a question that Clerc/Barb costs are higher, but just because I'm spending 100-200k more than a wizard, why am I entitled to a mat worth 2 mil and he gets stuck with 700k?

Here are the prices (give or take, based on AH) of mats from 2-3 on Dreamweaver:

Antenna of consumer of souls: 2-2.5 mil
Forshura's Arm: 1-1.5 mil
Giant ape's tail: 600-800k
Horn of Feng's horse: 200-400k
Astral Stone:700k-1 mil
Frenzy Lion's Edge: 1 perfect mana potb:chuckle

Recent run had 5 tails, 2 arms. 5 man squad, I got arm and a tail, Barb got same, and veno/dds got a tail each.

A Barb in my faction recently came up with a bidding system, similar to what we do with gold mats (sell in AH and split money), but would by pass the AH. Basically, you're just buying out the squad for your drops.

Problem I have with this is it's impossible for someone without a bankroll to get mats. They would profit nicely, but would end up buying mats from AH at inflated prices.

Now, I don't mind doing charity TT runs every so often to help someone finish their gear. I recently did a 2-2 where the barb said beforehand that he was taking all Manes and nothing else; everyone was ok with that.

But with this system in place, how are dds supposed to get Antennas and Arms, short of doing MANY more runs than clerics/barbs. How do you split mats in your faction? Discuss.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Foxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No. 2-1 is doable with a 98 herc and a second veno, but still not 100% when he [wurlord] gets in a lucky spell+hit.
Forget all about 2-3..

Brael confided in me some of his strategy for duoing wurlord in 2-1 and 2-2 at his level. It seemed to me like it would work. I won't reveal it - its his strategy to reveal if he wishes. But I can vouch for the validity of his claim to being able to duo wurlord in 2-2 at level 88. And I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work in 2-3.

Brael - Dreamweaver

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't believe you, that you did TT 2-2 for 30min. We did all bosses and it took more than 2 1/2h.

Then you kill extremely slow. When I duoed 2-2 it took something like 3 hours 15 minutes (90 minutes of that on Wurlord). Just myself and a Barbarian. Most of that time outside of Wurlord was spent on the clearing. With a regular squad I could see 45 minutes easily. With the squad being higher levels than mine is, I could see 30 minutes too, don't under estimate what more DD's add... particularly ones that play together all the time.

Foxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No. 2-1 is doable with a 98 herc and a second veno, but still not 100% when he gets in a lucky spell+hit.
Forget all about 2-3.

Really? Then why did I duo 2-2 wurlord with a Barbarian as low as I did? Was it a fluke that I was able to kill it 4 times? I don't think so. Clearly we have different standards on what is doable. My version of doable is the minimum I can use to kill the mob.

Oh, I don't remember what level I did 2-1 at with a Barb, but at 85 with a 74 veno I could do 2-1 Wurlord duo. 98 herc+second veno is quite a bit more than what you need..

Besides even if you could duo 2-3 squad wurlord, its better money/time just to run sinle mode solo. You can bypass most of the trash (and theres less of it) and you only have to kill wurlord once. You're loooking at 5 runs an hour as opposed to maybe 1.5 runs per hour in squad mode. US are cheap nowdays so they dont count for much.

TLDR version: squad wurlord just isnt worth it.

I said I could do it profitably, not that it would be anywhere near the best profit around. Simply that I could cover costs with some left over. That leftover is profit.

Personally, I think it would be worth it for a few reasons:
1. To do it.
2. For the challenge.
3. Because it would be fun.
4. It pays for itself.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then you kill extremely slow. When I duoed 2-2 it took something like 3 hours 15 minutes. Just myself and a Barbarian. Most of that time was spent on the clearing. With a regular squad I could see 45 minutes easily. With the squad being higher levels than mine is, I could see 30 minutes too, don't under estimate what more DD's add... particularly ones that play together all the time.



Really? Then why did I duo 2-2 wurlord with a Barbarian as low as I did? Was it a fluke that I was able to kill it 4 times? I don't think so. Clearly we have different standards on what is doable. My version of doable is the minimum I can use to kill the mob.

Oh, I don't remember what level I did 2-1 at with a Barb, but at 85 with a 74 veno I could do 2-1 Wurlord duo. 98 herc+second veno is quite a bit more than what you need..



I said I could do it profitably, not that it would be anywhere near the best profit around. Simply that I could cover costs with some left over. That leftover is profit.

Personally, I think it would be worth it for a few reasons:
1. To do it.
2. For the challenge.
3. Because it would be fun.
4. It pays for itself.

Ok. I have to tell, that I had squad of lower level players. I was the highest. But I still don't believe that is possible to do within 30m, because of clearing path. And I don't mention killing bosses.

Brael - Dreamweaver

I don't mind posting the strat, the idea came from the boards anyways and I've probably posted it before. Have a Barb alacrity every nuke, keep maxed Befuddling Mist on. Use a genie for Blinding Sand. You used to be able to do it with a single genie that had 40 dex and 80 magic. Now you need one on each of you with sand 10 60 str, 60 dex, and at least 29 magic. Still entirely doable, though it takes a little more work to build the genie. I haven't done it since the genie revamps, however I imagine having a veno pet with shriek would make it a lot easier. That way no one has to be watching debuffs and interrupts 100% of the time.

As for the clearing path, I'm guessing you're killing things one at a time. Start killing larger groups (or just run past them, but I think that method is lame).

Redmenace - Heavens Tear

MentalEdge - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The majority got fed up of making fun of you,your reputation is well known,or left the mess this game has become.

Besides how many times have i called you out on your complete lack of pvp ability(not just me either)and yet you still go on and on and onnnnn about how great you are and how **** everyone else is even though you fight once every 4 weeks in a tw (and usually that tw is over in 15 mins heh)never go white named and probably never will,and duel people with inferior gear and level and then brag about how godly you are.

As for redmenace,i don't blame him for his ignorance and rudeness,hes part of belial afterall same faction as you,it's just a given that once you're in there you turn into a keyboard warrior or mouthy little know it all.

I be lurking b:shocked

I'll have you know I've been just as intolerant of puffed up, arrogant clowns *before* I joined a faction as I am now.

Not that I'm accusing you of this.

b:pleased

RedMenace

calavera

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'll have you know I've been just as intolerant of puffed up, arrogant clowns *before* I joined a faction as I am now.

Not that I'm accusing you of this.

b:pleased

RedMenace

So basically you were already a biggot before you hooked up with zoe. Yea, glad you came forward with that...

No slashies?

Redmenace - Heavens Tear

calavera wrote: »

So basically you were already a biggot before you hooked up with zoe. Yea, glad you came forward with that...

No slashies?

Example of bigotry, Son.

Lets see the proof.

RedMenace

Zoe - Heavens Tear

15 minutes? You haven't been on much recently have you? I've 2 hit level 90 wizard and 3 hit a level 94 barb that had at least 12k hp not in tiger, both in TT 90 with refines and good shards, petless. Imagine what I can do to you.

Calliope - Heavens Tear

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ok. I have to tell, that I had squad of lower level players. I was the highest. But I still don't believe that is possible to do within 30m, because of clearing path. And I don't mention killing bosses.

With a good barb you can just rush through and bypass most of the mobs. Saves a ton of time.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Calliope - Heavens Tear wrote: »

With a good barb you can just rush through and bypass most of the mobs. Saves a ton of time.

I have to try it sometime.b:pleased

calavera

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Example of bigotry, Son.

Lets see the proof.

RedMenace

Leaving aside the fact that you only need look up at your own quote to see proof, the point this thread is discussing is bigotry. Guess which side of the argument you're on?

Not the sharpest crayon in the box, are you?

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't believe you, that you did TT 2-2 for 30min. We did all bosses and it took more than 2 1/2h.

When we do 2-2 with the regulars, without a break, it takes about 30-40 minutes if we skip wurlord. Probably another 10 min if we do him. Depends on the DD though. With a high 9x party, under 30 minutes wouldn't surprise me.

Done 3-1 speed runs with a 101 archer... all but the last boss in about 20 min from subbing to porting out. Timed boss in under a minute. lol

Redmenace - Heavens Tear

calavera wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that you only need look up at your own quote to see proof, the point this thread is discussing is bigotry. Guess which side of the argument you're on?

Not the sharpest crayon in the box, are you?

How you manage to convert common distribution methods in TT runs into *bigotry* says much more about *you* than anything else.

The point of this thread has become that you're ticked off that someone screwed you on a TT run, and are determined to hassle anyone with differing views on this than you.

But this is all about *you*, and not about OP's question, isnt it?

RedMenace

calavera

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How you manage to convert common distribution methods in TT runs into *bigotry* says much more about *you* than anything else.

The point of this thread has become that you're ticked off that someone screwed you on a TT run, and are determined to hassle anyone with differing views on this than you.

But this is all about *you*, and not about OP's question, isnt it?

RedMenace

What's wrong? No wishing me a happy day? no slashies? You could at the very least share with us some more pics of your favorite teen heartthrobs...

As flatered as i am that you think this is about me, i'm sorry to say those "common" rules didn't exist back when i was active so, no, i actually never squaded with barbs like you, although i'm sure i would've enjoyed the party wipes. You would've known as much if you had read my posts before answering but oh well...

And if you think robing people of what they deserve, and doing so based on a "class" or a "race" distinction, has nothing to do with bigotry well... As much as you may want to say this is just a game, it's actual people sitting behind their computers. Just ask Zoe, i think that's an argument she may have heard before...

And as for me hassling people with different views... i'm sorry to say you haven't actually expressed much of one, read back your posts, so really that's just one more empty disqualification to add to your list.

In fact you have seem more interested in atacking me than my arguments, which may say something about you... Really that you've come to the point of actually trying to parrot my writing style, i mean, once again i'm flatered.

But to *you* this is all about me and not the OP's question, isn't it?

Gasoline - Lost City

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't believe you, that you did TT 2-2 for 30min. We did all bosses and it took more than 2 1/2h.

That party must have been horrible b:surrender. I do 2-2 with just me + my cleric (for red and blue ball) and 1 ea takes 1 hour max (skipping wulord tho). Just holy path and rush past mobs. You really only have to kill like 4-5 mobs in 2-2 at most. If i bring 1 more cleric so archer can tank wulord, than 2 more DDs (archer or veno - not wizards) it certainly does not take more than 30 min for 2-2 full run.

Ppl are just so dunno overly careful doing TT. They think they need to have a barb in party and a Bm for def buff, have to kill all mobs 1 by 1 lol. But in reality, most TT, you can just fill the entire party with venos or archers for max dmg, than rush past everything with holy path and be done in 30 min. b:chuckle

LordRaptor - Heavens Tear

why u dont do this: u count the worth of the mats. then every squad member gets "virtual" coins. For that coins u "buy" the mats out of the pot. If a player need for example an arm, and have not enough, he can buy virtual coins from the other player.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Example of bigotry, Son.

Lets see the proof.

RedMenace

I can't help but notice your name and how it relates to my server.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

I can't help but notice your name and how it relates to my server.

I've never been on Sanc, and I don't know the names of factions on it, sorry. Not intending to offend.

The name comes from my having red hair, that's all.

Red

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I've never been on Sanc, and I don't know the names of factions on it, sorry. Not intending to offend.

The name comes from my having red hair, that's all.

Red

What it means to that server is that almost the entire TW map is covered in red. The server has a "Red Menace"b:laugh

Redmenace - Heavens Tear

calavera wrote: »

What's wrong? No wishing me a happy day? no slashies? You could at the very least share with us some more pics of your favorite teen heartthrobs...

As flatered as i am that you think this is about me, i'm sorry to say those "common" rules didn't exist back when i was active so, no, i actually never squaded with barbs like you, although i'm sure i would've enjoyed the party wipes. You would've known as much if you had read my posts before answering but oh well...

And if you think robing people of what they deserve, and doing so based on a "class" or a "race" distinction, has nothing to do with bigotry well... As much as you may want to say this is just a game, it's actual people sitting behind their computers. Just ask Zoe, i think that's an argument she may have heard before...

And as for me hassling people with different views... i'm sorry to say you haven't actually expressed much of one, read back your posts, so really that's just one more empty disqualification to add to your list.

In fact you have seem more interested in atacking me than my arguments, which may say something about you... Really that you've come to the point of actually trying to parrot my writing style, i mean, once again i'm flatered.

But to *you* this is all about me and not the OP's question, isn't it?

Since you haven't been able to "discern" my opinion on the matter, I'll be happy to spell it out, if you like.

I don't have a problem with giving *preferential* treatment to Clerics and Barbs in a TT or FB run. I believe they take more damage and lose more money than other classes in the same situation.

That said, as a Barb in TT runs, damage doesn't bother me much and usually doesn't cost me much *personally*, so I usually lean toward favoring the squshy cleric over myself. I appreciate him/her saving my tail.

As for splits, every run I've been on it's been spelled out early how drops will be split, and so far no one has complained if the split was so bad I wanted to leave. Hasn't happened often, but it has. Usually I go ahead and do the run, and mentally note that This person is maybe worth avoiding when in charge of a run.

I have no desire to short *anyone* in a cave, nor do I have any firsthand knowledge of what the TT cave losses of a BM, wiz or archer are (not having any of those high enough to do TT) and frankly don't have a problem with sharing with anyone. If a crew doesnt think enough of me to share in the rewards, then Obviously I know to stay away from them from that point forward.

I play the game *now*, and the experiences I have had tell another story than yours have. I have *not* claimed you were lying, or making things up. I have just claimed that I have not seen the widespread evilness that you are trying to convince me of.

I can see archers being upset at throwing a lot of $$ in arrows in a TT, or archers and BM's and wiz's being b*tched at for excess crits and stealing aggro, and clerics hollering at charm costs, and barbs hollering about charm ticks and armor wear.

Since I don't know what you *played*, or what server, I don't know how it applies to you. Makes it difficult to empathize.

calavera wrote: »

And for those people who out of the kindness of their heart expect all to share their trust, generosity and their confidence in faction banks... You're STEALING from the people who are closest to you. You wouldn't ask a stranger to give up their share but you expect it from guildies? Come on, 90% of the time only a few indivuals benefit from faction's pool resources, the rest have to "wait" so long they end up getting their gear on their own. You can deduct the higher expenses of barbs and clerics but after that EVERYONE DOING A RUN DESERVES AN EQUAL SHARE OR AN EQUAL SHOT AT MATS. Anything else is disrespecting the people you squad with.?

I trust the people in my faction. That's why I'm there. If you don't trust yours, then I'm sorry. That doesn't make those who *do* mindless idiots.

RedMenace

\refrained somehow from attacking *you*, or others by association as well
\\didn't know Zoe was in the same faction when I joined, and gave him hell once or twice here when I felt it was needed

Paulita - Dreamweaver

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In the faction I'm in, whoever needs it for their armor, gets it. No questions asked. If you don't need it, you don't get it.

Agreed, in my faction we would most likely do it this way. Gives drops to those who need the armor and leftover go to the ones who already got

_amaranth_ - Dreamweaver

No matter if I do it in faction or not, the people I'm with do it the traditional tank-cleric-highest to lowest DD. I have been in many of runs where the tank takes the most expensive item and sells it even though there are others in the squad that need that item. As a veno, I usually don't get what I need from these squads. I'm lucky if I get one thing I need. I try only to pick what I need, not what sells good. I rarely do runs for money. I currently am unable to solo TT, I am raising a pet right now. But until then I have to stick with crappy picks in a squad.

Ninnuam - Sanctuary

Have them sub the run for the mat they need (dust of devil, antennae, arms or whatever) and problem solved.

However, a lot of runs are highly circumstantial. I've done 2-3 runs where I didn't die once, and I've had runs where I died 10 times (never again doing AE with no veno, hits for 12k if not purged -_-). So If I burn a res scroll or two and 10GAs on top of having both my charms **** then yes, damn straight I will ask for a bigger share than a DD who lost 10k on arrows/perfect cookies/meat. And they don't need angels since they're getting a lvl10/11 res. I can't count on it if the other cleric is dead or there simply isn't another cleric.

Or if I burn half a mp charm compared to 150k mp charm because they didn't want to get a veno. Seriously, a veno tanking fata, doggie and astral on top of pet damage and amp = WIN.

So yeah, if I burn 150k mp and don't die I'm happy getting as much as the next person. If I burn 400k mp and die 10 times on AE because they insist on doing it with a nub barb, lack of a good veno or if noone has a genie to help interrupt, then I'll demand a helluva a lot more. And I don't think that's being unreasonable in the slightest.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

with charm costs recently im starting to wonder if cleric HP/MP loss is actually higher than barb repair and their partial hp/mp loss considering more than half the time their getting healed.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

with charm costs recently im starting to wonder if cleric HP/MP loss is actually higher than barb repair and their partial hp/mp loss considering more than half the time their getting healed.

Since, except for very few things, you do not need charms as a cleric, I do not see how that is possible. The barbs kinda have no way to really avoid the repairs, if they are tanking, although they do not need charms either, for most stuff. (For TWs, PVP, although you do not need one, it does give the person with one a huge advantage)

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Since, except for very few things, you do not need charms as a cleric, I do not see how that is possible. (you need to play cleric at least until 90 then your vision will start to clear and see) The barbs kinda have no way to really avoid the repairs, if they are tanking, (repairs for the most part do not go over 250k-300k which, for clerics, charms can go way beyond that) although they do not need charms either, for most stuff. (For TWs, PVP, although you do not need one, it does give the person with one a huge advantage)

The very few things also tend to be the very often things.
Also.
SOMETHINGS gotta keep the HP/MP pool up for barbs and clerics even if it means pots, and for clerics, nothings gonna replenish that MP at the depleting rate you do a boss without some external item usage.
Say if you dont use a charm. Barb wont need HP pots if the cleric is good with strong heals, maybe a couple of MP pots he might need and some apoth meds to help hp/mp recovery. No amount of apoth meds are gonna recover mage mp at the amount they spend. If you dont have charm youll be guzzling mp pots like a chronic alcoholic and frankly pots arent that cheap for high lvls.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you dont have charm youll be guzzling mp pots like a chronic alcoholic.

That is correct, you will be using apocs and regular pots and event pots like they are going out of style. However, at current prices, those options will be cheaper than using a MP charm.

I didn't play a cleric to 90, but I do plenty of runs with a barb and a cleric that are both charmless. It does require planning, and once in while "things happen", since they do not have a charm for emergencies, but it can be done. That includes cleric being able to BB for the bosses, or chain heal, or do whatever he has to do. The tank does its thing, and I pass sparks to cleric and barb, since once in awhile the cleric needs to drop BB to use a apoc pot. But again, it is not a big deal if people plan for it and know what they are doing.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That is correct, you will be using apocs and regular pots and event pots like they are going out of style. However, at current prices, those options will be cheaper than using a MP charm.

You talk as if you rarely did any instances where mobs did double triple attacks or aoes or have mp sucking bosses, that and pots and meds can handle anything and instantly. You have to keep in mind diff. lvls experience diff. mobs slowly and not everything that worked at early lvls work at higher ones.
Once you equip a charm at those necessary instances they arent unequiptable. And like i said most times these 'rare' instances are done often for these sort of individual runners, charmless players are highly on the low side.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I didn't play a cleric to 90, but I do plenty of runs with a barb and a cleric that are both charmless. It does require planning, and once in while "things happen", since they do not have a charm for emergencies, but it can be done. That includes cleric being able to BB for the bosses, or chain heal, or do whatever he has to do. The tank does its thing, and I pass sparks to cleric and barb, since once in awhile the cleric needs to drop BB to use a apoc pot. But again, it is not a big deal if people plan for it and know what they are doing.

Using an example of well known friends and a static group is kinda pointless as you have to think of the majority players who do with random pple in faction or WC who often times do not have a static and reactions and understandings of those players are vastly diff.