Spliting TT drops, and fairness
Comments
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Dear fellow players,
The following post is derived from my personal experiences and are solely my opinion without the intent to offend anyone. Do refrain from continuing if you're going to QQ.
This general rule of barb>cleric>dd by level concept is completely absurd. In a proper 2-3 run, a single barb tanking results in an rough estimate of 75k repair bill. A cleric results in roughly half a gold mp charm. Of course you can have a second cleric to ease expenses, but the point is that barbs and their barb complex* picking before clerics is ridiculous.
Another point I would like to put forth is in favour of wizards. Wizards get the worse of it all to be honest. They're burning mp left and right for DDing, whereas BMs or archers or venos have costs that are no where near equating to that of wizards.
I agree on the subber receiving 2-3 mirages per sub or all of the mirages in any TT run depending on the drop rate. This is done prior to any material distribution. This can be easily adjusted based on the market value of mirages and ultimate substances.
TT runs are based on teamwork. Well, if you plan to finish quickly and effectively. Venos should amplify as much as possible, purge when necessary. Pet selection should be based on attack rate and damage output (assuming barb is tanking) - hercules is not be all end all either -_-' Please don't give me that QQing about that mp cut when you switch forms, there are plenty of ways to bypass such things ie. leveling your skills is a genius idea, switching forms after your mp is below a certain point. Clerics, please consider using apothecaries that increases mp recovery rate, this will make TTs a bit more bearable. Barbs, the lazy ones, instead of putting on a macro and afking then yelling when you die because clerics didn't heal enough, try leveling your skills and using them; frighten and devour are great skills. Archers and their sharpen tooth arrow is a good initial attack on any boss. Every player in the squad should use their skills to amplify the damage of other classes. Coordinating things like sage or demon spark with amplify or heaven's flame or extreme poison or any other skills to increase the damage output is not difficult to execute. Everyone has a role in a TT run to help increase the potential of a successful and efficient run.
For barbs that think other classes can't really tank... send in a veno or a BM to tank and you can be replaced. Heck get a tank build BM equipped with alpha male and stream strike, that's not such a bad idea to replace you greedy barbs. Even a fist BM with high enough DPS can top the other classes and maintain aggression.
To address the issue with division of the material in TT runs. The fairest way may possibly be to compensate clerics and barbs x amount of coins agreed on by the squad, and the drops are based on market value. Add the total value of all material and divide by x amount of people in the squad. If you want an antenna at 2m when the pot is 6m with 6 people in the squad, you put up 1m and take the antenna. Values will have to be determined and agreed on prior to the start of the TT run. Gold material should be done the same way and accounted for in the pot. If no one wants it send out a world chat at a ridiculously low price to sell it on the spot and split the coin by x amount of people after telecoustic cost is covered. It is not difficult to liquidate everything in a TT run if you stop and think before letting greed take over then claiming material or sacrificing yourself and letting the greedy ones take what they want.
At the end of the day... if something still goes wrong, just don't TT with those people or that specific person again. They can keep up their attitude and soon enough they'll have no one to TT with and they'll purchase the marked up materials in the auction - which you will benefit from if you're selling any. OR take it to world chat, I'll be glad to enjoy the beauty of human behaviour with a bag of popcorn.
Well, thanks for reading
Remember, karma will bite you sooner or later
*Barb complex - barbs have this tendency to think that they are be all end all and without them no one can get anything done; arrogant, conceited, egocentric, cocky, etc.. The game isn't 100% designed for solo play, success in just about every aspect is achieved through teamwork.0 -
I have ran lots of TT runs up to 3-1 with a charmless barb and charmless cleric and we killed all the bosses. You do not need to burn half a charm as a cleric......Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0
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Ok, got some good input, thank you all. After discussing this in faction, I think we're going to attempt the following.....
As stated, we currently pay subber with mirages. We will try to get an "average" cost for barbs and clerics, and compensate them in a similar manner, before drops are even split. With coin, cheaper mats, whatever.
Then, we're going to try out the auction system for mat splitting, as follows:
Figure out a starting bid and minimum increment for each mat. example is Antenna, starting bid of 1.5 mil, 100k increments. If I win for 2mil, I give banker 2 mil in coins, he drops on floor, and picks up pile, splitting coins evenly amongst everyone, giving them 333,333. Proceed with next mat.
The only real flaws with this system, aside from figuring out "fair" compensation for cleric/barb, is you won't be getting any mats if you don't bring coin. Also, people with a lot of coin may end up getting mats very cheaply. However, short of selling ALL of the mats in AH and splitting ALL of the coins, this seems a faster alternative. Discuss.0 -
Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »Ok, got some good input, thank you all. After discussing this in faction, I think we're going to attempt the following.....
As stated, we currently pay subber with mirages. We will try to get an "average" cost for barbs and clerics, and compensate them in a similar manner, before drops are even split. With coin, cheaper mats, whatever.
Then, we're going to try out the auction system for mat splitting, as follows:
Figure out a starting bid and minimum increment for each mat. example is Antenna, starting bid of 1.5 mil, 100k increments. If I win for 2mil, I give banker 2 mil in coins, he drops on floor, and picks up pile, splitting coins evenly amongst everyone, giving them 333,333. Proceed with next mat.
The only real flaws with this system, aside from figuring out "fair" compensation for cleric/barb, is you won't be getting any mats if you don't bring coin. Also, people with a lot of coin may end up getting mats very cheaply. However, short of selling ALL of the mats in AH and splitting ALL of the coins, this seems a faster alternative. Discuss.
Just make a faction bank, any mats people in the run do not need, go into bank. If you need mats, you can check with the mat's bank first, than do TT runs. If you are not going to help your faction members with their game, why even bother to have a faction?Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
Like you stated, if you don't have coin, you don't get mats. Which means that any of you wanting to run to get mats to make coins... Don't get mats. Honestly, if you can trust your faction, I'd go with the Faction Bank idea, or just continue with your current system, but instead of ranking people based on class role, rank them on what they contribute instead. Went AFK during boss fight, and didn't do anything? Lower them down a couple places. Saved the party? Raise them up a place. Nearly got the party wiped by being stupid? Etc...0
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Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »Ok, got some good input, thank you all. After discussing this in faction, I think we're going to attempt the following.....
As stated, we currently pay subber with mirages. We will try to get an "average" cost for barbs and clerics, and compensate them in a similar manner, before drops are even split. With coin, cheaper mats, whatever.
Then, we're going to try out the auction system for mat splitting, as follows:
Figure out a starting bid and minimum increment for each mat. example is Antenna, starting bid of 1.5 mil, 100k increments. If I win for 2mil, I give banker 2 mil in coins, he drops on floor, and picks up pile, splitting coins evenly amongst everyone, giving them 333,333. Proceed with next mat.
The only real flaws with this system, aside from figuring out "fair" compensation for cleric/barb, is you won't be getting any mats if you don't bring coin. Also, people with a lot of coin may end up getting mats very cheaply. However, short of selling ALL of the mats in AH and splitting ALL of the coins, this seems a faster alternative. Discuss.
so basically everyone has to buy their mats from the rest of the squad? that defeats the purpose of even running tt. you could just save yourself the "costs of running it" and just buy it from another player. the only time ive ever seen THIS method done is with gold mat drops.0 -
Honestly, I do not like faction bank idea at all. Are you telling me that people in your faction are so honest, that none of them would get mats out of the bank and sell them in AH? That no one takes mats without contributing an equal amount?
As for the whole "only take what mats you need" thing....I've never gotten gear just from farming TT. At some point, you have to sell mats you don't need in order to buy the ones you do. Again, this goes back to the crux of the problem....How long could anyone realistically expect an antenna to stay in faction bank? Or even to get contributed there in the first place?
And for those who don't have coins going into a TT run....yeah, it sucks that you're not getting any mats that run. But you will be getting a lot of coins for the next run. Given my example of 2 Forushura's Arms and 5 tails, that's about 5 mil in coins, low end, split 5 ways. Would you really complain about that?0 -
Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »Like you stated, if you don't have coin, you don't get mats. Which means that any of you wanting to run to get mats to make coins... Don't get mats. Honestly, if you can trust your faction, I'd go with the Faction Bank idea, or just continue with your current system, but instead of ranking people based on class role, rank them on what they contribute instead. Went AFK during boss fight, and didn't do anything? Lower them down a couple places. Saved the party? Raise them up a place. Nearly got the party wiped by being stupid? Etc...
But I always nearly get the party wiped by being stupid... It's just more fun when it's a challenge.
Bottom line, every method of distribution is flawed in one way or another. Cycle split is usually the best but it does give the ability for a subber, tank or cleric to be greedy and grab the more expensive mats they don't need. However with my character's gearing and skilling, a TT 2-3 run usually uses about 2/3 of a gold mp charm, a 3-2 about 1 full gold mp charm, and a full 3-3 will often run more than 1.5 gold mp charms while my tanks rarely tick if at all, and the rest of the groups' costs will sometimes bypass the tank's cost. So, the contribution cycle would work better in this case rather than the standard role cycle, but there's the complication of non-standardization that that presents. All in all, stick to what you know, if what you know doesn't work for IN-GUILD runs, work to develop the method further to reduce selfishness because humans are by nature selfish.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Another wall of text completed.0 -
I was factionless until lvl 67-68 or so. I joined a faction that offered me a spot because I thought it would be fun to have more people to talk to and people I might be able to help.
The faction I joined is the same one as a couple of the people posting here, that do TT runs for faction members in need - and they are great.
Even before I started trying to build my armor, I was joining TT runs just for the experience, and hoping I would be able to help the group. Now they are helping me gather mats for my gear, and I have been trying my best to help build up the bank to help others.
It's a great idea, and I'm glad to be part of it.
Nice to know that in this game where it seems like everyone is trying to $@#*& each other, that players can willingly help each other.
Making a TT run with friends is worth paying for the damage to *me*, but I always try to err on the side of my other squad members. It's just a good way to contribute.
RedMenace
\still trying for that last Framework of Drum, arghA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
Robert A. Heinlein0 -
Lypiphera - Heavens Tear wrote: »But I always nearly get the party wiped by being stupid... It's just more fun when it's a challenge.
Bottom line, every method of distribution is flawed in one way or another. Cycle split is usually the best but it does give the ability for a subber, tank or cleric to be greedy and grab the more expensive mats they don't need. However with my character's gearing and skilling, a TT 2-3 run usually uses about 2/3 of a gold mp charm, a 3-2 about 1 full gold mp charm, and a full 3-3 will often run more than 1.5 gold mp charms while my tanks rarely tick if at all, and the rest of the groups' costs will sometimes bypass the tank's cost. So, the contribution cycle would work better in this case rather than the standard role cycle, but there's the complication of non-standardization that that presents. All in all, stick to what you know, if what you know doesn't work for IN-GUILD runs, work to develop the method further to reduce selfishness because humans are by nature selfish.
Indeed. We've all worked out our methods. Mine is to always supply sub, and only take what mats I need for my gear, and let the party split the rest. Seems to be pretty efficient for me. And since I'm usually tank, as well as subber... Nobody ever complains when I ask politely for a very specific mat.0 -
In this guild if you need it, you get it. Generally we try to combine runs with people who need different bosses from the same TT, so that leaves less question of what to do with the mats.
As for paying barbs/clerics, charm burn is really unessential. Half the time I play with uncharmed, the other half are always willing to take mirages + cheap mats (usually the cleric, it's harder for a cleric to keep his MP charm from ticking than it is for a vit barb to keep his HP charm from ticking), and barbs come into the TT fully repaired and group splits his repair costs at the end.
Really quite simple.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »Figure out a starting bid and minimum increment for each mat. example is Antenna, starting bid of 1.5 mil, 100k increments. If I win for 2mil, I give banker 2 mil in coins, he drops on floor, and picks up pile, splitting coins evenly amongst everyone, giving them 333,333. Proceed with next mat.
Sorry, I don't think that doesn't really work unless the banker is overflowing with funds. I think it is always best to have the banker, someone everyone can or is willing to trust, list the items and payout when all the mats have sold, or at least most of them. Some items will need to be relisted, and some may not sell at all.
As for doing HH runs for free? I'm sorry, I have costs associated with running HH. Usually 15-20k in repairs, 30-40k in pots, and probably 20-30k in genie fuel spent for group amp/sparks. There is also the factor of time. Nobody should be expected to go into a HH run and come out empty handed, especially since all of the better runs, 1-3, 2-2 and 2-3 can drop extremely well. 3-1 is the only exception, though it's quick so running 2-3 at a time usually works out fine. And, it's not about greed at all, if you spend your time, pots and charm/fuel expenses you should be fairly compensated.
I have no problem giving a faction member or the person running hh for gear the mats they need, however giving them all drops is a bit ridiculous, IMO. Everyone involved should benefit.
If you come to one of my runs, you get paid a fair share for doing your job.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »Honestly, I do not like faction bank idea at all. Are you telling me that people in your faction are so honest, that none of them would get mats out of the bank and sell them in AH? That no one takes mats without contributing an equal amount?
As for the whole "only take what mats you need" thing....I've never gotten gear just from farming TT. At some point, you have to sell mats you don't need in order to buy the ones you do. Again, this goes back to the crux of the problem....How long could anyone realistically expect an antenna to stay in faction bank? Or even to get contributed there in the first place?
And for those who don't have coins going into a TT run....yeah, it sucks that you're not getting any mats that run. But you will be getting a lot of coins for the next run. Given my example of 2 Forushura's Arms and 5 tails, that's about 5 mil in coins, low end, split 5 ways. Would you really complain about that?
That is the why you have a guild, so you have people you can trust. If you cannot trust your guildmembers, than you are in the wrong guild.....
And there are checks and balances, since the bank account is controlled by the leader and people mail the items, there is a list of what people put in. Since the leader also is the one that gives out the mats when asked, we have a very good idea of who took what and who helped or not. If people take advantage, it will be a one time thing, since I am sure they will end up being kicked out from guild.
@Michael
That is what mirages and pages are for, to cover repair costs.Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »As for doing HH runs for free? I'm sorry, I have costs associated with running HH. Usually 15-20k in repairs, 30-40k in pots, and probably 20-30k in genie fuel spent for group amp/sparks. There is also the factor of time. Nobody should be expected to go into a HH run and come out empty handed, especially since all of the better runs, 1-3, 2-2 and 2-3 can drop extremely well. 3-1 is the only exception, though it's quick so running 2-3 at a time usually works out fine. And, it's not about greed at all, if you spend your time, pots and charm/fuel expenses you should be fairly compensated.
I don't think anyone could realistically expect you do to a run "for free." But there are a couple things to consider:
1. Anytime you step into an instance, you're automatically losing money. Short of every boss dropping 2 2m gold mats, you're never going to make as much in the instance as you would grinding outside of it.
2. Everyone runs a TT differently. I personally cringe every time I'm DD/pull in TT and someone uses genie amp. I also cringe when I bring a cleric that anytime *anyone's* HP drops to about half, they slap up BB and tick-tick-tick goes the charm. TT up-front costs can be considerably reduced--some at the expense of your time, some not. It's up to each player to play intelligently, and I am not going to compensate you if you're popping L10 extreme poison on every mob and L10 holy path all the time just for kicks. That's on your head, not mine. Of course, there are some bosses that are more expensive than others--AOE bosses are always more expensive, for instance, than non-AOE bosses, all else being equal. Again, it's up to each tank/cleric/DD to play intelligently, and yes, as frugally as time will allow. Frankly, if you don't have time to run a charmless, genie-less TT, you really don't have time to run TT in my book.
3. It's very difficult to put an exact price on what each person spends on TT. It basically comes down to how much they like TT, the people involved, and how much they want to be compensated for. Unless your squad has an excellent run, if you're running for someone to get a specific mat, most of the time that someone is going to come out ahead, and the rest of you all will come out a bit behind. If they start paying for subs PLUS the "cost" of all of you coming with them, they might as well just buy the mat from someone else and save everyone the time.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
And how many runs do you need exactly for full TT-70 gear? How many of those do you expect people to help with getting nothing for themselves?
Everyone doing a run deserves either an equal share or an equal chance at getting mats... mirages and other drops are usually enough to cover the above average expenses of barbs/clerics as neither should go over 100k playing their class right, yes, clerics may sometimes go overboard but you can all chip coin for that and they really aren't suposed to BB all their way through the instance anyway.
There's also such a thing as luck, sometimes you'll get drops and sometimes you won't. Can't really expect even your guildies to guarantee some players will always come out ahead, there is such a thing as a bad run.
Yes, selling the mats is the fair thing to do, even if someone needs those. You wouldn't expect someone to hand over 200-400k just for squading with you, now would you? Even amongst close friends there's bound to be someone in squad that has no reason to trust agreements will be upheld tho, so unless every single person in squad is someone who can trust the people selling the mats will actually deliver their fair share, random is the way to go.
No arguments or drama, just everyone keeps what they get. do enough runs and it should even out.
And for those people who out of the kindness of their heart expect all to share their trust, generosity and their confidence in faction banks... You're STEALING from the people who are closest to you. You wouldn't ask a stranger to give up their share but you expect it from guildies? Come on, 90% of the time only a few indivuals benefit from faction's pool resources, the rest have to "wait" so long they end up getting their gear on their own. You can deduct the higher expenses of barbs and clerics but after that EVERYONE DOING A RUN DESERVES AN EQUAL SHARE OR AN EQUAL SHOT AT MATS. Anything else is disrespecting the people you squad with.0 -
As for doing HH runs for free? I'm sorry, I have costs associated with running HH. Usually 15-20k in repairs, 30-40k in pots, and probably 20-30k in genie fuel spent for group amp/sparks. There is also the factor of time. Nobody should be expected to go into a HH run and come out empty handed, especially since all of the better runs, 1-3, 2-2 and 2-3 can drop extremely well. 3-1 is the only exception, though it's quick so running 2-3 at a time usually works out fine. And, it's not about greed at all, if you spend your time, pots and charm/fuel expenses you should be fairly compensated.
I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. I'm not a greedy person, but if I've spent time, money, and pots on a run I'd like to be compensated. I've done runs to help guildies get their gear and I'm happy to donate to our faction bank, but I'd like to get at least something to show for the run.
What really annoys me is that I'm always put in the DD category. In a 2-3 run, I'll tank 4 out of the 7 bosses(assuming we're not doing Belial) leaving the other 3 bosses for the Barb. This significantly lowers the Barb's repair costs and possible charm usage. I'm not sure if Clerics use more of their charm when they DD or heal, but I'm sure that having me tank and everyone else DDing makes the run go much faster and thus saving money for everyone involved. However, Venos get no credit for this.0 -
If I'm doing it with random people I just go with the normal tank, cleric, dd's in order of highest to lowest. Pickup groups suck, so I tend to avoid them if at all possible. I intensely despise quite a few strats that are commonly accepted and inefficient to say the least (Dimentora/Shooting Aur pull, Astralwalker, etc...) and have found that it's just not worth showing/teaching people better ways as it just leads to hassle and confusion, which kills people. Not to mention, it makes me look like a complete noob to the other 5 people in the squad, and I'm already good at looking like that from over nuking things my pet tanks. I don't need more help with it.
Back on topic though, I find that standard rule absurd. If I tank a TT with my pets, I get first pick for being the tank, the cleric still gets second pick for being the cleric, and the DD's still get the last picks. What part of that makes any sense at all? The rule doesn't revolve around costs like people quickly claim, it's based around a preconceived notion of what roles are most important to the squad. Clerics always having second pick, tanks always having first, and DD's going last. If that weren't the case, why would a veno who tanks with a pet get first pick? There's no armor repair costs for the tank, no charm ticks for the tank, the veno doesn't even pay a repair to heal the tank... yet goes first if the pet tanks, the cleric would be in a DD role and relatively ineffective at it too, yet goes before the real dd's. I hate the tank/cleric/DD rule, but expecting something halfway intelligent out of pickup groups is setting the bar way too high.
When I run with friends we'll split stuff up so that people mostly get what they need for gear first, and generally use mirages to cover subs. Barbarians/Clerics get a little more for increased costs, as do Wizards when we have one run with us. Since we always have 1 herc when I'm around, and quite often 2 hercs when another veno is on, we can also cut Barbarian costs (and by extention, cleric costs) a good bit by having the herc tank certain things. For example in 2-2 hercs will do between 40% and 70% of the tanking on clears (depending on if we have one or two), mainly having the Barbarian tank the mob currently being killed, then hercs picking up the first two adds. Any beyond that going to the barb (sometimes the barb tanking once he's on a herc mob, sometimes not) along with a herc tanking Fataliqua, Feng, Soul, and Astralwalker. That helps to cut charm/repair costs quite a bit as the barb isn't taking a beating, and the loss of one veno nuking is more than made up for by the barb+cleric getting to dd, which then brings about a faster kill as well... further increasing our coin/hour intake, and reduces the chance of a wipe (dead mobs can't tick charms, dent armor, or kill you).
If doing an FB rather than TT we'll sum up costs for wines, charms, repairs, etc... and cover those costs first, splitting the remaining coin from items (including junk drops). This usually only happens when the squad is smaller though, it gets to be a large hassle to calculate in a full squad.ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »Hmm..you spent only 100-200k? O.o then i must do something wrong :P one TT-run eats 30% of my charm..which are equal to 500k now. Also ..yes it seems like unfair to wiz and all DDs. But consider the fact that this squad could have survived without a wiz (they CAN wait till their MP gets up and DD again)...but not without a cleric. So guess nothing against this system. Tho it is unfair...but there is no other solution for me then selling mats in AH and split the cash.
Err... 30% of a mana charm is 270k mana, that's 54 Yuanxiao which is 3.24 tokens. At 20k per token that's 64800 coin, not 500k. In fact, at DW prices, 400k gold means you spend 6.12 mil for 5 charms, which is 1224000 per charm. 30% of a charm is 367200. You're counting your costs pretty high, and could cut them in 1/6 if you wanted to.Alyyy - Sanctuary wrote: »since when do wizards get into TT's xD?
Find a squad that would rather have dps than healing. I haven't done 2-3 or any of the 3-x yet, but so far I haven't run into a single mob that takes more than one cleric against someone appropriately geared. There's one wizard my squad takes a lot actually since he's pretty good. The idea of loading up on defense is well... dumb. It leads to higher repair costs and longer runs.Pet selection should be based on attack rate and damage output (assuming barb is tanking) - hercules is not be all end all either -_-'
In TT it is. You don't want many skills due to aggro, herc is the top attack/sec land pet. Oh, and it can tank some bosses saving the barbs repair bill/charm. On the clearing portion I would agree with you. The one skill slot for aggro is a big hit for the herc, and a magmite/cub makes a superior pet, as the squad can burn the mob down much more safely. The problem lots of venos run into I think, is pet bag slots. I know that's the reason I don't have a magmite/cub for clears, I imagine it is for several others too.And how many runs do you need exactly for full TT-70 gear? How many of those do you expect people to help with getting nothing for themselves?
If they're my friends? Whether it's 1 or 100 runs I expect them to help with all they're available for. The reason? I'll help with theirs for that same circumstance. However, this is a misleading argument as not every item is required, and as items are finished off, it would only be fair to give others the ones you don't need for specific pieces of gear. Which means so long as items drop there would always be things the person you're running it for isn't able to use. There's actually a fairly solid rational behind this too. If you run with the same few people... don't seek to profit off them, seek to do everything to make them stronger. The stronger anyone in your squad gets (not just you the individual) the stronger your squad overall gets, which then lets you make future runs for less time/cost and hit harder content at greater efficiency, which then makes you get stronger faster, and the cycle repeats itself.What really annoys me is that I'm always put in the DD category. In a 2-3 run, I'll tank 4 out of the 7 bosses(assuming we're not doing Belial) leaving the other 3 bosses for the Barb. This significantly lowers the Barb's repair costs and possible charm usage. I'm not sure if Clerics use more of their charm when they DD or heal, but I'm sure that having me tank and everyone else DDing makes the run go much faster and thus saving money for everyone involved. However, Venos get no credit for this.
I find it to be the case of you're tanking the normal mobs too and all (or all but one) boss. More than that and it goes to a Barbarian first, if present. If first pick is based on costs though, you can't really say it's unfair for a veno to not get first pick. As I said above, it's not like hercs tanking add to armor repairs, hp charm costs, or even our weapon repairs.0 -
FYI i went into a guild HH run.we did it all day and at the end the lead dropped 3mil coin and let the game auto split to cover repai costs that is also a good way to do an HH[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Through the darkness light can always emerge, it is only when the unwilling come upon this light that fear takes over. Emerging from this darkness takes more then courage, it takes faith in ones own mind and more importantly in ones own heart. To deny the light is to deny yourself the feeling of true happiness and true peace within your own soul. Denying your own happiness and your own soul is denying all that one has to live for."
~RedsRose0 -
Centetric - Lost City wrote: »FYI i went into a guild HH run.we did it all day and at the end the lead dropped 3mil coin and let the game auto split to cover repai costs that is also a good way to do an HH
There is still a question of who decided that 3m coin, split 6 ways, would cover everything spent, without under- or over-compensating anyone.
I'm not saying people shouldn't be compensated, but I am saying that walking into a TT saying, "I'm a <class> and I spend X coin every TT run, therefore I must receive coin/DQ/mat/page/etc to cover this cost" is a very slippery slope. Always remember that there is a chance that you may walk into to TT and nothing at all of value will drop. Then what? Who pays for who? Certainly some people spent more than others. So is it fair to have each absorb their own cost?
I think the end-all and be-all of things is that it is very possible to nickle-and-dime your friends to death, and that squabbling over the difference between 75k and 100k costs is not worth the time, effort, and bruised feelings it might cause.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
If they're my friends? Whether it's 1 or 100 runs I expect them to help with all they're available for. The reason? I'll help with theirs for that same circumstance. However, this is a misleading argument as not every item is required, and as items are finished off, it would only be fair to give others the ones you don't need for specific pieces of gear. Which means so long as items drop there would always be things the person you're running it for isn't able to use. There's actually a fairly solid rational behind this too. If you run with the same few people... don't seek to profit off them, seek to do everything to make them stronger. The stronger anyone in your squad gets (not just you the individual) the stronger your squad overall gets, which then lets you make future runs for less time/cost and hit harder content at greater efficiency, which then makes you get stronger faster, and the cycle repeats itself.
Dude, it's not about you and your bff club, it's about a rule of thumb you can obviously break for your friends. Can you honestly tell me not once someone, you've gone out of your way for, has disapointed you when it was your turn to ask for help? And next time please actually address the point i'm making in my post and not what was meant as a rethorical question...0 -
Alphae - Lost City wrote: »There is still a question of who decided that 3m coin, split 6 ways, would cover everything spent, without under- or over-compensating anyone.
I'm not saying people shouldn't be compensated, but I am saying that walking into a TT saying, "I'm a <class> and I spend X coin every TT run, therefore I must receive coin/DQ/mat/page/etc to cover this cost" is a very slippery slope. Always remember that there is a chance that you may walk into to TT and nothing at all of value will drop. Then what? Who pays for who? Certainly some people spent more than others. So is it fair to have each absorb their own cost?
I think the end-all and be-all of things is that it is very possible to nickle-and-dime your friends to death, and that squabbling over the difference between 75k and 100k costs is not worth the time, effort, and bruised feelings it might cause.
yea u do make a very decent argument about that. the thing is.............the squad was made of 2 venos, 2 clerics, and 1 BM so ................. i think we all deserved the compensation.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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~RedsRose0 -
If they're not someone I run with a lot (of the 7 of us total, I've known 2 of them for 2 years, one for 8 across multiple games... so I don't expect to be screwed by them, pretty much ever), I have zero expectations. As I said at the top of my last post... I hate pickup groups, you just put your time in, act like a mindless zombie, get your split, and leave. I wouldn't expect anyone in that situation to help anyone else at no benefit for themselves. Some help others anyways in that situation, but it's rare. Just use a normal loot split method and be done with it. Pickup groups only exist to fill in gaps until regular groups are built anyways.
As for being disappointed by people? Not really. I'm fully aware that MMO culture is pretty much one of people looking at very short term gains, and only wanting to help themselves. It's an inefficient way to play that satisfies the ego for a bit. If someone that I thought was going to help in return for things I've helped them with ends up not doing it, I just move on and don't help the person in the future. I honestly see it as their loss, not mine. They lose guaranteed help in the future for farming higher end things, in exchange for items which after a couple months will be replaced. I lose nothing except some trivial drops, and gain knowledge about the persons personality. Why get worked up over it?0 -
Alphae - Lost City wrote: »I don't think anyone could realistically expect you do to a run "for free." But there are a couple things to consider:
1. Anytime you step into an instance, you're automatically losing money. Short of every boss dropping 2 2m gold mats, you're never going to make as much in the instance as you would grinding outside of it.
That's really not true at all. FB you're ganing xp and rep. BH you're gaining xp. HH, you should be getting either mats or a split of what drops.
Considering on our server GBA is selling for 1m, Dust 500k, Antenna 800k, Arm 800k, etc... If you hand out mats to those who need them and sell and split the rest, 150-300k per run is EASY. If gold drops, that's just a really nice bonus.2. Everyone runs a TT differently. I personally cringe every time I'm DD/pull in TT and someone uses genie amp. I also cringe when I bring a cleric that anytime *anyone's* HP drops to about half, they slap up BB and tick-tick-tick goes the charm. TT up-front costs can be considerably reduced--some at the expense of your time, some not. It's up to each player to play intelligently, and I am not going to compensate you if you're popping L10 extreme poison on every mob and L10 holy path all the time just for kicks. That's on your head, not mine. Of course, there are some bosses that are more expensive than others--AOE bosses are always more expensive, for instance, than non-AOE bosses, all else being equal. Again, it's up to each tank/cleric/DD to play intelligently, and yes, as frugally as time will allow. Frankly, if you don't have time to run a charmless, genie-less TT, you really don't have time to run TT in my book.
Regardless of someone using a genie or not, your time is no more precious than mine, unless one of us is extreme fail, aggroing mobs they're not supposed to, or not performing the task they need to do, everyone who does their job should be treated equally.
And yeah, using genie amp on most regular mobs isn't the norm, but using genie amps in combo with skill amps and sparks done in group... it's nice to see timed boss in 3-1 drop in under a minute.
Personally, if I get a 2nd veno in just to pull for 3-1, and all they do is amp and pull, they've done the job that was required and deserve and equal share.
Some venos are greedy thinking, oh well I can do this mostly alone, so they would never agree to those kinds of terms (which frankly, you sound like you fit into this bill,) then you can waste 2 hours doing a HH that can be done in 1/3 the time with proper assistance. And being able to do 2 or 3 runs in the same amount of time is more profitable for everyone... if you're doing a money run that is. Some venos are just so used to doing it themselves, or are just too plain greedy to realize this. I meet them all the time.3. It's very difficult to put an exact price on what each person spends on TT. It basically comes down to how much they like TT, the people involved, and how much they want to be compensated for. Unless your squad has an excellent run, if you're running for someone to get a specific mat, most of the time that someone is going to come out ahead, and the rest of you all will come out a bit behind. If they start paying for subs PLUS the "cost" of all of you coming with them, they might as well just buy the mat from someone else and save everyone the time.
Actually that's not true since we do it all the time. Each member repairs before runs start. Cleric notes what # their charm is and how much is used. I know I use 20-30 mana pots per run, and even though I don't keep track of it, I can see how much genie fuel is depleted, which is about 10-15 pstones per run, sometimes more depending if we do certain bosses that are normally skipped without a second cleric or barb.
And who said anything about the subber paying for anything? It's rare that you can't make a profit from 1-3, 2-2 or 2-3... Sure, there have been a couple of rare instances where nothing dropped, but that's rare. In cases like 3-1, you need to do several runs at a time (hey, it's only 30-40m each run anyway) and then you'll do just fine.
As for doing runs for people's gear? Ummm... yeah, I guess you could say they're making out better, but rarely does someone need all the mats from a run, and unles you're talking about 1-1/2 and 2-1 which both drop ****, everyone can at least make a little coin from doing a run, including covering costs of charms, subs and what not.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
My favorite solution (on the rare occasions I TT outside of solo mode) is to ask for Pots/Powders up front. I let them know just what I expect to use during the run, and request portions of that cost (or in some cases the entirety is provided by a DD) in exchange for a higher spot in the pecking order. Thus far, it's worked out quite nicely (again...not that I TT often, so it's not like it's an issue often), as DDs are usually more than happy to part with a few Herb Yuanxiao (Remember ladies and gents...you can get 150k MP for 60kish at the moment if you look hard enough...and those pots will last you SO much longer than a charm will if you can make them stretch) or Concentrate Orbs in exchange for a better shot at one of those 2mil mats.=30
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Mats for Guild Bank? Guild TT runs? *shrugs* Been there, seen that, don't want to do it never ever again. People in genereal are selfish. I am fine with helping to get mats for someone who needs them, if I get something too to at least cover repair/pot/food costs. Was in guild which had only guild TT runs, all mats and mirages went to guild to be distributed to those who needed them. Priority was to those who made regular runs. Reality, I ran quite few runs with them, stated what I needed too, but in the end got nothing to cover up my expenses, didn't get the gear/mat I needed and found out that guild only "lends" gears not gives them. Pissed me off soon and I left the guild with excuse that I didn't fit in. What use of running "for" guild if only selected few ppl get gears? What motivation could I have to farm mats for others if I still need my own gears and get nothing back?
I aggree that barb/cleric should get the most expensive mats, but the one who needs the mat can call in too. I accept that that subber gives sub and says which mats he needs BEFORE run. So it is more like a gamble - if boss drops them, then lucky you. If boss doesn't drop the mat you called for, then usual distribution system comes in.0 -
Mats go to the people who need them in order by level.
Rest goes to guild bank.The only way to win is to quit. b:bye0 -
So far for our fac, its fair split + the ones a person needs.
If someone needs a mat, we run TT for them. They get the pieces they need on a run whether the price turns out to be a few million them alone. The rest is split between the remaining runners. We can expect them to help us without complaining that they want more of their share, thats why we have no problem handing over million coin worth mats to whoever needs.
Of course there are exceptions. No one is gonna hand over a TT mat that costs millions to a stranger who joined the faction just yesterday. Its a give and take situation.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]lagunal8.deviantart.com
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Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »Then, we're going to try out the auction system for mat splitting, as follows:
Figure out a starting bid and minimum increment for each mat. example is Antenna, starting bid of 1.5 mil, 100k increments. If I win for 2mil, I give banker 2 mil in coins, he drops on floor, and picks up pile, splitting coins evenly amongst everyone, giving them 333,333. Proceed with next mat.
It's not too bad. The key is for the everyone to keep track of how much money they make in the TT runs, so they have a tangible figure to say, "I've made 2.4 million in the past 4 runs" or something like that. That way, you can spend the coins to buy the materials you need off of the AH, and you can then say "I got these materials in 4 runs."
One thing to point out is that dropping a bunch of coins and picking them up means you actually pay 5/6 of the amount you bid. So if I bid on an Antenna for 2m, drop, pickup, I end up only paying 5/6 of that.
EDIT: I decided my new suggestion was not good.0 -
RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »^^ This ^^
Except, if you do not need it, it goes to the guild bank (HH90).
If not, generally in the runs I have been on everything is split as evenly as possible and about what you described if someone were to "call" a certain mat.
It gets interesting in 2-3 when someone is going for GX and wants Belial.....
this is the best way to do things IMO if the runs are being done by people who need their gear. The problem with the system in my old faction with my (semi retired) 70 veno, which went Barb/BB Cleric(s)/DD by level, and 2 mirages to the subber - was that it was always the same couple of barbs and clerics tanking/healing the runs each time. Despite the fact that they had long since completed their gear and no longer needed the rarer mats that the others did, their greed would consume them and constantly they would pick the one Broken Shard of GA that dropped on the run. There would have to be 4 of those drop in a run for any of the DD's to get one, since the clerics and tank would ALWAYS choose it regardless. I became fed up with that, talked with the leadership of the faction regarding the issue - was essentially told that I was "too needy" and "wrong" for wanting to have my gear, and for the other DD's to have their gear, when it was time to have it - and not 10-20 levels and 200 runs later. I left that faction, started this character as well as my own faction, and when we get to that stage - things will be as described in the post you are quoting above when the runs are being done for gear's sake. My personal idea as relates to this issue is basically "he who needs it first gets it first" thereby a tank and cleric who are lower level than the player who needs something do not take precedence over the player who actually needs it now or 5 levels ago. In essence, all players interested in getting TT gear must at least make an effort to:
1) look in the forges to see what they need, and make note of it
2) post needed materials on the faction forum - keeping it updated to let us know where they stand (we cant all keep track of FC/PC at all times)
3) their personal order of preference for gear completion
when group forms, the understanding will be that X player who needs X mats will get X drops from X boss, next lower level player (Y) will get Y mats from Y boss - and so on. When the amount of items to complete a gear piece is accumulated, the drops rotate to the next player who still needs it. If no one needs it, its my personal opinion that 1 of 2 things should happen:
1) donated to faction vault in order to be sold at a fair price to faction members who wish not to participate in TT runs but would still like TT gear,
2) entrusted to ranking player in faction to be sold at AH, proceeds to be split evenly between party members participating in the runs.
non material drops such as DQ items can be left with whomever they land with, whilst perfect stones, mirages, and crusade orders can be left to the "pick" system. Ideally however, the players with highest costs will be given the majority of these items to subsidize the repair bills/charms (if worn). this last part is up to the party to decide prior to engagement, although the material distribution is a must to be done in such a manner as described. No one class is more important than the next, therefore should not be relegated to "picking" 4th simply because they choose to be a wizard, veno, archer, or BM.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Retired..0 -
One thing to point out is that dropping a bunch of coins and picking them up means you actually pay 5/6 of the amount you bid. So if I bid on an Antenna for 2m, drop, pickup, I end up only paying 5/6 of that.
That's the point. The buyer is compensating the other 5 members of the squad for the mat he/she is buying. The last 1/6 is the buyer's share. The buyer gets the mat at a discount, the rest of the squad gets paid, and everyone's happy.
That's the usual procedure for gold mats/Dust of Devils, but in the higher TTs some of the green mats are worth just as much if not more than gold mats. The disparity between the high priced mats and lower priced mats means the DDs and Venos have to do many more runs to get the mats they need whereas the clerics and barbs get the expensive mats relatively easy.0
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