Scamming runs rampant=loss of players

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The reason I am not counting the shop names is because that is what they are, just names.

there is a diff. between a store name that doesnt state a specific item, and a store name that does describe and point to a specific item.

The same way I cannot claim you are false advertising yourself because your name is Deceptistar, and as far as I can tell you do not look like one.

wtf is a deceptistar look like rofl

Also, if you were to enforce the shop names needing to reflect what is being sold, 99% of all catshops would be banned. Ever seen the shop that says "cheap stuff" and is not selling cheap stuff? Of the one who's name is "stuff you need" and there is not a single item in there that you want to buy? How about the shop that says "lots 3* items" and there is only one?

As i said selling something with the intention of hoping the buyer thinks it as another item, can be accounted as fraud. Pple dont sue because stores dont replenish things. They just walk away witha frown and a full wallet.

If you want to go with RL examples, Payless shoe stores sell shoes for more money than Wallmart. Do people sue Payless over the missleading store name?

PAYLESS is a name brand. If they are actually to promote "PAYLESS THAN XXX STORE" then you bet it would cause some disturbance.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So howcome Payless shoes is still in business under that name?

The name lacks a specific. As long as the cheapest pair of shes at Payless costs less than the most expensive pair at Walmart, their name is truthful. Now, if all the shoes at Payless were more expensive except for one pair, then they'd probably get slapped by the FTC as a bait and switch shop.

Anyhow, at this point it's probably too late. PWI has established PW as a type of game where little to nothing is done about scamming.* As a result, people who actually care about being nice to each other will continue to leave for other games, leaving just the scammers and the unsympathetic folks, like the ones in this thread calling the OP's friend an idiot, to wallow in the filth of their own creation. Walking through Archo, there are usually 2-3 scam shops nearby at any moment. And it's only going to get worse.

I've been scaling back my cat shop interactions (both buying and selling) and am relying more on the AH because I just know that no matter how careful I am, one night I'll be tired and I'll slip up. The critics blaming the victim here are basically asking everyone to be perfect in their cat shop purchases 100% of the time. That's an impossible goal to achieve, and basing social policy around the assumption that it can be achieved it is just stupid.

*And no, requesting screenshots and quietly giving the scammer a temporary ban does not cut it. This is the type of thing which requires a public display of force to be effective. Like the security inspection at the airport. The chances that they'll actually stop a bomber is probably less than 50%, but the illusion they create of a thorough security check reassures the traveling public and discourages would-be bombers much more than the actual efficacy of the check itself.

Foxx - Heavens Tear

Saying that the shop title doesnt count is just being stubborn, and stupid. You may as well say people are free to lie about what they are selling over trade channel too "because its only a chat channel" and they stil have the mouseover ability.

The fact is (whether you accept it or not) that they are deliberately lying in order to trick the unsuspecting buyer into buying something else. The fact that it relies on the buyer being stupid and not checking doesnt suddenly absolve the seller of all wrong.

Also the claim that people are allowed to sell overpriced items is totally missing the point. Its one thing to sell healing orbs at 50k and call your shop "healing orbs", or just "stuff", and another to call it "ultimate subs" when you dont have any ultimate subs. Again, its obvious attempt at deception, and just because it requires the buyer to be sloppy and not check doesnt make it not a scam.

You know most scams in the real world wouldnt work either if the "buyer" took the time to find out more information about the seller or what they are selling. Most work on misplaced trust or just stupidity, but I suppose according to you they aren't scams because the buyer didnt take adequate precautions.

Foxx - Heavens Tear

Having said that, whether or not its PWI's duty to police it, or even if it should be policed is a debatable point. In a world where its ok to go and kill someone, and it is even encouraged on pve servers in places where there is significant loss in time and money (eg cube), I wonder why the people who get scammed should get special treatment.

Aadi - Lost City

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The critics blaming the victim here are basically asking everyone to be perfect in their cat shop purchases 100% of the time. That's an impossible goal to achieve, and basing social policy around the assumption that it can be achieved it is just stupid.

No one's saying scamming people is "right" in any way. Scamming is very under-policed in this game, I'm sure nearly everyone can agree to that at the least. But at the same time no one can say that the buyer has no fault in this.

I'm not perfect either, I've been scammed before (the old shabby-for-blemished trick my first Crazy Stone b:surrender). The difference was that I learned from it. Every time I buy stones since then, I've double and triple checked both the price and every individual stone before I buy it.

It would be ideal if just all the scammers could be removed from the game, of course. Or if people decided to stop scamming. But the truth is, unless the game is very restrictive on sales or shop names or where you can sell items, there will always be people trying to trick a newbie or someone not paying attention into paying them money or valuable items. If there's a way to get around it, especially something as mind-numbingly simple as pausing a few seconds over the icon to read if it is the correct item, and the buyer refuses to check, I don't understand how the buyer could be blame-free.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Foxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You know most scams in the real world wouldnt work either if the "buyer" took the time to find out more information about the seller or what they are selling. Most work on misplaced trust or just stupidity, but I suppose according to you they aren't scams because the buyer didnt take adequate precautions.

Don't forget greed, greed is actualy the key element to make any scheme work, the person doing it is banking on the buyer's greed to blind him from the obvious facts.

kanel321

Wow ! so now we get to shop names as being the problem. This is stupid. If I am legitmately selling both Tokens of luck and best tokens of luck and my catsign reads: SELLING TOKENS OF BEST LUCK am I a scammer if someone buys my best tokens and I just have regular ones left. Second deceptistar your definition on false advertising is wrong , false advertising is when a store advertises a promotion or deal and then when u go in they tell you its out or the price has changed or the deal is no longer available but then they try to get you to purchase the item or a similar item for another price or deal. If I run out of Best Tokens and my catshop sign says I have them and you go in and see regular tokens and think they are best luck and then buy them assuming that they are best luck tokens then you are a moron. Those people can not change the name of the item in the game. the last time i checked you had to drag the item to the purchase area and then click buy to get it . I think what is happening here is people get 'scammed' and then go crying . You never ever buy anything in life or virtual reality without checking first. Oh whats that ? the items look the same ! well guess what they have for the last year now . Get used to it . mouse over and see what you are purchasing and stop screaming scammer because of your ignorance.

- Quoted- As i said selling something with the intention of hoping the buyer thinks it as another item, can be accounted as fraud--

This is bull, have you ever heard of no name brands, the whole premise of a no name brand is to create something that looks alike but isnt. But this has no relevance in a game. The seller can not cleverly package something to make it something it is not . Hence no scam .People will no doubt say: Your title counts!!! but to them i say prove they never had that item.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

If you had the item in your shop or not is irrelevant. You named your shop badly if it could ever be seen as a scam at all.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Foxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

.

Remember, any policy rules that get implemented will need to be easy to follow. That means, if you want shop name to matter, than PWI policy would have to be to make it ALL shop name miss-representations or missleading names to be illegal. That would include the person obviously trying to take advantage of others to the tired guy that grabbed the wrong items or that forgot to put something on the shop name.

Look at the current TOS. All the things listed as illegal do not have any exceptions listed.

The only solution to this problem is to remove cat shops and force everyone to use Auction House, since even Zoe's suggestion could cause people to try to take advantage of other players.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

How could you scam based on shop name when you can't control what your shop name even is?

It can automatically name the highest priced item you have there, then change to the next highest once the first one sells out. It could also be done by quantity. With automatic shop names, name scams won't be possible.

kanel321

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you had the item in your shop or not is irrelevant. You named your shop badly if it could ever be seen as a scam at all.

what ??? explain please.... if I have Best luck tokens and I go to bed and name my shop : SELLING BEST LUCK TOKENS!!! and I sell out of them and have regulars left then it is my fault cause I named my shop incorrectly.Bull.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

kanel321 wrote: »

what ??? explain please.... if I have Best luck tokens and I go to bed and name my shop : SELLING BEST LUCK TOKENS!!! and I sell out of them and have regulars left then it is my fault cause I named my shop incorrectly.Bull.

Yes it is your fault. That can be considered a scam (a very minor one in the case of this example that you gave) once the best ones sell out. If you want to keep your shop accurate when you sell out, you can simply say you are selling luck tokens. BOTH types have "luck token" in the name so no matter what happens it cannot be considered a scam.

As I said though your example is just a very minor thing. The major issue is when they say they are selling best luck tokens, but have normal ones at best luck prices.

kanel321

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How could you scam based on shop name when you can't control what your shop name even is?

It can automatically name the highest priced item you have there, then change to the next highest once the first one sells out. It could also be done by quantity. With automatic shop names, name scams won't be possible.

This would never work. First catshops are not just for selling but for buying items too. So If I want to sell and buy and item I cant name my catshop appropriately. Second this would mean that a script would have to run for every single catshop. This would make catshops even more laggy then they are now.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How could you scam based on shop name when you can't control what your shop name even is?

It can automatically name the highest priced item you have there, then change to the next highest once the first one sells out. It could also be done by quantity. With automatic shop names, name scams won't be possible.

You have a shop and have subs priced at 1 coin higher than orbs, and you mix and match them in your display window. Shop name will say Subs, and people will not pay attention and buy the orbs and complain they got scammed. Not that much different than what some shops do nowadays.

So, technically, you will still have name scams. Alternatively, you set one item at a very high price, to "fix" the shop name, and than you can price the rest of the stuff in the shop as you wish. In the case of stones, you can still pull the one of the sets way overpriced by having one stone for sale for more coin, and the shop name would just list that stone. If you were to add the cost, than they could just put one higher grade stone at 350k and still play the game of the "wrong price" other gem.

Besides, with the amount of work you are suggesting, and it would still have holes, wouldn't just be easier to remove catshops and make everyone use AH?

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

kanel321 wrote: »

what ??? explain please.... if I have Best luck tokens and I go to bed and name my shop : SELLING BEST LUCK TOKENS!!! and I sell out of them and have regulars left then it is my fault cause I named my shop incorrectly.Bull.

If all you had left was luck tokens, selling at 15k, then most look & say; "guess the best luck sold out" "oh well" & go on their merry way. The thought of scam doesnt cross their mind. Now if all you have left is regular luck tokens priced at 4 mil, then news flash, you're a scammer & should be banned.

kanel321

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes it is your fault. That can be considered a scam (a very minor one in the case of this example that you gave) once the best ones sell out. If you want to keep your shop accurate when you sell out, you can simply say you are selling luck tokens. BOTH types have "luck token" in the name so no matter what happens it cannot be considered a scam.

As I said though your example is just a very minor thing. The major issue is when they say they are selling best luck tokens, but have normal ones at best luck prices.

LOL! do catshops timeout ?? the answer is no . Lots of people go afk in catshop mode but you are saying that is wrong ?? LOL! First I am not going to go to the store and rush back or get up in the middle of the night because someone may have purchase my Best Luck token and my shop name is no longer accurate. Sorry but most ppl are afk in catshop mode and that is not a scam.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Funny how you totally ignore what I suggested.

kanel321

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If all you had left was luck tokens, selling at 15k, then most look & say; "guess the best luck sold out" "oh well" & go on their merry way. The thought of scam doesnt cross their mind. Now if all you have left is regular luck tokens priced at 4 mil, then news flash, you're a scammer & should be banned.

so is it price or title then. I am allowed to sell at whatever price i feel like it. Who says it has to be in the millions. If i want to sell a best token at lets say 29 k each is that scamming?? how about 100 k , am i scamming yet ?? is there some unwritten law that says if you price an item millions over what its worth its scamming ?? No there is not. I can sell for whatever price I like , doesnt mean you have to buy it. The only way that i agree that is is scamming is if PWE placed in a regulatory body to govern price and I went above it . Untill that is in place its not scamming.

FatherTed - Dreamweaver

So if I have 2 best luck tokens I really want to sell cheap and 15 regular luck tokens I don't mind getting rid of if the price is right - I should be forced to name the catshop 'Luck Tokens'?

Alexeno - Sanctuary

kanel321 wrote: »

wall of text

get it through that thick skull of yours:

naming a catshop "Best Luck", then putting normal luck tokens in it at 4-5mil (normal pricing for best luck tokens), is a scam for the following reason:

you are deliberately attempting to cause someone to buy a cheap item, for the price of the rare item, since the two items share an almost identical inventory picture, and are therefore scamming them

go here ---> LINK

now go here ---> LINK

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Check this one too:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/naive

To solve all the problems with catshop issues, and to save people from themselves, lets just remove all catshops and player to player trades and force everyeone to use AH. I am sure it would be much harder for anyone to complain they got scammed in the AH, although that would still not prevent people from buying overpriced items.....

Alexeno - Sanctuary

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

just remove all catshops and force everyeone to use AH

^ this ^

i snipped the part about personal trades, because people still need a way to trade items between eachother when inside instances and whatnot

Vorawrcious - Harshlands

OP, could i get the name of your poor friend? That is terrible what happened! I can't believe my eyes when i read your heart felt thread sticking up for your friend. Again, plz let me get into contact with this person who got scammed by that scoundrel SOB. I would like to confort him to make him feel better... and... possible sell him a few "cheap" items to lift his spirits.

kanel321

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Check this one too:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/naive

To solve all the problems with catshop issues, and to save people from themselves, lets just remove all catshops and player to player trades and force everyeone to use AH. I am sure it would be much harder for anyone to complain they got scammed in the AH, although that would still not prevent people from buying overpriced items.....

omg, first off catshops are fair game, the owner of the catshop has the right to sell an item at whatever price they like. You are making an assumption when you say:

'you are deliberately attempting to cause someone to buy a cheap item, for the price of the rare item, since the two items share an almost identical inventory picture, and are therefore scamming them'

First you are assuming that the person who sells it at 5-6 mil is trying to scam they could of coure be wanting to sell it . What if they opened a catshop and sold items regular tokens for 10.5 mil is that a scam ? its no longer at best token price then. I feel for these people who get 'scammed' but as a said in my first post it is their fault for being ignorant. So the price of a regular should not be anywhere close to the actual best luck , sure , you get no argument from me there but catshops do no limit you in whatever price u want to sell for. Also it is not against the rules to price something at a price way higher that what is it worth. And yes the naive article is exaclty correct . look before you buy.

kanel321

maybe all catshops need to be removed but those who did not bother to look at what they are buying will probably still find something to complain about even if we only used AH.

Alexeno - Sanctuary

kanel321 wrote: »

another wall of text

omg, are you serious? lets try this again

read the red text, then read the blue text

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

naming a catshop "Best Luck", then putting normal luck tokens in it at 4-5mil

if you want to argue a point, at least have the common intelligence to read the entire opposing argument


this person has officially made me:

kanel321 wrote: »

maybe all catshops need to be removed but those who did not bother to look at what they are buying will probably still find something to complain about even if we only used AH.

yes, they'll complain about having to pay the AH fee for minor items

kanel321

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

omg, are you serious? lets try this again

read the red text, then read the blue text



if you want to argue a point, at least have the common intelligence to read the entire opposing argument


this person has officially made me:





yes, they'll complain about having to pay the AH fee for minor items

omg, yet again you do not read yourself. I have already said in a previous comment that if the person just opened a catshop advertising best tokens but never had any and was trying to sell regulars at the price then that was a scam. Come on now . please read. I see by the unwilligness to read before you do something that u are exactly the personality that gets scammed.

Alexeno - Sanctuary

kanel321 wrote: »

omg, yet again you do not read yourself. I have already said in a previous comment that if the person just opened a catshop advertising best tokens but never had any and was trying to sell regulars at the price then that was a scam. Come on now . please read. I see by the unwilligness to read before you do something that u are exactly the personality that gets scammed.

your reply to my post is quoted below. nowhere in your post did you mention

that if the person just opened a catshop advertising best tokens but never had any and was trying to sell regulars at the price then that was a scam

your reply to my post:

kanel321 wrote: »

omg, first off catshops are fair game, the owner of the catshop has the right to sell an item at whatever price they like. You are making an assumption when you say:

'you are deliberately attempting to cause someone to buy a cheap item, for the price of the rare item, since the two items share an almost identical inventory picture, and are therefore scamming them'

First you are assuming that the person who sells it at 5-6 mil is trying to scam they could of coure be wanting to sell it . What if they opened a catshop and sold items regular tokens for 10.5 mil is that a scam ? its no longer at best token price then. I feel for these people who get 'scammed' but as a said in my first post it is their fault for being ignorant. So the price of a regular should not be anywhere close to the actual best luck , sure , you get no argument from me there but catshops do no limit you in whatever price u want to sell for. Also it is not against the rules to price something at a price way higher that what is it worth. And yes the naive article is exaclty correct . look before you buy.

Aquilonian - Dreamweaver

Hai Guise!!! looke what I found guise! he he he

Alexeno - Sanctuary

Aquilonian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hai Guise!!! looke what I found guise! he he he

-snip-

might want to edit the name on the second pic b:chuckle