DQ Horses: Options?

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  • Darkjagans - Heavens Tear
    Darkjagans - Heavens Tear Posts: 478 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sorry but no. Tell that to the pkers that will grief everyone as much as they can, trying to make them quit the game so they lose all the Time, Effort, and Money they used on the game already.

    What about the constant scamming that goes on that robs players of the Time, Effort, and Money they put in to get what they have?

    Your argument does not apply until things like this are first fixed.

    You're not making much sense...

    Not everything is about PK this and PK that, and once again, it is ultimately the player who decides whether to PK or not

    How is all that even relevant, completely different issues
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    Alphae - Lost City wrote: »
    Do remember that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless.

    It also gives the person with a mouth full of teeth an advantage over people that are missing teeth..... That is why it is important to brush your teeth and floss.....

    Extra sparkles are always good :)
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    Alphae - Lost City wrote: »
    Do remember that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless.

    Your problem, not mine. Stop doing/saying things that would cause the need for a return to you equal to the **** you people put out.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Tatuaje - Lost City
    Tatuaje - Lost City Posts: 2,780 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    Look at the POLL

    Roughly 40% want them to stay in shop.

    Roughly 50% want them out now or soon enough.

    If the voting was more like 80% wants them out now then maybe you have a chance but the voting shows that its almost down the middle for keeping vs. getting rid of them.

    Nothings going to change because for sure there are bigger things coming that will take the place of the most recent rare items become less rare.
    tatuaje: grinding mobs and zhenning ???
    frankieraye:All right, I admit it, it's a bit retro. lol.
  • Darkjagans - Heavens Tear
    Darkjagans - Heavens Tear Posts: 478 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    It's highly expected nothing will change, but we just like exchanging thoughts :)
  • Redmenace - Heavens Tear
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear Posts: 908 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    If you base your enjoyment of the game on what *others* can see of your accomplishments, instead of how *you* feel about your accomplishments, then I feel sorry for you - and this game, or any game, will probably continue to dissapoint you.

    I understand the grumbling - my wife has been grinding thru DQ for many months trying to collect Dragon orders to get this mount. The amount of $$ in DQ drops that she's squirreled away would have made it much easier for us to equip, maintain and level the multiple chars we play in this game - now we can have that $$ back.

    It's a beautiful horse. Now some other people can have the beautiful mount they wanted without wasting months trying to get all those orders together.

    You got yours through long, hard work. Would you have, given the option, said "No thanks on the cash-shop White horse - I'd rather fight thru 50 copper and 50 silver dragon orders to get mine, thanks. My time is free", or would you have just bought the horse you wanted?

    If it means that much to you, name your horse "DQ-Made" so everyone can know how l33t you are.

    I''d rather enjoy the game, and enjoy my time with my new friends - instead of trying to impress a crapload of strangers with my 'leet ride.

    RedMenace

    \would rather kill things, and help where I can
    \\don't own any "fashion", either
    \\\yes, I bought one for the Wife, and she's happy to not have to do DQs anymore
    \\\\if this upsets you enough that you want to quit the game, then I'll try to "soldier on" without you <sniff>
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
    Robert A. Heinlein
  • Vinat - Sanctuary
    Vinat - Sanctuary Posts: 1,200 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    all the other mounts' prices were reduced too. granted they came from the cash shop to begin with, it's still the same thing, they've become less valuable. yet i dont see a bunch of people all upset about it. far more people lost a bit of money on those transactions than did on the dq horses.

    also the only reason those horses were so expensive to begin with was price gauging on the silver orders. unless something is in the cash shop, there is no ceiling to how much players can charge eachother for it. dont be mad at pw because you spent 20 mil to buy it from another player (or to buy orders) be mad at the people who charged 300k per order and 20mil per horse.
  • Viper_girl - Heavens Tear
    Viper_girl - Heavens Tear Posts: 541 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »
    all the other mounts' prices were reduced too. granted they came from the cash shop to begin with, it's still the same thing, they've become less valuable. yet i dont see a bunch of people all upset about it. far more people lost a bit of money on those transactions than did on the dq horses.

    also the only reason those horses were so expensive to begin with was price gauging on the silver orders. unless something is in the cash shop, there is no ceiling to how much players can charge eachother for it. dont be mad at pw because you spent 20 mil to buy it from another player (or to buy orders) be mad at the people who charged 300k per order and 20mil per horse.

    The Silver Order prices of around 300K before the cash shop release, simply reflects approximately how much it costs in DQ materials to obtain them. It is actually low if you base it off catshop DQ item prices. If you ever tried to get a significant number of Silver Orders by doing DQs you will know how hard and expensive it is.

    Of course now that there is nothing valuable to exchange them for there is a glut of Silver Orders in the market and the price should drop below 100K. I think around 75-100K per SO reflects what it would cost in SO to buy a Silvermane via the DQ route to make it even with Cashshop.

    Thanks goodness I got rid of my last SO before the market has adjusted the prices down fully.
  • Juggernaut - Harshlands
    Juggernaut - Harshlands Posts: 597 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    Kephras - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The decision to add these these to the cash shop undermines countless hours of gameplay, dedication, and commitment to a long-term goal - and for a scant $20 at that.

    Agreed 100%
    b:angry
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    Juggernaut - Harshlands wrote: »
    Agreed 100%
    b:angry

    Get over it. Stats and costwise, it is a sucky mount. Only thing that it has going for it is that it glows (glow is good).

    It is a 8m/s mount that costs 20 gold.
    The other 8m/s mounts costs 5 gold and 7.5gold.

    The 9m/s mounts cost 15gold
    The rare mounts, at max speed, 50gold

    By the time you double spurr the horsie, it will cost just about the same as the other "rare" mounts.

    My panther is my status symbol, and you do not see me complain that it is now worth less. (Got it at level with in-game coins.... that was soo much grinding to save up that much....... at level 20....)
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    Darkjagans - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You're not making much sense...

    Not everything is about PK this and PK that, and once again, it is ultimately the player who decides whether to PK or not

    How is all that even relevant, completely different issues
    I think its pretty relevant. it all boils down to Time, Effort, and Money. just they are using different/couple situations to explain, and pk just happened to be one aspect they put into their post, along with the other ones.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]lagunal8.deviantart.com
    ★"New weekly quests! "Discover the bug in the patch""-Nihillae★"My father would beat me if he found out I was QQing over a virtual pony."-Neurosis★"You're amongst the biggest blobs of fail I've ever seen in my life."-Ninnuam★"A statistic said 3% people of the world get enjoyment primarily from making people upset, and you are trying to discriminate them"-ilystah★["How To Tank Rebirth Order Delta (86+)"-Stickygreen Barb (1)restat. you want full magic, Arcane armour build (2)when mobs come /faceroll on your keyboard and you will one shot all the mobs (3)rinse and repeat]★"I've been spammed with 3 poops for 2 hours."-ColdSteele★"If someone fights learning, I don't bother with them outside of amusement factor."-Telarith★"This thread is a joke right? Please say yes."-eatwithspoons★ "This is why you don't post your opinions on the internet, most of the replies you get will be from people who missed a hug or two sometime in their youth."-Alacol★"Sexy! A post with a Binomial Distribution."-Asterelle★"It's about time PW starts to separate out the noob Sins from the rest."-salvati0n★"Shoo troll >:O"-TheDan
  • TheGoliath - Heavens Tear
    TheGoliath - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    I think the point is that now u can buy with golds a thing that was obtainable only ingame

    after bikini, mirages and dq horses what's next ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    TheGoliath - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I think the point is that now u can buy with golds a thing that was obtainable only ingame

    after bikini, mirages and dq horses what's next ?

    You have always been able to buy those horses with gold. They just cut the middle man.

    You could buy gold with cash, sell gold in-game, buy horse.
    or
    You could buy gold with cash, sell gold in-game, buy orders, trade them for horse.

    Since the orders and the horses are tradeable, there is really point to say that everyone that had one only got them from doing DQs.

    If the orders or the horses had been non-tradeble, than I would be one thing, but the way there were, they were easly bought with gold anyway, just for alot of gold....
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    TheGoliath - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I think the point is that now u can buy with golds a thing that was obtainable only ingame

    after bikini, mirages and dq horses what's next ?
    The asian servers have moar :O we just catchin up
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]lagunal8.deviantart.com
    ★"New weekly quests! "Discover the bug in the patch""-Nihillae★"My father would beat me if he found out I was QQing over a virtual pony."-Neurosis★"You're amongst the biggest blobs of fail I've ever seen in my life."-Ninnuam★"A statistic said 3% people of the world get enjoyment primarily from making people upset, and you are trying to discriminate them"-ilystah★["How To Tank Rebirth Order Delta (86+)"-Stickygreen Barb (1)restat. you want full magic, Arcane armour build (2)when mobs come /faceroll on your keyboard and you will one shot all the mobs (3)rinse and repeat]★"I've been spammed with 3 poops for 2 hours."-ColdSteele★"If someone fights learning, I don't bother with them outside of amusement factor."-Telarith★"This thread is a joke right? Please say yes."-eatwithspoons★ "This is why you don't post your opinions on the internet, most of the replies you get will be from people who missed a hug or two sometime in their youth."-Alacol★"Sexy! A post with a Binomial Distribution."-Asterelle★"It's about time PW starts to separate out the noob Sins from the rest."-salvati0n★"Shoo troll >:O"-TheDan
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    An object's worth is a very subjective thing, granted, but the sudden depreciation in value that the mounts suffered is arbitrary and disrespectful. Wether people earned their horses doing dragon quests, farming coin or working in real life (much, much harder) is not the issue. Bottomline is there was an enormous effort involved. I guess people who, just a few months back, saw the value of their rl homes diminished are nothing but a bunch of silly whiners...
  • TheGoliath - Heavens Tear
    TheGoliath - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You have always been able to buy those horses with gold. They just cut the middle man.

    You could buy gold with cash, sell gold in-game, buy horse.
    or
    You could buy gold with cash, sell gold in-game, buy orders, trade them for horse.

    Since the orders and the horses are tradeable, there is really point to say that everyone that had one only got them from doing DQs.

    If the orders or the horses had been non-tradeble, than I would be one thing, but the way there were, they were easly bought with gold anyway, just for alot of gold....
    it's not the same thing, that way ppl had to imput golds in the system, this way the only one who benefit is PWE
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    An object's worth is a very subjective thing, granted, but the sudden depreciation in value that the mounts suffered is arbitrary and disrespectful. Wether people earned their horses doing dragon quests, farming coin or working in real life (much, much harder) is not the issue. Bottomline is there was an enormous effort involved. I guess people who, just a few months back, saw the value of their rl homes diminished are nothing but a bunch of silly whiners...

    How do know that the value was set arbitrarely? And how do you know that the horses were not way overpriced anyway? Just because you have an overpriced item does not make it worth that much for the other people, right?
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Viper_girl - Heavens Tear
    Viper_girl - Heavens Tear Posts: 541 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You have always been able to buy those horses with gold. They just cut the middle man.

    You could buy gold with cash, sell gold in-game, buy horse.
    or
    You could buy gold with cash, sell gold in-game, buy orders, trade them for horse.

    The point you are missing is that the ONLY way those horses used to be able to get into the game is through Dragon QUESTING.

    Those Silver and Copper DOs are ONLY obtainable through DQs. Therefore supply and demand made it very desirable for some people to do DQs.

    Yes some people did buy the horses with Gold by buying it from someone who originally Quested for it. But I can tell you I was coming close to getting one and it wasn't through buying it with Gold. Based on what we see here I think quite a few players actually Quested for their Silvermanes.

    This cutting out of the "middle man" cuts out all the demand for DQ items and the value of doing the Dragon Quest.
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    Viper_girl - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The point you are missing is that the ONLY way those horses used to be able to get into the game is through Dragon QUESTING.

    I get that point. The thing is, there are still things that you can only get from DQs (for now at least), so there is still a demand, even if a little smaller for the orders and DQ mats than before.

    When bikinis went to CS, everyone said Dragon Temple would be a ghost town after that, however, last time I was there, a week or so ago, it was packed as usual, and there was no chance for me to even make it to a chest without getting ganked.
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • TheGoliath - Heavens Tear
    TheGoliath - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I get that point. The thing is, there are still things that you can only get from DQs (for now at least), so there is still a demand, even if a little smaller for the orders and DQ mats than before.

    When bikinis went to CS, everyone said Dragon Temple would be a ghost town after that, however, last time I was there, a week or so ago, it was packed as usual, and there was no chance for me to even make it to a chest without getting ganked.
    it is packed only cuz of free GAs pvp and pet rare scrolls


    and for having fun with something different
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Alphae - Lost City
    Alphae - Lost City Posts: 1,512 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    BratFury - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    They can't do this, then everyone who had a silvermane BEFORE the cash shop sold them would be crying they want one of the nice new horses. That they worked so hard to get the DQ horse and now they have to do the quest again in order to get the new prize. I want I want I want, no one is ever happy. The QQing is endless where this is concerned, thats just the way it is.

    What I mean is to differentiate horses purchased with DOs from horses purchased in CS. That includes horses owned before the patch, as well as ones bought with DOs after the patch.
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Your problem, not mine. Stop doing/saying things that would cause the need for a return to you equal to the **** you people put out.

    I'm not sure if you woke up on the wrong side of the bed, sweetcheeks, but I'm not sure what I did/said to equal this so-called "****" I personally put out. Do elaborate.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    How do know that the value was set arbitrarely? And how do you know that the horses were not way overpriced anyway? Just because you have an overpriced item does not make it worth that much for the other people, right?

    I know cuz i actually bothered to do a dragon quest... it was a boring waste of time. The traveling involved alone (as lost revenue in teleports/gametime wasted) justified the high prices the mounts commanded. It was arbitrary as it changed the game's conditions/rules all of a sudden, affecting the rewards of a quest that is expensive and mindnumbingly boring to do.
  • Viper_girl - Heavens Tear
    Viper_girl - Heavens Tear Posts: 541 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I get that point. The thing is, there are still things that you can only get from DQs (for now at least), so there is still a demand, even if a little smaller for the orders and DQ mats than before.

    Well I hope you are right for the sake of PWIs in-game economy . The demand for DQ is a LOT lower at the moment. Perhaps they will introduce something new of equivalent desirability to boost it back up.

    As for me my taste for long arduous Quests has been killed permanently by this. But hey there's always new blood that doesn't know the history... maybe.b:laugh
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    TheGoliath - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    it is packed only cuz of free GAs pvp and pet rare scrolls


    and for having fun with something different

    Sure, but that still means the predictions that it would be a ghost town never came true.
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I know cuz i actually bothered to do a dragon quest... it was a boring waste of time. The traveling involved alone (as lost revenue in teleports/gametime wasted) justified the high prices the mounts commanded. It was arbitrary as it changed the game's conditions/rules all of a sudden, affecting the rewards of a quest that is expensive and mindnumbingly boring to do.

    I also did DQs. There are no costs for DQ, if you grind your own drops. Flying around is also free, so no cost there either. So if you say boring as hell (that is why I do not do them), that is true. If you say expensive, that is not true, since you can get all the drops you need from grinding, therefore not having to buy any (zero cost).

    There are other items in DQ besides horses, and as far as I can tell, you can still get horses with orders, so you can still do your DQs and get your horse.
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • TheGoliath - Heavens Tear
    TheGoliath - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I also did DQs. There are no costs for DQ, if you grind your own drops. Flying around is also free, so no cost there either. So if you say boring as hell (that is why I do not do them), that is true. If you say expensive, that is not true, since you can get all the drops you need from grinding, therefore not having to buy any (zero cost).

    There are other items in DQ besides horses, and as far as I can tell, you can still get horses with orders, so you can still do your DQs and get your horse.

    where u put mah 1337 repairz cost ? >:3
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Viper_girl - Heavens Tear
    Viper_girl - Heavens Tear Posts: 541 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I also did DQs. There are no costs for DQ, if you grind your own drops. Flying around is also free, so no cost there either. So if you say boring as hell (that is why I do not do them), that is true. If you say expensive, that is not true, since you can get all the drops you need from grinding, therefore not having to buy any (zero cost).

    Ummm ... you seem to fail to understand OPPORTUNITY cost. Meaning that those DQ items you picked up while grinding could be sold instead of used for a DQ. In fact the calculated cost in DQ items alone for 50 Silver Orders is somewhere around 15-20 Mil depending on how lucky or unlucky you are.
  • clevernickname
    clevernickname Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you say expensive, that is not true, since you can get all the drops you need from grinding, therefore not having to buy any (zero cost).

    not true at all. the dq drops that you are grinding for have an inherently high npc value. each drop that you hand in to a DQ quest npc represents an expenditure equal to at least the npc value of those drops. or, if you don't think of it as an expenditure, then they undeniably make up what is called "opportunity cost". That is, the economical cost of the opportunity that is lost when taking a particular path. This is what determined the silver dragon order price in the first place, as the first DQ that gives a silver order, DQ41, has a 20% chance of giving a silver. The 40 DQ mats required for that DQ are worth 1700 each. So an opportunity cost of 68000 coin per DQ41, with a 20% chance, means an expected cost of 68000*5 = 340000 coin per order. The most cost-efficient DQ, DQ71, has a 90% silver order chance, and has a DQ item cost of 2900*80 = 232000 coin.

    DQs give experience, which should offset the costs, right? Perhaps, but consider DQ71. This DQ gives 84400 xp, which is roughly a 3 coin per 1 xp ratio. Suppose the price of Silver Orders drops to 150k. Now we have a net loss of 82000 coin, which means that the actual xp cost is about 1 coin per xp. Sounds good, right? Except that it can take hours and hours of grinding to get the drops that you need. DQs also have the nasty habit of not cycling equally through the drops for the level. Doing DQ51? Have fun with those element crystals. Doing DQ71? Ouch, 2 hours farming 20 strong venom and then you find out you need 20 more. The time and effort put into each DQ completely offsets the limited XP gain, and to expect people to do them with an economic loss as well and with no end-reward in sight, is just ridiculous.

    *edit* someone beat me to it, guess i should write less next time :(
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I also did DQs. There are no costs for DQ, if you grind your own drops. Flying around is also free, so no cost there either. So if you say boring as hell (that is why I do not do them), that is true. If you say expensive, that is not true, since you can get all the drops you need from grinding, therefore not having to buy any (zero cost).

    There are other items in DQ besides horses, and as far as I can tell, you can still get horses with orders, so you can still do your DQs and get your horse.

    Come on ice, the time you spend flying is time you're not getting xp/sp/coin, and yea, you can cut on it a lot with maxed aerogear but that's not exactly free is it? we could go back and forth with this argument all day, at least you grant me doing DQ is boring...

    Getting one of the horses used to be as hard as getting, say an herc. What would you think would happen if they decided to introduce herc as a tameable mob? You wouldn't just tell people to shrug it off now would you?
  • Foulcault - Heavens Tear
    Foulcault - Heavens Tear Posts: 164 Arc User
    edited August 2009
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    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I get that point. The thing is, there are still things that you can only get from DQs (for now at least), so there is still a demand, even if a little smaller for the orders and DQ mats than before.

    Not trying to be mean by this but what is left that is DO only? Molds I thought were also dropable and the armor I think is all that is left and the gambling which noone seems to know about? If anything this has been my biggest yell the whole time. The two glowers likely accounted for 50% of the demand or more. The other items were either easier to get dropped, bought, or were no good I thought.

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