Rising Gold Prices

Miugre - Heavens Tear

eatwithspoons wrote: »

There is no sure fire way to "fix" the economy. All you need to do is look at real world examples to see that. I think a lot of this inflation is coming from the stuff that just got put in. There's no way to get a clear view of the current economic state until you wait a while for things to calm down.

/brokenrecord

But here's what we need to know, spoons: how long are we supposed to wait? What if gold stays at 150k after this event is over, due to the stupid cube money chests? Will you tell us "oh, that's acceptable?" (because it isn't...) Will you tell us "well, you need to wait longer," over and over until we've stopped trying to ask you? Or will there be actual solutions?

I just don't want you guys, the staff, to fool yourselves into thinking this Jolly Jones event is going to be a cure-all for the gold market, and then go right back to throwing demand-increasing sale events at us left and right. Ignoring this isn't going to make it go away.

That said, please understand I'm not trying to accuse anyone in particular of ignoring the problem (least of all you and xarfox for actually listening and talking to us). It's just, we know by now that it's hard to get you guys' attention on anything without a lot of public outcry on it. I, personally, am only afraid of losing it before the problem is fixed.



EDIT: And for that matter, whose bright idea was it to come up with the new cube chests anyway!? It pumps more coins into the economy and drives up gold prices too, neither of which are exactly good remedies for an economy with an inflation problem. -_-

I haven't checked the AH in the last hour or two, but I've seen WCs offering gold for 210k on HT. 210k. -_____-

Lennson - Heavens Tear

I was wondering if anyone knows what gold prices are on other versions of PW.

I am interested in know what happened in these servers as they have been around longer and so have a higher player average level as well as some content that we have yet to get. As such the gold/coin ratio in these servers may reflect what can be expected in PWI in the future.

----

Back to gold on our servers,

The "cube chests" (which also can be achieved in rebirth) have set a reasonably solid lower bound on gold eventually being ~180k coin minimum to 1 gold.
It should be noted that as more people do tasks with these chests as rewards gold will trend towards 200k; beyond which point these chests would cease being a factor.

The current event has the relationship of one guardian angle to 100k.
As such it could be assumed that if the event were to be maintained indefinitely gold would trend towards ~345k coin maximum to 1 gold; this effectively is the current upper bound.

I do not understand how this event has or will drain coin from the game. I am assuming that when xarfox stated, "we drained a huge amount of money out of the PWI economy", money in reference to in game coin, however it is ambiguous and may refer to gold.

By the previously stated relationship between guardian angles and coin it is most advantageous for people to use guardian angles for this event until gold hit the upper-bound of ~345k coin. As such the event will drain guardian angles, and therefore gold, from the servers until this point.

This drain seems almost purely on gold, not coin, as people will not be spending coin to complete the event but rather gold which is used to buy the guardian angles. Since much of the gold will be traded for over the auctioneer while most of the coin is not eliminated there is the 2% transaction fee, which constitutes the only means of eliminating coin from the economy that this event seems to present.

Since people will choose to spend real money when it is most advantageous to them people will likely put more gold into the economy at the present, which will cause the rise in gold prices to be slower than it would otherwise be. However when the sales end gold in-flow will likely drop bellow pre-sale levels as some people will have become accustomed to getting more for their real money, where as others will have spent all they wish to spend when it was best to do so.

Conclusion gold range will be 180k-345k in future.
If ~100k per gold is the number sought; the event should offer the choice between a guardian angle or 30k coin.
Note: this would hurt other portions of the economy badly but that is another story

In any case I was tired when I typed this up so the logic likely will have some holes, so pleases point them out when you find them. I will consider making a more thorough analysis eventually.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Yeah, I think we could really use some clarification, xarfox. How exactly does this plan work? (See also: the post I made above XD)

jcrondo

Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

Even if you lower those boxes to, say, 500,000, that won't do much, as people will only open them when the Gold would go below 100,000 each.

Wasn't the goal trying to lower gold price, and if we can lower it to 100k from the almost 200k price, wouldn't that count as a success?

Kardie - Dreamweaver

Just wondering, but what would the effect of selling an unlimited amount of gold for a day, or even a hour, be on PWI's revenue?

Im sure that the selling of unlimited gold for 25% of what the lowest sell bid in the auction house is would surely help bring down the gold prices.

Brael - Dreamweaver

There's not a relationship of 100k=1GA, this is because of coin chests.
First of all, it costs 5.1 gold to list 5 gold. Then it costs 204k to buy each gold. Next, GA's each cost 29 silver if bought in the 10 pack which means 1 gold=3.4483 GA's. So what we're left with is a relationship of 59160 coin=1 GA as the maximum price without markups.

However, since this makes GA's far better to use than coins, I'm having a real problem figuring out how this will drain coins from the economy. I recognize the theory is Jolly Old Jones will eat up a lot of coin from the 100k, thus making coin more valuable relatively and reduce gold prices as a result. But as you can see, even at the ceiling for gold prices now (going on the assumption it's successful, I don't think it will be due to the effort needed to reach the end of cube preventing many hammers from being used this way) it's far better to use GA's rather than coin which means gold gets drained from the economy rather than coin does, and that will have the effect of decreasing the supply, and increasing prices.

Kardie - Dreamweaver

I still think it would be easier to have an event for an hour where gold prices would sell at 35% less than the lowest selling bid at the auction. >_>

Olba - Sanctuary

Kardie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I still think it would be easier to have an event for an hour where gold prices would sell at 35% less than the lowest selling bid at the auction. >_>

... Just for the record, on Sanctuary the two land owning factions have owned their lands for quite some time now. Don't you think that they would be the ones who would benefit the most out of that, considering the hundreds or thousands of millions that they must have by now? If so, that would make TW even more pointless, as the gold market could be largely manipulated by them, as they could buy that gold in hundreds of times the quantities that any other entity in the game, thus giving them an even larger advantage over the other factions and therefore cementing the TW map to be just those two factions.

Also, one hour would be too short, as most people wouldn't even notice it, not to mention that placing 1 hour in a 24 hour schedule is kinda hard. If they placed it according to their own location, it would harm those who play the game from outside these regions, which would cause a major uproar from the people who missed it because they were sleeping, working or in school at the time. Not to mention that it would majorly favor factions, even more so the large ones, as they got the most coins to spend, therefore being somewhat of a spitting in the faces of those who are not in large factions or factions at all.

If the event was for a short duration, it wouldn't change anything, as the sellers of gold in AH wouldn't have the time to try to compete and they wouldn't adapt their prices after the sell of "free gold". Also, what would be the point of having the Boutique in the first place if there is actually no need for people to spend real money on it? For example, 35% out of 120k comes to about 40k. Now, each of the TW lands gives at least 10,000,000. That would be roughly 250,000 gold if you ever owned one land. Now, if you own 16 lands, like the lesser number is in Sanctuary, that's at least 4,000,000 gold for the faction. The bigger one, having 20-something langs, would get somewhere in the 5,000,000 range. Now, that's about 10,000,000 gold put into the circulation. And this is just for getting those prizes onces, whereas those factions have gotten them hundreds of times. This would not only cause for CS items to lose value, but also for the value of gold to go into the gutter. All of a sudden, there would probably be at least five or ten times the amount of gold in the circulation, just by the means of two factions. Heck, if they decided not to sell it to the people again, they would gain immeasurable wealth as they could pretty much get whatever they needed to be next to invincible in TW.

Aquilonian - Dreamweaver

I have liked these events and sales lately.

I am not a cash spender, I like to grind, and I dont use items like charms, esos, GAs, ect. Items like fashion and rare mounts are cheaper for me than I can purchase them for with cash. Even if gold were 100k.

My friend is a cash spender and he loves being able to buy esos and zhen at a discount. He doesnt spend much time online so he wants to make the most of it. Now he probaly will learn about refining thanks to this sale.

People that buy gold with coin though are at a disadvantage for a while anyway. People trying to play in EASY mode, with charms, GA, esos, ect, AND NOT PAYING CASH are really hurting. Easy mode just got more expensive for them. If I were them, I would stop buying gold immediately until it dropped.

By the way to those want a cap on gold, THERE IS A CAP ON GOLD already. Its 1,000,000 per gold.

I hope PWE leaves it alone and lets the players decide what they are willing to pay for gold. I love that it's the players' choice not PWEs' choice, of what we pay for gold ingame. If we are willing to pay 350k then thats what the players want to pay. If the economy is ruined, its because the players ruined it. The players want 50k per gold, then players will make it happen. Good.

truekossy

Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

... Just for the record, on Sanctuary the two land owning factions have owned their lands for quite some time now. Don't you think that they would be the ones who would benefit the most out of that, considering the hundreds or thousands of millions that they must have by now? If so, that would make TW even more pointless, as the gold market could be largely manipulated by them, as they could buy that gold in hundreds of times the quantities that any other entity in the game, thus giving them an even larger advantage over the other factions and therefore cementing the TW map to be just those two factions.

Also, one hour would be too short, as most people wouldn't even notice it, not to mention that placing 1 hour in a 24 hour schedule is kinda hard. If they placed it according to their own location, it would harm those who play the game from outside these regions, which would cause a major uproar from the people who missed it because they were sleeping, working or in school at the time. Not to mention that it would majorly favor factions, even more so the large ones, as they got the most coins to spend, therefore being somewhat of a spitting in the faces of those who are not in large factions or factions at all.

If the event was for a short duration, it wouldn't change anything, as the sellers of gold in AH wouldn't have the time to try to compete and they wouldn't adapt their prices after the sell of "free gold". Also, what would be the point of having the Boutique in the first place if there is actually no need for people to spend real money on it? For example, 35% out of 120k comes to about 40k. Now, each of the TW lands gives at least 10,000,000. That would be roughly 250,000 gold if you ever owned one land. Now, if you own 16 lands, like the lesser number is in Sanctuary, that's at least 4,000,000 gold for the faction. The bigger one, having 20-something langs, would get somewhere in the 5,000,000 range. Now, that's about 10,000,000 gold put into the circulation. And this is just for getting those prizes onces, whereas those factions have gotten them hundreds of times. This would not only cause for CS items to lose value, but also for the value of gold to go into the gutter. All of a sudden, there would probably be at least five or ten times the amount of gold in the circulation, just by the means of two factions. Heck, if they decided not to sell it to the people again, they would gain immeasurable wealth as they could pretty much get whatever they needed to be next to invincible in TW.

Redo your calculations. Not 35% of the lowest price (say 180k), but for 35% LESS than the lowest price. That would mean instead of the 40k you mentioned, we'd be looking at prices in the 117kish region. A price we used to actually have.

Besides, no matter what they set prices to, Nef and Legendary are gonna reap the most profit from it because of their power and establishment. The only major difference will be how much of a profit they'll make and how badly those who AREN'T in those factions will get screwed in the process.

Inias - Heavens Tear

xarfox i hope u read and reply to this cuz i can't seem to find the money sink

the only thing that this event does :

alot of ppl want to get gold because the want a mount/GA's/battle pet etc ...
so to get that gold :

ppl spend money on the game and get gold (sell it or get what they want out of boutique)

or

they spend their COINS to buy GOLD from OTHER ppl

so basicly here the coins won't get pulled out of PWI but just transfered to another person that's getting rich by buying gold with RL money



so those GA's are being put into jolly old jones no and i really mean NO COINS AT ALL are being pulled out of PWI only alot of gold is being put in and out of PWI

so plz explain me how goldprices are going to go down again ?

ty

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Aquilonian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have liked these events and sales lately.

I am not a cash spender, I like to grind, and I dont use items like charms, esos, GAs, ect. Items like fashion and rare mounts are cheaper for me than I can purchase them for with cash. Even if gold were 100k.

My friend is a cash spender and he loves being able to buy esos and zhen at a discount. He doesnt spend much time online so he wants to make the most of it. Now he probaly will learn about refining thanks to this sale.

People that buy gold with coin though are at a disadvantage for a while anyway. People trying to play in EASY mode, with charms, GA, esos, ect, AND NOT PAYING CASH are really hurting. Easy mode just got more expensive for them. If I were them, I would stop buying gold immediately until it dropped.

By the way to those want a cap on gold, THERE IS A CAP ON GOLD already. Its 1,000,000 per gold.

I hope PWE leaves it alone and lets the players decide what they are willing to pay for gold. I love that it's the players' choice not PWEs' choice, of what we pay for gold ingame. If we are willing to pay 350k then thats what the players want to pay. If the economy is ruined, its because the players ruined it. The players want 50k per gold, then players will make it happen. Good.

People don't have nearly that much self-control. They get distracted by shiny objects and decide they have to have them no matter what the price. Of course, it doesn't help that PWE has been constantly putting out new "spend! now now NOW!!" gimmicks.

No one wants to pay 350k per gold. And the community will never have the self-control to boycott gold until it's 50k. Let's be realistic.

E_diamond - Dreamweaver

Man I've been reading this forum since it started and I love PWI but come on GM's do you think we are stupid. <sarcasm> OH! Nice Jolly Old Jones price of oracles and fruit will go down money will get drained from the players!!!
Bull all people are doing, the money makers anyway, are buying it up till jolly disappear then they will jack the prices back up to 150k to 200k for oracles and fruits again may take a month or to but it will happen because they know there are people that will buy them. <sheep I like to call em>

Now a lesson on economics when prices are raised they never go back to what they where yes they do go down but never back to what they where and they where high before most of your events and jolly 140k to 175k! Granted this isn't to much and I would sometime buy my gold at these prices. But now they will drop down to 150k to 185k range! Come on look at gas it controls the price of everything, gold is that for pwi! Oil tycoons control the price of gas by supply and demand we all know they have more than what they say they have on stock. Yet they use the situations of our planet to say "Oh this or that is going on, we need to conserve our supplies!" and what happens gas goes up like last time to 4$ but afterwords prices are still 5 to 10 cents higher that what they where and the sheep are now like "oh look its cheap again!" because they don't choose to remember how much it was at first. In the end gold sellers don't but all there stock on the market they do it in 50 to 100 increments. till prices drop then they scoop it up again. How do I know this I have watched it in the AH how every bit of the gold gets bought up the moment a sale happens. Not by players but gold dealing alts that just sit by the AH!

Simple, NPC that sells 8 gold a week at 175k or set a cap on the gold AH at 175k so that it can no longer be taken advantage of. People still make money but prices stay around 150k or so or cheaper.<<like this will happen greed controls everything>>

Second at the same time you introduce 1mil boxes from the high level challenges. This will keep prices high why, peeps want hammers! but now they don't buy em why only peeps that will us em are gold farmers because they can spend 5g of there stock and make 200k a gold off it which is about what they set prices at now! So in end your 1mil boxes are worth 150k to 250k to average player that can sell em. no big profit at the lvls you get em!!

Granted I don't think this will drive everyone away but it will some. Because it sucks the enjoyment out of the game.

Oh and on a final note I see you don't mention things like how your going to nerf the chip prices for the mysterious vendor. Which puts another way for people with money to make money off of chips sales cause now people have to pay chip dealers more cause there 40 Supply box chips buy them one thing now! GM's what did you say " Those things can't be traded " come on loop hole's, loop hole's, loop hole's. People pay people to buy em with there chip's for crying out loud which means....wait for it.....wait for it....another way to be monopolized by other players for stupid prices!

I love PWI but come one if your serious about making the game better and keeping prices in check..

1. cap the market
2. fix whats broken before you bring out new stuff
3. monitor people that by a crazy amount of gold in one shot of the AH and sit on it

Odith - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

The box gives you 1m coin. If the gold is less than 196k it is ALWAYS profitable to buy it driving price up and injecting another 1m coin into the system out of nowhere. If gold is less than that many more will start doing cube until the price of gold has reached 196k. Don't ever expect to see gold less than 196k in the future.

Enjoy 800K gold charms.

Ur theory worries me. It is very likely to happen if more and more people start entering the cube. And those numbers Are growing. Lets just hope that not everyone gets a nice doom-bos cozz I hate the 200k goldprices already b:surrender .

jcrondo

@ Above post
Same reason why I suggested to lower the amount of coins coming out of those cubes.

Seablue - Sanctuary

Inias - Heavens Tear wrote: »

xarfox i hope u read and reply to this cuz i can't seem to find the money sink

the only thing that this event does :

alot of ppl want to get gold because the want a mount/GA's/battle pet etc ...
so to get that gold :

ppl spend money on the game and get gold (sell it or get what they want out of boutique)

or

they spend their COINS to buy GOLD from OTHER ppl

so basicly here the coins won't get pulled out of PWI but just transfered to another person that's getting rich by buying gold with RL money



so those GA's are being put into jolly old jones no and i really mean NO COINS AT ALL are being pulled out of PWI only alot of gold is being put in and out of PWI

so plz explain me how goldprices are going to go down again ?

ty

Coins do get pulled out of the economy. When you buy gold with in game coin they tax you for it. So the money the seller get is less than the buyer gives which leads to a decease in the total money supply.

I don't know how gold prices are suppose to be going down, but my theory is that due to a decrease in the total money supply there will be less and less people able to pay for the high price gold. When this happens the gold sellers will have to decrease the gold price so that he can continue to make profit.

Then again I'm not a pro, so I don't really understand how this really works. What I'm fairly certain of is that buying gold with coins and jolly old jones is a money sink. The gold trading serves as a money sink by taxing people for the gold they use to buy GA. If the gold price rises so that a GA is more than 100k, there's always the 100k coin option.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

We've already established that the tax isn't going to be nearly enough, though. 2%? Maybe that'll make gold prices themselves fall 2%. It's not the fix we need.

ahhao

As someone has stated, the 1mil coin cube reward is going to drive gold to ~200k. Its going to happen, whether we like it or not.
Having back to back sales were just a prelude to bringing gold prices up a little...last i checked its already 190k+ on HT now. lol

RisenPhoenix - Sanctuary

Im sure that if the GMs and Devs see that their plan was faulty and things did not change over the course of 2-3 weeks, they will make adjustments as needed, or come up with another plan.

Just gotta try to be patient.

DarkSniper - Lost City

Simple, NPC that sells 8 gold a week at 175k or set a cap on the gold AH at 175k so that it can no longer be taken advantage of. People still make money but prices stay around 150k or so or cheaper.<<like this will happen greed controls everything>>

As great of an idea as this sounds, it will never happen.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

RisenPhoenix - Sanctuary wrote: »

Im sure that if the GMs and Devs see that their plan was faulty and things did not change over the course of 2-3 weeks, they will make adjustments as needed, or come up with another plan.

Just gotta try to be patient.

I'd like to believe that, but people will generally tend to ignore things and hope they go away. So we need to keep the pressure on until we get some relief. Starting after Jones goes away, that is.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

boo4u wrote: »

the gold went through the roof BEFORE j jones..come on.

On HT at least it didn't go anywhere near this high before. During the pet pack and new mount sale it went from about 125k to 150k. After the sale ended (early) it quickly dropped back down to 120k-125k. Within a half hour of the Jolly Jones announcement being posted, it was at 130k. It has since gone up to 190k. Heck, even when the bugged Duke Rose outfits were in, I don't think I saw it go over 184k on HT.

When I buy gold, I've started leaving a couple of the lowest-priced gold. e.g. If I see:

47 gold @ 190k
10 gold @ 188k
5 gold @ 187k
15 gold @ 186k

And I need to buy 20 gold, I'll buy 13@186k, 3@187k, and 4@188k. That leaves the gold sale board looking like this:

47 gold @ 190k
6 gold @ 188k
2 gold @ 187k
2 gold @ 186k

Any new gold seller is thus compelled to list theirs at 186k or 185k. If I'd just bought the bottom 20 gold, the lowest priced gold would be 188k, and a new seller would just list theirs at 188k or 187k. Dunno if it'll help, but I figure it's worth trying.

darkjagans

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Heck, even when the bugged Duke Rose outfits were in, I don't think I saw it go over 184k on HT.

actually... i was on about an hour or so before the servers went for an emergency shutdown and gold prices jumped to 500k and it seems that some people even saw it as high as 700k

Zirconium - Heavens Tear

Has anyone noticed that when the highest buy price of gold drops to the mid 170,000's someone always puts a 8,000-10,000 higher bid in to get the highest buy cost of gold back up to over 180,000.

If I was paranoid I would begin to suspect price fixing. b:angry

darkjagans

Zirconium - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If I was paranoid I would begin to suspect price fixing. b:angry

Welcome to The Conspiracy!

Brael - Dreamweaver

One thing that would keep it down, not that people do it, is to not bid a lot at once. On DW it's not uncommon to see someone put in 50-150 gold buys at a certain price. Which then causes everyone to move their buys above that, and simply increases the price of gold. I'm pretty sure that if someone with atleast 100 million wanted to, and had a bid of gold available they could do some rather serious market manipulation and walk away with a huge profit simply by constantly increasing the price of gold.

Blancheneige - Heavens Tear

Lennson - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I was wondering if anyone knows what gold prices are on other versions of PW.

That's pretty much irrelevant.

For exemple, I played another version before PWI. When I left, gold in AH was selling between 450k and 500k. But..... On that version, you could get 100 gold for around $30...

Blazehawk - Harshlands

Last update on PWI Harshlands=)
245k for 1 gold in ah xD

jcrondo

The solution should not reside in setting a cap on how much gold can go up by. Why cut the the weed when you can root it out and go fix the root problem? Why not just lower the cube reward so the gold price would fall because people don't profit from those cubes anymore.

edit: fml my bad for not adding in the not....**** keyboard