Why are Venos without Hercs considered useless?

tweakz

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Could you solo heal cosmo in 2-2?

If I couldn't before, I should be able to now. I am pure mag, and now have equips to swap specifically for the purpose: mag +10 tome, mag +7 cape, mag+6 hat, mag+4/ch -6 necklace, mag+5 robe (rank). My pants are already mag +6, boots mag+7, weapon mag+11. -Will be attempting a WB again soon with Marksman. ;-)

What might have done it for me before was -36% channeling?

I pulled out my Golem because the Archer was getting aggro on all the random mobs... And then got informed, "Either you use your herc, or I'll take it." Not that there's any way to do that...

Gotta love it when other people tell you how to play your class! I found out by surprise that my Scorpion could actually tank mobs in Eden (spam healing). Surprisingly some barbs have held aggro even with Bash, Flesh Ream, and Pierce going off on top of Claw.

Brael - Dreamweaver

The channeling would be a factor, I only have 24%. If you were also using the 83 heal for it, that would be a 8.33% difference in healing ability, if our magic attacks are equal, which they probably aren't, so in reality looking at a 7.5%-9% or so range for a difference depending on if you had more at the time than I have now, I've only got +25 magic in gear.

akibera

tweakz wrote: »

With the tone of your post, I don't think you really do feel perfectly fine alone. Why not stop being obstinate and change what you're doing wrong or just live with your decision to be underpowered in peace?

lol, i am a solo player and i'm fine with it, even if you don't believe me. i had too many bad experiences with people and betrayer friends in other MMOs, so it is much better and relaxing to play alone. and just because i have a golem, that doesn't mean i am underpowered, but oookay... i really don't want to argue about this, you should respect my opinion and i will respect yours.

Brael - Dreamweaver

It means you're under geared. But, it's not a big deal seeing as how 90% of people in MMO's are under geared while they level up.

jokerxdude

As long as they know how to lure, then I don't care. No venomancer is useless unless they can't lure properly.

Ghost_eyes - Lost City

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

Would you do the same for the other classes? "Oh, look, a Wizard without full TT, YUCK! Let's leave him alone", or "Ew... a Non Tiger-Form barb, let's ignore the crappy tanker.", or "A cleric without Charm, Do not WANT."

Unfortunatly these are the realities of a game, there are set criteria which must be met to get the best results. A BM can use a bow, but will anyone ask help from one who does?

And yeh the exmples u gave with other classes happen all the time. Just depends on the situation.

People's 'feelings' are not a priority to most ppl needing a job done

Nefiza - Sanctuary

a veno without a herc is said to be baggage, if that were true, how come, over the other venos with hercs, my lvl 61 veno with a c-mag is invited first? To frost none the less.

because i know what im doing, having aherc, doesnt mean you know how to use it.

Ive seen lvl 80+ venos with hercs ask what Pulling is and it disturbs me.

be yourself, play how you want, and when the time comes, someone will realize, too late, what they lost.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Nefiza - Sanctuary wrote: »

because i know what im doing, having a herc, doesn't mean you know how to use it.

Ive seen lvl 80+ venos with hercs ask what Pulling is and it disturbs me.

Totally true. When I got my herc it was so much different from my golem I had to learn how to use it as if I was new to playing a veno. I had fun exploring its limits and running TT 1-3 squad mode solo at my level back then made me learn how to use my herc real fast.b:laugh

80+ venos not knowing what pulling is? This is why its not always a good idea to let high levels blow through your fbs. I got to grow up with the server so I did all mine with parties of very similar level to me. It's harder, but more fun and you learn about your class very well.

Foxx - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

If I couldn't before, I should be able to now. I am pure mag, and now have equips to swap specifically for the purpose: mag +10 tome, mag +7 cape, mag+6 hat, mag+4/ch -6 necklace, mag+5 robe (rank). My pants are already mag +6, boots mag+7, weapon mag+11. -Will be attempting a WB again soon with Marksman. ;-)

With a lucky hit he can 1 shot my herc at lvl 98, so faster/better healing may help but it will still be iffy.
I just resign myself to doing him with 2 venos, and take turns purging. Without his self buff he isnt any problem of course.

because i know what im doing, having aherc, doesnt mean you know how to use it.

Unfortunately some of the people in this thread would have you believe that herc owners are generally worse players. (presumably because they get "carried" by their herc, or some such nonsense)

Isala - Sanctuary

Foxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Unfortunately some of the people in this thread would have you believe that herc owners are generally worse players. (presumably because they get "carried" by their herc, or some such nonsense)

Not all Venos with Herc are useless. But you kinda have to admit, even an idiot can learn the concept of "Heal Pet, Win Game". Which is what that blob allows... I've lost count of stupid Venos I've run into with that thing...

HolyInferno - Sanctuary

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not all Venos with Herc are useless. But you kinda have to admit, even an idiot can learn the concept of "Heal Pet, Win Game". Which is what that blob allows... I've lost count of stupid Venos I've run into with that thing...

you must be one of those "pro venos" i hear so much about.

Isala - Sanctuary

HolyInferno - Sanctuary wrote: »

you must be one of those "pro venos" i hear so much about.

Not pro. Just annoyed. It's those bad players that give other Venos a bad reputation. When you have a TT, FB, or Gamma squad inform you that they normally don't take Venos because most Venos they have partied with are bad players, you know there's a problem.

Brael - Dreamweaver

That's a problem with a class that attracts solo players. As a result, a large portion of venos don't know what to do in squads. It's not the fault of hercs but they get the blame because they cost money.

Isala - Sanctuary

Honestly? It's more of a problem with the system. You get squads that only want Hercs, and you have Venos who spend real money to get them, not knowing how to actually play the class, only how to heal a blob. You put those two together, and something goes horribly wrong. The squad doesn't see "Bad Veno. I must not squad with them again." The squad sees "Even the easiest class with the easiest pet sucks, therefore, every Veno must suck." And that causes backlash towards ALL venos, whether they have a Herc, or not.

Note: I am not saying that those who buy a Herc suck, or that those who own a Herc suck. But when you can buy, and not earn something in game, there is a high chance that someone with a small brain, and a large wallet will get their hands on it, and not be any good with it at all.

calavera

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

But when you can buy, and not earn something in game, there is a high chance that someone with a small brain, and a large wallet will get their hands on it, and not be any good with it at all.

I agree.
10char

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear

i dont hate venos and good non herc venos get my respect the herc venos rarely get my respect for being less skilled failing at what they want to do then nearly causing a squad wipe(this doesnt have to be like this)
actually i even prefer to squad a non herc veno they are on the average more skilled know how to be ussefull in squads and make things go smoothly and safe

XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary

the majority of herc venos out there used a magmite as their main pet up until 60 - 70 - 80 - 90.. so to say herc venos on average are less skilled than non herc venos doesn't make much sense to me.

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear

well on to be honest i had alot of nearly squad wipes with herc venos that they caused while i squad more up with non herc venos and this rarely happens

XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary

As someone who uses both pets i dont see how not having a herc can make you a better player. The role I play pretty much stays the same in most instances i have been in. Since getting a herc, it has only enhanced my role because i'm able to take on more responsibilities in the squad.
When i see non herc venos in my squad.. they usually dont do much if anything. They bramble, lending hand and pull. Same thing i do with or without a herc. So maybe its that the non herc venos dont have alot of responsibility in the squad and seem like they pretty much dont make mistakes?

to me a herc is just another pet with different skills and that is used in a different way.. like all pets are and it in no way makes me a better or worse player.

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear

XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary wrote: »

As someone who uses both pets i dont see how not having a herc can make you a better player. The role I play pretty much stays the same in most instances i have been in. Since getting a herc, it has only enhanced my role because i'm able to take on more responsibilities in the squad.
When i see non herc venos in my squad.. they usually dont do much if anything. They bramble, lending hand and pull. Same thing i do with or without a herc. So maybe its that the non herc venos dont have alot of responsibility in the squad and seem like they pretty much dont make mistakes?

to me a herc is just another pet with different skills and that is used in a different way.. like all pets are and it in no way makes me a better or worse player.

you do realize that any class doesnt do much right?
barbs we grab mobs venos pull use agro skils and are a meat shield
clerics heal and buff and optional DDing
wiz,archer,bm DDing
venos what you said and aditional damage amplifying and DDing

for the rest the extra responsibilty is nothing your herc doesnt keep agro well except at ? bosses making that extra responsibility nothing as non herc venos can grab mobs when i cant hold multiples and so can bms
you just got it easier in doing squad purposes and herc is the worst joke ever

Brael - Dreamweaver

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i dont hate venos and good non herc venos get my respect the herc venos rarely get my respect for being less skilled failing at what they want to do then nearly causing a squad wipe(this doesnt have to be like this)
actually i even prefer to squad a non herc veno they are on the average more skilled know how to be ussefull in squads and make things go smoothly and safe

After reading the posts you made after this one, I think I get your viewpoint, and it's pretty ironic given this quote. Essentially, you're blaming the veno's with hercs for squad mistakes when often times it's the fact that other classes don't understand hercs are not aggro machines, and that's what leads to problems.

If DD's are tanking over a herc, the extent to which it's the veno's fault is when they tell the party to give the herc time to get aggro. Pulling aggro however is the fault of the DD. People simply blindly assume higher tanking stats includes higher aggro but with a herc... that isn't the case. Hercs are very effective in squads, but mobs they're tanking should always be killed last. Rather than hating venos with hercs, maybe you should instead be looking at how to teach squads to properly behave around them? They're the best tool venos have, but they need to be used properly... otherwise they're worthless.

Oh, and a nix is the worst joke ever... the thing is built to be an exp machine, yet at the same time all effective forms of exp prevent it from being used.

XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear wrote: »

you do realize that any class doesnt do much right?
barbs we grab mobs venos pull use agro skils and are a meat shield
clerics heal and buff and optional DDing
wiz,archer,bm DDing
venos what you said and aditional damage amplifying and DDing

for the rest the extra responsibilty is nothing your herc doesnt keep agro well except at ? bosses making that extra responsibility nothing as non herc venos can grab mobs when i cant hold multiples and so can bms
you just got it easier in doing squad purposes and herc is the worst joke ever

of course every class doesnt do much, but the amount i can do was increased vs when i used my magmite.

a non herc veno will slow down your situation if its responsibility is to handle adds during a boss. With tough on a magmite, killing above level elite mobs is mostly just spamming heal on it. Which is dam slow.
Not to mention a good group has a focused attack and doesnt make the cleric heal more than just the tank.. so there again is why herc is better for that situation. Exploding elite mobs tend to kill off magmites too.
You say "easier" but thats hate.. it has enhanced the situation, allowing me take on more than your average. Making me the most efficient way to handle mobs while the barb is busy.
I dont know how good magmites do against the TT bosses that spawn mini -bosses, because i never took the time to gamble with my squads lives that way. I would only assume that the herc is much better in those situations as well.

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

After reading the posts you made after this one, I think I get your viewpoint, and it's pretty ironic given this quote. Essentially, you're blaming the veno's with hercs for squad mistakes when often times it's the fact that other classes don't understand hercs are not aggro machines, and that's what leads to problems.

If DD's are tanking over a herc, the extent to which it's the veno's fault is when they tell the party to give the herc time to get aggro. Pulling aggro however is the fault of the DD. People simply blindly assume higher tanking stats includes higher aggro but with a herc... that isn't the case. Hercs are very effective in squads, but mobs they're tanking should always be killed last. Rather than hating venos with hercs, maybe you should instead be looking at how to teach squads to properly behave around them? They're the best tool venos have, but they need to be used properly... otherwise they're worthless.

Oh, and a nix is the worst joke ever... the thing is built to be an exp machine, yet at the same time all effective forms of exp prevent it from being used.

ok this made me think yes maybe i should stop hating herc venos but when they insist to tank a boss even when we have the clerics so i can tank and then having the herc die well that doesnt make me happy as i need to get to tiger ream asap and bring order back so we dont all die(reason why i prefer to stay tiger during a boss now) sure its not only the herc venos fault the squad should never have allowed the herc to tank with this risk adding that DDs have to hold back more then with me tanking

i think my hatred of herc venos is stupid now but they somethimes just have this altitude and that i have a complex that makes me want to tank is probally the mean reason i dont like them

Brael - Dreamweaver

XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary wrote: »

I dont know how good magmites do against the TT bosses that spawn mini -bosses, because i never took the time to gamble with my squads lives that way. I would only assume that the herc is much better in those situations as well.

I wouldn't trust my magmite on Astralwalker in 2-2. With a herc however, I can solo the event with very little trouble. Oddly enough, I do it faster than most squads I've seen do the event with 6 people. Then again, the normal strat people use on him is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in this game. Done properly he's the easiest mob in there needing a mere 2.94 million base damage to kill.

Anyways, the magmite in that situation would hold aggro on the mob, the same as any pet would. The defense would be quite a bit lower though. The reason hercs are so full of win on ? bosses is because aggro is a binary system. Either aggro is sufficient or it isn't. If you hold aggro it doesn't matter if you're only holding it by 1 point or by 1 million points, either way... the mob is on that aggro holder (Barbs, especially those of you with the "I NEED YOU TO GIVE ME A SPARK EVERY MINUTE" complex, reread this last sentence). Even though a herc is lower aggro than most other pets, it generates more than enough on a ? boss, which removes the advantage other pets like magmite's have leaving the only difference in defensive abilities.

A magmite is really the more effective pet for normal clears, with the herc being supreme on bosses, but not all venos are going to use a magmite for a variety of reasons. I don't even use one over my herc when I know the magmite would be better with random squads (my usual squad knows how to work around herc weaknesses... using a magmite instead would only cost dps as a result).

ok this made me think yes maybe i should stop hating herc venos but when they insist to tank a boss even when we have the clerics so i can tank and then having the herc die well that doesnt make me happy as i need to get to tiger ream asap and bring order back so we dont all die(reason why i prefer to stay tiger during a boss now) sure its not only the herc venos fault the squad should never have allowed the herc to tank with this risk adding that DDs have to hold back more then with me tanking

If it's a boss a herc is going to be iffy tanking, the barb should be tanking it. Hercs tanking bosses over a barb in a squad is for two reasons. The first is that a cleric nuking plus a barb dd'ing is more damage than the veno nuking is. Which leads to a faster kill. The second is that it's cheaper for the squad. A faster kill means fewer weapon repairs, a herc tanking doesn't increase the cost of armor repairs, or cause charm ticks.

I'm a big fan of hercs tanking bosses, but it depends on the boss. I don't want to tank soul banisher with it, or wurlord, or cosmo (2-2, 2-3), or lord of percussion, or a couple of others like boss #8 in frost or polearm. And some like Astralwalker work best with a herc on the main guy and a barbarian on the other mobs (the way I do it atleast, I don't do the cower on a pillar and make a poor cleric BB for 10-15 min method most on my server seem to use) because a barbarian (or any human) paths to a target better than a pet does, and can aggro from further away... not to mention the ability to aggro multiple things at once if necessary. Anyways, it all goes back to what I said above. They're great pets/tools/weapons but they need to be used right, which includes others knowing their weakness and adjusting to it. Otherwise they're worthless.

Bearleeable - Lost City

One thing i don't understand is a statement a fellow veno made to me today, Shew as saying a lvl 7x veno can solo fb79 if she has a herc. But that because of the hercs def buff a magmite could not. Now I admit the herc buff is very nice, and finding the scroll is not cost effective as for the price of the 2 buff scrolls you could buy a herc... but on the other hand i've spent a great deal of time/money making my mag all he can be....
Bash lvl 4 ( agro holding )
Roar Lvl 4 ( steal agro back from DD or if tank is in trouble and needs a chance

to heal,turtle whatever )

Tough lvl 4 ( short but great def buff )
Peirce lvl 4 ( weaken boss to aid in dps )
oh, and i generally add tangle mire in the mix to further enhance dps.

I'm not 80 yet so I can't get lvl 5 skills even though i already have the tomes to do so. @ lvl 69 ( almost 70 ) i can't quite tank wyvern yet, I assume cause i dont' have lvl 8 heal its embarassing but my golem can't solo kimsa but my wife 1 lvl higher with her herc does so easily.
I made the golem this way (made it for her first ) because buying a herc is a MAJOR challenge for us, let alone buying 2. So i figured if i get her cyrstaline as close to herc as i can, then when she is able to get her herc, i'll have a above average golem who can control agro and keep the squad alive... Which i do on a regular basis.

Sometimes on a boss ( like for bh ) if we get bored we'll bounce the agro constantly back and forth between the barb and me. It's extremely funny to watch the boss spinning in circles and not aoe'n or most of its high dmg cause its constantly changing focus.

So, my question is, why is it that her herc can do THAT much more... plz don't tell me its cause golems FAIL And was I wrong to put this much effort into my mag. If it matters i OFTEN squad with DD heavy groups like archers and wiz's. I thoroughly enjoy the role of backup tank and party saver.

Yaxana - Sanctuary

I have a crystaline magmite and about 9350 SoF but with these high prices on Gold I don't have enough to buy the rest at the moment. In my case I don't care what other people think of venos without hercs, since I don't do many FBs with strangers, but I would like to get one so that I can help out the people in my guild when there's not cleric/barb to help out. I also hate from the bottom of my heart how the damn thing looks like. Bottom line, a veno can survive without a herc, I have no problems in doing my quests, but it would be nice to have one since it makes things much easier.

Rezsonate - Heavens Tear

IMO, hercs are phoenixes....are just imba
battle pets bought via boutique and the freakin PWI anny pack really gives pwi the whole "free-to-play = pay-to-win" thing. -.-

Alexeno - Sanctuary

why cant this thread just die?

XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary

dam... agreed.


this thread was almost dead.

tweakz

Rezsonate - Heavens Tear wrote: »

IMO, hercs are phoenixes....are just imba
battle pets bought via boutique and the freakin PWI anny pack really gives pwi the whole "free-to-play = pay-to-win" thing. -.-

I'm doing find without paying. You can do your dailies and buy your way through or you can do OMA, and quests and earn your way in game. Either way works great.