Why are Venos without Hercs considered useless?

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  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Cexylady - Lost City wrote: »
    i quit my veno, cuz too many people think that herc is better than magmite, i have to say, i've seen too many veno's with herc's fail, and where i succeeded, learn to use the pet?? instead of more of relying on the pet...

    Hercs own at boss tanking, magmites can be better otherwise. I just did a 2-2 that a magmite tanked. Not because the magmite makes the better tank, but because it holds aggro far better. Two aggro skills beats a hercs melee+1 aggro skill.
  • MystiMonk - Sanctuary
    MystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    suki3000 wrote: »
    Just out of interest how much in real money do people pay for a Herc?

    They pay about for all 9999 SoF I believe it is $400.00.This is if Sof in the Battle Pet Pack is more than FF.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    The average per pack is 26.8 (it's random 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 per), and you need 9999, that's 374 packs or 187 gold to get one... on average. You can end up higher/lower.
  • JollyJaguar - Sanctuary
    JollyJaguar - Sanctuary Posts: 431 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Even tho I have a herc I do agree with the fact that we are NOT useless without one. Debuff, lure, DD, Heal an other veno's herc etc etc etc
    And on top of that we are smexy.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Maciaveli - Lost City
    Maciaveli - Lost City Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    JollyJaguar - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Even tho I have a herc I do agree with the fact that we are NOT useless without one. Debuff, lure, DD, Heal an other veno's herc etc etc etc
    And on top of that we are smexy.

    I second that! b:chuckle
    *************************************
    Main Character: Nicolanis; 8x Venomancer - The Best No-Nix Robe User On Lost City(Not Much Competition There Though) b:victory

    Faction: Harvester b:shocked

    Current Reputation:- 50xx/200,000 Wearing Rank 4 Chest Armorb:dirty
    *************************************
  • Xeian - Dreamweaver
    Xeian - Dreamweaver Posts: 720 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    I haven't read all 50+ pages of this thread but I can safely say my shadou can take a herc anyday, and I can pull like no one's business. I'm capable of soloing fb19, and I'm close to doing the same for fb29
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Xeian - Dreamweaver
    Xeian - Dreamweaver Posts: 720 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    suki3000 wrote: »
    Just out of interest how much in real money do people pay for a Herc?

    close to $30 if not more. by my math anyway
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Bearleeable - Lost City
    Bearleeable - Lost City Posts: 445 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Xeian - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    close to $30 if not more. by my math anyway

    LOL I WISH it was only $30.. like another said average is $150+
    I got my wife hers when the packs were on sale and it cost us $92. and that was at 50% off if i recall right.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Yup - it's somewhere between $150 and $200 if you buy it with real cash, in the absence of sales.

    Take advantage of the fairly-regular pet-pack sales, is my advice. Save up until one occurs.
  • Mistimancer - Heavens Tear
    Mistimancer - Heavens Tear Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    I posted before.... but I will redo to encourage the non-hercs venom :)

    I been refused many time or kicked out of squads due to not having a herc.. yes it hurts.. yes it pisses me off BUT.... here's what I like to do... flame me if ya want ROFL

    I don't have a herc or nix.. and unless PWI decide to put one free in my mail post.. I will never bought one... either in game or with real money... 'cause.. when i created that character.. was to explore and have fun... I like trying dangerous things.. if I die.. so what.. it's a game...

    So I am level 75, 1 year I play .. when I can.. I am a stay at home mom with a very demanding 5 year old daughter.. I never got a golem either.... yup.. that's true :)
    I don't want to solo FB or TT... I don't wanna be a tank... I am a venomancer... Barbs are tank... if I need a TT and no tank are available.. I'll just wait... and am not more sad for it :) I explore I learn.. I discover...I live in danger..

    Until level 74 I was playing around with pets I had tamed.. from 63 to 73 my main pet was Florafang Guard... At level 74 a friend of mine got me a level 58 shadou cub...

    I am now level 75, my shadou cub is 67... and my 2 playgrounds are Immolation Camp and Great Wall areas... I am having fun with level 83 to 87 mobs (craggs and general horsies are my favourite) with my baby cub who just turned 67:) I even tried some level 91 (Glacier seed) mobs... I succeeded.. but was too long of a fight :)
    So I think I do pretty well.. sure.. sometimes it's close call.. sure sometimes I die... but I think I use all the possible skills and technics I can and by doing that.. I feel proud of what I can achieve.. even if it gives me lots of bruise.. lots of repair bills.. and some dying moments :)

    Sure.. I cannot solo TT or whatever.. but.. I never rolled my char to do that... I rolled it to be able to solo most of the time due to my personal life.

    And I am quite lucky to be part of a faction that will take me anywhere.. I pulled TT 2-1 with my level 66 cub at the time.. sure.. sometimes I had to try many times as.. well.. cub is too low ROFL.. but they let me do and encouraged me and was very happy when I was succeeding.. then I found some tricks and cub was dying less and less.. even if he is too low :)

    Sure.. I am not rich.. sure.. I don't level 10 levels a week... sure I cannot solo TT or BOSS.... SO WHAT.. that's not the way I like to play a game :)

    THAT IS ALL :) *HUGSHUGSHUGS*
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Celric - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    When you are in TW. When facing a veno. Kill the nix or herc and just watch them stand around or run away. Its quite hilarious. Pathetic nowadays. Too dependent. Most are a bunch of noobs. (MOST. Not all. Still some very good venos out there.) Last weekend all I did was kill pets and laugh my **** off.
    Useless...
    What the cash shop has taught venos is how to suck ****. How to become entirely dependent on these *Overpowered Cash Shop pets* (pwi's 2nd main source of income) Before this CS existed Venos still fought w/ skills. Now it has become horribly pathetic.

    I agree with this statement 100%

    I kill a phoenix in a TW, the veno either runs like a coward, or stands in front of me and starts ressing their pet. Does no one learn how to play their class anymore?

    I played half of my last TW petless.b:laugh I love my fox debuffs. I don't have to actaully damage you to make you die.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Foxx - Heavens Tear
    Foxx - Heavens Tear Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Xeian - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I haven't read all 50+ pages of this thread but I can safely say my shadou can take a herc anyday

    In a straight out fight with no healing, and equal level pets, your shadou cub wouldnt stand a chance. It would be lucky if it even got the herc to 2/3 health before it died.
    Herc has a +150% armor buf in case you aren't aware, as well as a ton more dps. Oh... and reflect damage on top of that.

    Please stop posting garbage on the forums.
  • Viper_girl - Heavens Tear
    Viper_girl - Heavens Tear Posts: 541 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Foxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    In a straight out fight with no healing, and equal level pets, your shadou cub wouldnt stand a chance. It would be lucky if it even got the herc to 2/3 health before it died.
    Herc has a +150% armor buf in case you aren't aware, as well as a ton more dps. Oh... and reflect damage on top of that.

    Please stop posting garbage on the forums.

    What you even gave it as little as 2/3rds b:laugh.

    Much as I like my Shaodou Cub, it is horribly weak compared to my Herc. I only keep it around to lure once in a while.

    Like it or not the game is designed to give Legendary Pets a huge advantage. Otherwise people wouldn't spend $200 per pet. Even if you paid with coin SOMEONE originally bought the battle pet packs with Zen.
  • akibera
    akibera Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    herc = expensive. i would never waste that much money on a game. and my in-game money is needed to improve my weapon and armor. if people don't like my golem, then don't squad with me. i'm perfectly fine alone! *shrugs* i don't $h!t money, i can't spend it on pixels mindlessly like some showoff freaks in this game.
    Active player since January 2010.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Mistimancer - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sure.. I am not rich.. sure.. I don't level 10 levels a week... sure I cannot solo TT or BOSS.... SO WHAT.. that's not the way I like to play a game :)

    People don't want to bring a hercless veno on some missions. SO WHAT.. that's not the way they like to play the game :)
    Celric - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What the cash shop has taught venos is how to suck ****. How to become entirely dependent on these *Overpowered Cash Shop pets* (pwi's 2nd main source of income) Before this CS existed Venos still fought w/ skills. Now it has become horribly pathetic.

    Oh, are you NOT using charms, dragon orbs, or socket stones? -Good for you! Lack of pvp experience is the cause of venos sucking in pvp imo. If a veno found it difficult to dmg another player while they had a pet, maybe it's wise to make a safe exit when without. In TW, getting someone to chase you and waste their time can be more valuable than just killing them. Oh, and my dad could beat up your dad.
    akibera wrote: »
    herc = expensive. i would never waste that much money on a game. and my in-game money is needed to improve my weapon and armor. if people don't like my golem, then don't squad with me. i'm perfectly fine alone! *shrugs* i don't $h!t money, i can't spend it on pixels mindlessly like some showoff freaks in this game.

    Before the raise in gold prices, I could afforded a Herc in less than a week's earnings with in game coin. Now it would take ~4 weeks. With the tone of your post, I don't think you really do feel perfectly fine alone. Why not stop being obstinate and change what you're doing wrong or just live with your decision to be underpowered in peace? Any idiot capable of playing this game to level 80 is still capable of obtaining a Herc / Veno without having to sacrifice good equips.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Annabel_Lee - Heavens Tear
    Annabel_Lee - Heavens Tear Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    b:chuckle No herc here and have dealt with being less than an uber veno just fine. Keeping barbs employed since... whenever I started my veno b:victory Go tanks!
  • Barbariankev - Heavens Tear
    Barbariankev - Heavens Tear Posts: 831 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    i dont like venos with hercs tanking they make me feel so usseless
    i also saw alot of them fail because they would tank so cleric could DD
    it caused me to do alot of leeroy jenkins actions to prevent squad wipes (not all venos with hercs fail)
    its impossible to always do the right thing we all make mistakes i am not different from that
    just try to be a good person

    english isn't my native language so there might be a few spelling/grammatical errors in my posts
  • Mistimancer - Heavens Tear
    Mistimancer - Heavens Tear Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    I don't do PVP 'cause I never liked to duel... in any game I played and I play online MMRPG since 1999.

    And I don't use charms :) Well not true.. in 1 year I used 2 charms.. they were gifts from friends because I had helped them :)

    My only cash item I really use.. is clothes.. and I buy them in game as per I cannot buy Zen ( I have great friend that buy them for me and I repay them... in the old fashion way .. 100k per Gold, in multiple payments if needed :) Without these nice peeps I would wear my normal gear as per.. no way I'll spend 2 mil to get a dress.. ROFL..

    Even my flyer was a gift ROFL.. was given to me almost a year ago.. it's a Spotted Manta.. it's only 1.50 speed :) I never got a mount... my 1st mount was the anniversary mount at level 75 WOOT hahaha

    I play this game 'cause it's free.. I used ot play games you needed to pay for it.. couldn't afford it no more.. my daughter is the most important thing and if I have 10$ extra.. it'll go to her :)

    Well that is all :)

    And yes.. If there way of playing is to only want Hercules Venom to join them, it's the way they play.. I agree... I still can find it unfair to very skilled and helpful Venoms that will be shut down just 'cause of no Herc :)
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Barbariankev - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i dont like venos with hercs tanking they make me feel so usseless
    i also saw alot of them fail because they would tank so cleric could DD
    it caused me to do alot of leeroy jenkins actions to prevent squad wipes (not all venos with hercs fail)

    If we end up squading together, just let your squad know you prefer to tank (I can't keep track of everyone's preferences). Many times, barbs want to save on repair costs. I'm perfectly happy busting out my Scorpion or Marksman with Claw to kick the DD'ing up a notch, but not everyone appreciates that.
    Mistimancer - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    And yes.. If there way of playing is to only want Hercules Venom to join them, it's the way they play.. I agree... I still can find it unfair to very skilled and helpful Venoms that will be shut down just 'cause of no Herc :)

    Would it be unfair to only want HA Barbs, or Clerics with BB/ Lv.10 res? -No.

    Recently I was in a 2-3 run with another veno. I have Lv.1 purge, and a Herc while they had some kind of wolf and an obviously higher purge level (faster cool down is only benefit so I can purge 1/4 as often as L.10/sage). I purged as often as I could on the relevant bosss which ended up being synchronous with their purge once. All I can think was that this veno was intimidated by my pets when they griped "why am I the only one purging". I kept my mouth shut about all the deficiencies I saw in their "play style" and didn't type a word in response to their dishonest accusation. Hercless venos don't just tend to suck, they also tend to be obstinate, bitter, and boastful. There are other skills I'm more concerned about than purge since I have little interest in PvP atm and there's little use for it in PvE from what I can see so far. I was also brought on as a DD, and would respect a decision to pass me up based on my purge level. It turns out that this boss self buffs every 15 seconds, while purge's cool down is 30 seconds + a channel /cast time of 2.7s at Lv10. I'm considering upgrading it, but not for this single boss I may never tackle in squad again. In solo, the buff would provide more reflect damage, and wouldn't be avoidable even with L10/sage purge. So why is Herc affordable but not Purge for me is what some may be wondering.. I put Claw on 2 of my pets to kill bosses faster (which also saves barb repair costs). I put Protect and Strong on my Marksman so I could DD more while having a good DD pet (which also saves barbs repair costs). I invested in Myriad Rainbow, Sage Melee Mastery, and many other skills (which also save barbs repair costs) by killing faster. Any of these things a veno could be discriminated against for.

    A good veno will be called on: same with any class. I prefer soloing most of the time. -Despite that, and others often trying to tell me how to play my class: I'm still called on plenty. If you have to tell people you have skills, or point out what others are or aren't doing: maybe you don't have skills or much value. Maybe getting a Herc should be a priority. Maybe it's why I'm called on plenty. Maybe I suck. At least I'm not one of those bitter obstinate venos. I bought my pets/ skills with in game coin and see no overwhelming obstacles for people to do the same.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • The_owner - Lost City
    The_owner - Lost City Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Btw WIZARDS FTW? Pwn you all if they wanted too ^^
  • Viper_girl - Heavens Tear
    Viper_girl - Heavens Tear Posts: 541 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    The_owner - Lost City wrote: »
    Btw WIZARDS FTW? Pwn you all if they wanted too ^^

    ROFL, I'll remember to KOS u if I see u on LC.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    The_owner - Lost City wrote: »
    Btw WIZARDS FTW? Pwn you all if they wanted too ^^

    I started with a wiz. It was rather boring and limited (dependent) compared to a veno. It does compliment my veno nice as an occasional DD / healer though.

    And while everyone gripes that Venos are richest, they also have more expenses. If I just wanted coin: I'd roll a Wiz.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Zirania - Lost City
    Zirania - Lost City Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    I agree that it isn't fair to discriminate against venos who do not have the uber-pet; however, I understand the viewpoint of other players: it's much easier to measure a veno's worth by their pet than it is by their skills, because you can't see the skills until they're in play. Therefore, if they have the ultimate tank pet they are garaunteed to be useful, even if you have to yell at them to do it right.

    I, personally, would rather be a venomancer who has built up her skills and developed good dungeon and general game play strategies, especially considering that venos are good both with soloing and with group play. They can bramble gaurd, spark transfer, and use their pet to save the tank in a time of emergency. In a world where we're getting drowned in cash shop pets though, it makes it even more difficult to keep up if you don't conform.
    So maybe we should start a discussion on ways to outdo a cash shop pet ^^. Anyone have any suggestions?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]We do not know what we want and yet we are responsible for what we are - that is the fact.
  • Zirania - Lost City
    Zirania - Lost City Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Actually, from what I understand, wizards usually get their butts kicked by venos.
    I've defeated a wiz who was 10X higher than me in a duel >.> it's the pet that gets you I think.
    We usually don't though because wizzies rock :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]We do not know what we want and yet we are responsible for what we are - that is the fact.
  • Akie_Sano - Sanctuary
    Akie_Sano - Sanctuary Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    This is why I quit being a Veno.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Barbariankev - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i dont like venos with hercs tanking they make me feel so usseless
    i also saw alot of them fail because they would tank so cleric could DD
    it caused me to do alot of leeroy jenkins actions to prevent squad wipes (not all venos with hercs fail)

    You wouldn't like me then. I'm very greedy, I feel that Barbarians that don't work to minimize their costs don't deserve the group to subsidize their tanking expenses (whether that's giving them earlier picks, more items, or flat out giving them coin). You see, in 2-2 squad (haven't done 2-3 so I can't give an example of there) a herc is capable of tanking everything except for wurlord and cosmoforce (with one veno). The herc will also have higher aggro, so why not have the herc tank the ones that it can? The squad loses a small amount of dps (trade veno nukes for barb damage) and the barb avoids a ton of armor repairs and potential charm ticks. That works out to a pretty big coin savings. The same is true of barbs who tank EVERY mob the squad runs across, hercs=free tanking, but their aggro is nothing like a barbs in that situation, so the pet tanked mobs are best left until others are dead (though a magmite is quite a bit higher aggro, and can hold solid aggro on basepop without the squad holding back).

    Tweakz, I've stopped mentioning inefficiencies in peoples playstyles in pickup groups, honestly I just don't want to play with people that aren't observant to notice them (unless there's only one or two and the person seems fairly good otherwise). As for Purge, I've found it useful beyond cosmo at level 10 but the spots it's good are still limited. I'm still not sure though how you can't afford to level it, you should have the spirit unless you have a lot of your sage/demon books, which would leave only coin... and coin is easy. Oh, and everyone sucks at times... I got called a horrible veno by someone 5 seconds before they left a squad the other day, I admit I screwed up, but it was more **** up thinking my squad could read my mind and thinking that they wouldn't run right over to me me as I was grabbing Dimentora (which wiped the group a few seconds later by killing everyone).

    Anyways, compensating people for reasonable expenses is one thing, compensating people for poor play (which most pick up group strats seem to revolve around) is another.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    You wouldn't like me then. I'm very greedy, I feel that Barbarians that don't work to minimize their costs don't deserve the group to subsidize their tanking expenses (whether that's giving them earlier picks, more items, or flat out giving them coin).

    I always seem to end up agreeing with you. The same Barbs that told me to tank bosses for them didn't want to give up or share their positions in choice of drops (the rules stated: "tank" not "barb"). I used to do a lot of Zhen as a Wiz. Barbs take very little damage in Zhen, and don't need charms but got the same cut of loot. Because of negotiations, dilly dallyers, etc, it's much more profitable for us to solo TT's (at least the earlier ones). I don't think people understand how they waste our potential. I love good barbs, but there are issues with the game that can put barbs and venos at odds.
    You see, in 2-2 squad (haven't done 2-3 so I can't give an example of there) a herc is capable of tanking everything except for wurlord and cosmoforce (with one veno).

    I don't remember a problem with Cosmo, and that was before I got boss tanking equips. Maybe I'm mistaken, or it's pure mag vs arcane or vit?
    I'm still not sure though how you can't afford to level it, you should have the spirit unless you have a lot of your sage/demon books, which would leave only coin... and coin is easy.

    It has a little to do with spirit, a little to do with wanting to be able to afford a rare sage book if it pops up, a little to do with some empty slots on equips and the perfect garnet/garnet gems I'm imbuing. I also just bought some phys atk /def stuff since I notice a lot more usefulness of fox form lately.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Foxx - Heavens Tear
    Foxx - Heavens Tear Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    tweakz wrote: »
    Recently I was in a 2-3 run with another veno. I have Lv.1 purge, and a Herc while they had some kind of wolf and an obviously higher purge level (faster cool down is only benefit so I can purge 1/4 as often as L.10/sage).

    I guess you are talking about cosmoforce.
    Even with purge maxed, you still have to share the job with another veno as he recasts too fast.

    In fact all the bosses Ive fought recast their buffs too fast for a single veno to purge. Its almost a waste of time maxing it.
    I don't remember a problem with Cosmo, and that was before I got boss tanking equips. Maybe I'm mistaken, or it's pure mag vs arcane or vit?

    When he buffs himself, I couldnt keep my lvl 97 pet alive reliably. Id be ok for a couple of minutes and then he'd get a lucky hit.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Could you solo heal cosmo in 2-2? When I tried I wasn't able to, the herc would eventually die. I'm pure mag (or close, I have about 20 assorted points in other stats from before I knew better... just never seemed worth spending the coin to fix) so if a herc can be healed on something at a given level I should be able to heal it.

    I have to agree about the wasted potential, I swear it comes down to peoples ego's and nothing more. Fortunately I usually have the same barb in my squads and he knows when he should/shouldn't tank, doesn't cry over charm ticks, and pays attention. It's pretty rare to find barbs or well, any players like that.
  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited September 2009
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    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Could you solo heal cosmo in 2-2? When I tried I wasn't able to, the herc would eventually die. I'm pure mag (or close, I have about 20 assorted points in other stats from before I knew better... just never seemed worth spending the coin to fix) so if a herc can be healed on something at a given level I should be able to heal it.

    I have to agree about the wasted potential, I swear it comes down to peoples ego's and nothing more. Fortunately I usually have the same barb in my squads and he knows when he should/shouldn't tank, doesn't cry over charm ticks, and pays attention. It's pretty rare to find barbs or well, any players like that.

    Indeed. People have some ego... I ran a 1-2 yesterday with an Archer who was sure he'd gain aggro over a Herc 4 levels higher than him on ? bosses, and a Veno who yelled at me when I pulled out my Golem, instead of my Herc... I pulled out my Golem because the Archer was getting aggro on all the random mobs... And then got informed, "Either you use your herc, or I'll take it." Not that there's any way to do that... At least they let me have first dibs on drops because I subbed. Broken Shard of Gold Armor FTW. b:pleased
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