Think venomancers are overpowered? Please read.

Torsay - Sanctuary

Lack of spirit is main disadvantage for clerics also clerics are mana eaters. Reasons why clerics rather make a veno or quit after a while.

Looks like mostly venos are talking in this thread. You guys like yourself much eh?

I like the heavy venos cause they need my buffs :P I have met maybe two so far. Don't know why people don't play them more.

Personally I got nothing against soloists.

Granrey - Sanctuary

Venos are overpowered compared to other classes. However:

I do not see a problem with it since I am on a PvE sever and do not do PK.
I actually like it since I can call my friend Veno anytime to help me out with magic mobs.
An easy class is a must on every game for non-skillful players.

Just a note from last weekend in which I found a new veno friend:

I was level 42 BM and I’m fighting level 41 mobs. The veno sends me a squad invitation, I accepted and I notice she is level 30 with a wolfkin pet.

This is the conversation:
Me: what are you doing here? I could not even touch these mobs are your level?
Veno: I know, but I can kill them and they give me more exps than my current level mobs.
Me: can you pull that mutant jack out of the pack with your “pull skill”?
Veno: I don’t know which skill is that but I can pull the mob anyways by attacking it with my pet.
Me: I don’t know about the name of the skill or how you use it, but you need it for FB39 since some mobs are connected. You will be required to pull single mobs a lot.
Veno: ah FB39. I have been in FB39 already*.


I hope I wrote this properly and you tell me if there is overpower or not. LOL
*She could be lying here but who knows.

Lessie - Lost City

Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »

Venos are overpowered compared to other classes.

Not end-game, any well geared 9x can stand a phoenix and 2-3 shot a well geared veno.
Except heavy veno agaisnt pdmg classes.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Reikara - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Venomancers can solo bosses provided their levels are MUCH higher than the boss. Barb+cleric can do it in the same level range. TT takes quite a long time in squad mode, and pretty much can only solo squade mode if we have a 20mil-uhm, I mean .. hercules pet. Golems can't cut it.

If you're an arcane build veno in pvp, no matter what pet you have you're still squishy, even if it's a pheonix. The other classes should note they shouldnt be attacking the pet, but the one-shot veno instead.

Please use correct info only. Stun skill does miss, and can miss alot. It also only stuns for 2 seconds, nothing compared to a blademaster's stun or cleric's "sleep skill". 95% chance for stun at level 10 (this skill is very costly)
only 50% chance to stun at level 1.

Bramble hood only lasts for 15 seconds. It only reflects 200% [Melee] damage too. Dont hit them, dont die. Not to mention gaining two sparks for it can be quite hard in pvp. Phoenix only sucks now. Once everyone is 90+ with 6k HP+ it wont hurt much at all. I could also suggest ways to survive them now but not like anyone would listen

No, in my opinion venos arent overpowered at all. Maybe if we had an aoe pet we would be. Consider that the whole pet deal is because they're designed to be the best [PVE SOLO CLASS]. So whining that we're able to tank/solo bosses is completly useless and has no credit to the argument at all. It's like complaining that clerics can heal tanks through bosses.

Good point about Bramble Hood. I realized that archers have Winged Shell, which basically almost eliminates all damage taken while recharging the MP used. It also uses far, far less chi. So, that goes off the list...

You do have to acknowledge that it's not simple to get to level 90+. Maybe you're right about what will happen at that level, but until then, a veno with a phoenix is hard to counter. Considering how much time and money goes into a phoenix, though, it might be fair, but only if other classes are given the same opportunity to get some sort of very expensive, very good upgrade. That's not a reality right now, unfortunately. Venos have that opportunity, while others do not.

Yes, venos are designed to be the best solo class, but being able to easily take down Kong singlehandedly while others can only dream about it is huge. Such a feat is usually only possible with a Herc, though, and that brings me back to what I said about venos having the option for such a pet.

mbrunestud wrote: »

um...venos paying $200 thinking they deserve to be able to solo tt70 need to put that into perspective: do note that no amount of money will allow an archer to solo tt70, for example. correct me if im wrong.

not necessarily saying venos r op, and definitely not that every other class should be able to solo like that...each class does have their advantages and roles.
if u want to discuss the balance of each class, consider discussing them w/ equipment of similar values (like if venos have a herc, then what does everyone else get for $200?)

Exactly what I think. If other classes were given the same opportunity for upgrades, things would become more balanced without having to change a thing about venos or their pets.

Foxx_trott - Heavens Tear wrote: »

All classes probably should be given some item they can buy that makes their class special and stronger, as us venos can. It only seems fair.

Right.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »

Venos are overpowered compared to other classes. However:

Veno: ah FB39. I have been in FB39 already*.


I hope I wrote this properly and you tell me if there is overpower or not. LOL
*She could be lying here but who knows.

There's no way to tell if she's been in the actual dungeon but if she helped an fb39 before she hits level 39, she didn't get the XP from the tabs O_O

Reikara - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Please use correct info only....


Bramble hood only lasts for 15 seconds. It only reflects 200% [Melee] damage too. Dont hit them, dont die. Not to mention gaining two sparks for it can be quite hard in pvp. Phoenix only sucks now. Once everyone is 90+ with 6k HP+ it wont hurt much at all. I could also suggest ways to survive them now but not like anyone would listen

I think it's ironic that you put those two statements in the same post because Bramble in fact reflects RANGED damage too b:laugh To be specific it reflects physical damage, regardless of range.

Excuse the stupid double post on the bottom VVVVV

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

-edited-

Sorry I double posted

chipsing1234

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Good point about Bramble Hood. I realized that archers have Winged Shell, which basically almost eliminates all damage taken while recharging the MP used. It also uses far, far less chi. So, that goes off the list...

You do have to acknowledge that it's not simple to get to level 90+. Maybe you're right about what will happen at that level, but until then, a veno with a phoenix is hard to counter. Considering how much time and money goes into a phoenix, though, it might be fair, but only if other classes are given the same opportunity to get some sort of very expensive, very good upgrade. That's not a reality right now, unfortunately. Venos have that opportunity, while others do not.

Yes, venos are designed to be the best solo class, but being able to easily take down Kong singlehandedly while others can only dream about it is huge. Such a feat is usually only possible with a Herc, though, and that brings me back to what I said about venos having the option for such a pet.



Exactly what I think. If other classes were given the same opportunity for upgrades, things would become more balanced without having to change a thing about venos or their pets.



Right.

Again, Aerilius, you're comparing winged shell and bramble hood directly. You forget that winged shell is an archer's only means of defense, against magic or physical attacks. Venos have bramble guard to discourage constant physical attacks, a quick hp/mp switch, and a quick hp recovery. At lvl 71, it's 50% hp recovery. Need I compare this to 20% bm recovery that requires one spark? Also, in the case where the person is trying to get away, the veno has the pet to distract the mob/person, and summer sprint at lvl 59+ gives faster movement buff than the archer movement buff. Plus, that is level 2 summer sprint, which costs less to upgrade than to get Wings of Protection to a comparable effect. Consider all this, and venos get bramble hood.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Again, Aerilius, you're comparing winged shell and bramble hood directly. You forget that winged shell is an archer's only means of defense, against magic or physical attacks. Venos have bramble guard to discourage constant physical attacks, a quick hp/mp switch, and a quick hp recovery. At lvl 71, it's 50% hp recovery. Need I compare this to 20% bm recovery that requires one spark? Also, in the case where the person is trying to get away, the veno has the pet to distract the mob/person, and summer sprint at lvl 59+ gives faster movement buff than the archer movement buff. Plus, that is level 2 summer sprint, which costs less to upgrade than to get Wings of Protection to a comparable effect. Consider all this, and venos get bramble hood.

You forgot to add that Bramble lasts the full duration of its effect time whereas our shell skill gets knocked out at 810 damage at level 10.

But all this aside, I think venos should be buffed even more. Their pets need to be nerfed and their own skills improved.

chipsing1234

By the way, if you want to emphasize how venos can solo instances and make/save tons of money/time, put it in more bullets. If you condense it all into one single advantage it loses the magnitude of its imbalance.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

- Long range, can grind without being touched

No.

Archers have the easiest time using Light Armor, since it's our default
Archers **** PVP
Archers can kill any class (whereas if you're a BM haha, GL killing barbs)
Archers have the best chasing/escaping skills, NOT INCLUDING VENOS PET-KITING >_<
Miniscule HP/MP pool means pots go a long way And I guess charms burn less per tick, but I burn my HP charm like nothing anyways -.-

Clerics also have physical + magical skills.
Clerics do big nuking damage at lower channeling times than wizards
Clerics can stack Ironheart
Clerics have that plume shield thingy
Clerics can stack heals before dueling timer ends (Allowable since it's a skill but SOOO IMBA O_O)
GO METAL MAGES
Oh yes let's not forget...Clerics have a hell of an easy time finding a party for fbs/TTs/everything.

BMs have to buy different skills for different weapons
BMs have to spread out their attribute points the most (need str, dex, and vit O_o)

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

swiftlikeafox wrote: »

The funniest part is that the OP tries to present himself as an "well informed unbiased observer", even going so far as to call this thread "the OFFICIAL end of this argument".... yet his bias is quite visable to anyone with even 5% of a brain.b:shocked

....any venos feeding this thread are just giving him more ammunition with which to attempt to "shoot us down with"..... a classic example of a trolling thread.

bolvork wrote: »

Yeah I'm a little disappointed in the OP myself. He was sneaky in making it appear he was being objective. But came off as being very biased. It's just another junk thread, to add to the other junk threads of similar if not exact subject matter.

I'm trying to be as objective as I can. You make it sound as if merely disagreeing with how venos are designed is inflammatory and wrong. What should I be doing differently, then? You say it's "just another junk thread", when I'm trying to make it as balanced as I can. I didn't start the thread by posting some flamebait about how venos suck because they can do everything.

What am I doing wrong? If you have a problem, then bring it up, but please be specific about it instead of just ranting about how I should straighten myself out.

To everyone else: I'm trying to keep up with the people posting in here, and I'm sorry if I haven't addressed your post yet. Honestly, I wish a mod or GM were doing this instead, but it seems like this is an issue they don't want to touch with a ten foot pole, and would rather just ignore.

Edit: Just to reiterate, it looks like clerics are now portrayed as the strongest class on the list, followed by venos. You really think I'm trying to demonize venos here?

I strongly support the idea of giving other classes stuff to spend $200 on. Venos wouldn't have to touched then, along with their pets, and the people complaining about phoenixes and hercs (like myself) would have to shut up about them being able to use such pets. Hell, it would even make more money for PWI - more stuff to use your real-world cash on!

Coshten - Sanctuary

Toxickiss - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes i agree you do, I fully believe that a cleric is the hardest working class in squad.

What I was saying is that he was acting as though our pets just go do their thing and we don't have to worry about them. I wanted to just get him to realize that it's not smooth sailing. Being a veno can be frustrating also.

I agree with what you was saying too... I wasn't trying to say you was wrong, I'm sorry if it came out like that... I've played a veno up until a lil over 30 and it is harder in some ways than people would lead someone to believe... Veno's do have their advantages over other classes too tho but then again there are also advantages to other classes over veno's also... I think the classes as a whole are pretty well rounded... I think that if someone has a problem with veno's then jus play another class and ignore them... This is a game, its supposed to be fun, not time spent putting people down over their class choice... b:victory

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

- Clerics can heal and buff better than wizards, and have faster-casting spells that do nearly as much damage - why roll a wizard then?

Well...because of:

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

- Highest single attacks of any class

Their slow casting time makes them suck at duels but in PvP when you're ambushing or in TW when you're at the back where no one is hitting you (yet), channel and cast time doesn't matter as much. Wizards still do the most raw damage and that is invaluable in TW, especially when you're hitting the bottleneck part between the gates. Wizards will drop catapult pullers like nothing and can lay waste to a cluster of units as easily as BMs can wipe your back rank squishies. They drop catapult pullers faster than archers (but it's still important for archers to stun/slow the puller), making them deadly in an organized party.

In PvE.....well I didn't roll a wizard :P.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Their slow casting time makes them suck at duels but in PvP when you're ambushing or in TW when you're at the back where no one is hitting you (yet), channel and cast time doesn't matter as much. Wizards still do the most raw damage and that is invaluable in TW, especially when you're hitting the bottleneck part between the gates. Wizards will drop catapult pullers like nothing and can lay waste to a cluster of melee units as easily as BMs can wipe your back rank squishies. In PvE.....well I didn't roll a wizard :P.

So the only reason to play a wizard would be for TW's, then? Wizards are the definition of glass cannons. They can dish it out better than anyone, and can also get one-shotted by a smart archer.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I strongly support the idea of giving other classes stuff to spend $200 on. Venos wouldn't have to touched then, along with their pets, and the people complaining about phoenixes and hercs (like myself) would have to shut up about them being able to use such pets. Hell, it would even make more money for PWI - more stuff to use your real-world cash on!

Agree? Disagree? I think this might be the solution.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

I disagree -.- Like I said before, IMO the flesh ream should be fixed and the venos should be buffed. Let them have the herc. It's not **** PvP unfairly, just making the venos abnormally rich and soloable.

And yes, I think the only advantage of rolling a wizard is to murder the PvP world. The ridiculous damage is awesome against mobs but the MP cost of doing so is not. Light armor sucks for you because you can't use dex like venos can. If you go arcane of course you're squishy like hell because your vit benefits suck. And in TT? You may do more damage but an archer is going to have what 15% of the boss' HP head start on you despite lower dps because of the HP debuff.

BUT the nuking damage is so high that wizards rip through arcane armor too xDD

Hmm....now that I think about it...wizards need some more benefits too. I feel sorry for my wizard alt -.-

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I disagree -.- Like I said before, IMO the flesh ream should be fixed and the venos should be buffed.

And yes, I think the only advantage of rolling a wizard is to murder the PvP world. The ridiculous damage is awesome against mobs but the MP cost of doing so is not. Light armor sucks for you because you can't use dex like venos can. If you go arcane of course you're squishy like hell because your vit benefits suck. And in TT? You may do more damage but an archer is going to have what 15% of the boss' HP head start on you despite lower dps because of the HP debuff.

Considering how much time and effort goes into a phoenix, I think the damage it can do is deserved. Besides, the venos posting in here are fighting tooth and nail against such a thing, and a lot of them are right, I think.

Giving the other classes epic stuff to spend $200 would allow them not only to provide some counter against phoenixes and hercs, but also make them appreciate just how much effort goes into such a thing. I get the feeling that if I had grinded my butt off for a phoenix, I wouldn't want it nerfed, either.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

I didn't say the nix should be nerfed. I said the flesh ream should be fixed. It's different >_> A petite sawfly can learn flesh ream and still ****.

Personally I don't want a $200 thing for archers because I'd end up having to buy it just to compete with other archers. If the venos wanna do it, that's their thing. It's like comparing boob sizes to me -.-.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Considering how much time and effort goes into a phoenix, I think the damage it can do is deserved. Besides, the venos posting in here are fighting tooth and nail against such a thing, and a lot of them are right, I think.

Giving the other classes epic stuff to spend $200 would allow them not only to provide some counter against phoenixes and hercs, but also make them appreciate just how much effort goes into such a thing. I get the feeling that if I had grinded my butt off for a phoenix, I wouldn't want it nerfed, either.

<

---

In the middle of grinding her butt off for a phoenix.b:surrender

Niamy - Sanctuary

Other post of murder, death, kill, dismember, hate, banish, hit, kick, etc etc the veno?
I don't read all post bcause is always the same thing... and i will no write theory of why X class is overpower or else... we go to see the TRUE, the amount of each class in the official PVP/LVL ranking:

PVP Ranking:
LC
Archer 22
Wizard 7
Venomancer 7
Barbarian 7
Blademaster 5
Cleric 2

HT
Archer 16
Venomancer 7
Cleric 8
Wizard 8
Blademaster 8
Barbarian 3

Sanctuary
Archer 20
Venomancer 10
Wizard 9
Cleric 5
Blademaster 4
Barbarian 2

Level ranking:
LC
Archer 14
Venomancer 10
Cleric 10
Blademaster 7
Barbarian 6
Wizard 3

HT
Archer 12
Cleric 11
Venomancer 9
Barbarian 9
Wizard 7
Blademaster 2

Sanctuary
Actually can't say bcause the ranking page of sanctuary is working bad T_T

Well i don't see the veno superiority... in fact the archers have a great superiority in lvls and pvp.
Anyway i admit just there re some bugs like the flesh ream... but say "veno overpower"? that's too much

b:bye

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

<

---

In the middle of grinding her butt off for a phoenix.b:surrender

As a veno, would you agree with leaving the veno/phoenix/herc alone, and giving the other classes $200 optional items that can compare with a phoenix/herc?

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Niamy - Sanctuary wrote: »

Other post of murder, death, kill, dismember, hate, banish, hit, kick, etc etc the veno?
I don't read all post bcause is always the same thing... and i will no write theory of why X class is overpower or else... we go to see the TRUE, the amount of each class in the official PVP/LVL ranking:

Well i don't see the veno superiority... in fact the archers have a great superiority in lvls and pvp.
Anyway i admit just there re some bugs like the flesh ream... but say "veno overpower"? that's too much

b:bye

Good, statistics. Solid fact. It makes a big point. I'll add that venos are outshone by some other classes in PVP.

Soooo venos are unsurpassed in PVE, but are mediocre at PVP. Yet, people are saying phoenixes are the bane of their existence. *ponders*

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As a veno, would you agree with leaving the veno/phoenix/herc alone, and giving the other classes $200 optional items that can compare with a phoenix/herc?

I don't pvp anymore anyway. I don't see a problem with that.
Give archers something that stops them from being able to steal agro, this way they can unload their full power for example

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't pvp anymore anyway. I don't see a problem with that.
Give archers something that stops them from being able to steal agro, this way they can unload their full power for example

*writes idea down*

Lessie - Lost City

Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There's no way to tell if she's been in the actual dungeon but if she helped an fb39 before she hits level 39, she didn't get the XP from the tabs O_O



I think it's ironic that you put those two statements in the same post because Bramble in fact reflects RANGED damage too b:laugh To be specific it reflects physical damage, regardless of range.

Excuse the stupid double post on the bottom VVVVV

:O just saw this **** post, sry if someone addressed this stupidity already.
Bramble hood only reflects MELEE pdmg and an archer's melee skill not sure about that one, there is NO WAY to reflect ranged dmg.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Lessie - Lost City wrote: »

:O just saw this **** post, sry if someone addressed this stupidity already.
Bramble hood only reflects MELEE pdmg and an archer's melee skill not sure about that one, there is NO WAY to reflect ranged dmg.

Hey, I can even prove that since you are on HT server. Duel me and I'll use bramble hood, you will see it does not reflect your attacks.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Since Bramble Hood has huge positives and equally huge negatives, it's not been added as either to the list. I personally believe it is a skill that can be deadly if used right, but can also easily be avoided in PVP, where just about all the complaints stem from. Am I right here?

chipsing1234

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

*writes idea down*

Wait, are we taking suggestions now on how to improve classes? Don't start this...it'll be spam full of arguments of what improvement would imbalance what. I thought this thread was about listing the pros and cons of each class.

chipsing1234

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Since Bramble Hood has huge positives and equally huge negatives, it's not been added as either to the list. I personally believe it is a skill that can be deadly if used right, but can also easily be avoided in PVP, where just about all the complaints stem from. Am I right here?

The main complaint is that the technique allows the user to become nearly invincible (not to be confused with the invincible technique venos can get at 79). A veno who uses this with phoenix will chase down any running opponent.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Wait, are we taking suggestions now on how to improve classes? Don't start this...it'll be spam full of arguments of what improvement would imbalance what. I thought this thread was about listing the pros and cons of each class.

We'll get to it. That will be the end goal. However, to know how to fix the whole situation, one has to first know exactly what he/she's dealing with.

chipsing1234 wrote: »

The main complaint is that the technique allows the user to become nearly invincible (not to be confused with the invincible technique venos can get at 79). A veno who uses this with phoenix will chase down any running opponent.

Shouldn't the phoenix be able to do this, considering the money spent? Instead of nerfing the phoenix, why not give all the other classes stuff to spend $200 on as well? You know that venos really don't want the phoenix to be nerfed, and besides, archers are the top PVPers on every server anyway. If you're talking about PVP, maybe archers are the ones who should be nerfed, not venos (more specifically, their phoenixes).