Boundless Purify Proc and Is Boundless Worth It?

eirghan

Recently I got r9 for my veno and was really enjoying the purify procs on her r999 weapon (even if I couldn't get a good roll for the life of me!) After re rolling the r999 weapon at least 30 times, I gave up and decided to give the boundless pataka a shot since it was better for PVP and I didn't have to roll it.

After a few weeks of playing with it It was becoming clear to me that it wasn't just RNG that was giving me less purify procs though. I asked around and others had inklings of doubt as well, but nothing substantial.

So going back to the beginning I dug up Adriot's old post on r8r purify proc chance vs r999 and decided using this information as a starting point i would do a little test of my own to find out if what I was experiencing was bad RNG or something more.

I want to get this information out to as many people as possible so that you don't make the mistake I did by losing my r999 weapon (which I can never get back unless @orinj will help me) and making an uninformed decision by assuming the same stat means... Well. The same stat.

Here is the video of my testing. Be sure to turn the sound UP because I am a quiet person!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfgeQEXTzXk

I did 200 hit tests on each weapon (r8r, r999 and Boundless) and recorded the purification procs I got with each weapon.
Of course this is very basic (i didn't calculate for missed hits for example) and from a small sample size, but it DOES give an idea of what we are looking at between the different weapons.

Here are my results:

Rank 8 Recast:
Data: 12 procs out of 200 hits
Estimate for Proc Chance: 6%
95% Confidence Interval: 2.71% - 9.29%

Rank 9 Third Cast:
Data: 27 procs out of 200 hits
Estimate for Proc Chance: 13.5%
95% Confidence Interval: 7.35% - 19.65%

Boundless Cast:
Data: 9 procs out of 200 hits
Estimate for Proc Chance: 4.5%
95% Confidence Interval: 0.53% - 8.47%


As you can see my results told me that we have less than half the chance to get a purification proc with boundless compared to the rank 9 third cast weapon. I'm not 100% sure if it's RNG that is making the boundless appear to have less purify chance than even the rank 8 recast. Frankly the sample size is too small to make anything more than a broad assumption so we do need more testing. However, this is enough information to make the conclusion that this is a huge con against getting this weapon. Especially when at first glance the Boundless seems nothing but improvement for most classes. In conclusion, please, please, PLEASE take this into account before deciding to go ahead with recasting your weapon since this has every possibility to negatively affect your Player vs. Player encounters!!!!

I also have been doing testing and calculating on the other weapons as well so that IS on it's way.

Also check out a little calculator I made for calculating an average (very average) estimate on your damage increase by getting Boundless. This is a work in progress and will be more useful once I conclude testing on the other weapons. If you'd like to use it now be sure to make a copy first to enable editing the cells.

​​

arspaulina#4310

I...would be very, very hesitant to take a small sample size like that and based calcs off of that. This is reminiscent of all the pack chance threads I've seen a long time ago and people debating if the rates are truly what is being said/advertised/searched on the PWdatabase. I'm almost inclined to transfer this to the Quality Corner forums if only for the fact that if it IS something on the backend that is causing this, that would need to be bugged. But I'll leave it here for now as visibility for other people to comment on it if they have done more testing or have had similar experiences on other weapons (i.e. if this is just an isolated event, or a handful of weapons or if this is, indeed, just really bad RNG.)

Disclaimer : I myself have not upgraded my weapon, so I don't have any data to provide for or against the proc chances.

xskysoldier

@orinj Please take a look at this and pleaseeeeee talk to the devs. xD

eirghan

arspaulina#4310 wrote: »

I...would be very, very hesitant to take a small sample size like that and based calcs off of that. This is reminiscent of all the pack chance threads I've seen a long time ago and people debating if the rates are truly what is being said/advertised/searched on the PWdatabase. I'm almost inclined to transfer this to the Quality Corner forums if only for the fact that if it IS something on the backend that is causing this, that would need to be bugged. But I'll leave it here for now as visibility for other people to comment on it if they have done more testing or have had similar experiences on other weapons (i.e. if this is just an isolated event, or a handful of weapons or if this is, indeed, just really bad RNG.)

Disclaimer : I myself have not upgraded my weapon, so I don't have any data to provide for or against the proc chances.

More testing absolutely needs to be done and I admit it freely both here and in the video that it is a very small sample size. But this isn't about quality corner stuff and claiming there is a bug. It is about two different purify procs existing in game (taken as common knowledge for a long time) and a small test to see if we can make an educated assumption on whether the boundless shares the r999 or r8r version of the purify proc. The small test shows it PROBABLY shares the r8r weapon's version of the proc.

To get absolute and accurate PROC PERCENTS FOR EACH WEAPON thousands and thousands of hits would need to be recorded and analyzed which frankly i don't have the time, resources, or energy to do that on my own. So this is a small test and request for more data if people feel like helping the project.

People are more than welcome to challenge my findings with their own data, this is about knowledge after all, not someone being right, so if you believe it's too small a sample size maybe that is a good motivation for others to contribute.

Edit: I want to state one last thing, You mention testing done to challenge pack percents, but this is a bit different in that there is nowhere stated purify proc percent chance in game or in any resources (like PW database) that I can find so if PWI was willing to provide that information to it's player base I think that would be a positive move in the right direction, and also help us with more accurate information regarding each weapon since right now all we have is the very limited data the playerbase has gathered in the last few years.
​​

xskysoldier

I watch Ruby_Inferno's videos and he went for the boundless wep. I noticed it hardly ticks when he does 1v1s...so of course i won't go for the boundless wep until Pwi does something about it. >,>

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1iXIlWaQNbg

eirghan

xskysoldier wrote: »

I watch Ruby_Inferno's videos and he went for the boundless wep. I noticed it hardly ticks when he does 1v1s...so of course i won't go for the boundless wep until Pwi does something about it. >,>

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1iXIlWaQNbg

you make a good point maybe watching youtube videos is a good way to gather more data on weapons would certainly save me the effort of recording.​​

xskysoldier

eirghan wrote: »

xskysoldier wrote: »

I watch Ruby_Inferno's videos and he went for the boundless wep. I noticed it hardly ticks when he does 1v1s...so of course i won't go for the boundless wep until Pwi does something about it. >,>

you make a good point maybe watching youtube videos is a good way to gather more data on weapons would certainly save me the effort of recording.​​

I think something happened that made the boundless wep for casters proc less. Which i hope that is the case...because people literally lost their R93rd wep for the boundless. I bet many who switched are furious with the results. I do hope something can be done.

aphrodita

im a magic DD and i noticed the same behaviour of my new boundless weapon in the 100 mob room of the Heavenfall Temple. i usually pull all 100 together, before i attack. i run into the crowd, let them hit me, to get speeded up and reach the next orb fester. but since i have the weapon (a few weeks), it takes much longer till the proc appears. i thought i was just unlucky but it now makes sense. this needs a quick fix - or time to reroll duskblade.

@orinj @thenamesdomino

zuiba

After getting my boundless Scythe, I decided to try PV out and multiple instances I literally just stood there for a good minute with about a 100+ mobs hitting me and no purify proc. Comparing that with my old R9RR weapon where I used to get chains of purify proc while pulling. I don't get that with this new weapon at all. I'd be lucky to proc more than 5 times in PV now. I'll see if I can record it next time I feel like doing PV...

shade13

I took a risk making boundless weap, but if I knew, I'd think longer if it's worth it or not. I guess, there is no point to ask for refunding or whatever Even if GMs let ppl roll their weaps back, money for buying mats and refining is lost.​​

arspaulina#4310

eirghan wrote: »

More testing absolutely needs to be done and I admit it freely both here and in the video that it is a very small sample size. But this isn't about quality corner stuff and claiming there is a bug. It is about two different purify procs existing in game (taken as common knowledge for a long time) and a small test to see if we can make an educated assumption on whether the boundless shares the r999 or r8r version of the purify proc. The small test shows it PROBABLY shares the r8r weapon's version of the proc.

To get absolute and accurate PROC PERCENTS FOR EACH WEAPON thousands and thousands of hits would need to be recorded and analyzed which frankly i don't have the time, resources, or energy to do that on my own. So this is a small test and request for more data if people feel like helping the project.

People are more than welcome to challenge my findings with their own data, this is about knowledge after all, not someone being right, so if you believe it's too small a sample size maybe that is a good motivation for others to contribute.[/color]​​

This is the part that would trip me into thinking that there's something going on if there is indeed two different types as indicated in the other thread you linked. If it's two different kinds being applied, then we'll be needing more testing to validate these and see if its something like add on descriptions needing to be changed to denote to the user that there ARE indeed two different types of purify proc, or if this is something deeper rooted going on that would need further explanation from China. In either case, that would definitely something to flag. And oh sorry if it came off as "so and so is or isnt right" I'd want to see more data :P (and I'm thumbing though the other thread as well to look at it) Today's been a busy day for me so I'll be slow to respond

eirghan

arspaulina#4310 wrote: »

eirghan wrote: »

More testing absolutely needs to be done and I admit it freely both here and in the video that it is a very small sample size. But this isn't about quality corner stuff and claiming there is a bug. It is about two different purify procs existing in game (taken as common knowledge for a long time) and a small test to see if we can make an educated assumption on whether the boundless shares the r999 or r8r version of the purify proc. The small test shows it PROBABLY shares the r8r weapon's version of the proc.

To get absolute and accurate PROC PERCENTS FOR EACH WEAPON thousands and thousands of hits would need to be recorded and analyzed which frankly i don't have the time, resources, or energy to do that on my own. So this is a small test and request for more data if people feel like helping the project.

People are more than welcome to challenge my findings with their own data, this is about knowledge after all, not someone being right, so if you believe it's too small a sample size maybe that is a good motivation for others to contribute.[/color]

This is the part that would trip me into thinking that there's something going on if there is indeed two different types as indicated in the other thread you linked. If it's two different kinds being applied, then we'll be needing more testing to validate these and see if its something like add on descriptions needing to be changed to denote to the user that there ARE indeed two different types of purify proc, or if this is something deeper rooted going on that would need further explanation from China. In either case, that would definitely something to flag. And oh sorry if it came off as "so and so is or isnt right" I'd want to see more data :P (and I'm thumbing though the other thread as well to look at it) Today's been a busy day for me so I'll be slow to respond

Nah I'm not offended in the least, you're totally right. We are looking at it through different lenses though. You are looking for a legitimate way to identify problems in the game (which hell yes awesome) and I was more looking at a way to give myself an educated guess on which purify I got.

But if PWI is looking for a LARGE scale test done to verify Adroit's original concept (what players have assumed for years is two different procs) then hit me up. I would love to be involved in a test like that if it means PWI will actually look at addressing it.

That said I would hate to lose the increased proc rate of r999 because it's so good ;__;

shade13 wrote: »

I took a risk making boundless weap, but if I knew, I'd think longer if it's worth it or not. I guess, there is no point to ask for refunding or whatever Even if GMs let ppl roll their weaps back, money for buying mats and refining is lost.

It deeply disappoints me that I spent so much getting my venomancer top rank gear and doing all dailies and the major reason I got her to end game (purify ftw!) is lost. Luckily your main has much more going for it and can make real use of the extra damage, whereas my veno is fairly weak still and as support has only lost. Actually I really feel that my veno is ruined. I hold a small glimmer of hope that PWI will let me get back my old weapon, even if it means kissing my boundless materials goodbye... But yeah. I'm not holding my breath ​​

joeseiner

I agree and made my own rough testings today. I let my 3.33 aps sin hit my Mystic with r9rr and the increased movement speed buff was on her nearly the entire time. On my storm with boundless however..I would see a proc approx all 10 seconds. Thats roughly 30 hits each proc, sometimes its even far worse. Longest time with no proc was 36 seconds. WITH 3.33 APS. That's just rediculous. No matter how long I had the sin hit the mystic. It kept procing, procing, procing. Even when my friend brought his aps chars and we let both mystic and storm get hit simultanously...it was just the same.

I dont know about you guys, but I really feel like a refund on those mats needed to "upgrade" since this is kinda gamebreaking.

@thenamesdomino @orinj You guys advertised those weapons as being superior to r9rr but now it turns out to be extremely weaker in PvP-Situations. It's not only about those weapons tho. Can you guys please check if the proc chance is that low on G17 weapons as well? If that would be the case than this is surely a reason not to get those new weapons. I guess the Devs can tell the real chances for the procs to come off so maybe we can get an update someday that equals out all procs. It makes no sense to me to have identical procs but with difference success rates which is why I doubted all this for a very long time. I saw it myself. This is a huge problem that I would be more than happy to see addressed asap since alot of people spend a whole lotta money on a (and you cant say it otherwise atm) Downgrade.

catgirldesu

I noticed the lower proc rate within the first hour of getting the weapon because I went to test it right away. I wasn't enitrely sure if it was just bad RNG.

Well, this is not the first nor last time I get punished for making a choice in PWI. I ain't even mad. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It would be nice if they do something about it, but if this isn't a bug and just how the chinese R9r3 is, then they won't do anything. At best they might compensate people for the gold spent on the materials, but I somehow doubt that.

adfaewq

What diffrent proc rate about GOF on bounless weap and R9rr? it like the same as Purify Proc rate on boundless too?

shade13

catgirldesu wrote: »

At best they might compensate people for the gold spent on the materials, but I somehow doubt that.

PWE compensating GOLD sound fantastically unreal xD And let's be honest, not a solution. Giving ppl 200-300 gold while they already have their boundless weap is like too generous gift. I wouldn't mind of course. But facing the fact, they won't give away gold for literally nothing in such amount. Rolling weap back and giving gold is also doubtful, because it also means just giving away gold in huge amounts to some ppl and taking it from others: it's not only weap, but refines, approx 1,3bil +200 mil for gems - it's a serious sum. Will they compensate that? How will they count? And what about ppl who bought it not by csing but buying gold or items from others? I'm pessimistic, but I'm afraid they just won't bother =\ Even though it's not that many ppl who went for r9r4.

eirghan wrote: »

It deeply disappoints me that I spent so much getting my venomancer top rank gear and doing all dailies and the major reason I got her to end game (purify ftw!) is lost. Luckily your main has much more going for it and can make real use of the extra damage, whereas my veno is fairly weak still and as support has only lost.

Yeah... I don't even say I wouldn't go for boundless if I knew. But such things are better to know to consider. Of course extra damage is extra damage, but question is if it's worth the cost and survivability. I'd probably spend my money elsewhere. There are tones of other things to invest in.​​

blazerboy

Normally I would troll but dear god that's rediculous cudos to the 600 times you did this and recoded most of us including me lack the attention span. But geez this glad depends wayyy too much on luck it's stupid but I hope they help u looks like you got ripped off dear god

shade13

blazerboy wrote: »

Normally I would troll but dear god that's rediculous cudos to the 600 times you did this and recoded most of us including me lack the attention span. But geez this glad depends wayyy too much on luck it's stupid but I hope they help u looks like you got ripped off dear god

It was clear before testing. Many ppl noticed it. Yes I know, sometimes you are simply unlucky, and your friend is unlucky, and someone else... But when everyone complains, it's not a coincidence. Who would complain at the new weap which costed a lot, if it worked properly? We'd just enjoy we got it instead of making unnecessary fuss ​​

eirghan

Want to say thanks to the many comments here it is a balm to see so many others validating my experiences, even if its not necessarily good news... Glad to feel not crazy!

GOF is coming soon, but I do feel that more testing is in order for purify specifically, especially since this trait among all has been believed to have an issue for so many years on the PWI version. If anyone is willing to contribute I'm always happy to take the data.

Yesterday in NW Cap says to me "Now I know your purify doesn't work so its safe to thicket you" And hes right. LOL sucks so bad >.<

dingo488

People mentioning percentages, based off no more than 200 hits and drawing a conclusion from that, -sighs- nothing to see here.
Please base it off 1,000,000 hits before actually mentioning any form on conclusion instead of this speculative clownfiesta, even though it might turn it to be true, this is kinda embarrasing... until then...

chary

And now we're left to wonder whether or not g17 weps also have reduced proc rate.​​

zuiba

dingo488 wrote: »

People mentioning percentages, based off no more than 200 hits and drawing a conclusion from that, -sighs- nothing to see here.
Please base it off 1,000,000 hits before actually mentioning any form on conclusion instead of this speculative clownfiesta, even though it might turn it to be true, this is kinda embarrasing... until then...

Isn't that the point of this thread? I know you want to feel smart and all that but don't you think the point of this thread was so that we can aggregate people's experiences/sample tests and maybe make a cohesive generalization that we can bring up to the staff(which might get them to actually look into it)? If you have nothing to contribute to this thread other than a sad attempt to minimize people's legitimate concerns(about something they spent REAL money on), then please stay off this thread. Thanks.

dingo488

zuiba wrote: »

Isn't that the point of this thread? I know you want to feel smart and all that but don't you think the point of this thread was so that we can aggregate people's experiences/sample tests and maybe make a cohesive generalization that we can bring up to the staff(which might get them to actually look into it)? If you have nothing to contribute to this thread other than a sad attempt to minimize people's legitimate concerns(about something they spent REAL money on), then please stay off this thread. Thanks.

a 200 hit sample size is completely useless, and people are jumping too conclusions cuz of it. This whole thread is just misinforming people, if its true, which Im not saying it isnt, present a bigger sample size or stop saying shjt like

eirghan wrote: »

However, this is enough information to make the conclusion that this is a huge con against getting this weapon. ​​

Its cool you put in the work n everything, but you're info is completely useless if you take a sample size of 200 hits. Its like me asking 10 people on the street if they smoke weed, and when 2 people say yes come up with the ground-breaking conclusion that 20% of the people smoke weed... obviously you cant say that, yet I see everyone in the thread jump to conclusions ^-^

zuiba

dingo488 wrote: »

zuiba wrote: »

Isn't that the point of this thread? I know you want to feel smart and all that but don't you think the point of this thread was so that we can aggregate people's experiences/sample tests and maybe make a cohesive generalization that we can bring up to the staff(which might get them to actually look into it)? If you have nothing to contribute to this thread other than a sad attempt to minimize people's legitimate concerns(about something they spent REAL money on), then please stay off this thread. Thanks.

a 200 hit sample size is completely useless, and people are jumping too conclusions cuz of it. This whole thread is just misinforming people, if its true, which Im not saying it isnt, present a bigger sample size or stop saying shjt like

eirghan wrote: »

However, this is enough information to make the conclusion that this is a huge con against getting this weapon. ​​

Its cool you put in the work n everything, but you're info is completely useless if you take a sample size of 200 hits. Its like me asking 10 people on the street if they smoke weed, and when 2 people say yes come up with the ground-breaking conclusion that 20% of the people smoke weed... obviously you cant say that, yet I see everyone in the thread jump to conclusions ^-^

You do understand it is almost impossible(or maybe just very time consuming and inefficient) for any single player to actually get the samples you're asking for, right(and it is easy to simply edit that 200 hits to 2,000,000 hits and no one will be able to verify its validity)? As such, wouldn't it be much smarter as I said, to aggregate people's experiences/sample tests into this thread, get the staff's attention who can ask the developers to look into it if they themselves cannot look into it.

I understand what you're saying but I think in this case, you're barking at a group of people who play this game for fun and spend money on this game to enhance that fun. They should not have to get data from a sample size of 1,000,000 hits on their own time when we can simply bring it up to the staff(once it's proven that it is a legitimate concern) who can probably do a better job of verifying it; hell they probably have the equipment to do so.

dingo488

I know its impossible for a single player to get that data, and its perfectly fine to present ur personal findings. Just dont treat it as conclusive information, which is being done here... This whole thread could just be:

''Yo my weapon seems to proc less, GMs can you confirm?''

and it would have exactly as much substance as it does now, except people wont get trapped into thinking someone is presenting conclusive info, which... Im facepalming at everyone being like ''Damn... if only I knew!''

If anything Im doing her a favor! So she wont waste the time next time to smack someone 600 times only to end up with what she had before, all assumptions and no conclusions.

zuiba

dingo488 wrote: »

I know its impossible for a single player to get that data, and its perfectly fine to present ur personal findings. Just dont treat it as conclusive information, which is being done here... This whole thread could just be:

''Yo my weapon seems to proc less, GMs can you confirm?''

and it would have exactly as much substance as it does now, except people wont get trapped into thinking someone is presenting conclusive info, which... Im facepalming at everyone being like ''Damn... if only I knew!''

Once again buddy, a lot of these people play this game to have fun and spend money to enhance their fun. Your expectations are a bit too high in this case. Let them present their case, I know it's not much of a case, the whole point is to have someone take notice and possibly take a look into it. This is not a research forum where accurate sample sizes and stacks of evidence need to be presented. It's a game forum. Maybe lower your expectations?

capnk

eirghan wrote: »

Yesterday in NW Cap says to me "Now I know your purify doesn't work so its safe to thicket you" And hes right. LOL sucks so bad >.<

Yes, everyone please upgrade to Boundless weapons. I am enjoying your procs not working very much.

shade13

zuiba wrote: »

I understand what you're saying but I think in this case, you're barking at a group of people who play this game for fun and spend money on this game to enhance that fun. They should not have to get data from a sample size of 1,000,000 hits on their own time when we can simply bring it up to the staff(once it's proven that it is a legitimate concern) who can probably do a better job of verifying it; hell they probably have the equipment to do so.

I guess it's right to ignore ppl who don't even have purify x) If ppl want to critisize someone's testing, they better come with their own to compare. Besides it's been said many times, it's based on other ppl experience. Such things don't step forward just because players have nothing to do other than think "I'm so bored today. Let's yell and complain at my new weap on forum, this should be fun" ​​

rieihdius

Really glad that @eirghan made this thread.

I am one of those who was ready to upgrade my veno's weapon, in fact I have all the mats, I was only waiting for an orb sale due the overprice of said item. But some people start saying that the proc on those weapon was really low.

Also I saw a few venos with the boundless pataka (is easy to know due the skin) and I did have a feeling that the weapon had a lower % on the proc. Of course this was only during a few Nation wars so it was not enough to confirm it.

Still if this is the case; is totally not worth. It is true that in my case I would gain 10 atck levels, a bit more chan and crit% ... But if the thing barely procs I will almost have zero % of scape at some situations.

Still would be nice to see an aswer from PWE / Wanmei about this issue.

Let's not forget that this gear along with g17 was one of the big selling points of the Elysium Update
And some people actually charged money to get those weapons...

Really glad I saw this. I guess I will save the mats for a short time and sell them later to at least recover a bit of the $$$

I also add to some of the others petition on this thread:
It would be really nice if @orinj or @thenamesdomino take a look at this thread.

I know that you guys may not know about it, but you may be able to ask the Devs.

teikiatsu11

If this is true the only reason I could think for this happening is due to our r9r3 being a custom set for our version. If true it could just be that due to them making a custom set for us our proc rates were bumped up a bit, creating 2 versions of the weapon proc in the game. One for our r9r3 and one for the r8r/PWCN r9r3.

shade13

teikiatsu11 wrote: »

If this is true the only reason I could think for this happening is due to our r9r3 being a custom set for our version. If true it could just be that due to them making a custom set for us our proc rates were bumped up a bit, creating 2 versions of the weapon proc in the game. One for our r9r3 and one for the r8r/PWCN r9r3.

But making r9r3CN proc rate even worse than r8r? Come on... It would be bearable if it was at least the same, but not lower ​​