Thank you for speaking out against absurd nerfs. Please be aware that they are not updating the listed changes on page 1, and have announced several revisions that are peppered throughout the thread. Please refer to the updates linked by midnightfang93 above, to update your feedback.
Now imagine a low level cw "trying" to get to level 60 ---> very difficult.[/SIZE][/FONT]
My first character was a control wizard and I made it level 60 in under 2 days solo with VERY few deaths; It was the easiest character I've ever leveled.
My first character was a control wizard and I made it level 60 in under 2 days solo with VERY few deaths; It was the easiest character I've ever leveled.
We sat down and looked at the damage potential of all the Control Wizard powers and looked at the damage potential of the power versus the total time spent actively casting it (Damage per cast time or DPCT). This functions like an opportunity cost where you are getting X damage for Y seconds spent casting.
that could explain what happened to shard...
did you take into account that, aside from casting itself, you have to manouver around, push the thing etc?
a "shard rotation" is quite multiple times its raw casttime, and well above casttime+cd.
that could explain what happened to shard...
did you take into account that, aside from casting itself, you have to manouver around, push the thing etc?
a "shard rotation" is quite multiple times its raw casttime, and well above casttime+cd.
Based on the decrease in damage and increase in prone duration changes they're proposing, I think they want to "re-purposing" Shard from a burst damage skill, to a CC skill. Whether its worthwhile as a CC skill is another issue.
I totally agree, but it's like talking to the wind or walls! I'm tired and I'm walking out of the game after all the devs and disrespect shown that +1.800 hours of play (in game) WORTH NOTHING without counting a LOT of the investment $ $ $ (companions, mounts, leveling) so these nerfs (think excesses should rather be tidy) are ridiculous! and I think the community CWs agree with me (at least the pros)! I am very sad with all this change and refuse to mount a new char just to enjoy the new fashion: warlock! I will not fall for that. btw not all cws are "top paingiver" only those who knew combine build> feats> combat advantage> companions> stats and you just IT! MY CONGRATULATIONS! Now imagine a low level cw "trying" to get to level 60 ---> very difficult. RIP CW
Cryptic and now where is my refund?????????????????????
It will be fine, CW was the first char i leveled up, before sudden storm and shard could crit and i didn't even have them skilled/used. And it was easier than leveling up my GWF (harder before the buffs), and those guys are going to be tough to level up, not CWs.
Most of the nerfs are justified, the AOE needs a nerf. I laugh everytime i do my CWs dailies because he can just kill a pack of mobs with 1 button press, where my other classes actually require some time.
Debuffing is shifted to warlocks it seems, as for aoe damage? We do not know how much they will do. Maybe more, but i doubt it will be anywhere near what CWs do now.
The single target nerfs are too much though, since CWs have it hard in pvp. We really lack any defensive capability, for a wizard you would expect them to have a selection of defensive spells (blur, mirror image etc) I think its really needed to take another look at shield and give that a few tweaks and give it more usefulness since it is out only protection spell.
It will be fine, CW was the first char i leveled up, before sudden storm and shard could crit and i didn't even have them skilled/used. And it was easier than leveling up my GWF (harder before the buffs), and those guys are going to be tough to level up, not CWs.
I am not worried about shard and paragon classes because I honestly haven't gotten that far yet. What I am concerned about is that all the low level at wills and encounter abilities I'm dependent on now to out DPS enemies, before they can tear through my hp, are going to take a 30% hit to damage.
Of course at this stage, it will only cost me a few event exclusive companions to ditch the CW and re-roll as Warlock, if it looks fun. But that doesn't mean I don't sympathize with other players who decide to continue with the class.
I also play GWF so I agree that they will have it worse with leveling after the Unstoppable changes. Hopefully the Devs remember people still have to GET to level 60, and stop only "balancing" everything around people who've already reached endgame.
well guys i just started leveling my cw so wanted to ask, dev said overall damage would not change was it meaning for end game or for low level users too ?
You are correct that the casting time plus the cooldown time is the "total" time that the damage must be divided by. However, that is not really what the developers were talking about. They specifically state that they are tweaking things based on "Damage per cast time" and "opportunity cost" where they want the damage of the spell to be proportional to how long it takes to cast. I still can't figure out how that makes any sense when it is the cooldown time (or the time between consecutive casts) that affects the overall DPS.
I you read the dev post I quoted he specifically mentions Cast Time and Cooldown BOTH contributing to the opportunity cost/DPS of a power. He also mentions why they looked at Cast Time first as a way to dial back DPS rather than adding a lot to cooldown or subtracting a lot from raw damage. They have since looked at it again and decided that combat flows better with shorter cast times and instead reduced the raw damage to give the same (reduced) DPS.
DPS is controlled by the total time it takes to apply x amount of damage. It doesn't matter if that time is made up of Cast + Cooldown, all Cast, or all Cooldown. This is what seems to be confusing you. Yes they could reduce all cast times to zero and increase cooldowns to compensate (or the opposite) but it's irrelevant; what they wanted to do was reduce DPS and they had three 'dials' to choose from to do that - they initially chose Cast Time and now it seems they've changed to raw damage instead. The end result is the same.
well guys i just started leveling my cw so wanted to ask, dev said overall damage would not change was it meaning for end game or for low level users too ?
If they said that, they must mean at endgame. If you are committed to the class, level it now before all your starting abilities take a 30% damage nerf.
If you're not in a hurry, wait for more details about the Warlock class.
I see that the devs have listened to feedback regarding casting times, which I find to be awesome. I understand the CWs utility was overboard in Dungeons, but the damage nerf will still destroy us further in PVP. We already have the lowest survivability of all the classes. Please devs run a few battles with the CW vs any other class and see how bad the damage nerf is in PVP (its window licker bad even with Arpen). I simply wish for a GWF or GF to have to think about whether or not they wish to engage a CW 1v1. You may like the idea of shard in PVP but it will no longer be used in such as is.
I you read the dev post I quoted he specifically mentions Cast Time and Cooldown BOTH contributing to the opportunity cost/DPS of a power. He also mentions why they looked at Cast Time first as a way to dial back DPS rather than adding a lot to cooldown or subtracting a lot from raw damage. They have since looked at it again and decided that combat flows better with shorter cast times and instead reduced the raw damage to give the same (reduced) DPS.
DPS is controlled by the total time it takes to apply x amount of damage. It doesn't matter if that time is made up of Cast + Cooldown, all Cast, or all Cooldown. This is what seems to be confusing you. Yes they could reduce all cast times to zero and increase cooldowns to compensate (or the opposite) but it's irrelevant; what they wanted to do was reduce DPS and they had three 'dials' to choose from to do that - they initially chose Cast Time and now it seems they've changed to raw damage instead. The end result is the same.
To elaborate on this a little, there are 2 functions that are very important for balancing powers.
DPS - This is Cast Time + Cooldown, and determines over a long period what powers you should cast as many times as possible.
DPCT - Damage per cast time - This denotes what at any given moment will provide you with the best return for the time you spend casting. Wizards had many spells (Magic Missile, Fanning the Flame, Shard of EA, and Sudden Storm being the worst) that were so high in this category, especially across multiple targets that they always beat out other options. There were even several cases where casting Magic Missile was BETTER than an encounter because it generated more DPCT and thus was a better way to spend those seconds.
What this does is grants you a priority list where you want to cast the most potent spell that is off cooldown at any given instant for best return on your time casting. Players familiar with Global Cooldown driven games will recognize this as "First Come First Serve" casting.
The end result of the changes is that now your powers are far more competitive with each other in their respective situations, and powers can be weighed more evenly on their utility rather than several of them being the best at everything all the time.
It is important to remember that DPCT and DPS are connected, so one does often affect the other, but we strived when making all these changes to keep them much more competitive than they had been previously, so you can now pick from a much wider variety of powers for any given situation.
I'm totally disapointed of these changes. Why?
1. CW have poor defense, to this character base is his power, recovery and life steal points. More damage means more HP and more AP, and this is the only way CW can survive. And what you're planning to do? Take him back his ability to damage his enemies as fast as it was possible so far. Higher launch times means CW is locked for this time and can be attacked, stunned, damaged during this time. It's totally non-sense!
2. CW means Control Wizard. Control? What control? If control powers will be so weak, the only way CW can survive will be use of offense powers. But wait... did I mention above that you're planning to cut them?
3. Please, I'm begging you, just leave the Magic Missile like it is already. Please...
Is your purpose, get all CW players to try new class character by destroying their beloved CW? If anyone read this and is it possible to change your minds about these changes, please, think of them. Are these changes won't destroy CW class? IMHO CW is just perfect. Need player skills to play. And it's sometimes very hard to walk through some tasks. Cutting anything in CW class will kill them all
To elaborate on this a little, there are 2 functions that are very important for balancing powers.
DPS - This is Cast Time + Cooldown, and determines over a long period what powers you should cast as many times as possible.
DPCT - Damage per cast time - This denotes what at any given moment will provide you with the best return for the time you spend casting. Wizards had many spells (Magic Missile, Fanning the Flame, Shard of EA, and Sudden Storm being the worst) that were so high in this category, especially across multiple targets that they always beat out other options. There were even several cases where casting Magic Missile was BETTER than an encounter because it generated more DPCT and thus was a better way to spend those seconds.
What this does is grants you a priority list where you want to cast the most potent spell that is off cooldown at any given instant for best return on your time casting. Players familiar with Global Cooldown driven games will recognize this as "First Come First Serve" casting.
The end result of the changes is that now your powers are far more competitive with each other in their respective situations, and powers can be weighed more evenly on their utility rather than several of them being the best at everything all the time.
It is important to remember that DPCT and DPS are connected, so one does often affect the other, but we strived when making all these changes to keep them much more competitive than they had been previously, so you can now pick from a much wider variety of powers for any given situation.
WHY ISNT THE SHARD BUG FIXED?! ITS STILL SO LAGGY SO WE CANT TEST OUR CWs PROPERLY...
How do you expect us to come with feedback when we cant do anything because of the bugs?
Wait, you mean all these changes only take effect in PvP? All the class's abilities will remain as they are on live, for PvE? Well why didn't someone say so earlier? That's sure a relief to know that the class isn't being backhanded against 90% of the content in the game, simply for the 1 PvP game type that most players have to be paid AD to play.
I mean CW only use those single target powers in PvP so the their nerfs in casting times only affect CW in PvP.
To elaborate on this a little, there are 2 functions that are very important for balancing powers.
DPS - This is Cast Time + Cooldown, and determines over a long period what powers you should cast as many times as possible.
DPCT - Damage per cast time - This denotes what at any given moment will provide you with the best return for the time you spend casting. Wizards had many spells (Magic Missile, Fanning the Flame, Shard of EA, and Sudden Storm being the worst) that were so high in this category, especially across multiple targets that they always beat out other options. There were even several cases where casting Magic Missile was BETTER than an encounter because it generated more DPCT and thus was a better way to spend those seconds.
What this does is grants you a priority list where you want to cast the most potent spell that is off cooldown at any given instant for best return on your time casting. Players familiar with Global Cooldown driven games will recognize this as "First Come First Serve" casting.
The end result of the changes is that now your powers are far more competitive with each other in their respective situations, and powers can be weighed more evenly on their utility rather than several of them being the best at everything all the time.
It is important to remember that DPCT and DPS are connected, so one does often affect the other, but we strived when making all these changes to keep them much more competitive than they had been previously, so you can now pick from a much wider variety of powers for any given situation.
We understand that nerfing casting time does affect DPS. But the problem is, CW don't use those single target powers in PvE and only use them in PvP. So what's the reason of nerfing single target powers' casting times?
That won't help balance DPS in PvE, and would only decrease CW's survivability in PvP.
kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
edited July 2014
I did the several of the 2-3 man IWD HE, and ran the ACT numbers on them:
Feedback:
Nightmare Wizardry doesn't proc often enough to warrant the feat points (If using EotS with it, it increases the proc rate from about 1 per 2-3 man HE to about 5 per for 3 skills points & 5 feats points). Not really worth it. Unfortunately the alternate 2nd Tier Renegade feat is useless since it's tied to Maelstorm of Chaos.
Oppressive Force seem to have an unnaturally low critical hit rate (0-3%, using a 36.9% from Char sheet, not using EotS). On Live with I get about 44% (but that's with an un-nerfed EotS). So is there something wrong?
Without Nightmare Wizardry proc'ing Phantasmal Destruction is also pretty worthless.
Shard bugs make using it very difficult (hanging on terrain, disappearing, ...).
After downloading the patch today Eye of the Storm cooldown is now confirmed 25 seconds and Shard of the Endless Avalache now has a very nice prone time.
BUG: Assailing Force Assailing Force is still not working properly after the patch. It still triggers once then never again.
Feedback: Elemental Empowerment This feat seems painfully underpowered when used on real enemies. It gives an extra 2-3% damage on test dummies, but real enemies die too quickly. Running around the Dwarven Valley killing enemies this feat accounted for 0.4% of my overall damage. With three seconds between damage ticks things are usually dead before any meaningful damage can be applied.
After reading today's preview path notes, I personally am glad to see you do care about players' feedbacks, that some of our single target powers' casting times have been restored.
However, I'm confused by a new adjustment, that their damage have been reduced. That would affect CW's performance in PvP because CW uses single target powers in PvP.
I don't know if this was asked before but I couldn't find it. Is the new version of Bitter Cold increasing all the damage the monster receives or just the damage from the CW?
I have played a CW since the inception.I have spent several 100s of dollars doing it. Am a founder since first closed beta. How can you do a total rework on a class that i have spent so much time and money building. There has to be some sort of compensation, i bought 100s of pets on a class you are now causing to be unusebale and unwanted by parties. PVP? i dont care about pvp, i want the cw to be the cw i built and played for over a year.
DPS - This is Cast Time + Cooldown, and determines over a long period what powers you should cast as many times as possible.
is this utilizing real combat logs, or hypothetical values?
bc they will differ alot on spells like shard, wich dont have their cd triggered on cast.
DPCT - Damage per cast time - This denotes what at any given moment will provide you with the best return for the time you spend casting. Wizards had many spells (Magic Missile, Fanning the Flame, Shard of EA, and Sudden Storm being the worst) that were so high in this category, especially across multiple targets that they always beat out other options. There were even several cases where casting Magic Missile was BETTER than an encounter because it generated more DPCT and thus was a better way to spend those seconds.
shouldnt "at-wills", by definition, be spells who require neither verbals, gestures or materials, in short an actual "spell cast", and therefore be naturally superior in this regard?
It is important to remember that DPCT and DPS are connected, so one does often affect the other, but we strived when making all these changes to keep them much more competitive than they had been previously, so you can now pick from a much wider variety of powers for any given situation.
and heres where no1 gets interesting.
if you use hypothetical values, you wont take any time needed to walk around the shard, have it out but not pushed, to wait for the right moment and meanwhile built up mastery stacks etc, into account.
cooldown starts to tick with the explosion, not the cast.
thats what imo might have caused you to have an "on paper value" way higher than in the actual game.
maybe that led to the awful dmg reduction(3k hits are NOT enough).
i sayd this before: dont let anyone suggest any changes to a class he doesent regulary play!
anyone having more than a couple hours of endgame expirience with the wizard, would have recognized the above stated, long before any changes were done.
Even if it did work, I don't see a place where it would be picked, once every 15 seconds is terrible especially since it only works one one target. Who would want this?
whats with coi btw?
i didnt read anything about debuff, and other than that, there is absolutely no reason to slot it.
old damage, new damage, doesent matter, its negligible anyhow.
so you didnt force some of your crews cw-players to look into the changes yet i assume?
...still...
could any wizard here plx explain why they slotted coi?
apparently the devs didnt get it, and if a couple more persons validate that statement, they might grow an ear:
noone ever slotted conduit of ice for damage, you pick it for the thaum-debuff.
redesigning the feat, without granting the spell an built in debuff, will eliminate its purpose totally.
0
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
whats with coi btw?
i didnt read anything about debuff, and other than that, there is absolutely no reason to slot it.
old damage, new damage, doesent matter, its negligible anyhow.
so you didnt force some of your crews cw-players to look into the changes yet i assume?
...still...
could any wizard here plx explain why they slotted coi?
apparently the devs didnt get it, and if a couple more persons validate that statement, they might grow an ear:
noone ever slotted conduit of ice for damage, you pick it for the thaum-debuff.
redesigning the feat, without granting the spell an built in debuff, will eliminate its purpose totally.
Sadly the only reason to slot it is for a mobile icy terrain using a master of flame. Meaning there's zero benefit to use it as a spellstorm other than the new meta of perma freeze oppressor bullcrap.
Then again, there's no benefit to go spellstorm oppressor when MoF is superior at it....
Comments
Follow the dev tracker; it will save you time from replying to obsolete information.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=8299821&viewfull=1#post8299821
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=8241361&viewfull=1#post8241361
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=8249361&viewfull=1#post8249361
Thank you for speaking out against absurd nerfs. Please be aware that they are not updating the listed changes on page 1, and have announced several revisions that are peppered throughout the thread. Please refer to the updates linked by midnightfang93 above, to update your feedback.
My first character was a control wizard and I made it level 60 in under 2 days solo with VERY few deaths; It was the easiest character I've ever leveled.
He meant imagine it after the proposed changes.
did you take into account that, aside from casting itself, you have to manouver around, push the thing etc?
a "shard rotation" is quite multiple times its raw casttime, and well above casttime+cd.
its not about only "shard rotation"!
It will be fine, CW was the first char i leveled up, before sudden storm and shard could crit and i didn't even have them skilled/used. And it was easier than leveling up my GWF (harder before the buffs), and those guys are going to be tough to level up, not CWs.
Most of the nerfs are justified, the AOE needs a nerf. I laugh everytime i do my CWs dailies because he can just kill a pack of mobs with 1 button press, where my other classes actually require some time.
Debuffing is shifted to warlocks it seems, as for aoe damage? We do not know how much they will do. Maybe more, but i doubt it will be anywhere near what CWs do now.
The single target nerfs are too much though, since CWs have it hard in pvp. We really lack any defensive capability, for a wizard you would expect them to have a selection of defensive spells (blur, mirror image etc) I think its really needed to take another look at shield and give that a few tweaks and give it more usefulness since it is out only protection spell.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
I am not worried about shard and paragon classes because I honestly haven't gotten that far yet. What I am concerned about is that all the low level at wills and encounter abilities I'm dependent on now to out DPS enemies, before they can tear through my hp, are going to take a 30% hit to damage.
Of course at this stage, it will only cost me a few event exclusive companions to ditch the CW and re-roll as Warlock, if it looks fun. But that doesn't mean I don't sympathize with other players who decide to continue with the class.
I also play GWF so I agree that they will have it worse with leveling after the Unstoppable changes. Hopefully the Devs remember people still have to GET to level 60, and stop only "balancing" everything around people who've already reached endgame.
DPS is controlled by the total time it takes to apply x amount of damage. It doesn't matter if that time is made up of Cast + Cooldown, all Cast, or all Cooldown. This is what seems to be confusing you. Yes they could reduce all cast times to zero and increase cooldowns to compensate (or the opposite) but it's irrelevant; what they wanted to do was reduce DPS and they had three 'dials' to choose from to do that - they initially chose Cast Time and now it seems they've changed to raw damage instead. The end result is the same.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
If they said that, they must mean at endgame. If you are committed to the class, level it now before all your starting abilities take a 30% damage nerf.
If you're not in a hurry, wait for more details about the Warlock class.
To elaborate on this a little, there are 2 functions that are very important for balancing powers.
DPS - This is Cast Time + Cooldown, and determines over a long period what powers you should cast as many times as possible.
DPCT - Damage per cast time - This denotes what at any given moment will provide you with the best return for the time you spend casting. Wizards had many spells (Magic Missile, Fanning the Flame, Shard of EA, and Sudden Storm being the worst) that were so high in this category, especially across multiple targets that they always beat out other options. There were even several cases where casting Magic Missile was BETTER than an encounter because it generated more DPCT and thus was a better way to spend those seconds.
What this does is grants you a priority list where you want to cast the most potent spell that is off cooldown at any given instant for best return on your time casting. Players familiar with Global Cooldown driven games will recognize this as "First Come First Serve" casting.
The end result of the changes is that now your powers are far more competitive with each other in their respective situations, and powers can be weighed more evenly on their utility rather than several of them being the best at everything all the time.
It is important to remember that DPCT and DPS are connected, so one does often affect the other, but we strived when making all these changes to keep them much more competitive than they had been previously, so you can now pick from a much wider variety of powers for any given situation.
1. CW have poor defense, to this character base is his power, recovery and life steal points. More damage means more HP and more AP, and this is the only way CW can survive. And what you're planning to do? Take him back his ability to damage his enemies as fast as it was possible so far. Higher launch times means CW is locked for this time and can be attacked, stunned, damaged during this time. It's totally non-sense!
2. CW means Control Wizard. Control? What control? If control powers will be so weak, the only way CW can survive will be use of offense powers. But wait... did I mention above that you're planning to cut them?
3. Please, I'm begging you, just leave the Magic Missile like it is already. Please...
Is your purpose, get all CW players to try new class character by destroying their beloved CW? If anyone read this and is it possible to change your minds about these changes, please, think of them. Are these changes won't destroy CW class? IMHO CW is just perfect. Need player skills to play. And it's sometimes very hard to walk through some tasks. Cutting anything in CW class will kill them all
Sincerely
Worried CW player
Thank you for the reply. I appreciate it.
How do you expect us to come with feedback when we cant do anything because of the bugs?
That won't help balance DPS in PvE, and would only decrease CW's survivability in PvP.
https://www.youtube.com/user/ThePatomalo/videos
Feedback:
BUG: Assailing Force
Assailing Force is still not working properly after the patch. It still triggers once then never again.
Feedback: Elemental Empowerment
This feat seems painfully underpowered when used on real enemies. It gives an extra 2-3% damage on test dummies, but real enemies die too quickly. Running around the Dwarven Valley killing enemies this feat accounted for 0.4% of my overall damage. With three seconds between damage ticks things are usually dead before any meaningful damage can be applied.
However, I'm confused by a new adjustment, that their damage have been reduced. That would affect CW's performance in PvP because CW uses single target powers in PvP.
bc they will differ alot on spells like shard, wich dont have their cd triggered on cast.
shouldnt "at-wills", by definition, be spells who require neither verbals, gestures or materials, in short an actual "spell cast", and therefore be naturally superior in this regard?
and heres where no1 gets interesting.
if you use hypothetical values, you wont take any time needed to walk around the shard, have it out but not pushed, to wait for the right moment and meanwhile built up mastery stacks etc, into account.
cooldown starts to tick with the explosion, not the cast.
thats what imo might have caused you to have an "on paper value" way higher than in the actual game.
maybe that led to the awful dmg reduction(3k hits are NOT enough).
i sayd this before: dont let anyone suggest any changes to a class he doesent regulary play!
anyone having more than a couple hours of endgame expirience with the wizard, would have recognized the above stated, long before any changes were done.
Even if it did work, I don't see a place where it would be picked, once every 15 seconds is terrible especially since it only works one one target. Who would want this?
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
i didnt read anything about debuff, and other than that, there is absolutely no reason to slot it.
old damage, new damage, doesent matter, its negligible anyhow.
so you didnt force some of your crews cw-players to look into the changes yet i assume?
...still...
could any wizard here plx explain why they slotted coi?
apparently the devs didnt get it, and if a couple more persons validate that statement, they might grow an ear:
noone ever slotted conduit of ice for damage, you pick it for the thaum-debuff.
redesigning the feat, without granting the spell an built in debuff, will eliminate its purpose totally.
Sadly the only reason to slot it is for a mobile icy terrain using a master of flame. Meaning there's zero benefit to use it as a spellstorm other than the new meta of perma freeze oppressor bullcrap.
Then again, there's no benefit to go spellstorm oppressor when MoF is superior at it....