Official M16: Paladin Feedback

asterdahl · March 2019

Feedback: Paladin

Greetings adventurers, Asterdahl here! This thread is for providing bug reports and feedback on the upcoming changes to paladin in Module 16. If you haven't already please take a moment to read Noworries' M16: Overview thread.

The most important takeaway in terms of class feedback is: we are still making changes to class powers, both functional and numerical. We wanted to get your hands on the changes sooner than usual. However, as a result, we ask that you realize what you see on preview will change, sometimes dramatically before launch. If you find your perfect build on preview, it may not be the perfect build on live. Powers you feel are very strong, may not stay as strong. We ask for your patience with these changes.

Finally, there are some known issues going into the initial preview build. Particularly in feats, a number of feats may reference powers that are not available when the feat is unlocked, or in some rare cases, reference powers which no longer exist. We have made a number of changes coming out of closed beta, and it is our short term goal to have these feats updated in the near future.

As always, thank you for taking the time to come check things out on preview, we look forward to your feedback!

Formatting Your Feedback and Bugs

For posting feedback and bugs, please follow the following format to ensure your feedback and bugs are seen clearly and processed in a timely manner, thank you!

Type: Bug/Feedback (Please only choose one)
If you are listing a bug please have this text in RED, if you are posting an opinion or feedback please use CYAN. If you are replying to another user's post, asking a question, or just engaging in general discussion, please do not color your posts, general discussion is welcome and we will read all of it, regardless of color! You can use BBCode to color your text:

<font color=cyan>This text will display in cyan.</font>
<font color=red>This text will display in red.</font>

Examples:
Bug: Valorous Strike said that I should lunge towards the target, but I can only use it if the enemy is right next to me.

Feedback: I have a hard time keeping threat in dungeons, I'm using valorous strike and Templar's Wrath but I just can't seem to hold aggro from the rogue assassin in my party on single enemies.

ilithyn · March 2019

Sailing in SOMI and in Chult drains the divinity bar to zero. This bug was around all the way from launch of SOMI and it was annoying then, but with the changes to how the class works it is imperative that it gets fixed now.

majorcharvenak · March 2019

Bug: Channel divinity via tab shows no effects. No increase in divinity.

Update, Disregard. Needed to readjust my brightness to see the effects on the divinity meter. Its there but a little slow.

sundancewanderingwolf · March 2019

I went to attack Beast Attack in the guild hall and bears and wolves now 1 shot me... on TANK *sigh*

asterdahl · March 2019

sundancewanderingwolf said:
I went to attack Beast Attack in the guild hall and bears and wolves now 1 shot me... on TANK *sigh*

Thanks for letting us know. Just to set your mind at ease, that is not a normal experience for any class, especially tanks in Module 16. There are some issues with the way the Stronghold map is scaling players. (Strongholds does some funky scaling things because it is one of the few maps in the game that scales players up as well as down.) Of course, we'll be making sure those kinks are worked out by launch.

Please try playing in any other zone in the meantime!

wintermute · March 2019

Seems like we are being forced into using only the subset of encounter powers that have corresponding feats because we have to choose feats that buff particular encounter powers (i.e. in each of the two choices boosts an encounter in several columns).

asterdahl · March 2019

wintermute#0867 said:
Seems like we are being forced into using only the subset of encounter powers that have corresponding feats because we have to choose feats that buff particular encounter powers (i.e. in each of the two choices boosts an encounter in several columns).

We understand that some players are going to feel this way about the feat design. We want your feat choices to change the way you play from the perspective of what powers you do or do not choose, or how you build your rotation. That being said, usually the powers that don't have feats are the powers that have an obvious and irreplaceable purpose on your bar for their given use.

So we hope that even with the way feats are build, there are plenty of choices for you to make, and powers without feats still make it onto your bars depending on the situation. If it feels like there are a few powers that won't make it onto your bar unless you choose the feat, we feel like that's okay as a way to differentiate two players of the same class who have made different build choices.

Take some time to play around with things, and let us know what you think as it has time to marinate.

anne · March 2019

In comparison to other classes where the feats are only partially about any encounter powers and give more general values, I feel kind of cheated with the choice I have with a paladin in the tank build. Nearly every feat is about an encounter power. It would be nice if you stay more consistent between the single classes regarding the numbers of the feats concerning the encounter powers.

wintermute · March 2019

asterdahl said:
We want your feat choices to change the way you play from the perspective of what powers you do or do not choose, or how you build your rotation. That being said, usually the powers that don't have feats are the powers that have an obvious and irreplaceable purpose on your bar for their given use.

But if I choose those powers that don't have feats then I'm basically wasting 50% of my now very limited selection of feats, when is that ever going to be optimal? If I choose the powers that do have feats then my 'meaningful' choice about my rotation is one power.

asterdahl said:
we feel like that's okay as a way to differentiate two players of the same class

My prediction is: No-one will differentiate, everyone will choose the powers corresponding to the first two feats they've picked. Why can each feat choice not be between a thing which boosts and encounter and a thing which boosts something else? Then there would actually be choices to make.

throfin1975 · March 2019

Regarding feats, I would rather be able to pick X number of feats out of Y rather than 1 of 2 for each grouping. I feel this would allow for a greater sense of customization.

I'm hoping at-wills will do more damage once numbers are tweaked. They seem more like abilities to use while I wait for Smite to come off cooldown.

Lastly, the AoE heal for tank build seems very weak

Thanks! Can't wait to see the final results.

P.S.: Sorry, I tried to change font to cyan, but apparently I couldn't figure it out : (

pitmonster · March 2019

Took my Pally (tank) and my Warlock through the intro after respec'ing them. Both had healer companions. My Pally, whos HP normally never went into the red was bleeding HP as I could not keep my Templar's Wrath up and the healer was not keeping up.

The Warlock (healer) pretty much skated right through with hardly a touch as his essence drain was keeping up with hits and he could kite just fine. PLUS for some reason the SoulWeaver path got Pillar of Power to help protect him while my Pally tank lost Circle of Power... for reasons.

pitmonster · March 2019

Because the feats now are ~1/10th of the numbers from before, ones that boost encounters really limit the swapping out of powers that you might do depending on the content you are doing.

asterdahl · March 2019

wintermute#0867 said:

asterdahl said:
We want your feat choices to change the way you play from the perspective of what powers you do or do not choose, or how you build your rotation. That being said, usually the powers that don't have feats are the powers that have an obvious and irreplaceable purpose on your bar for their given use.
But if I choose those powers that don't have feats then I'm basically wasting 50% of my now very limited selection of feats, when is that ever going to be optimal? If I choose the powers that do have feats then my 'meaningful' choice about my rotation is one power.
asterdahl said:
we feel like that's okay as a way to differentiate two players of the same class
My prediction is: No-one will differentiate, everyone will choose the powers corresponding to the first two feats they've picked. Why can each feat choice not be between a thing which boosts and encounter and a thing which boosts something else? Then there would actually be choices to make.

The problem is how you're defining optimal. If you have scissors, a hammer and a screw driver, and you have a feat choice between making your hammer hit nails in faster, and your screw driver screw in screws faster, and you encounter a piece of paper. Are you feeling like its more optimal to use your hammer to cut the paper because you feated your hammer?

This example is a bit silly, but it succinctly explains what I'm talking about. Just quickly, talking about Justicar, you've got 2 encounter focused choices: smite vs. sacred weapon, divine touch vs. absolution. (I wouldn't consider binding oath vs radiant charge in this argument, because binding oath's feat is clearly a utility choice, and its obvious that you won't always benefit from using it.)

Smite pretty much is always going on your bar for single target fights, its a high damage single-target resource dump that will help you keep a threat lead and deal a lot of damage. Sacred weapon is good for AoE situations, if you pick sacred shield, its also a viable option in single target encounters to improve your survivability.

Regardless of which of those you choose, there are plenty of cases where you would not want either of those powers on your bar, and you'd still be optimal. For instance, if you're dealing with heavy AoE pulls that are doing high damage to you, you're probably going to need templar's wrath or bane to keep aggro, then you'll want absolution for pure mitigation. At this point, you might consider using sacred weapon if you chose the feat, but you may also want divine touch if the healer is struggling to keep you alive, burning light if enemies have powers you want to stun, or you might need to take smite with divine challenger to reclaim stray mobs if you have someone who has a tendency to pull aggro.

These are the kinds of choices we're aiming to create. The feats should add an interesting new choice into the mix, but there are plenty of other non-feated encounter powers, that have and important role in some situations.

asterdahl · March 2019

pitmonster#5684 said:

Took my Pally (tank) and my Warlock through the intro after respec'ing them. Both had healer companions. My Pally, whos HP normally never went into the red was bleeding HP as I could not keep my Templar's Wrath up and the healer was not keeping up.

Templar's wrath is a very different spell than it was pre Module 16. It's mostly for keeping threat in AoE situations, I would try adjusting what powers you are using as a paladin and see if that changes things. I haven't had a lot of trouble soloing as a paladin.

That being said, warlock is a bit too powerful right now, so it doesn't surprise me that things felt very easy as a soulweaver. We'll be making further adjustments.

armagus02 · March 2019

Tanking castle never with the paladin was painful. Didn't even get past the first wave of mobs. Just kept getting one shot. Even with the shield up they still one shot.

Healing with the paladin felt weak. My power reaches about 30k in Temple of Spider and yet I was only healing maybe 1-2k HP per each cure wounds and maybe 3-5k when using encounter powers like Divine Shelter and Divine Touch.

Divinity on the paladin increases very slowly in battle when using the TAB mechanic that is meant to recharge it. It barely moves at all...

I feel pretty sure the above first two experiences have to do with Item Scaling though...it needs to be looked at.

kharkov58 · March 2019

I saw exactly one feat for the Justicar Paragon path that I would want to choose. The cooldowns on encounter powers are all 20 or 29 seconds. Looks like all we get to do is at will powers.

ghoulz66 · March 2019

Think they did the opposite, and made mobs deal more damage than less.

obsidiancran3 · March 2019

At level 7 with the standard issued gear from the quests, I'm hitting for 20-45 damage and being hit for 120 damage. This suggests that there is a problem with the damage or defense of the the OP at this level.

banegrivm · March 2019

As a casual player I no longer like my paladin. I felt sort of meh about it to be honest in the past. The whole "Maces are Iconic" thing really ruined the class fantasy, as we all know, the whole "knight in shining armor" concept (that's the description that you just gave out for the tank spec) is built all around knights who used swords as primary weapons. For that matter in all of D&D only one character that I can think of ever used a blunt weapon and even then it was Tyr's hammer. The whole knight in shining armor mythos is all built on the legends of St. George who rode around on a white horse named Bayard, rescuing fair maidens in distress, while carrying... wait for it... a magic sword called Ascalon that he used to slay dragons with. For that matter, the Holy Avenger in D&D is a sword. Not a mace.

That all being said, hopefully that changes with this update. However also as others have pointed out, the new changes just are not fun. While running around in tank spec I found myself running out of divinity just way too quickly. I felt rather foolish and bored having to just stand there blocking for a while till I got enough divinity up to finish off my opponents.

As a healer I found myself not able to pour out enough DPS. I felt like I was struggling hard in both specs. The class as it stands is just not very fun at all. I was starting to have bad flashbacks to EverQuest and mana regen. As was also mentioned, the feats pigeonhole us into using X amount of encounter powers and at-wills, which just isn't fun. I tried the method you suggested, that some powers were just powerful enough on their own to not need to feats. If that's the case what really is the point of even having feats at all? I tried it going outside the box as was suggested, it doesn't work, it is not fun. I felt as if the paladin class worked its best when abilities were taken that work with the feats, I.E. the feeling of being pigeonholed.

As a casual I'll probably disappear from the game entirely if this update doesn't change.

obsidiancran3 · March 2019

At level 7 I have 3500hp, Divine Touch heals 400 at best. That makes it useless in the face of enemies hitting for 120 or more every time. Further compounding the problem with terrible damage from the At Wills at that level.

asterdahl · March 2019

armagus02 said:
Tanking castle never with the paladin was painful. Didn't even get past the first wave of mobs. Just kept getting one shot. Even with the shield up they still one shot.

Healing with the paladin felt weak. My power reaches about 30k in Temple of Spider and yet I was only healing maybe 1-2k HP per each cure wounds and maybe 3-5k when using encounter powers like Divine Shelter and Divine Touch.

Divinity on the paladin increases very slowly in battle when using the TAB mechanic that is meant to recharge it. It barely moves at all...

I feel pretty sure the above first two experiences have to do with Item Scaling though...it needs to be looked at.

Thanks for reporting this. We will look into the scaling in these areas. I was tanking the new unreleased dungeon, Tomb of the Nine Gods, and Malabog's Castle internally this week and it felt great. Try giving one of those two dungeons a try if you have more time. Let me know if you have a similar experience.

Cure wounds is pretty terrible right now, its not meant to be very good, as we don't want to let any significant healing happen without consuming a resource, and its a free heal, but we're looking at making adjustments. That said, I'm surprised that your Divine Shelter was healing for 3-5k... I assume that was ToS(M) not the leveling ToS?

In terms of divinity regeneration, it is very slow for healers, intentionally, managing the resource is very important and you need to be able to run out. That being said, if your heals are unexpectedly low, running out will happen far, far too often. We've only had our healers run out internally when we make huge mistakes or in very difficult pulls, so we'll look into what is going on with scaling in those areas. Just know that the goal is not for you to be running out in those scenarios.

asterdahl · March 2019

obsidiancran3 said:
At level 7 with the standard issued gear from the quests, I'm hitting for 20-45 damage and being hit for 120 damage. This suggests that there is a problem with the damage or defense of the the OP at this level.

Enemy damage and player damage are not balanced in such a way that this is really an indication of anything. Your at-wills hit very fast, and are generally balanced to be lower than before, with encounters seeing an increase and dailies seeing a significant increase.

Were you having trouble surviving at all?

athena · March 2019

on feats and powers: you have a feat choice on first block and the power for it locked until level 80. This makes no sense whatsoever.

asterdahl · March 2019

athena#9205 said:
on feats and powers: you have a feat choice on first block and the power for it locked until level 80. This makes no sense whatsoever.

asterdahl said:
Finally, there are some known issues going into the initial preview build. Particularly in feats, a number of feats may reference powers that are not available when the feat is unlocked, or in some rare cases, reference powers which no longer exist. We have made a number of changes coming out of closed beta, and it is our short term goal to have these feats updated in the near future.

jambo117 · March 2019

Smite is ramped up to 100 lol

dukeguard · March 2019

Stalwart golden lion companion gonna be bis for pally and also can anyone tell what the holy avenger is like now with the new rank.

obsidiancran3 · March 2019

asterdahl said:

Enemy damage and player damage are not balanced in such a way that this is really an indication of anything. Your at-wills hit very fast, and are generally balanced to be lower than before, with encounters seeing an increase and dailies seeing a significant increase.

Were you having trouble surviving at all?

Yes, it took 3 goes to figure out the timing of everything to beat Karzov.

But having now gone to the Sewers for Nest Egg, and getting Divine Touch heals of 1400 or more (at level 8), I'm wondering if the problem is specifically to do with Karzov's Lair.

nightelven · March 2019

wow lots will leave i fear...

I don't really understand WHY...you are opening this until all bugs Are fixed ? ? If you go to a store and buy something that is broken when you open it... you take it back !!

obsidiancran3 · March 2019

Shield of Faith has lost its VFX somewhere along the line.

nightelven#9514 said:
wow lots will leave i fear... I don't really understand WHY...you are opening this until all bugs Are fixed ? ? If you go to a store and buy something that is broken when you open it... you take it back !!

This is preview, part of the job of preview is to find bugs and fix them before the game goes live.

pitmonster · March 2019

asterdahl said:

pitmonster#5684 said:

Took my Pally (tank) and my Warlock through the intro after respec'ing them. Both had healer companions. My Pally, whos HP normally never went into the red was bleeding HP as I could not keep my Templar's Wrath up and the healer was not keeping up.
Templar's wrath is a very different spell than it was pre Module 16. It's mostly for keeping threat in AoE situations, I would try adjusting what powers you are using as a paladin and see if that changes things. I haven't had a lot of trouble soloing as a paladin.

That being said, warlock is a bit too powerful right now, so it doesn't surprise me that things felt very easy as a soulweaver. We'll be making further adjustments.

ROTFLMAO.... Ah... the problem is I would never take this "tank" to tank anything! I'm sorry but this pally version is garbage. JMHO. I mean this is my main and I now HATE playing it. There is just nothing I like about this new class update.

mortsmash · March 2019

The Justicar's Oath of Protection Mechanic is listed as a 30% DR.
Ignoring any modification from defense or any other source of damage mitigation, the Log should show something like this as the minimum:
[Combat (Self)] XXXXX deals 7000 (10000) Physical Damage to you with XXXXX Attack.
however, I am seeing hits more like this following:
[Combat (Self)] Warrior deals 9519 (10944) Physical Damage to you with Charge.
[Combat (Self)] Sharpshooter deals 20263 (23415) Physical Damage to you with Ranged Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Warrior deals 13316 (15310) Physical Damage to you with Excruciating Stab.

That is more like 15%DR. And this is also ignoring the 20K Defense (??%DR) + Divine Pallisade (10%DR) + Absolution (20%DR).

Official M16: Paladin Feedback

Feedback: Paladin

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