VT artefact set is great, but difficult to get (the crown is difficult to farm and quite expensive). Maybe the LOL set with a cankerous mage for CC buff will be a cheaper alternative. Has anyone the set and can tell us, if the effect is solid? At last the horn artefact drops from the chest in ELOL.
VT artefact set is great, but difficult to get (the crown is difficult to farm and quite expensive). Maybe the LOL set with a cankerous mage for CC buff will be a cheaper alternative. Has anyone the set and can tell us, if the effect is solid? At last the horn artefact drops from the chest in ELOL.
Artifact will obtainable with the new coffer. I think the drop rate will be changed too. So they're cost will drop on AH.
For LoL versus Valindra set, we have to wait for release. As Lostmauth set bonus is way too powerfull actually.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited March 2015
Icy Veins is important because of the synergy with Chilling Presence. Five stacks of chill on encounter cast equals an immediate 40% damage bonus. To me, that outweighs the CD reduction of Spell Twisting.
Icy Veins is important because of the synergy with Chilling Presence. Five stacks of chill on encounter cast equals an immediate 40% damage bonus. To me, that outweighs the CD reduction of Spell Twisting.
don't forget that the bonus from Chilling Presence is doubled on Frozen target.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited March 2015
Yep. So a greater up time on Chill Stacks/Frozen is going to be a bigger DPS increase than a reduced cooldown on powers.
But honestly, I'm not going to do any super-duper theory crafting until I can get full testing parses done at level 70 after the release the final build AND then test those builds out in dungeons. I'm more of a practical "under fire" theorycrafter, versus manipulating spreadsheets. And what can parse really well on a dummy can end up being total dragon HAMSTER in dungeons. You can draw definitive conclusions about how powerful a build is by saying "In a 5 minute parse against training dummies..." It's a starting point, but just start.
I figure it'll take me up to a month to roll out what I would consider the "optimal" Module 6 Renegade build.
Yep. So a greater up time on Chill Stacks/Frozen is going to be a bigger DPS increase than a reduced cooldown on powers.
But honestly, I'm not going to do any super-duper theory crafting until I can get full testing parses done at level 70 after the release the final build AND then test those builds out in dungeons. I'm more of a practical "under fire" theorycrafter, versus manipulating spreadsheets. And what can parse really well on a dummy can end up being total dragon HAMSTER in dungeons. You can draw definitive conclusions about how powerful a build is by saying "In a 5 minute parse against training dummies..." It's a starting point, but just start.
I figure it'll take me up to a month to roll out what I would consider the "optimal" Module 6 Renegade build.
It's difficult to do any real theoricrafting because internal number and formula aren't known.
And what can parse really well on a dummy can end up being total dragon HAMSTER in dungeons.
If you know of someway to test on target dummies, please let me know. A full DPS loadout pretty much instantly kills target dummies now, and then only direct damage (not suddenstorm/IT) work against them. Currently they are only useful for a single ability test, as using even 2 encounters kill them.
Also regarding Spell Twisting, quite frankly it seems broken to me. It lets you get off 4 dailies a minute (the recharge reduction affects artifacts), not to mention if you pop 1 quick at-will between encounters, abilities pretty much don't have any cooldowns anymore.
If that will make up for the crazy damage all mobs seems to do at lvl 73, I'm not sure.
For solo quest's, I think I may be using Shard & probably steal time. In well of the dragons, if you get hit by multiple trash mobs at the same time, I seem to pretty much just die.
Icy Terrain pretty much has to stay in the rotation as it's the only way to freeze mobs...unless you want to single target every mob with Ray of Frost. I might even consider putting IT on tab.
Also...I will have to see how it plays out in the dungeons, but I see absolutely no reason to stack any lifesteal at this point. We still pretty much need 1 - 2 AOE encounters on our bar, and getting lifesteal procs in open zones is almost like hitting the lottery.
Also, I'm curious at this point if we will see Mod 6 anytime soon. It may be months out now.
Sounds like 9 NW developers may have gotten pink slips, and with XBox rollout still pending and dungeons still missing in mod 6 test (haven't even looked back at the new zones - no idea where they stand), it could end up being a while.....or they might do what they normally do & just release partial content. Who knows.
It's difficult to do any real theoricrafting because internal number and formula aren't known.
Well, they're sorta known. I had them all pegged back in Mods 2 and 3. But they like to keep changing them every few months so it's a pain to keep up to date.
The biggest problem with theorycrafting is group dynamics. Say I run a Renegade build where I get a healthy DPS boost from the Combat Advantage in Nightmare Wizardry. That build may test out better than an alternative build on test dummies. However, there are lots of other ways to get combat advantage (positioning, "Mark" from a GF, etc.) so if I'm running with a group that is getting CA in other ways the alternative build may actually perform much better.
Also there are a lot of feats that aren't amenable to test dummy testing. Malevolent Surge grants you more damage after killing an enemy. That won't show up against test dummies, but it will against real ones. Things like Abyss of Chaos are going to have huge dependence on teammates to determine their outgoing damage. Then there are even bigger problems like when you do a single-target DPS test with Chilling Presence. Then try it on a boss and find out it is significantly weaker because, duh, the boss can't be frozen.
I'm with Ironzerg. The real reason theory-crafting is hard in this game isn't the formulas it is because "under fire" conditions can be so much different especially with so much interaction between different classes.
That's a big reason why I'm planning on building a versatile character in Mod 6. Build for control first with Orb of Imposition + Glacial Movement + Icy Veins + Shatter, then if the control is not all that needed because the group I'm in is handling themselves ok I can dial back the control in favor of more damage by unslotting Orb and throwing Storm Spell or Eye of the Storm in there instead.
We'll see. I'm not yet set on one particular build until release either.
From what I see, we will have 2 feat setup depending on situation (PvE).
+ solo, questing, dungeon trash and dungeon boss with a lot of mob => Chilling Presence + *you're favorite feat* (Orb of Imposition, Spell Storm, Critical Conflagration, etc).
+ uncontrollable mob and dungeon boss without mob => *you're best two damage feat*
From my testing, if mob can be controlled, it's not important to add even more control with Orb, timing with Icy Veins is far more important. Casting Steal Time/Shard/*you're preferred control* just when mob unfreeze is more important than the duration of the control.
I'm made a lot of Theoricrafting in WoW on the mage. TC is always restricted to some specific steup (single-target, AoE). It's the main difference between theory and *in-game reality*. But in most case, this theory show good result in this specific situation. And it help extrapolating result for other situation.
Here in NW, doing in-deth TC is very difficult on paper as very little of the hidden formula are know. So all TC have to be done based on number and feedback. Various factor like mob's specific defence/deflection or unreliable Dummy make thinks ever more complicated. In most of the case, it will end-up with things like : this power is bugged, this one doesn't perform as planned, etc.
I haven't tested Spell Twitting but if it affect Artifact cooldown, it should be reported as a bug and should be given enough publicity to ensure that it's resolved before mod6, or in the pipe.
Talking about all the CC stacking...
In WoD the other day, I was playing around with the mobs.
Normal zone trash was clearable by any build (Rene/Thaum/Opp), however the HE's are another story. I spent many deaths trying the HE's over & over, and ended up only finishing 3 HEs. Lifesteal is completely unreliable, and won't keep you alive anymore. Health potions are only worth 10k, so it would take 7 of them to fully fill your health bar from 1hp (66k health with blue 70 gear & Savage def enchants).
The problem is that in the HEs there are mobs that are control immune and hit like freight trains. The CC immune mini dragons were killing me in 2 to 3 hits (with around 66k health).
In addition to the completely CC immune mobs, there are other mobs that have some extreme CC resistance. The shield carrying mobs in the HE's would stayed CCed less than 1 second (freeze/steal time/prone) even in Oppressor build with 3 epic control pets equipped.
Short Story: If your planning on stacking CC duration for open zone HEs, I don't know that it is worth it.
Talking about all the CC stacking...
In WoD the other day, I was playing around with the mobs.
Normal zone trash was clearable by any build (Rene/Thaum/Opp), however the HE's are another story. I spent many deaths trying the HE's over & over, and ended up only finishing 3 HEs. Lifesteal is completely unreliable, and won't keep you alive anymore. Health potions are only worth 10k, so it would take 7 of them to fully fill your health bar from 1hp (66k health with blue 70 gear & Savage def enchants).
The problem is that in the HEs there are mobs that are control immune and hit like freight trains. The CC immune mini dragons were killing me in 2 to 3 hits (with around 66k health).
In addition to the completely CC immune mobs, there are other mobs that have some extreme CC resistance. The shield carrying mobs in the HE's would stayed CCed less than 1 second (freeze/steal time/prone) even in Oppressor build with 3 epic control pets equipped.
Short Story: If your planning on stacking CC duration for open zone HEs, I don't know that it is worth it.
And lets not forget that mobs get cc immunity for a few seconds,after being frozen,to prevent them from getting perma freeze. Truly in Mod 6, control will be weak, and it'll be damage,damage and damage all over again.
Talking about all the CC stacking...
In WoD the other day, I was playing around with the mobs.
Normal zone trash was clearable by any build (Rene/Thaum/Opp), however the HE's are another story. I spent many deaths trying the HE's over & over, and ended up only finishing 3 HEs. Lifesteal is completely unreliable, and won't keep you alive anymore. Health potions are only worth 10k, so it would take 7 of them to fully fill your health bar from 1hp (66k health with blue 70 gear & Savage def enchants).
The problem is that in the HEs there are mobs that are control immune and hit like freight trains. The CC immune mini dragons were killing me in 2 to 3 hits (with around 66k health).
In addition to the completely CC immune mobs, there are other mobs that have some extreme CC resistance. The shield carrying mobs in the HE's would stayed CCed less than 1 second (freeze/steal time/prone) even in Oppressor build with 3 epic control pets equipped.
Short Story: If your planning on stacking CC duration for open zone HEs, I don't know that it is worth it.
I'm starting to agree. With so many of the Oppressor control feats broken there's really not a huge difference in control between Oppressor, Renegade, and Thaumaturge. I don't know that the dropoff in damage and group buffs is worth the minor control boost. Especially when enemies have such high CC resist that the difference is that an enemy is frozen for 1.8 seconds instead of 1.5 seconds. Really, whoop-de-****-do. If Orb of imposition and the stun from Shatter worked properly I may re-evaluate.
And I was just about looking forward to being able to say no to crit based dps builds
From my testing with my MoF, I will pick an all DPS oppressor.
But I still don't know if I go for Spell Twisting (more encounter), Elemental reinforcement (10% to 15% increased damage because of DoT) or Uncertain Allegiance.
I think I will go for Elemental with Lightning enchant so I can go full buff.
I think I will switch back to Renegade with Icy Veins later, with epic gear.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
And I was just about looking forward to being able to say no to crit based dps builds
I'm of the mind that with the reduction in diminishing returns and basically a long run of 400 points per 1% crit, Module 6 is going to make high crit builds even more viable.
Stacking 12k critical strike instead of 12k power? Yes, please!
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I'm starting to agree. With so many of the Oppressor control feats broken there's really not a huge difference in control between Oppressor, Renegade, and Thaumaturge. I don't know that the dropoff in damage and group buffs is worth the minor control boost. Especially when enemies have such high CC resist that the difference is that an enemy is frozen for 1.8 seconds instead of 1.5 seconds. Really, whoop-de-****-do. If Orb of imposition and the stun from Shatter worked properly I may re-evaluate.
I would love to see a viable control-focused CW build. But unfortunately, Cryptic makes us trade a lot of damage for very little practical control increase. So until that changes and Cryptic is serious about giving CW's the ability to meaningfully lock down targets, I'm not worried about anything other than maximizing damage with a side of control.
If you can't control dangerous mobs, the next best thing you can do is kill them as fast as possible
As I like to say, less QQ more pew pew. Nothing will change and the Renegade Build remains fully operational and substantially better post MOD-5 given the tremendous Apren, Damage and Healing buffs that the entire party enjoys.
Put one CANT Mage (Thanks, Norrin) and Dragon's Grip 1/3 and that's about all the additional control you'll even need. The rest goes fully into Stamina gain and positioning. Or, for lazy ones, Shard of endless in combination with Arcane Singularity and Entangling force on Tab.
Ran a CN like that, not a single mob made a substantial hit on me or my pt, which admittedly was way too boring.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited April 2015
For everyone looking for an update, I'll roll one out when I get some more testing down at level 70, now that we're live.
For now, at level 60, put your reset feat points in Uncertain Allegiance, Nightmare Wizardry, Chilling Advantage and Chaos Magic.
As you level to 60, put 5 more into Severe Reaction, then 5 into Icy Veins. That's my pick for the level 70 build.
When I get to level 70, I'm going to do more testing on Icy Veins vs Spell Twisting, so stay tuned.
Question regarding companions. For the augment stone, for you to gain the benefit of the stats do you have to have that certain companion summoned or can i have an active companion summoned and still gain the stat benefits from the augment? Sorry for the **** question, i've only just recently got into this game : D
Just wondering if anyone has weighed up the Lostmauth set for CWs. I know that the stats +2 STR/+2 dex aren't great, but the extra weapon hit on every crit is intriguing - maybe it is more viable for PvP then PvE.
Just thought i'd see if anyone else is considering looking into it? It would obviously need to be worth the -4 CHA (and CC + CA bonus) associated.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited April 2015
I have consider that...it really depends on the magnitude of the bonus. However, my other thought was that if it's significant enough to warrant getting a +2str/dex, then it would probably get nerfed
I have consider that...it really depends on the magnitude of the bonus. However, my other thought was that if it's significant enough to warrant getting a +2str/dex, then it would probably get nerfed
I was thinking the same.
It will only be useful on mob that don't die quickly on crit. But the only mob that are like that are Boss/mini-both, etc and the damage gain won't be that important. And if it is, then it will likely to be nerf.
Unfortunately, the set bonus is more than powerful enough to warrant slotting even if you cannot use strength/dex. In a valindra's tower run with a gwf that had the bonus, lostmauth's proc was his 2nd highest source of damage and he only had a 25% crit rate overall. In ACT the bonus is called Lostmauth's Vengeance. Because it procs on a crit, it will always crit. His average damage was a little over 20k per proc and his highest proc was 66k. Out of 14 million damage over the course of 3 valindra attempts, it was 3 million damage. I think the most striking thing was that his overall crit rate was only 25% and it was still just behind his sure strike damage. On my CW who averages about 60% crit chance overall, it wouldve easily been my highest source of damage if I was wearing the set. All of this is from ACT. Guys, this is basically storm spell as a set bonus with a 100% proc rate. Ill let the more well known theorycrafters digest this information.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited April 2015
Yes, people are talking about how ludicrously OP it is. Which means that it will pretty much FOR SURE get nerfed to deal the kind of damage as the old Black Ice and Imperial sets.
I was thinking on restricting to only 3 points in Icy Veins as I use CoI on tab + IT (for freeze).
Why not putting 2 point in the one just up that increase damage on frozen target for the last 2 points.
Comments
Artifact will obtainable with the new coffer. I think the drop rate will be changed too. So they're cost will drop on AH.
For LoL versus Valindra set, we have to wait for release. As Lostmauth set bonus is way too powerfull actually.
But honestly, I'm not going to do any super-duper theory crafting until I can get full testing parses done at level 70 after the release the final build AND then test those builds out in dungeons. I'm more of a practical "under fire" theorycrafter, versus manipulating spreadsheets. And what can parse really well on a dummy can end up being total dragon HAMSTER in dungeons. You can draw definitive conclusions about how powerful a build is by saying "In a 5 minute parse against training dummies..."
I figure it'll take me up to a month to roll out what I would consider the "optimal" Module 6 Renegade build.
It's difficult to do any real theoricrafting because internal number and formula aren't known.
If you know of someway to test on target dummies, please let me know. A full DPS loadout pretty much instantly kills target dummies now, and then only direct damage (not suddenstorm/IT) work against them. Currently they are only useful for a single ability test, as using even 2 encounters kill them.
Also regarding Spell Twisting, quite frankly it seems broken to me. It lets you get off 4 dailies a minute (the recharge reduction affects artifacts), not to mention if you pop 1 quick at-will between encounters, abilities pretty much don't have any cooldowns anymore.
If that will make up for the crazy damage all mobs seems to do at lvl 73, I'm not sure.
For solo quest's, I think I may be using Shard & probably steal time. In well of the dragons, if you get hit by multiple trash mobs at the same time, I seem to pretty much just die.
Icy Terrain pretty much has to stay in the rotation as it's the only way to freeze mobs...unless you want to single target every mob with Ray of Frost. I might even consider putting IT on tab.
Also...I will have to see how it plays out in the dungeons, but I see absolutely no reason to stack any lifesteal at this point. We still pretty much need 1 - 2 AOE encounters on our bar, and getting lifesteal procs in open zones is almost like hitting the lottery.
Sounds like 9 NW developers may have gotten pink slips, and with XBox rollout still pending and dungeons still missing in mod 6 test (haven't even looked back at the new zones - no idea where they stand), it could end up being a while.....or they might do what they normally do & just release partial content. Who knows.
Well, they're sorta known. I had them all pegged back in Mods 2 and 3. But they like to keep changing them every few months so it's a pain to keep up to date.
The biggest problem with theorycrafting is group dynamics. Say I run a Renegade build where I get a healthy DPS boost from the Combat Advantage in Nightmare Wizardry. That build may test out better than an alternative build on test dummies. However, there are lots of other ways to get combat advantage (positioning, "Mark" from a GF, etc.) so if I'm running with a group that is getting CA in other ways the alternative build may actually perform much better.
Also there are a lot of feats that aren't amenable to test dummy testing. Malevolent Surge grants you more damage after killing an enemy. That won't show up against test dummies, but it will against real ones. Things like Abyss of Chaos are going to have huge dependence on teammates to determine their outgoing damage. Then there are even bigger problems like when you do a single-target DPS test with Chilling Presence. Then try it on a boss and find out it is significantly weaker because, duh, the boss can't be frozen.
I'm with Ironzerg. The real reason theory-crafting is hard in this game isn't the formulas it is because "under fire" conditions can be so much different especially with so much interaction between different classes.
That's a big reason why I'm planning on building a versatile character in Mod 6. Build for control first with Orb of Imposition + Glacial Movement + Icy Veins + Shatter, then if the control is not all that needed because the group I'm in is handling themselves ok I can dial back the control in favor of more damage by unslotting Orb and throwing Storm Spell or Eye of the Storm in there instead.
We'll see. I'm not yet set on one particular build until release either.
+ solo, questing, dungeon trash and dungeon boss with a lot of mob => Chilling Presence + *you're favorite feat* (Orb of Imposition, Spell Storm, Critical Conflagration, etc).
+ uncontrollable mob and dungeon boss without mob => *you're best two damage feat*
From my testing, if mob can be controlled, it's not important to add even more control with Orb, timing with Icy Veins is far more important. Casting Steal Time/Shard/*you're preferred control* just when mob unfreeze is more important than the duration of the control.
I'm made a lot of Theoricrafting in WoW on the mage. TC is always restricted to some specific steup (single-target, AoE). It's the main difference between theory and *in-game reality*. But in most case, this theory show good result in this specific situation. And it help extrapolating result for other situation.
Here in NW, doing in-deth TC is very difficult on paper as very little of the hidden formula are know. So all TC have to be done based on number and feedback. Various factor like mob's specific defence/deflection or unreliable Dummy make thinks ever more complicated. In most of the case, it will end-up with things like : this power is bugged, this one doesn't perform as planned, etc.
I haven't tested Spell Twitting but if it affect Artifact cooldown, it should be reported as a bug and should be given enough publicity to ensure that it's resolved before mod6, or in the pipe.
In WoD the other day, I was playing around with the mobs.
Normal zone trash was clearable by any build (Rene/Thaum/Opp), however the HE's are another story. I spent many deaths trying the HE's over & over, and ended up only finishing 3 HEs. Lifesteal is completely unreliable, and won't keep you alive anymore. Health potions are only worth 10k, so it would take 7 of them to fully fill your health bar from 1hp (66k health with blue 70 gear & Savage def enchants).
The problem is that in the HEs there are mobs that are control immune and hit like freight trains. The CC immune mini dragons were killing me in 2 to 3 hits (with around 66k health).
In addition to the completely CC immune mobs, there are other mobs that have some extreme CC resistance. The shield carrying mobs in the HE's would stayed CCed less than 1 second (freeze/steal time/prone) even in Oppressor build with 3 epic control pets equipped.
Short Story: If your planning on stacking CC duration for open zone HEs, I don't know that it is worth it.
And lets not forget that mobs get cc immunity for a few seconds,after being frozen,to prevent them from getting perma freeze. Truly in Mod 6, control will be weak, and it'll be damage,damage and damage all over again.
I'm starting to agree. With so many of the Oppressor control feats broken there's really not a huge difference in control between Oppressor, Renegade, and Thaumaturge. I don't know that the dropoff in damage and group buffs is worth the minor control boost. Especially when enemies have such high CC resist that the difference is that an enemy is frozen for 1.8 seconds instead of 1.5 seconds. Really, whoop-de-****-do. If Orb of imposition and the stun from Shatter worked properly I may re-evaluate.
But I still don't know if I go for Spell Twisting (more encounter), Elemental reinforcement (10% to 15% increased damage because of DoT) or Uncertain Allegiance.
I think I will go for Elemental with Lightning enchant so I can go full buff.
I think I will switch back to Renegade with Icy Veins later, with epic gear.
I'm of the mind that with the reduction in diminishing returns and basically a long run of 400 points per 1% crit, Module 6 is going to make high crit builds even more viable.
Stacking 12k critical strike instead of 12k power? Yes, please!
I would love to see a viable control-focused CW build. But unfortunately, Cryptic makes us trade a lot of damage for very little practical control increase. So until that changes and Cryptic is serious about giving CW's the ability to meaningfully lock down targets, I'm not worried about anything other than maximizing damage with a side of control.
If you can't control dangerous mobs, the next best thing you can do is kill them as fast as possible
Put one CANT Mage (Thanks, Norrin) and Dragon's Grip 1/3 and that's about all the additional control you'll even need. The rest goes fully into Stamina gain and positioning. Or, for lazy ones, Shard of endless in combination with Arcane Singularity and Entangling force on Tab.
Ran a CN like that, not a single mob made a substantial hit on me or my pt, which admittedly was way too boring.
For now, at level 60, put your reset feat points in Uncertain Allegiance, Nightmare Wizardry, Chilling Advantage and Chaos Magic.
As you level to 60, put 5 more into Severe Reaction, then 5 into Icy Veins. That's my pick for the level 70 build.
When I get to level 70, I'm going to do more testing on Icy Veins vs Spell Twisting, so stay tuned.
Just thought i'd see if anyone else is considering looking into it? It would obviously need to be worth the -4 CHA (and CC + CA bonus) associated.
I was thinking the same.
It will only be useful on mob that don't die quickly on crit. But the only mob that are like that are Boss/mini-both, etc and the damage gain won't be that important. And if it is, then it will likely to be nerf.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Why not putting 2 point in the one just up that increase damage on frozen target for the last 2 points.