Then, overall buff: just bring back the template used by GWF back on mod 3. They (devs) will not need to code a single thing but fixing some bugs (roar's bug and others), improve some other mechanics (Intimidation, Destroyer's captstone to be updated as it is on this mod5 and so ont) and we will have all our deserved buffs at once.
Im not sure if this would even fix us LOL! The old template we didnt get CA+20% damage off Mark. So we would be losing considerable damage.
Plus, being honest, as much as I would love that it would never happen. They will never revert BACK to something and they will never make THIS many sweeping changes 8 days before module. They will make small tweaks and I hope those PRIMARILY are:
[*]Great Weapon Fighter
Class Features: Destroyer - Destroyer stacks will now last as long as you are in combat. Leaving combat removes all stacks.
Class Features: Weapon Master stacks will now last as long as you are in combat. Leaving combat removes all stacks.
Determination Gain: All GWFs now build determination on both HP lost and damage dealt. This no longer is restricted to Destroyers.
Temporary Health: Temp HP granted off Unstoppable is now 4% temp HP each time you are struck in unstoppable. This cannot proc more than once every .5 seconds. Healing Depression is still in effect.
Intimidation: Now deals 100% Weapon damage every second for 15 seconds. Does not stack.
Stamina Gain: Base Stamina gain increase ~20%.
Destroyers Purpose: Stacks now are applied off any attack and have an uptime of 10 seconds. Additional stacks reset the total stack duration.
Istigator's Vengeance: Stacks now last as long as you are in combat. Leaving will now remove all stacks.
and GFs just got +20% dmg to all powers why they couldnt do the same to GWFs in the 1st place?
anyway the real problem is our survaviblity atm a class thats forced to facetank just simply cannot do it.
GWF as a class has design flaw in m6 we cant deal dmg cause we cant take dmg.
To your first point - then they would have to nerf something in destroyer or dest GWFs will be monsters in PVE, given that fact, and that we are already NOT in a good spot for PVP Id rather have them just give universal buffs to our REAL issue that you described as well:
Survivability is horrible. Also to your point, we cant deal damage because we cant take damage and we cant even AVOID damage if we want either - like classes that can dodge.
Maybe they need to make DODGE no longer "immune" but just "increased DR" like GWF has - make it fair. See how much QQ happens because classes would be more "squishy". How is that for fair LOL!
this will not be done, but dont worth trying... make the "shift" of gwf a dodge move (can be the rogue animation) and turn "jump" the sprint (need jump? Use mleap).
the rest:
buff the general damage for 10%
powers up in 25% of damage per rank (instead of 10)... our damage comes from the specialization.
Disciple of War: x% of your power is arp.
destroyer paragon:during unstoppable, your encounter do +30% of damage. point
agree to ayroux; all trees receive determination dealing damage.
up the class features for 6 secs.
now you have a solid and dinamic "non faceroll" class...
Well I hope the DEVs take all this feedback seriously, you know its true when the feedback thread as the MOST number of repsonses OVER the new class, and ontop of that you see posts like this in OTHER classes feedback as well as the AMA reddit thread....
i don´t know and don´t understand it either, but probably there is an other "bigger plans" to make a class in one mod less attractive and boost it in the next mod?
so in this scenario next class will be the GWF, than probably warlock, since GWF is more or less on the bottom of all classes, like a phoenix from the ashes
Classes
i would ask why GWF class was nerfed to the ground and then refused by devs to be brought back on other classes lvls.
I spoke to Panderus about GWfs during the Friday PVP event, he says their tests have shown GWFs to be about the same as everyone else.
I treid to respectfully disagree with him, however it didnt seem like he trusted my feedback, discounting it saying that most people have not tested lvl 70 pvp yet.
I would say that based on my experience since BETA, its pretty easy to see the state of GWFs without testing. Now that I have tested lvl 70 PVP on my GWF, its EVEN MORE apparent that we are the weaklings of PVP.
GFs can block for 20-30 seconds + have massive group benefits, whittle your HP down as you cannot damage them.
DCs - literally unkillable for a GWF. We literally deal 0 damage to them.
TRs - cant catch them, SEd for 60-70k+ with no way to avoid it...
Need I go on?
I am offering my help to help BALANCE the class rather than continue down the path of duct-tape and bandages that we keep doing module after module.
To FIX the class you cannnot put off changes and you cannot do SWEEPING MAJOR changes but small MINOR ones.
Have they really said that GWF is the same level as others...
my 14.6k rogue at 60 (not using plaguefire or flaming) can outdps my 20.2k GWF (both the level 60, and the level 70 version wearing full level 70 purple gear and a pure vorpal) by almost double his damage for the 60, and moderately higher damage than the level 70. This was tested over 1 minute of combat on a training dummy. I can re-do this test and post combat damage logs if required and probably still get quite similar results.
The point Ayroux makes about SE is very true, the DR from sprint doesnt help here and it don't have an actual dodge mechanic.
How is this "classes on the same level" You might say "oh but GWF is tankier" But the truth there is we aren't, We may have higher DR / defence, but this doesnt matter when in PvP a lot of high damage sources ignore DR and deflect , also at 70 the scaling on our DR and deflect is shocking and we have under 30% dr even with higher defence levels like 6k and above. our feats that Address effectiveness of AC and defence need to be increased, as does our hp pool / temp hp.
There is so much weak about our class in both PvE and PvP at the moment, and It feels like we're basically being given up on.
I'm also concerned about the new pvp at 70. there is only 2 PvP sets for 70 that provide tenacity. and one of them costs ~80,000 glory, the other is at lest 2-3 months of farming IWD. how would a NEW player or "free" player manage to farm this without suffering flaming and extremely low returns (remember if someone gets under a set number of points they dont even get glory.)
At 60 we had 3 tiers of PVP gear, so you could buy the lower tier, (even buy it in AH) then slowly farm glory up to the new stuff. they cant do that at 70 and as such would be entering in with PvE gear on and not benefit from the tenacity ARpen resist and Damage resistance.
We already know that sometimes PvP players can be quite "toxic" when it comes to undergeared people and this definitely wouldn't help that, though that's probably going to happen regardless
I spoke to Panderus about GWfs during the Friday PVP event, he says their tests have shown GWFs to be about the same as everyone else.
I treid to respectfully disagree with him, however it didnt seem like he trusted my feedback, discounting it saying that most people have not tested lvl 70 pvp yet.
really hard to believe they test stuff. with all the bugs in preview that goes live, how are we gonna take panderus' word that he tests stuff?
You can't take him seriously. 'Same as everyone else' means also 'same as TR'. Blatantly false. Time to change their 'tests'? And actually try to play the game? They failed greatly at balancing classes so far for 5 full modules. And they don't trust our feedback? Are you serious...lol...
Feedback: unstoppable
The class mechanic is useless for survivability. Too much DPS going right through DR. Turn it to deflect and deflect severity. My 11k HR is tankier than a 18k GWF. Determination gain nerf was enough. Buff unstoppable back to being a good survivability tool and respect its name. The mechanic is far behind that of other classes.
after the curves, i dont believe more in minor changes. and this response of dev just shows that they really dont have martial (game) culture to understand a single feedback of this thread.
sad read that. really sad. you can see why some trolls have destroyed this game so much.
You can't take him seriously. 'Same as everyone else' means also 'same as TR'. Blatantly false. Time to change their 'tests'? And actually try to play the game? They failed greatly at balancing classes so far for 5 full modules. And they don't trust our feedback? Are you serious...lol...
Feedback: unstoppable
The class mechanic is useless for survivability. Too much DPS going right through DR. Turn it to deflect and deflect severity. My 11k HR is tankier than a 18k GWF. Determination gain nerf was enough. Buff unstoppable back to being a good survivability tool and respect its name. The mechanic is far behind that of other classes.
What if Unstoppable AND "sprint" instead of granting ANY DR just gave us 50-100% Deflect chance?
In a sense you "deflect all blows" etc etc.
You wouldnt even REALLY need any severity TBH, if we can get 30% DR, that would take 10,000 damage down to 7k then deflected down to 3,500 Damage for an "equiv" of 65% DR. Then it could be mitigated down by tenacity ETC for even more.
If a TR gets 100% critical in Stealth, I dont see why GWF cant achieve 100% deflect in unstoppable or in sprint.
I agree with this, my ONLY reservation would be the boon "Fey Thistle" because that would turn us into deflect monsters, but I do like the idea MUCH better than DR TBH.
This wouldnt also affect things like SE/Piercing damage tho, which is another issue...
What if Unstoppable AND "sprint" instead of granting ANY DR just gave us 50-100% Deflect chance?
In a sense you "deflect all blows" etc etc.
You wouldnt even REALLY need any severity TBH, if we can get 30% DR, that would take 10,000 damage down to 7k then deflected down to 3,500 Damage for an "equiv" of 65% DR. Then it could be mitigated down by tenacity ETC for even more.
If a TR gets 100% critical in Stealth, I dont see why GWF cant achieve 100% deflect in unstoppable or in sprint.
I agree with this, my ONLY reservation would be the boon "Fey Thistle" because that would turn us into deflect monsters, but I do like the idea MUCH better than DR TBH.
This wouldnt also affect things like SE/Piercing damage tho, which is another issue...
Fey thistle would be strong and all. but people don't HAVE to attack us while we are unstoppable, if anything unstoppable should be when attacking us is a bad idea. like how its hard to attack rogues when they are stealthed, and how when GF is blocking they take 80% less damage. they can just kite and then start afterwards. also ITC gives 100% deflect as does the HR daily. Plus piercing damage would still hit through it so we wouldnt be unkillable.
I actually REALLY like this idea. it definitely helps our survivability inside unstoppable. we'd still be squishy outside though. it also makes Fey thistle kind of a Required boon for us. we should have an actual feat that reflects some damage whenever we deflect to go with this, or a class feature that does this.
This also goes with the idea that GWF is about DR AND DEFLECT (which are the dominant stats on our defensive gear). as we have bravery + another feature to further make our deflect stronger, and Sentinel can be a Deflect/DR hybrid tank that deals damage on deflects.
What would sentinel capstone do though instead of raising DR from unstoppable? or would instead unstoppable give no dr but just flat 100% deflect and CC immune for 4-8 seconds, and the sentinel capstone makes it add DR / increase temp HP gain? any ideas here? I feel this is something that could turn us around from a survivability standpoint.
What would sentinel capstone do though instead of raising DR from unstoppable? or would instead unstoppable give no dr but just flat 100% deflect and CC immune for 4-8 seconds, and the sentinel capstone makes it add DR / increase temp HP gain? any ideas here? I feel this is something that could turn us around from a survivability standpoint.
Well the Sentinel Capstone could instead give +25% Deflect Severity.
This would make all GWFs not as "tanky" per-se however utilize deflect REALLY well. Unstoppable+Sprint would grant 100% deflect chance, Sentinel Capstone would give an extra +25% Deflect Severity.
The only thing that makes me nervous is our low DR, however I think this could be a very interesting re-work. This would also need to be in conjunction with the other changes:
1) Stacking buffs
2) temp HP increase
3) Stamina gain
4) determination gain
5) Intimidation
|NOW 6) Unstoppable+Sprint changed to 100% deflect chance.
ALL of these things would make me MUCH more happy for module 6 rather than VERY hesitant and leery about my future in the game, not that I would quit at all, but I have been very unmotivated to pvp recently because when I do I literally get 1 shot by TRs. I reflect back module 1 when any class could compete with any class - to an extent.
Now it seems our class isnt even given the tools to compete 1v1 and the excuse we get is its not balanced around 1v1s. Well thats great and all but its not even balanced 5v5 of team play because if it is... Whats the roll of the GWF - the target?
I really wish the DEVs would listen to all this feedback. The players that are sticking with GWF still have faith, however the players that are still here are not the 13 year olds looking for a god-like class. We just want a viable one.....
Well the Sentinel Capstone could instead give +25% Deflect Severity.
This would make all GWFs not as "tanky" per-se however utilize deflect REALLY well. Unstoppable+Sprint would grant 100% deflect chance, Sentinel Capstone would give an extra +25% Deflect Severity.
The only thing that makes me nervous is our low DR, however I think this could be a very interesting re-work. This would also need to be in conjunction with the other changes:
1) Stacking buffs
2) temp HP increase
3) Stamina gain
4) determination gain
5) Intimidation
|NOW 6) Unstoppable+Sprint changed to 100% deflect chance.
ALL of these things would make me MUCH more happy for module 6 rather than VERY hesitant and leery about my future in the game, not that I would quit at all, but I have been very unmotivated to pvp recently because when I do I literally get 1 shot by TRs. I reflect back module 1 when any class could compete with any class - to an extent.
Now it seems our class isnt even given the tools to compete 1v1 and the excuse we get is its not balanced around 1v1s. Well thats great and all but its not even balanced 5v5 of team play because if it is... Whats the roll of the GWF - the target?
I really wish the DEVs would listen to all this feedback. The players that are sticking with GWF still have faith, however the players that are still here are not the 13 year olds looking for a god-like class. We just want a viable one.....
Its a really cool mechanic because it gives us our own unique method of tanking, We have the GWF as the hard DR tank, the paladin as the sustain healing tank, and GWF as more of a Deflect / agile offtank, makes our role of taking adds more useful and gives us better solo potential as well as group potential.
they could at least try it. I mean what is there really too lose if its tried via the preview server, if we suddenly become unkillable demigods at 70, then we know its too strong, While if the feedback from GWF comes back as positive, and other classes dont raise a shocking storm about the change, then suddenly all the GWF players have a change they're really happy about.
(I wouldnt take results from 60 as seriously as results from 70 as most people who pvp GWF are in BiS 20-25k gs at 60 so naturally would be a lot stronger than the more average <15k average people )
really hard to believe they test stuff. with all the bugs in preview that goes live, how are we gonna take panderus' word that he tests stuff?
They are operating a "free" game with a dwindling income so what do you expect? Quality development needs money
GWF Sentinel - there should be a trade-off, go Destroyer do great damage, go Sentinel lose the damage but become nigh impossible to kill. This is missing. Right now on Preview the Sentinel is not much tougher than a Destroyer with much less damage
Grand Fissure - this top level ability is worthless with the damage reduction it received from the last Patch. Way to give us something nice only to take it away and thats even before it hit Live
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
FEEDBACK :
STR : stamina regen / dot resist give you trice more than it gaved you before.
Temporary hitpoints from unstopable should be based on maximum hitpoints and it should grant 20-30% of Max HP that isn't affected by HealingDepression and it should persists even after the unstopable ends.
Stamina should be a little more responsive with the animation.
buff the base damage of all encounters at lvl 70 by atleast 40%.
FeedBack sentinel:
If you only keep the Damage bonus as amplifier, than increase the base damage of intimidation up to 250% of weapon damage = out of 2100 weapon damage its a base damage of 5000 with only damage bonus as amplifier (no mark, no cba, no armor pen, exactly as it is right now on the PTR).
Come and get it and Daring should should have 2 seconds shorter cooldown, and this 2 encounters should buff the allies too.
feedback destroyer:
Destroyer now gives you 1 stack / enemy that is in a 50' radius . Additionally each stack of Destroyer grants you .7/1.4/2.8/3.5% bonus damage per stack. And a 75% out of weapon damage as Crushing damage , that ignores all forms of immunity,defense etc. on every hit.
Unfettered strikes: when your stamina decreases your run speed is increased by 14/188/22/26/30%.
feedback instigator:
- nimble runner should give up to 20% more deflect chance,
- capstone should grant 35-50% dmg resistance while in unstopable. The dmg bonus should remain the same
Mighty leap DROP RADIUS should be bigger, increase its AREA DAMAGE.
increase mightyleap and not so fast base damage by 50%
FEEDBACK :
STR : stamina regen / dot resist give you trice more than it gaved you before.
Temporary hitpoints from unstopable should be based on maximum hitpoints and it should grant 20-30% of Max HP that isn't affected by HealingDepression and it should persists even after the unstopable ends.
Stamina should be a little more responsive with the animation.
buff the base damage of all encounters at lvl 70 by atleast 40%.
Strength should be changed to: 2% Damage and 2% Stamina Regen. This helps our "base" damage as well as stamina regen issues.
Temp HP - I agree should be AROUND the 15-30% NET (after Healing Depression) however I dont like making it 30-60% for PVE purposes because that would be VERY overpowered. So in order to GET 15-30% NET, this is where we need something like:
4% Temp HP Per second (NOT affected by Healing depression) OR 4% temp HP each time you are struck (with a .5sec ICD AND this could be affected by healing depression.
This would give us 16%-32% on the first, and a POSSIBLE 16%-32% with the second (if struck every .5seconds for the duration of unstoppable).
I am not opposed to an increase of encounters, but TBH, id rather see an increase in damage of our at wills. I think STR = 2% damage will already give most GWFs a 15%+ damage boost there as well as a 15%+ stamina regen increase.
If you only keep the Damage bonus as amplifier, than increase the base damage of intimidation up to 250% of weapon damage = out of 2100 weapon damage its a base damage of 5000 with only damage bonus as amplifier (no mark, no cba, no armor pen, exactly as it is right now on the PTR).
Come and get it and Daring should should have 2 seconds shorter cooldown, and this 2 encounters should buff the allies too.
Personally I think Intim DOES need to be buffed but I would rather not have entire builds revolve around this one mechanic (like we have on LIVE). Id much rather see this turn into a "fire of the gods" like ability. This would remove the need to use BOTH CAGI+DS and allow you to only use 1 of them, it would also significantly buff the DPS of this feat without making it uber bursty. Giving it 100% weapon damage every second for 15 seconds, thats alot of damage for us GWFs.
feedback destroyer:
Destroyer now gives you 1 stack / enemy that is in a 50' radius . Additionally each stack of Destroyer grants you .7/1.4/2.8/3.5% bonus damage per stack. And a 75% out of weapon damage as Crushing damage , that ignores all forms of immunity,defense etc. on every hit.
Unfettered strikes: when your stamina decreases your run speed is increased by 14/188/22/26/30%.
Very much dislike this. This makes it not very good in 1v1 scenarios. The only issue this feat even has is that in PVP its not very good. In PVE its easy to attack 3+ targets and keep the bonus up. You nearly NEVER attack 3+ targets in PVP lets alone the small chance to gain a stack off any attack combined with the uptime of the stacks is VERY bad.
All this feat needs is a significant increase in "uptime". I would even prefer a system of "in combat" versus "out of combat" which triggers how long stacks last. If we build stacks within an "encounter" as long as we stay IN combat we retain our stacks.
Unfettered Strikes, I dont dislike how it works now, however the only "issue" is that when you cant hit a target (like TR) it really doesnt give you much ability to do anything. Not sure if there is a good fix for this, maybe a BETTER option is something like "each time you are struck gain 5/10/15/20/25% movement for 4 seconds" - And remove the stacking. Thus if a TR damages you or anyone for that matter you gain significant movement.
feedback instigator:
- nimble runner should give up to 20% more deflect chance,
- capstone should grant 35-50% dmg resistance while in unstopable. The dmg bonus should remain the same
Mighty leap DROP RADIUS should be bigger, increase its AREA DAMAGE.
increase mightyleap and not so fast base damage by 50%
Nimble Runner - I agree needs a boost. Hopefully they consider sprint+Unstoppable instead of DR granting 100% deflect chance and then Nimble RUnner COULD instead give and extra +20% deflect severity during sprint. Also I would think Nimble Runner to increase your stamina gain somehow as well.
Capstone "stack" duration needs to be bumped up to 8-10 seconds of not getting hit.
Allied Opportunity: Should increase the damage of Mighty Leap and NSF by 50% Mighty Leap and NSF should now STUN targets for .2/.4/.6/.8/1 Second.
0
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
Feedback warriors of NW
Pls increase the DR from AC at least x2 for all heavy plate users this is total unfair .
I am oneshooted from WotD dragon and CW can tank it frontal + he have dodge.
Its total unbalanced in the pve way.
So CW can eat up 100 k dmg and stil have 74k hp left GWF can have 100 k hp but he cant eat 100k dmg they only mignate 28k dmg and they almost die from 1 hit or better they die from 1 hit.
I will show some pic from GWF (in unstoppable) oneshooted by Rogrotus with maxed def gear.
After prev is up agan.
Also i will show some pic from wrong weapon dmg of GWFs if they enter in lvl 70 area other classes have this not so player give falsh feedback if they think this is GWFs true dmg. The point is if i enter in trade of blades i have normal weapon dmg so i can give true feedback about GWF true dmg but if i enter lvl 70 area i will have boosted weapon dmg so i will give incorrect feedback about GWFs dmg.
feedback : for deflect chance , i dont think it is a good idea of having deflect chance increased on unstopable, even thou i wish too, but this will make it immortal imo, like the TRs are for example with ITC. but i do agree with deflect severity being increased to 75% , the normal base.
and if they increase at lvl 70 the base damage of the encounters a nerf of focused destroyer* with the stack system wont affect too much imo, and that "piercing damage" will make the GWF destro viable in PVP .
feedback : for deflect chance , i dont think it is a good idea of having deflect chance increased on unstopable, even thou i wish too, but this will make it immortal imo, like the TRs are for example with ITC. but i do agree with deflect severity being increased to 75% , the normal base.
and if they increase at lvl 70 the base damage of the encounters a nerf of destroyer purpose with the stack system wont affect too much imo, and that "piercing damage" will make the GWF destro viable in PVP .
I dont think it'd make us immortal, Piercing damage would still be undeflectable, and although it would be less overall damage we'd still take a fair bit. remember this is only in unstoppable (4-8 seconds Lifetime) and potentially sprint (which takes so long to recharge we'd be getting it for .5-1 second at a time every 4-5 seconds at the absolute MAX if we kept spamming it)
I do agree with changing our reliance on stacks, whether it be Ayroux's suggestion of them lasting till end of combat, or another, As well as changing destroyers capstone to be a Flat damage increase in unstoppable (not reliant on stacks) so we actually get the increased damage when it matters most (when we are attacking faster)
I noticed recently that Guardian figther Bull Charge can go up in the air also (so knock people on the high ground in one of the PVP maps off the pillars). We NEED Targeted CC like this. I swear half of our problem with damage is that we cant catch people. the other half is that our damage/ attack speed outside unstoppable / without stacks that cant be maintained is shockingly low.
Seriously. put a GWF with set gear, against every other class with a same level of gear. have players of around the same skill play them, and look at the results. the GWF wont beat any other class. (by same level of skill I assume people who dont just stand next to each other trying to spam skills, I'm talking about a fight involving movement, dodging, etc.) We can be outdamaged by a HEALER, and the only class that I can see not outdpsing us (paladin) can heal so hard we cant kill them anyway.
Also, test the damage output of the class on a training dummy, compared to the damage output of the other "DPS" classes with them all wearing like gear.we'll be at the lowest there also. If I had a 70 of each class I'd do this myself.
That's the reason why i think CW feedback on GWF is quite toxic most of the time, like the one who posted lately saying "i've done few PvE encounters with GWFs and they are fine". It's superficial feedback from someone who does not know how the class works, and is the reason why GWF class got so many wrong feedback even after module 4, such as "i've met 20k intimidation sentinel in PvP with my 15k CW, GWF is not weak it's OP!!!".
Talking about PvP:
- I agree with determination coming from damage dealt or being built up at a slow, steady rate when GWFs enters combat. Must be a little addition to the determination gain from damage taken (main source of determination) and class-wide, not just for destroyer. Reason: to make out mechanic a bit less depending on what the enemy does. No other class has its class mechanic based on how the enemy plays. Or, if so, at least make it a more powerful class mechanic the way unstoppable was. Explanation: old unstoppable in, say, module 3, could be "tamed" with focused CC and burst DPS. Was truly "unstoppable" if the enemy was spamming puny at-wills. Only problem was the fast determination gain. Right now, with current determination gain, it would be easy to have the time to CC-DPS focus GWFs between unstoppables. But the mechanic itself must grant the GWF what the name says: the warrior must take little damage and resist CC for the entire duration of unstoppable (4-8 seconds). Considering with focused DPS right now a GWF, even a sentinel, can go "unstoppable" only a couple of times in a fight, it would be balanced. So buff unstoppable the way you want but it should work this way for all paths.
- Instigator should also have smalldetermination gain buffed from damage taken WHILE SPRINTING.
- Destroyer should be able to gain a bit of determination during unstoppable when dealing damage
- Sentinel should get a further temporary HP buff from unstoppable to boost survivability/ tankiness/ damage-absorbing capability
- Stacks should stay as long as the GWF is in combat. So you build them at the start, then you don't have to constantly refresh them. Fair enough.
- Since intimidation burst is gone, Sentinel should get buffed Restoring Strike damage to increase burst
- Change stuns into dazes and heavy slows. Reason: stuns are deflected and nullified most of the time. Dazes would prevent enemies from rolling/ teleporting. Hard slows should work the same way as TR encounter that heavily reduces your mobility and prevents you from shifting away. Reason: GWF relies on mobility. So it makes sense if GWF CC would work decreasing mobility rather than shutting down the enemy completely, allowing the GWF to get in melee range more easily to deal damage.
- Change IBS: make it like savage advance, with first hit closing gap/ prone the enemy, and then the execution move. So it does not rely on a CC encounter to land first.
GWF class rework:
- Here's my thought: GWF class should not have ranged encounters. Such as FLS or hidden daggers exc... How it should work:
1) Increase stamina regeneration and stamina overall by A LOT. Change sprint CC immunity in 50% CC duration reduction and grant slow effects immunity if hit while sprinting. IF unstoppable is buffed back to being "unstoppable" (see above) AND determination gain is buffed (see above), it should be balanced, allowing other classes to still CC the GWF a bit in between unstoppables. Make the GWF able to chase ANY opponent and close gaps fast
2) Add a more GWF-fitting AoE encounter in place of hidden daggers
3) add the dazes/ slows effects from above
Now GWFs would not hit from range BUT be able to have much more mobility and gap-closing ability to get in melee range, while being able to hit enemies with some encounters that would actually limit their mobility, making it easier for GWFs to get in melee range if not dodged.
I think for PvP changes in roughly this direction would rework the class allowing GWFs to have tools to counter the enemies while not making them OP, considering the DPS burst TRs, HRs, CWs eand other classes in general are able to pull out to take GWFs down in between unstoppable.
Would overall turn a vs GWF fight in a more balanced burst-defend/kite-burst. With no ranged CC would be easier to kite from one side, but from the other GWFs would sprint a lot more, being able to chase more and "outrun" the enemy, while also tanking more with new unstoppable.
If you focus a GWF during unstoppable you are punished.
If the GWF can time sprint or you hit them during sprint, GWFs can "mitigate" CC and chase you better
If you can CC a GWF out of unstoppable and sprint he is heavily punished (full CC and full DPS burst).
To me, would be fair if stamina/ stamina gain is balanced well to be not too low and not too much. Less pressure from ranged CC for the other classes but more tools for GWF to close the gap and also defend through sprint, while the unstoppable class mechanic allows for "burst" tank effectively and scales with how the enemy fights: smart play is rewarded, mindless pew-pew spam is punished.
Id prefer we first balance the class out. Cmon, you guys BOTH know they are not even remotely thinking about this especially this module. IF this were to happen it would be when they add a 3rd option, which would just add not remove IV.
Id rather they give us better encounter options - for instance:
"Punishing Charge" - Reworked to a "Bull Charge" Like mechanic. Make the encounter only usable with a target, make it a significantly increased distance (30-50'), make it STUN the target when you hit them. And make it a BASE CD of around 10 seconds (which would put it around 7-8 with recovery etc)
Now GWFs have a good mechanic like GFs to close the gap, allowing them to use sprint more for defensive options rather than feeling they need it to CATCH targets.
If you then add "Mark" to Flourish, NOW SM is actually useful with both a gap closer and a strong encounter that Marks.
All of this still wont fix many of the other issues: 1) Temp HP - not enough with HD, Based on Damage Boosts which is bad.
2) Stacking - this is the biggest issue with GWFs atm. With: Weapon Master, Destroyer, Destroyers Purpose, Instagator Capstone.
3) Determination Gain - Needs to be BOTH based on damage taken and SOMETHING the GWF can do to gain determinaton - not solely based on what your enemies do.
4) Stamina Gain - even increasing Strength to provide 2% Stamina gain for each point (and also 2% damage as well) would be a significant improvement, and combined with a punishing Charge rework the class would be in a solid spot.
I also liked the other ideas in this thread to: 1) Unstoppable/Sprint instead of DR grant 100% deflect chance
2) Sentinel Aegis - instead of 20% more defense gives 25% more deflect severity.
3) Intimidation - Copy Fire of the Gods, Paste onto Intimidation Feat however only difference is it still procs off CAGI/DS rather than crits.
All of the above do many things and would make the class MUCH more desirable to play both in PVE and PVP.
I don't know, man, maybe in pvp this class is that bad, I don't pvp in this game. But in pve content my only concerns (as sentinel) were lack of threat generation and lack of hard taunts. First is fixed in next module (I hope), second well maybe someday... I'm not a pro gwf expert, but never had real problems with damage mitigation, temp hp and all that. Though any buffs are good and welcomed!
I don't know, man, maybe in pvp this class is that bad, I don't pvp in this game. But in pve content my only concerns (as sentinel) were lack of threat generation and lack of hard taunts. First is fixed in next module (I hope), second well maybe someday... I'm not a pro gwf expert, but never had real problems with damage mitigation, temp hp and all that. Though any buffs are good and welcomed!
I think this is precisely the issue and I wrote a detailed post about this pages back. Maybe it was removed.
Things like Temp HP will not be noticed in PVE because PVE does not have healing depression. You also - MOST of the time will be playing PVE content with a healer, have the ability to use more than 1 potion (I have tons of stone of health that I use when low) and also PVE mobs do not have damage that bypasses ALL our DR.
In PVP you get 1/2 the Temp HP, because of the way domination is played you probably dont have a pocket healer (this is turning into how we WILL have to play PVP, which well just end up with noone premade Quing with a GWf since you can just take a CW instead to spit out more DPS, have more control and not be a s squishy - or a GF which provides countless party utility.) You also have damage sources that bypass our DR so things like Sprint or Unstoppable make zero difference where as in PVE you can feel confident if you ARE in sprint or ARE in Unstoppable you safe.
You also have a major difference that a PVE mob does not "wait" until out of Unstoppable to attack. a competent PVP player WILL wait to blow their Ice Knife for example on you so it not only prones but does ALOT more damage.
So to the above, this is why we need BETTER TEMP HP - that is also not tied to Damage bonuses. So that we CAN sustain during those moment. Thats the issue of this whole thing. The Temp HP we get in PVE is fine now, but when you add healing depression AND un-mitigatable damage you cant do anything about it making our class worthless.
For PVE Destroyers, not tanks, this is the other issue: Stacking. Its VERY easy to rush a group of mobs, do an AoE swing - gain a stack of Destroyer AND get them all to attack you. Boom, you just build quite a bit of determination, and swing 2x more and you are full destroyer stacks and with them attacking YOU you build determination thus allowing you to then build destroyer stacks (capstone) up as well. Within seconds your fully buffed up.
In PVP you cannot (generally) do an AoE attack on 3+ people to gain a stack. Thus you rely on the low chance of (25%?) to gain a stack of destroyer in PVP - which is fine EXCEPT all a CW needs to do is say, Repel you, and even if you DID sprint and catch back up to that CW, theres a HIGH chance with that 25% you wont get another stack of Destroyer meaning the first stack falls off - even if you DO get to attack and the CW just sits there and face tanks it, meaning its impossible to get and maintain these stacks - which is a LARGE portion of our DPS.
Ontop of that, you cannot FORCE players to attack you, so you will neither be building Destroyer Feat stacks NOR Destroyer capstone stacks since we are REQUIRED to be IN unstoppable to gain these stacks.
IF you ARE being attacked, chances are you are being controled - some way or another, which does NOT build determination unless you take enough HP loss. Most smart players will save all their damage for Bursts. Meaning when you finally DO get a chance to attack you probably have 70% or less HP. You then get a very small window to even get your destroyer stacks up, thats if you dont get kited. Ontop of that, <70% HP opens you up for a TRs SE which crits for 70k+ HP and Execs hit even harder under 70%, since it bypasses all your DR being IN unstoppable or even sprinting or BOTH wont mean a thing, where as in PVE if you were sprinting + Unstoppable you would take almost zero damage.
Stamina Gain is another one. In most PVE encounters you dont need much stamina. You typically sprint out in front of a group to get "agro" but then, more or less, stand still spamming attacks. When that encounter is done you probably have most of your stamina back up.
Go into a PVP match though, try and catch a CW. Chances are you will have VERY little "uptime" attacking them and MOST of your time will just be spent being kited around while they DoT you to death. Or a TR where the only small window you get to attack they are typically in ITC since they run nearly 2x your speed in stealth.
These are "specific" examples but there is one for nearly any class we face. The fact of the matter is GWFs in PVP are in a POOR spot in PVP that CANNOT and WILL NOT be visible from PVE content.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
Feedback squishy warrior:
This is joke with 20% base dr +12k temp hp +full stack tans negation enchant + full unstoppable one hit and i die.
Somthing is total wrong i dont get it dragons have armor pen ?
Where is my missing 60% dr ?
Aslo another ninja nerf to destroyer cap feat unstoppable gain from every 6' hit or encounter ?
PS: can someone upload some short vid from destroyer determination gain in mod 5 and in mod 6 to give better feedback cuz w/o it i cant prove the bug or "nerf?".
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited March 2015
i play every class, GWF is near the bottom at this point for PVP (sw might be worse) and of middling quality for certain situations for PVE (if you go destroyer, as sent is worthless again for pve)
This class is EXACTLY were trs were in pve a few mods back, a single STATIC target dps machine.. great so bosses that dont move much, or dont have many adds we will do ok with that one circumstance.
ITs a far cry from the death wielding machine this class was. ITs not even the rework, if they gave us ALL that rework back, this game has changed and this class needs some updating to get it back to further usefulness.
Need more on the sport targeting, more CC control back, some more Defense survibility and more AOE damage.
I dont mind giving up any range, if we can move again to targets (give me unlimited threatening rush and remove that annoying delay on it)
BTW dont for a second pretend sprint is fixed, its STILL not fixed compared to the SW, there is a hitch on it as well. Wicked strike, still gives a hitch as well.
The class is less respondent, less damaging, less controlling, less everything that it used to be.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
Just to avoid incorrect feedback the weapon dmg is huge buffed after you enter in lvl 70+ zone .
So the GWFs dps give you total wrong picture the true dps is if you hit combat dummy in trade of blades.
I think its a bug GWf have the biggest weapon dmg in game but other classes dont get so huge base weapon dmg boost in lvl 70 zone .
CW have the second biggest weapon dmg in the game.
But the difference in normal 59 areas are not so huge only 200 and not 800.
i play every class, GWF is near the bottom at this point for PVP (sw might be worse) and of middling quality for certain situations for PVE (if you go destroyer, as sent is worthless again for pve)
This class is EXACTLY were trs were in pve a few mods back, a single STATIC target dps machine.. great so bosses that dont move much, or dont have many adds we will do ok with that one circumstance.
ITs a far cry from the death wielding machine this class was. ITs not even the rework, if they gave us ALL that rework back, this game has changed and this class needs some updating to get it back to further usefulness.
Need more on the sport targeting, more CC control back, some more Defense survibility and more AOE damage.
I dont mind giving up any range, if we can move again to targets (give me unlimited threatening rush and remove that annoying delay on it)
BTW dont for a second pretend sprint is fixed, its STILL not fixed compared to the SW, there is a hitch on it as well. Wicked strike, still gives a hitch as well.
The class is less respondent, less damaging, less controlling, less everything that it used to be.
Thanks for the great feedback and I couldnt agree more with this. The only class that is worse off in PVP is the SW. Whats funny is the TWO worst classes share the same "shift" ability - maybe thats a sign that its clearly NOT on par with other classes and needs a rework (+100% deflect has been proposed)
To the Threat Rush point - I agree as well. The entire purpose this was changed was because of the "impossible to kite" mentality. You could have done ONE of the two fixes - 3 charges OR the "delay". TBH BOTH is just a flat out OVER nerf.
FYI - The "3 charges" doesnt REALLY affect PVP play, just makes it annoying as HECK in PVE. The delay renders the entire at will NEARLY useless as by the time the delay is over, you could have just moved to the target without it (given the small range). The only benefit to using it and why its mandatory? Its 'mark'. If GWFs had a different, more reliable way of marking targets NOONE would use Threat Rush.
The big issue and why I (and many others) are raising such a stink about this class is two fold:
1) We have BEEN at the bottom of the 'pile' for the last TWO modules now. Started with the module 4 nerfs that lastd THROUGH module 5, we only got PURE LUCK that we were given Intimidation which quickly become THE ONLY viable PVP build because of the mawssive 14k+ Power Stacking ability. If this feat alone were merely nerfed a tiny bit more, it would have rendered the class COMPLETELY useless (which is what is happening in module 6)
2) We do NOT - I repeat DO NOT want a complete overhaul on our class like you did BOTH module 3 and then module 4.
PLEASE - LISTEN this time. I was one that spoke up against ALL the module 3 buffs. But noone listened (and it wasnt just me). I then ALSO posted AGAINST all the module 4 nerfs - didnt listen.
All thats happened is overbuff overnerf this class when NEITHER is required. I dont want to build a GWF, Deck him out in gear that we have to HEAVILY invest into to have it re-worked next module when the class is finally "fixed".
Comments
Im not sure if this would even fix us LOL! The old template we didnt get CA+20% damage off Mark. So we would be losing considerable damage.
Plus, being honest, as much as I would love that it would never happen. They will never revert BACK to something and they will never make THIS many sweeping changes 8 days before module. They will make small tweaks and I hope those PRIMARILY are:
[*]Great Weapon Fighter
To your first point - then they would have to nerf something in destroyer or dest GWFs will be monsters in PVE, given that fact, and that we are already NOT in a good spot for PVP Id rather have them just give universal buffs to our REAL issue that you described as well:
Survivability is horrible. Also to your point, we cant deal damage because we cant take damage and we cant even AVOID damage if we want either - like classes that can dodge.
Maybe they need to make DODGE no longer "immune" but just "increased DR" like GWF has - make it fair. See how much QQ happens because classes would be more "squishy". How is that for fair LOL!
the rest:
buff the general damage for 10%
powers up in 25% of damage per rank (instead of 10)... our damage comes from the specialization.
Disciple of War: x% of your power is arp.
destroyer paragon:during unstoppable, your encounter do +30% of damage. point
agree to ayroux; all trees receive determination dealing damage.
up the class features for 6 secs.
now you have a solid and dinamic "non faceroll" class...
I spoke to Panderus about GWfs during the Friday PVP event, he says their tests have shown GWFs to be about the same as everyone else.
I treid to respectfully disagree with him, however it didnt seem like he trusted my feedback, discounting it saying that most people have not tested lvl 70 pvp yet.
I would say that based on my experience since BETA, its pretty easy to see the state of GWFs without testing. Now that I have tested lvl 70 PVP on my GWF, its EVEN MORE apparent that we are the weaklings of PVP.
GFs can block for 20-30 seconds + have massive group benefits, whittle your HP down as you cannot damage them.
DCs - literally unkillable for a GWF. We literally deal 0 damage to them.
TRs - cant catch them, SEd for 60-70k+ with no way to avoid it...
Need I go on?
I am offering my help to help BALANCE the class rather than continue down the path of duct-tape and bandages that we keep doing module after module.
To FIX the class you cannnot put off changes and you cannot do SWEEPING MAJOR changes but small MINOR ones.
my 14.6k rogue at 60 (not using plaguefire or flaming) can outdps my 20.2k GWF (both the level 60, and the level 70 version wearing full level 70 purple gear and a pure vorpal) by almost double his damage for the 60, and moderately higher damage than the level 70. This was tested over 1 minute of combat on a training dummy. I can re-do this test and post combat damage logs if required and probably still get quite similar results.
The point Ayroux makes about SE is very true, the DR from sprint doesnt help here and it don't have an actual dodge mechanic.
How is this "classes on the same level" You might say "oh but GWF is tankier" But the truth there is we aren't, We may have higher DR / defence, but this doesnt matter when in PvP a lot of high damage sources ignore DR and deflect , also at 70 the scaling on our DR and deflect is shocking and we have under 30% dr even with higher defence levels like 6k and above. our feats that Address effectiveness of AC and defence need to be increased, as does our hp pool / temp hp.
There is so much weak about our class in both PvE and PvP at the moment, and It feels like we're basically being given up on.
I'm also concerned about the new pvp at 70. there is only 2 PvP sets for 70 that provide tenacity. and one of them costs ~80,000 glory, the other is at lest 2-3 months of farming IWD. how would a NEW player or "free" player manage to farm this without suffering flaming and extremely low returns (remember if someone gets under a set number of points they dont even get glory.)
At 60 we had 3 tiers of PVP gear, so you could buy the lower tier, (even buy it in AH) then slowly farm glory up to the new stuff. they cant do that at 70 and as such would be entering in with PvE gear on and not benefit from the tenacity ARpen resist and Damage resistance.
We already know that sometimes PvP players can be quite "toxic" when it comes to undergeared people and this definitely wouldn't help that, though that's probably going to happen regardless
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
really hard to believe they test stuff. with all the bugs in preview that goes live, how are we gonna take panderus' word that he tests stuff?
Feedback: unstoppable
The class mechanic is useless for survivability. Too much DPS going right through DR. Turn it to deflect and deflect severity. My 11k HR is tankier than a 18k GWF. Determination gain nerf was enough. Buff unstoppable back to being a good survivability tool and respect its name. The mechanic is far behind that of other classes.
sad read that. really sad. you can see why some trolls have destroyed this game so much.
What if Unstoppable AND "sprint" instead of granting ANY DR just gave us 50-100% Deflect chance?
In a sense you "deflect all blows" etc etc.
You wouldnt even REALLY need any severity TBH, if we can get 30% DR, that would take 10,000 damage down to 7k then deflected down to 3,500 Damage for an "equiv" of 65% DR. Then it could be mitigated down by tenacity ETC for even more.
If a TR gets 100% critical in Stealth, I dont see why GWF cant achieve 100% deflect in unstoppable or in sprint.
I agree with this, my ONLY reservation would be the boon "Fey Thistle" because that would turn us into deflect monsters, but I do like the idea MUCH better than DR TBH.
This wouldnt also affect things like SE/Piercing damage tho, which is another issue...
Fey thistle would be strong and all. but people don't HAVE to attack us while we are unstoppable, if anything unstoppable should be when attacking us is a bad idea. like how its hard to attack rogues when they are stealthed, and how when GF is blocking they take 80% less damage. they can just kite and then start afterwards. also ITC gives 100% deflect as does the HR daily. Plus piercing damage would still hit through it so we wouldnt be unkillable.
I actually REALLY like this idea. it definitely helps our survivability inside unstoppable. we'd still be squishy outside though. it also makes Fey thistle kind of a Required boon for us. we should have an actual feat that reflects some damage whenever we deflect to go with this, or a class feature that does this.
This also goes with the idea that GWF is about DR AND DEFLECT (which are the dominant stats on our defensive gear). as we have bravery + another feature to further make our deflect stronger, and Sentinel can be a Deflect/DR hybrid tank that deals damage on deflects.
What would sentinel capstone do though instead of raising DR from unstoppable? or would instead unstoppable give no dr but just flat 100% deflect and CC immune for 4-8 seconds, and the sentinel capstone makes it add DR / increase temp HP gain? any ideas here? I feel this is something that could turn us around from a survivability standpoint.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Well the Sentinel Capstone could instead give +25% Deflect Severity.
This would make all GWFs not as "tanky" per-se however utilize deflect REALLY well. Unstoppable+Sprint would grant 100% deflect chance, Sentinel Capstone would give an extra +25% Deflect Severity.
The only thing that makes me nervous is our low DR, however I think this could be a very interesting re-work. This would also need to be in conjunction with the other changes:
1) Stacking buffs
2) temp HP increase
3) Stamina gain
4) determination gain
5) Intimidation
|NOW 6) Unstoppable+Sprint changed to 100% deflect chance.
ALL of these things would make me MUCH more happy for module 6 rather than VERY hesitant and leery about my future in the game, not that I would quit at all, but I have been very unmotivated to pvp recently because when I do I literally get 1 shot by TRs. I reflect back module 1 when any class could compete with any class - to an extent.
Now it seems our class isnt even given the tools to compete 1v1 and the excuse we get is its not balanced around 1v1s. Well thats great and all but its not even balanced 5v5 of team play because if it is... Whats the roll of the GWF - the target?
I really wish the DEVs would listen to all this feedback. The players that are sticking with GWF still have faith, however the players that are still here are not the 13 year olds looking for a god-like class. We just want a viable one.....
Its a really cool mechanic because it gives us our own unique method of tanking, We have the GWF as the hard DR tank, the paladin as the sustain healing tank, and GWF as more of a Deflect / agile offtank, makes our role of taking adds more useful and gives us better solo potential as well as group potential.
they could at least try it. I mean what is there really too lose if its tried via the preview server, if we suddenly become unkillable demigods at 70, then we know its too strong, While if the feedback from GWF comes back as positive, and other classes dont raise a shocking storm about the change, then suddenly all the GWF players have a change they're really happy about.
(I wouldnt take results from 60 as seriously as results from 70 as most people who pvp GWF are in BiS 20-25k gs at 60 so naturally would be a lot stronger than the more average <15k average people )
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
They are operating a "free" game with a dwindling income so what do you expect? Quality development needs money
GWF Sentinel - there should be a trade-off, go Destroyer do great damage, go Sentinel lose the damage but become nigh impossible to kill. This is missing. Right now on Preview the Sentinel is not much tougher than a Destroyer with much less damage
Grand Fissure - this top level ability is worthless with the damage reduction it received from the last Patch. Way to give us something nice only to take it away and thats even before it hit Live
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
STR : stamina regen / dot resist give you trice more than it gaved you before.
Temporary hitpoints from unstopable should be based on maximum hitpoints and it should grant 20-30% of Max HP that isn't affected by HealingDepression and it should persists even after the unstopable ends.
Stamina should be a little more responsive with the animation.
buff the base damage of all encounters at lvl 70 by atleast 40%.
FeedBack sentinel:
If you only keep the Damage bonus as amplifier, than increase the base damage of intimidation up to 250% of weapon damage = out of 2100 weapon damage its a base damage of 5000 with only damage bonus as amplifier (no mark, no cba, no armor pen, exactly as it is right now on the PTR).
Come and get it and Daring should should have 2 seconds shorter cooldown, and this 2 encounters should buff the allies too.
feedback destroyer:
Destroyer now gives you 1 stack / enemy that is in a 50' radius . Additionally each stack of Destroyer grants you .7/1.4/2.8/3.5% bonus damage per stack. And a 75% out of weapon damage as Crushing damage , that ignores all forms of immunity,defense etc. on every hit.
Unfettered strikes: when your stamina decreases your run speed is increased by 14/188/22/26/30%.
feedback instigator:
- nimble runner should give up to 20% more deflect chance,
- capstone should grant 35-50% dmg resistance while in unstopable. The dmg bonus should remain the same
Mighty leap DROP RADIUS should be bigger, increase its AREA DAMAGE.
increase mightyleap and not so fast base damage by 50%
Strength should be changed to: 2% Damage and 2% Stamina Regen. This helps our "base" damage as well as stamina regen issues.
Temp HP - I agree should be AROUND the 15-30% NET (after Healing Depression) however I dont like making it 30-60% for PVE purposes because that would be VERY overpowered. So in order to GET 15-30% NET, this is where we need something like:
4% Temp HP Per second (NOT affected by Healing depression) OR 4% temp HP each time you are struck (with a .5sec ICD AND this could be affected by healing depression.
This would give us 16%-32% on the first, and a POSSIBLE 16%-32% with the second (if struck every .5seconds for the duration of unstoppable).
I am not opposed to an increase of encounters, but TBH, id rather see an increase in damage of our at wills. I think STR = 2% damage will already give most GWFs a 15%+ damage boost there as well as a 15%+ stamina regen increase.
Personally I think Intim DOES need to be buffed but I would rather not have entire builds revolve around this one mechanic (like we have on LIVE). Id much rather see this turn into a "fire of the gods" like ability. This would remove the need to use BOTH CAGI+DS and allow you to only use 1 of them, it would also significantly buff the DPS of this feat without making it uber bursty. Giving it 100% weapon damage every second for 15 seconds, thats alot of damage for us GWFs.
Very much dislike this. This makes it not very good in 1v1 scenarios. The only issue this feat even has is that in PVP its not very good. In PVE its easy to attack 3+ targets and keep the bonus up. You nearly NEVER attack 3+ targets in PVP lets alone the small chance to gain a stack off any attack combined with the uptime of the stacks is VERY bad.
All this feat needs is a significant increase in "uptime". I would even prefer a system of "in combat" versus "out of combat" which triggers how long stacks last. If we build stacks within an "encounter" as long as we stay IN combat we retain our stacks.
Unfettered Strikes, I dont dislike how it works now, however the only "issue" is that when you cant hit a target (like TR) it really doesnt give you much ability to do anything. Not sure if there is a good fix for this, maybe a BETTER option is something like "each time you are struck gain 5/10/15/20/25% movement for 4 seconds" - And remove the stacking. Thus if a TR damages you or anyone for that matter you gain significant movement.
Nimble Runner - I agree needs a boost. Hopefully they consider sprint+Unstoppable instead of DR granting 100% deflect chance and then Nimble RUnner COULD instead give and extra +20% deflect severity during sprint. Also I would think Nimble Runner to increase your stamina gain somehow as well.
Capstone "stack" duration needs to be bumped up to 8-10 seconds of not getting hit.
Allied Opportunity: Should increase the damage of Mighty Leap and NSF by 50% Mighty Leap and NSF should now STUN targets for .2/.4/.6/.8/1 Second.
Pls increase the DR from AC at least x2 for all heavy plate users this is total unfair .
I am oneshooted from WotD dragon and CW can tank it frontal + he have dodge.
Its total unbalanced in the pve way.
So CW can eat up 100 k dmg and stil have 74k hp left GWF can have 100 k hp but he cant eat 100k dmg they only mignate 28k dmg and they almost die from 1 hit or better they die from 1 hit.
I will show some pic from GWF (in unstoppable) oneshooted by Rogrotus with maxed def gear.
After prev is up agan.
Also i will show some pic from wrong weapon dmg of GWFs if they enter in lvl 70 area other classes have this not so player give falsh feedback if they think this is GWFs true dmg. The point is if i enter in trade of blades i have normal weapon dmg so i can give true feedback about GWF true dmg but if i enter lvl 70 area i will have boosted weapon dmg so i will give incorrect feedback about GWFs dmg.
and if they increase at lvl 70 the base damage of the encounters a nerf of focused destroyer* with the stack system wont affect too much imo, and that "piercing damage" will make the GWF destro viable in PVP .
I dont think it'd make us immortal, Piercing damage would still be undeflectable, and although it would be less overall damage we'd still take a fair bit. remember this is only in unstoppable (4-8 seconds Lifetime) and potentially sprint (which takes so long to recharge we'd be getting it for .5-1 second at a time every 4-5 seconds at the absolute MAX if we kept spamming it)
I do agree with changing our reliance on stacks, whether it be Ayroux's suggestion of them lasting till end of combat, or another, As well as changing destroyers capstone to be a Flat damage increase in unstoppable (not reliant on stacks) so we actually get the increased damage when it matters most (when we are attacking faster)
I noticed recently that Guardian figther Bull Charge can go up in the air also (so knock people on the high ground in one of the PVP maps off the pillars). We NEED Targeted CC like this. I swear half of our problem with damage is that we cant catch people. the other half is that our damage/ attack speed outside unstoppable / without stacks that cant be maintained is shockingly low.
Seriously. put a GWF with set gear, against every other class with a same level of gear. have players of around the same skill play them, and look at the results. the GWF wont beat any other class. (by same level of skill I assume people who dont just stand next to each other trying to spam skills, I'm talking about a fight involving movement, dodging, etc.) We can be outdamaged by a HEALER, and the only class that I can see not outdpsing us (paladin) can heal so hard we cant kill them anyway.
Also, test the damage output of the class on a training dummy, compared to the damage output of the other "DPS" classes with them all wearing like gear.we'll be at the lowest there also. If I had a 70 of each class I'd do this myself.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
That's the reason why i think CW feedback on GWF is quite toxic most of the time, like the one who posted lately saying "i've done few PvE encounters with GWFs and they are fine". It's superficial feedback from someone who does not know how the class works, and is the reason why GWF class got so many wrong feedback even after module 4, such as "i've met 20k intimidation sentinel in PvP with my 15k CW, GWF is not weak it's OP!!!".
Talking about PvP:
- I agree with determination coming from damage dealt or being built up at a slow, steady rate when GWFs enters combat. Must be a little addition to the determination gain from damage taken (main source of determination) and class-wide, not just for destroyer. Reason: to make out mechanic a bit less depending on what the enemy does. No other class has its class mechanic based on how the enemy plays. Or, if so, at least make it a more powerful class mechanic the way unstoppable was. Explanation: old unstoppable in, say, module 3, could be "tamed" with focused CC and burst DPS. Was truly "unstoppable" if the enemy was spamming puny at-wills. Only problem was the fast determination gain. Right now, with current determination gain, it would be easy to have the time to CC-DPS focus GWFs between unstoppables. But the mechanic itself must grant the GWF what the name says: the warrior must take little damage and resist CC for the entire duration of unstoppable (4-8 seconds). Considering with focused DPS right now a GWF, even a sentinel, can go "unstoppable" only a couple of times in a fight, it would be balanced. So buff unstoppable the way you want but it should work this way for all paths.
- Instigator should also have smalldetermination gain buffed from damage taken WHILE SPRINTING.
- Destroyer should be able to gain a bit of determination during unstoppable when dealing damage
- Sentinel should get a further temporary HP buff from unstoppable to boost survivability/ tankiness/ damage-absorbing capability
- Stacks should stay as long as the GWF is in combat. So you build them at the start, then you don't have to constantly refresh them. Fair enough.
- Since intimidation burst is gone, Sentinel should get buffed Restoring Strike damage to increase burst
- Change stuns into dazes and heavy slows. Reason: stuns are deflected and nullified most of the time. Dazes would prevent enemies from rolling/ teleporting. Hard slows should work the same way as TR encounter that heavily reduces your mobility and prevents you from shifting away. Reason: GWF relies on mobility. So it makes sense if GWF CC would work decreasing mobility rather than shutting down the enemy completely, allowing the GWF to get in melee range more easily to deal damage.
- Change IBS: make it like savage advance, with first hit closing gap/ prone the enemy, and then the execution move. So it does not rely on a CC encounter to land first.
GWF class rework:
- Here's my thought: GWF class should not have ranged encounters. Such as FLS or hidden daggers exc... How it should work:
1) Increase stamina regeneration and stamina overall by A LOT. Change sprint CC immunity in 50% CC duration reduction and grant slow effects immunity if hit while sprinting. IF unstoppable is buffed back to being "unstoppable" (see above) AND determination gain is buffed (see above), it should be balanced, allowing other classes to still CC the GWF a bit in between unstoppables. Make the GWF able to chase ANY opponent and close gaps fast
2) Add a more GWF-fitting AoE encounter in place of hidden daggers
3) add the dazes/ slows effects from above
Now GWFs would not hit from range BUT be able to have much more mobility and gap-closing ability to get in melee range, while being able to hit enemies with some encounters that would actually limit their mobility, making it easier for GWFs to get in melee range if not dodged.
I think for PvP changes in roughly this direction would rework the class allowing GWFs to have tools to counter the enemies while not making them OP, considering the DPS burst TRs, HRs, CWs eand other classes in general are able to pull out to take GWFs down in between unstoppable.
Would overall turn a vs GWF fight in a more balanced burst-defend/kite-burst. With no ranged CC would be easier to kite from one side, but from the other GWFs would sprint a lot more, being able to chase more and "outrun" the enemy, while also tanking more with new unstoppable.
If you focus a GWF during unstoppable you are punished.
If the GWF can time sprint or you hit them during sprint, GWFs can "mitigate" CC and chase you better
If you can CC a GWF out of unstoppable and sprint he is heavily punished (full CC and full DPS burst).
To me, would be fair if stamina/ stamina gain is balanced well to be not too low and not too much. Less pressure from ranged CC for the other classes but more tools for GWF to close the gap and also defend through sprint, while the unstoppable class mechanic allows for "burst" tank effectively and scales with how the enemy fights: smart play is rewarded, mindless pew-pew spam is punished.
Agreed. Give Iron Vanguard path back to the GF.
yes exactly
remove iv path from gwf and sm poth from gf
give gwf kensei and gf pitfighter
Id prefer we first balance the class out. Cmon, you guys BOTH know they are not even remotely thinking about this especially this module. IF this were to happen it would be when they add a 3rd option, which would just add not remove IV.
Id rather they give us better encounter options - for instance:
"Punishing Charge" - Reworked to a "Bull Charge" Like mechanic. Make the encounter only usable with a target, make it a significantly increased distance (30-50'), make it STUN the target when you hit them. And make it a BASE CD of around 10 seconds (which would put it around 7-8 with recovery etc)
Now GWFs have a good mechanic like GFs to close the gap, allowing them to use sprint more for defensive options rather than feeling they need it to CATCH targets.
If you then add "Mark" to Flourish, NOW SM is actually useful with both a gap closer and a strong encounter that Marks.
All of this still wont fix many of the other issues:
1) Temp HP - not enough with HD, Based on Damage Boosts which is bad.
2) Stacking - this is the biggest issue with GWFs atm. With: Weapon Master, Destroyer, Destroyers Purpose, Instagator Capstone.
3) Determination Gain - Needs to be BOTH based on damage taken and SOMETHING the GWF can do to gain determinaton - not solely based on what your enemies do.
4) Stamina Gain - even increasing Strength to provide 2% Stamina gain for each point (and also 2% damage as well) would be a significant improvement, and combined with a punishing Charge rework the class would be in a solid spot.
I also liked the other ideas in this thread to:
1) Unstoppable/Sprint instead of DR grant 100% deflect chance
2) Sentinel Aegis - instead of 20% more defense gives 25% more deflect severity.
3) Intimidation - Copy Fire of the Gods, Paste onto Intimidation Feat however only difference is it still procs off CAGI/DS rather than crits.
All of the above do many things and would make the class MUCH more desirable to play both in PVE and PVP.
game over.
I think this is precisely the issue and I wrote a detailed post about this pages back. Maybe it was removed.
Things like Temp HP will not be noticed in PVE because PVE does not have healing depression. You also - MOST of the time will be playing PVE content with a healer, have the ability to use more than 1 potion (I have tons of stone of health that I use when low) and also PVE mobs do not have damage that bypasses ALL our DR.
In PVP you get 1/2 the Temp HP, because of the way domination is played you probably dont have a pocket healer (this is turning into how we WILL have to play PVP, which well just end up with noone premade Quing with a GWf since you can just take a CW instead to spit out more DPS, have more control and not be a s squishy - or a GF which provides countless party utility.) You also have damage sources that bypass our DR so things like Sprint or Unstoppable make zero difference where as in PVE you can feel confident if you ARE in sprint or ARE in Unstoppable you safe.
You also have a major difference that a PVE mob does not "wait" until out of Unstoppable to attack. a competent PVP player WILL wait to blow their Ice Knife for example on you so it not only prones but does ALOT more damage.
So to the above, this is why we need BETTER TEMP HP - that is also not tied to Damage bonuses. So that we CAN sustain during those moment. Thats the issue of this whole thing. The Temp HP we get in PVE is fine now, but when you add healing depression AND un-mitigatable damage you cant do anything about it making our class worthless.
For PVE Destroyers, not tanks, this is the other issue: Stacking. Its VERY easy to rush a group of mobs, do an AoE swing - gain a stack of Destroyer AND get them all to attack you. Boom, you just build quite a bit of determination, and swing 2x more and you are full destroyer stacks and with them attacking YOU you build determination thus allowing you to then build destroyer stacks (capstone) up as well. Within seconds your fully buffed up.
In PVP you cannot (generally) do an AoE attack on 3+ people to gain a stack. Thus you rely on the low chance of (25%?) to gain a stack of destroyer in PVP - which is fine EXCEPT all a CW needs to do is say, Repel you, and even if you DID sprint and catch back up to that CW, theres a HIGH chance with that 25% you wont get another stack of Destroyer meaning the first stack falls off - even if you DO get to attack and the CW just sits there and face tanks it, meaning its impossible to get and maintain these stacks - which is a LARGE portion of our DPS.
Ontop of that, you cannot FORCE players to attack you, so you will neither be building Destroyer Feat stacks NOR Destroyer capstone stacks since we are REQUIRED to be IN unstoppable to gain these stacks.
IF you ARE being attacked, chances are you are being controled - some way or another, which does NOT build determination unless you take enough HP loss. Most smart players will save all their damage for Bursts. Meaning when you finally DO get a chance to attack you probably have 70% or less HP. You then get a very small window to even get your destroyer stacks up, thats if you dont get kited. Ontop of that, <70% HP opens you up for a TRs SE which crits for 70k+ HP and Execs hit even harder under 70%, since it bypasses all your DR being IN unstoppable or even sprinting or BOTH wont mean a thing, where as in PVE if you were sprinting + Unstoppable you would take almost zero damage.
Stamina Gain is another one. In most PVE encounters you dont need much stamina. You typically sprint out in front of a group to get "agro" but then, more or less, stand still spamming attacks. When that encounter is done you probably have most of your stamina back up.
Go into a PVP match though, try and catch a CW. Chances are you will have VERY little "uptime" attacking them and MOST of your time will just be spent being kited around while they DoT you to death. Or a TR where the only small window you get to attack they are typically in ITC since they run nearly 2x your speed in stealth.
These are "specific" examples but there is one for nearly any class we face. The fact of the matter is GWFs in PVP are in a POOR spot in PVP that CANNOT and WILL NOT be visible from PVE content.
This is joke with 20% base dr +12k temp hp +full stack tans negation enchant + full unstoppable one hit and i die.
Somthing is total wrong i dont get it dragons have armor pen ?
Where is my missing 60% dr ?
Aslo another ninja nerf to destroyer cap feat unstoppable gain from every 6' hit or encounter ?
PS: can someone upload some short vid from destroyer determination gain in mod 5 and in mod 6 to give better feedback cuz w/o it i cant prove the bug or "nerf?".
This class is EXACTLY were trs were in pve a few mods back, a single STATIC target dps machine.. great so bosses that dont move much, or dont have many adds we will do ok with that one circumstance.
ITs a far cry from the death wielding machine this class was. ITs not even the rework, if they gave us ALL that rework back, this game has changed and this class needs some updating to get it back to further usefulness.
Need more on the sport targeting, more CC control back, some more Defense survibility and more AOE damage.
I dont mind giving up any range, if we can move again to targets (give me unlimited threatening rush and remove that annoying delay on it)
BTW dont for a second pretend sprint is fixed, its STILL not fixed compared to the SW, there is a hitch on it as well. Wicked strike, still gives a hitch as well.
The class is less respondent, less damaging, less controlling, less everything that it used to be.
Just to avoid incorrect feedback the weapon dmg is huge buffed after you enter in lvl 70+ zone .
So the GWFs dps give you total wrong picture the true dps is if you hit combat dummy in trade of blades.
I think its a bug GWf have the biggest weapon dmg in game but other classes dont get so huge base weapon dmg boost in lvl 70 zone .
CW have the second biggest weapon dmg in the game.
But the difference in normal 59 areas are not so huge only 200 and not 800.
Thanks for the great feedback and I couldnt agree more with this. The only class that is worse off in PVP is the SW. Whats funny is the TWO worst classes share the same "shift" ability - maybe thats a sign that its clearly NOT on par with other classes and needs a rework (+100% deflect has been proposed)
To the Threat Rush point - I agree as well. The entire purpose this was changed was because of the "impossible to kite" mentality. You could have done ONE of the two fixes - 3 charges OR the "delay". TBH BOTH is just a flat out OVER nerf.
FYI - The "3 charges" doesnt REALLY affect PVP play, just makes it annoying as HECK in PVE. The delay renders the entire at will NEARLY useless as by the time the delay is over, you could have just moved to the target without it (given the small range). The only benefit to using it and why its mandatory? Its 'mark'. If GWFs had a different, more reliable way of marking targets NOONE would use Threat Rush.
The big issue and why I (and many others) are raising such a stink about this class is two fold:
1) We have BEEN at the bottom of the 'pile' for the last TWO modules now. Started with the module 4 nerfs that lastd THROUGH module 5, we only got PURE LUCK that we were given Intimidation which quickly become THE ONLY viable PVP build because of the mawssive 14k+ Power Stacking ability. If this feat alone were merely nerfed a tiny bit more, it would have rendered the class COMPLETELY useless (which is what is happening in module 6)
2) We do NOT - I repeat DO NOT want a complete overhaul on our class like you did BOTH module 3 and then module 4.
PLEASE - LISTEN this time. I was one that spoke up against ALL the module 3 buffs. But noone listened (and it wasnt just me). I then ALSO posted AGAINST all the module 4 nerfs - didnt listen.
All thats happened is overbuff overnerf this class when NEITHER is required. I dont want to build a GWF, Deck him out in gear that we have to HEAVILY invest into to have it re-worked next module when the class is finally "fixed".