like i suspected the temp HP is not enough.
the destroyer/instigator gets far more than the sentinel, because they have more damage bonus (capstones).
so scaling out of damage bonus is another bad idea, when you just could've increased the % out of max HP .
feedback : Sentinel
- iNTIMIDATION damage needs his amplifiers back, its damage is to small , fighting against players who have 100.000 HP, an sentinel is hitting them 2k - 6k crit, this is laughable, just bring back the amplifiers. leave it scaled on weapon damage, 125% out of 2000 weapon damage it's 2.500 base damage for intimidation, i just hoped we had at least 3500 base damage. maybe tommorow patch will give what i hoped for.
meaning that our weapon damage at BIS should be around 2.700-2900, and 125% is truly fair, if not increase it to 175%.
- Daring Shout and Come and Get it should get 2-3 seconds shorter, it's a must.
- After GWF uses a DAring shout he will buff his allies with Damage REsistance.
After GWF uses COme and Get it he will buff his allies with Flat Damage %.
TEMPORARY HITPOINTS FROM UNSTOPABLE
you get 40%-60% out of your MAX HP as TEMPORARY HITPOINTS THAT PERSISTS AFTER UNSTOPABLE IS OVER.
after by HD in PVP its 20%-30% out of your max HP.
so out of 100k hp its 20.000 hp as temporary hitpoints, and 30.000 temporary hitpoints this change should be made.
its not okai at all to get 11.000 hp / 50% damage bonus. what were you thinking ?
like i suspected the temp HP is not enough.
the destroyer/instigator gets far more than the sentinel, because they have more damage bonus (capstones).
so scaling out of damage bonus is another bad idea, when you just could've increased the % out of max HP .
feedback : Sentinel
- iNTIMIDATION damage needs his amplifiers back, its damage is to small , fighting against players who have 100.000 HP, an sentinel is hitting them 2k - 6k crit, this is laughable, just bring back the amplifiers. leave it scaled on weapon damage, 125% out of 2000 weapon damage it's 2.500 base damage for intimidation, i just hoped we had at least 3500 base damage. maybe tommorow patch will give what i hoped for.
meaning that our weapon damage at BIS should be around 2.700-2900, and 125% is truly fair, if not increase it to 175%.
- Daring Shout and Come and Get it should get 2-3 seconds shorter, it's a must.
- After GWF uses a DAring shout he will buff his allies with Damage REsistance.
After GWF uses COme and Get it he will buff his allies with Flat Damage %.
TEMPORARY HITPOINTS FROM UNSTOPABLE
you get 40%-60% out of your MAX HP as TEMPORARY HITPOINTS THAT PERSISTS AFTER UNSTOPABLE IS OVER.
after by HD in PVP its 20%-30% out of your max HP.
so out of 100k hp its 20.000 hp as temporary hitpoints, and 30.000 temporary hitpoints this change should be made.
its not okai at all to get 11.000 hp / 50% damage bonus. what were you thinking ?
It just needs to be like 20-40% and NOT be affected by HD at all. So at 100k hp in both PvE and PvP you get 40k at full deter. and 20 at half. that'd be fine for both pve and pvp.
Bigger problem in pvp is how hard it is to lock a good player down. bad players stand still so we can hit them, a goodplayer will just kite us.
I'm really concerned about the output at 70 in PvE though, 60 being scaled to 70 seemed ok. but actually at 70 Tanks are really weak other than the Paladin (who basically cant die unless your team focussed them, Good tank is good)
Feedback : Grand Fissure
The damage on this is a joke. ~3k base at level 70 with 13k power? Hidden daggers hits twice as hard, has 3 charges, AND is easier to land. This power should be like near IBS damage with the animation and the length of time it takes to cast.
Feedback : PVP Damage output
So.. An Ilvl 1,482 Oathbound paladin( wearing basic greens and low level enchants), can outheal any damage I attempt as a Ilvl 2,841 GWF (wearing the New PVP gear, and with Pure Vorpal.)
A maxed out 100% BiS Gf, can kill me simply from reflect damage (nothing else) without even losing 10% hp.
This does not sound like a good balance.
Feedback : GWF and Heoric Epics
Attempted "Easy" level Heoric epics in IwP and In WoD. Solo, had no chance at all, Watched a TR solo it with far higher damage output after my third death happened. I'm starting to think our entire class is just flawed beyond repair and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
BUG: Grand Fissure(rank3-rank4) now deal even lower dmg then my at will .
So.. An Ilvl 1,482 Oathbound paladin( wearing basic greens and low level enchants), can outheal any damage I attempt as a Ilvl 2,841 GWF (wearing the New PVP gear, and with Pure Vorpal.)
old bug with Restoring strike, if u use restoring strike with the elemental pvp set 1 stack from the set bonus will go to you. so you get a debuff of 5% movement by using a restoring strike..
btw: whats with the nerf on the encounter damage?
and no patchnotes?
They boosted GF's damage by 20%. With this change GF certainly outdamages sentinel GWF. On top of that GF has a lot more and much better utility skills and survivability.
They boosted GF's damage by 20%. With this change GF certainly outdamages sentinel GWF. On top of that GF has a lot more and much better utility skills and survivability.
I give up. Rolling a DC now.
What i don't get is why not boost the OP dps also i didn't even think GF needed another dps buff
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
- The Sentinel is now completely useless, cant kill a darn thing
- The Destroyer lost like 50% of his damage. Strangely enough the patch notes didnt even mention any GWF changes.
Again you guys at Cryptic manage to alienate me. Good job!
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
You know what's funny? Not only the current GWF is SO incredibly gear dependant and can't preform without fully orange items to even compete with other classes in both PVE and PVP, they made temp HP rely on bonus damage, even further making the class gear dependant. Got less than 10k power? You're screwed. Not fully BIS? Die buddy, nothing else you can do.
I will not be surprised if low geared GWF's will get kicked out of parties or not be wanted due to low performance next mod. It's horrible as it is right now, but not being able to tank for your own due to insufficient gear will probably be the last straw.
FEEDBACK after more testing at lvl 70 in pvp. Both Open World, 3v3, and domination:
Well, I have done more testing on the PTR. Some 1v1s, 2v2s and even a few of the new 3v3 que. I tried to get against the DEVs yet was unsuccessful.
At lvl 70 what we see now are:
DCs that literally you cannot deal any damage to (as destroyer) thus are unable to gain any determination.
TRs that you cannot catch, because of their INSANE run speed. Even if you somehow DO they can ITC out, and shocking execute you for 60-70k+ while I currently have 120k HP, it goes away VERY quickly once down to the 40k range due to TR damage boosts at low HP (and piercing damage) while my ONLY shot at catching them is a random FLS to get close, even then the stun is over before I can even sprint TO them, without even taking into consideration wind up for IBS.
1v1 vs a TR - you will lose 100% of the time. Period.
GFs that if they play smart will block the entire time you try and DPS them, then bull charge you prone and rely on reflect+procs to kill you.
HRs that have a bugged (I Hope) Feat (Fox's Cunning) that dodges EVERYTHING for 10 seconds...
The only class I could reliable beat were other GWFs LOL!
Our damage is PATHETIC. Even with FULL destroyer capstone stacks up AND 3x Destroyer FEAT stacks up The highest crit I saw was 20k in PVP. My IBS with full stacks HITS for 13k... I feel as if I do LESS damage than module 3 GWF however all you opponents have 3x the HP as they did then.
Now, there are ALOT of things that honestly need fixing, but I have already detailed out what I firmly believe this class needs thus I will quote it again.....
There are (from what I see) TWO MAJOR areas and TWO MINOR area that need improvement. I will continue to repost them to have the best chance of getting seen.
MAJOR area 1: Unstoppable Temp HP - Any change/buff to the amount of Temp HP we gain is going to be NEARLY impossible to balance for both PVE and PVP. The Temp HP from Unstoppable needs to NOT be affected by healing depression. This gives you a fair amount for both PVE and PVP. It can either be: too good for PVE but balanced in PVP OR balanced for PVE but horrible for PVP. It cannot be both with Healing Depression.
Now there actually IS a way to get around this in PVP/PVE: number of hits. In PVE TYPICALLY you take less hits per second than in active combat in PVP. So you could in theory do something like this:
- Unstoppable now grants 5% temp HP each time you are struck while in unstoppable.Now in PVP this would only be 2.5% however it could proc off Dots as well. When you ARE hit things like DoTs, weapon enchants, procs all would assist this number while in PVE it would actually stay relatively balanced.
The only issue is it may actually be TOO powerful at 5% (I would need to test this) thus maybe something like 4% might be more inline - either way it would greatly increase what the GWF needs at this point in time - survival tools. Note this would need to NOT have an ICD otherwise your back to square 1: OP in PVE and UP(underpowered) in PVP. Or if it DOES have an ICD, it would need to be buffed up to like 10%+ per hit NETTING you 5% per hit in PVP per second...
MAJOR area 2: Damage Stacks - NO other class is as reliant upon stacks as the GWF. In fact no other class has such pathetic BASE damage than the GWF. Now I know what many people suggest: buff the base damage. I would tend to agree but this would require ALOT of balance re-work. What SEEMS to be a much easier/better approach is to modify our stacks to make them more reliable with more uptime.
ISSUES: Instagators Capstone - only lasts 6 seconds?! You are relying on BEING struck to gain stacks.
Destroyers Capstone - Lasts 25 seconds (good!) however you ONLY gain stacks while IN unstoppable and you dont deal good base damage THUS, are ALSO reliant upon TAKING damage to even have a CHANCE to gain stacks.
Destroyer (feat) - GREAT damage bonus, however takes up a feature slot AND stacks only last about 3-4 seconds. This feat is nearly impossible to get any benefit out of in PVP, while it CAN be great for PVE - due to mobs not having the "AI" to know to "kite" you.
Weapon Master (feat) - Not as bad as Destroyer but its still bad. Get a class to "dodge" 2x and you just lost your stacks.
These FOUR are the issues with stacking.
What can be done?
Well for starters: Instagators Capstone - This can remain as "being struck" however give a MUCH longer uptime on the stacks. It needs to be in the range of 8-10 seconds OR what I think would be even better is base the stack time on "in-combat" time. Stacks last as long as you remain in combat - regardless of being struck. THUS if you take 5 hits at the beginning of a fight, but never get struck again, atleast you got your damage buffs up so that you can DEAL damage again keeping you in combat, thus keeping your stacks.
Destroyers Capstone - There are a few options here. I actually have gone back on forth on them but will list them both here. First, these need to NOT be tied to Unstoppable. You should be able to get stacks at ANY time. We can keep the stacks at 10 total. Now with the increased stacking 25 seconds seems much too easy so option #1 would be the same as the above - they fall off when you LEAVE combat. As long as you are IN combat you keep them. Thus even if you are CC'd Kited around you stay in combat thus keeping stacks making it balanced for PVP. Second option, Make this stacking mechanic LIKE the new "Negation" in that each stack has its OWN "duration". You can even keep this duration upwards of 15+ seconds since it takes several seconds to even get TO max stacks. What this does is allows for faster stacking however still makes the GWF STAY in combat or he starts to lose those stacks.
Destroyer (Feat) Stacks:This one can also mimic the above. Either you gain stacks as you do currently and they last while IN combat. Or you could even increase the duration up to about 8 seconds. My only dis-like about having them tied to a set duration and not "in combat" status is if you are kited or use abilities like "Avalanche of Steel" you can easily lose your stacks.
Weapon Master (Feat):Again same as Destroyer Stacks. IN combat or drastically increased duration. I am not talking going from 5 to 6 seconds here. I am talking about 8-10 seconds at a MINIMUM. These low duration stacks hardly affect PVE AT ALL! However it is a MASSIVE impact to the class for PVP.
MINOR area 1: Stamina Gain This has already been PROVEN. GWFs have horrible stamina GAIN. Now this is a fine line because too much regen and we can STACK more regen and become "The Flash" sprinting everywhere having CC immunity and increased DR. However its safe to say what we have NOW is not enough.
Currently we can sprint for about 5 seconds with a full bar. If we stack ~19% stamina regen it takes about 18 seconds to regen back. Versus a TR who has 4 dodges however only stacking ~9% stamina regen can get his full meter back in under 16 seconds. So CLEARLY we need atleast a LITTLE boost to stamina gain.
Other Suggestions (that are pretty good imo) are to give an "insta" stamina regen if we pop unstoppable. This could easily be in the range of 25-50% based upon determination. This allows the GWF to use their stamina DEFENSIVELY without worrying about having to SAVE determination to use during unstoppable to try and CATCH someone. This would be in leiu of the stamina regen increase since we could use our 5+ seconds outside unstoppable and get a free 1-2 seconds during unstoppable.
MINOR area 2: Determination Gain - This is another area that got a significant nerf. I think something that will HELP this issue though (and why its minor IMO IF the other areas are implemented) are that damage buffs would be easier to obtain and temp HP boosts would also help us after our first unstoppable pop - potentially.
However there is still ONE thing I would like to see changed about how GWFs get this mechanic in general.
ALL GWFs, regardless of spec, should generate determination when DEALING damage. This is something that should not be pegged specifically to the Destroyer Class. That one change along with the other 3 above, would really help this class altogether.
CONCLUSION Now I can ASSURE you even if implementing EVERYTHING I suggested here to the TEE, you will NOT create a monster class. All you will honestly do is make the GWF back on par with other classes. Our PVE DPS would be up a LITTLE, our tankiness improved slightly - to offset our in combat regen loss, however its PVP where this class would finally be back to "competitive" again. We would have much more reliable tools in OUR kit to combat opponents. We would have easier acess to damage boosts as well as now dealing damage helps determination gain. We would get solid temp HP if an opponent is really attacking us and we would even have a little more mobility too.
NONE of this will make the class too OP, NONE of this requires DRASTIC changes to the class. I think that is key here. You could literally do ALL of the above VERY easily:
Temp HP:Gain 5% each time you are struck during unstoppable. Similar "coding" would be "Wilds Medicine" - which is a HoT and based on deflects. This would be the same however WITHOUT the ICD. Either that or remove the impact of healing depression on the Temp HP - This you already know how to do since the old PVP T1 Set had a set bonus that was getting around HD so obviously its possible... My guess is it wasnt "coded" as a "heal"
Stacking:Generally, ALL stacks should be based on "in combat" status and fall off only after we LEAVE combat. This works well with the new regen change and allows the GWF to not fear "being kited" and losing all their damage boosts - which are the ONLY thing making the class even SEEM like its balanced (when we DO have the stacks) but lose them and we are a joke.....
Stamina:Boost to stamina regen rate, OR possible look at other alternatives like restoring stamina on Unstoppable Pop.
Determination:ALL GWFs should inherently build determination when DEALING damage. This should not be pegged to Destroyers ONLY.
I stacked Power, Destroyer feat stacks, destroyer capstone stacks and a Trans Feytouched enchant for as much +damage boost as I could possibly muster.
Had a guildmate opposed to me in a pvp 3v3 matchup and I literally set up a scenario where I had all the buffs we can muster.
The most Temp HP I could proc, with a FULL unstoppable Bar, full stacks, full damage stacking etc was <13k HP. This is with a total HP pool of 120k.
Now, when I was in trade of blades I somehow mustered to get over +50k Temp HP, however that same scenario in PVP it was cut down MUCH shorter than just the 50% that healing depression does.
So getting 12k Temp HP as the BEST we can do with FULL damage AND a FULL determination meter.... Seems rather pathetic if you ask me....
i've been having fun with my alt TR since mod 5 release, I realized their TAB ability (stealth) gets so much support and has lots of synergy from their feats and encounters while GWFs don't.
some examples:
Shadow Strike - Fills Stealth Bar - GWF doesn't have any of that
Bait and Switch - Fills Stealth Bar - GWF doesn't have any of that
Improved Cunning Sneak - Your Stealth last 20% longer - GWF doesn't have any of that
Twilight Adept - Restores 10% of your Stealth when you dodge roll - GWF doesn't have any of that
those are just few examples, they have more abilities that has synergy with their TAB ability. Our Heroic Feats needs rework too. Feats like Grit and Ubiquitous Shield doesnt make sense, they give so little help to our survivability, even the Armor Specialization Feat is nothing too because of the introduction of piercing damage.
some changes I would suggest:
Daring Shout gives a full Determination Bar(when you hit at least 1 target) - seems reasonable since Daring Shout has a very long cooldown, so its not spammable.
Armor Specialization - change this to add deflect severity instead
Fleet Footed (T1 Instigator Feat) - Whenever you are in unstoppable you gain additional run speed
Scale Agility (T1 Sentinel Feat) now also adds 15% deflect severity while in unstoppable (while retaining the old bonus)
STR - every point beyond 10 gives 2% bonus damage (up from 1%)
I'd also like to see PvP sets that has synergy with our TAB like giving bonus determination gain or something that interacts with unstoppable.
You know what's funny? Not only the current GWF is SO incredibly gear dependant and can't preform without fully orange items to even compete with other classes in both PVE and PVP, they made temp HP rely on bonus damage, even further making the class gear dependant. Got less than 10k power? You're screwed. Not fully BIS? Die buddy, nothing else you can do.
I will not be surprised if low geared GWF's will get kicked out of parties or not be wanted due to low performance next mod. It's horrible as it is right now, but not being able to tank for your own due to insufficient gear will probably be the last straw.
Exactly. also look at the wiki description haha.
"This class relies on brute strength alone to overcome the enemies. They are warriors who sacrifice shields in favor of large two-handed weapons. While mainly being an offensive class, Great Weapon Fighters still have considerable defense by carrying scale armour."
Brute strength, sure, we have the highest damage weapon in the game, but we also have some of the worst base damage on our skills and easy to dodge abilities.
Considerable Defense, LOL. no, we dont have considerable defence, unstoppable is a joke after all the nerfs it got, and with all the piercing damage and HIGH base damage of other stuff, we are basically a soggy piece of paper.
all this makes me want to meet gwf dev in some dark alley....
this class has nothing
damage - ok-ish for pve, 0 for pvp
cc - not worth mentioning
utility - none
defense - cw is tankier than a gwf
mobility - stamina gain sucks
all this makes me want to meet gwf dev in some dark alley....
this class has nothing
damage - ok-ish for pve, 0 for pvp
cc - not worth mentioning
utility - none
defense - cw is tankier than a gwf
mobility - stamina gain sucks
They are asking for it arent they
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
all this makes me want to meet gwf dev in some dark alley....
this class has nothing
damage - ok-ish for pve, 0 for pvp
cc - not worth mentioning
utility - none
defense - cw is tankier than a gwf
mobility - stamina gain sucks
Makes me feel like I should give up on the game in general, I started on my rogue and the damage increase is ridicuous even when the rogue is 6000 gearscore less, and far lower enchants etc, but i've spent so much on my GWF I feel like cutting my losses and going elsewhere to spend money / time.
I've spent Far more on this game that i feel was necessary, enough that I actually didnt go out to the pub or with friends some weeks and instead spent "leisure" money on the game. Yet a character I have spent nothing on does higher dps in general, and even over prolonged periods than this prized character I took so long on.
Since mod 3 there has been basically NO reason to play GWF, other than potentially spending even more to gear up for Intimidation build (which is being nerfed, so why should I bother) They could bring back ALL the bugs/buffs that used to make us OP, and we'd still be subpar to most other classes in almost every way
- iNTIMIDATION MAKE IT RESPECT ARMOR PENETRATION. Bring the amplifiers back (MARK , COMBAT ADVANTAGE , CRIT ) and if the weapon damage of the elemetnal legendary weapon is 2000, the intimidation damage should be 175% out of weapon damage. but if you want to haveo nly damage bonus as amplifier, than you need to increase the intimidation wepaon damage up to 200%-250% , and it should respect armor penetration..
- Daring Shout and Come and Get it should get 2-3 seconds shorter, it's a must.
- Daring shout and come and get it should buff nearest allies and yourself too.
TEMPORARY HITPOINTS FROM UNSTOPABLE
you get 40%-60% out of your MAX HP as TEMPORARY HITPOINTS THAT PERSISTS AFTER UNSTOPABLE IS OVER. after by HD in PVP its 20%-30% out of your max HP.
OR 20-30% out of max HP that aren't affected by Healing Depressions.
meaning that GWF will have like 100k \ 30k tempHP.
its not okai at all to get 11.000 hp / 50% damage bonus. what were you thinking ?
Stamina regeneration and DOT resist should be tripled from STR. forget about dmg bonus.
Destroyer.
-Destroyer class feat should not work on hit and stack system, you should get 1 stack per enemy that is in a 50-70' radius.
-Unfettered Strikes should work as the tier4 icewind boon, when you loose stamina, ur run speed should be increased, so u will gain some movement when you wont hv stamina left to sprint.
- Destroyer Purpose besides dmg bonus that it will grant, it should give PIERCING DAMAGE. exactly as shadow of opportunity a TR sabotuer paragon feat.
the damage on encounters at lvl 70 is pathetic.
Restoring Strike/ Grand fissure / Hidden blades / mighty leap etc
I'd also like to add COME AND GET IT is a bad utility encounter, it pulls up to 5 enemies in a 30' range and adds a flat +10/+20/+30/+40% damage per level on your next attack for the next 3 seconds. It has a long cooldown, so I don't really get the essence of this encounter, slotting this makes us lose a lot of dps.
My suggestion for the rework of this encounter is; it adds +10/+20/+30/+40% on your attacks for the next 5 seconds, and make the pull a real CC, like a 1 second daze, because right now even trample the fallen doesn't benefit from come and get it's pull.
thanks
As i said on a previous post: our best pet will be Minsc himself: He deals far more damage than "us" with his Wicked Strike and his Boar Charge. So, TBH, im feeling that we are wasting our time "testing" GWF-class because not a single dev is following our feedback at all... and only buffs they did are too late in best case scenario (at-wills damage buff) or totally useless on worst case scenario (new powers, new encounters, new feats, "rework" on Unstop and so on)
EDIT: Also, is our own fault too, because in example, Effect is just "spamming" what he want for Intimidation, which is wrong, because Tank path should not deal damage at all, but TANK (you are so used to be IV. Sent, sorry, mate and you should change that) or, worse yet, Ayroux keep telling devs that, in example, stamina gaining to "sprint often" will make the class viable again while had nailed some REAL problems with the class (stacks and damage).
No offense, but i will say this again: Sometimes, i feel like i am the only one whose play a GWF-char at all...
No offense but everyone has a different vision of GWF. Thinking that only your feedback is reliable is a foul move. There are more than a few problems with GWF ane more than a few ways to improve them. Point is devs don't care when they don't feel it themselves.
Thus, I've closed my wallet, stripped my GWF down and am leveling a DC now. Also I will move to another mmo the first chance I get.
I'm seeing an awful lot of whining about how unplayable GWF is in Module 6. But when running content with other GWF's they seem perfectly useful and viable to me.
I'm a CW. Last night I teamed up with a GWF, DC, and TR to do some Heroic Encounters in Icewind Dale. All four of us were relatively equally geared. We all had the new Elemental Fire main-hand at legendary, all had perfect or better enchantments, etc. None of us were scrubs and were were all there for the entire fight. Here is the parse from the Elk Tribe Druid HE in Dwarven Valley:
I've held back the names of the other people I was with in case they don't want to be identified. But the GWF did a huge amount of damage--much more than the TR and myself (CW)--he never died, and afterward was very pleased with where the class was at.
Frankly, if you're really, really unhappy with where the GWF class is at in Mod 6 to the point that you think it is unplayable, it's not because the class is bad. The problem is elsewhere.
Edit: I went and located the GWF in this parse to confirm that they were level 70 and not just scaled up to level 70. They are, indeed, level 70.
I've held back the names of the other people I was with in case they don't want to be identified. But the GWF did a huge amount of damage--much more than the TR and myself (CW)--he never died, and afterward was very pleased with where the class was at.
Frankly, if you're really, really unhappy with where the GWF class is at in Mod 6 to the point that you think it is unplayable, it's not because the class is bad. The problem is elsewhere.
that shows only 1 aspect of the game - pure dps in party content, the problem is in other places
in pvp gwf doesnt have the tools needed, and even in party content its much easier to carry a party with smth like cw than with gwf
I'm seeing an awful lot of whining about how unplayable GWF is in Module 6. But when running content with other GWF's they seem perfectly useful and viable to me.
I'm a CW. Last night I teamed up with a GWF, DC, and TR to do some Heroic Encounters in Icewind Dale. All four of us were relatively equally geared. We all had the new Elemental Fire main-hand at legendary, all had perfect or better enchantments, etc. None of us were scrubs and were were all there for the entire fight. Here is the parse from the Elk Tribe Druid HE in Dwarven Valley:
*Snip Image*
I've held back the names of the other people I was with in case they don't want to be identified. But the GWF did a huge amount of damage--much more than the TR and myself (CW)--he never died, and afterward was very pleased with where the class was at.
Frankly, if you're really, really unhappy with where the GWF class is at in Mod 6 to the point that you think it is unplayable, it's not because the class is bad. The problem is elsewhere.
And this is EXACTLY why ALL We need are tools like "improved stacking"
Because in PVE I dont think GWFs have an issue, because mobs dont KITE you. MOBS dont even really CC you.
Do you know what happens in PVP when you try and get destroyer stacks up, but you get rooted or stunned or worse, DAZED? your destroyer stacks FALL OFF.
As I mentioned before as well, Temp HP is FINE in PVE, there is no healing depression. Enter PVP though and even if you set up an IDEAL scenario with ALL the damage buffs you can muster and A FULL unstoppable bar, you get 12k Temp HP.... Thats NOTHING!!! LIke 2 CoS daggers completely annihilate all that Temp HP...
Also do you really NEED stamina in PVE? Not REALLY. Its nice to get out in front of your group and its also nice to use to try and avoid some bigger hits. But go into PVP and thats where you notice the stamina gain issue. Because you use your sprint to get TO a target (like a TR for instance) only to have them dodge away then WHOOPS! NO stamina left!
Also in PVE, you can "mark" a target and essentially FORCE them to attack you, in PVP there is none of this and so you have a VERY hard time building determinaton unless someone actually attacks you. There is no AGRO in PVP.
So long story short, ALL of the aspects of PVE that seem fine, when you actually look at the differences in combat between GWF in PVE versus PVP you see FOUR areas where GWF falls short:
1) Temp HP from Unstoppable - WITH healing depression it hurts too much. It needs to be removed and also would be BETTER to have it not based on damage bonuses but a flat set number for all GWFs.
2) Stacking - in PVE its easy to keep destroyer stacks or weapon master stacks up. Heck you can easily fight 3+ mobs no problem and just do 1 AoE. Do you know how hard it is to get even 2 stacks in PVP? Pretty dang hard considering all a CW needs to do is repel you and by the time you make it back to attack them, stacks are gone.
3) Determination Gain -again in PVE easier to get, you can force mobs to attack through "agro" - but you cant FORCE players to attack you in pvp. Thus GL building it and when you do, its because your being focused and chances are will die soon.
4) Stamina Gain -again not apparent in PVE because you cant sprint + DPS. Most of the time youll have a healer and wont NEED to sprint for very long, by the time your group clears the mobs, stamina is back up. However go into a PVP match, and you will see how pathetic our stamina gain really is. How classes dodge 2-3 times and can outpace and out dodge your 5 seconds of sprint.
All of these aspects will NOT be apparent in any PVE dungeon.
That said it keeps coming back to these FOUR areas that the GWF needs addressing:
1) Temp HP -NOT good enough in PVP. Suggestions are to remove healing depression OR make it a function of X% Temp HP each time you are struck (you are struck more often in PVP thus it ends up being about equal even with healing depression).
2) Stacking -This is probably the biggest issue. The class is really on "viable" (if you want to call it viable LOL) when they have full stacks up. However destroyer feat stacks make up a large chunk of our damage and if we have ANY interruptions at all, CCd, Dazed, Proned - you name it, heck even our OWN abilities like Avalanche of Steel remove our Destroyer and Weapon Master stacks due to animation time... To me this is just silly and a LARGE part of why GWFs fail in PVP however can seemingly succeed in PVE.
3) Determination -Again there IS agro in pve, you can rush ahead and force mobs to attack you, there is NO agro in PVP. Think about that for a second... GWFs are really DPS classes. How many other DPS classes are FORCED to have someone attack them before they can deal any damage. Imagine if CW's shield gave them a debuff where they did HALF their damage if the shield is at full strength and only when the shield was broken did they deal full damage. I mean everyone would say its "not fair" that it "ruins the point of the ability" - well this is what it feels like playing a GWF. We run into battle and hit with a wet noodle until someone attacks us, then we are allowed to DPS (because we finally gained enough determination for unstoppable TO gain stacks) until we get controlled and lose our destroyer stacks? Yes we get to keep Destroyer capstone stacks, but we lose destroyer FEAT stacks... It makes no sense.... We should GAIN more damage the more we are controlled, we should hit HARDER the more damage we take, but thats not how it works. We must take damage to then get a CHANCE To gain stacks - if not kited around. Even once we get our capstone, we STILL dont hit very hard until we get our Destroyer FEAT stacks up... Which are lost in just seconds if we have any interruption to our attacks. Its not just because of the low duration but beacuse we only get a small % chance to gain stacks as well. Meaning even if you WERE attacking, if RNG wasnt on your side, you wont gain stacks.
4) Stamina - As detailed above, its more a matter of movement. You could accomplish the same thing EITHER reducing the TR run speed or buffing GWFs stamina. Since this is a GWF thread I say buff stamina, however if you removed Sneak Attack for TRs and instead gave them LONGER stealth, GWFs would probably be in a much much more fair position. Its only when TRs can outrun everything/everyone even mounts where the GWF's inability to keep up shows. Even Unfettered Strikes - which is a BIG help towards most classes really help, but when a TR can use 1 dodge and be invisible, and have more movement than my mount? How can I catch them with a mere 5 seconds of sprint every 18 seconds? Not saying we should lock down TRs but I mean... why do they gain so much movement IN stealth?
One more time, this is not a discussion thread. If you wish to debate the feedback of others, please do so in a thread other than the official feedback thread.
Also, do adhere to the specified format for feedback/bugs. If your post fails to meet this criteria, it will be moved without further notice into the Abyss, where you are free to modify and repost your feedback or bug report so that it complies with the provided format.
This will serve as the final public notice in this thread for this matter. Do not respond or reply to this notice, but use the PM system to address your concerns.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
We should GAIN more damage the more we are controlled, we should hit HARDER the more damage we take, but thats not how it works.
Have you played City of Heroes/Villains ? There was this Archetype(class) there called Brute. Brutes were what GWFs in Neverwinter should be. Brutes had this inherent class mechanic called Fury. Here is how it worked, from the CoH wiki:
"As a Brute engages in combat, it unleashes his Fury. The longer he remains in combat, attacking and being attacked, the more damage he deals.
A Brute's Fury level is shown by an orange bar between Endurance and Experience Points. It rises each time he makes an attack or is attacked himself (regardless of hit or miss). The speed at which it rises is directly proportional to the recklessness of the Brute. "
Basically it was a flat % damage boost which kept bulding up till hittin' cap for as long as you were fighiting. It worked like a charm. Since Cryptic already knows how to do this thing properly I dont know why they keep failing here.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Right now, on test, a GWF can get around 110k HP poll with 20k on power just aiming for power [stats from a GWF i just saw on test Trade of Blades] . Is that bad for a TANK? i dont think so.
Actually yeah it is, because GWFs need about 100% damage bonus to deal the damage other classes get. So a GWF with 20k Power is the same as another class with like 8k Power.
The plain fact of the matter is that GWFs BASE damage is so bad, and each module they "bandaid" it by adding more and more damage buffs without addressing the REAL problem: BASE damage.
They added +20% Mark damage boost, We get like 12+% from CA, we get 15%+ from Powerful Challenge and EVEN WITH all of that, the class STILL does <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> DPS. Shoot even with full Destroyer stacks up at 50% MORE damage boost we still do mediocre damage. Its only when you add ANOTHER 60%+ damage from the Detroyer FEAT in PVE that you see GOOD damage.
So you could literally give the Sentinel GWF 200:1 meaning Power:1% Damage, lets Sent GWFS stack up to 20k Power which would be 100% damage boost and they would STILL get massively OUT DPSd by nearly ANY class AND STILL be much more squishy than TRs/Hrs/CWs/DCs/GFs etc....
You cant just look at raw stats because GWFs seem like Monsters.
120k+ HP, 20k Power, 40%+ Deflect, 40%+ Crit(weapon Master) You might be thinking "whats the problem? look at all of this"
Fact of the matter is though. 20k Power means NOTHING with our horrible base damage.
The issue though, if they increase base damage they will HAVE to nerf Detroyer for PVE purposes. If they do this as well, GWF is not even good in PVP at all, so buffing all the base damage will STILL not address the PVP issues, nerfing Destroyer will STILL not make them viable in PVP or balanced in PVP itll just make them worse.
This is why I keep saying we need to pick and choose what to give feedback on. They will not re-work out class, only minor changes so we need to be VERY precise with feedback.
FEEDBACK: INTIMIDATION
- Deals too low damage right now. Needs to be brought up to about 250% Weapon damage AND damage bonuses need to work with it (like it does on live). I dont like it working off power.
I could ALSO see this ability instead transformed into a DPS mechanic rather than a "burst" so it would work more like DCs "Fire of the Gods" where it deals 100% weapon damage every second for 15 seconds.
Given that this is off a LONG CD and NOT a crit it seems fair. ALSO this removes the benefit of slotting TWO "intimidation" abilities since it would only proc once and would NOT stack.
This seems like the most reasonable as it does good DPS, is NOT a burst damage ability BUT! It removes that you can use it 2x and would only get real benefit from ONE encounter - each has their own benefits.
I know, i were the first one to tell you all that our base damage were nerfed, remember? but we are talking about "22k base damage power" to use intimidation feat, not as "GWF's base damage". I talk about "base damage buff" on other point on my buffs. +30% + double damage on Unstop shall do the trick here.
But noone of this will happen, they wont make drastic changes to the class THIS close to a module. Now maybe if your proposing this for module 7 or 8, but then again who knows what will happen by that time....
If they want to fix intimidation, honestly the best way to do it is to just copy another classes mechanic like DCs "fire of the Gods" but DCs feat is off a crit, ours would be off an ability. So its pretty fair IMO. 100% weapon damage every second for 15 seconds. Done. Same coding as DC feat but instead of off a proc its off CAGI or DS.
For the REST of the class while (again) there are a million things we can propose and fix. At the end of the day we need to look at the path of least resistance. For ALL GWFS that is:
1) Temp HP from Unstoppable -Needs to either be NOT affected by HD or it needs to be based on number of hits - allowing for ABOUT the same amount of Temp HP both in PVE and PVP. This is too much of a crutch for the class, if you over buff it itll be FAR too good in PVE and good in PVP or it will be good in PVE but suck in PVP - where it is now.
As mentioned before BEST case scenario that I CONSTRUCTED in pvp with the help of teammates. I got <13k Temp HP from a FULL unstoppable bar. With the MOST damage buffs our class can muster. This is NOT enough. Especially considering that NO GWF will ever yhave the luxury of WAITING to use unstoppable for a FULL Bar.
This could also fall under the category of a BUG since Destroyer stacks + Destroyer Captsone + Power + STR put me WELL about 100% damage bonus, We are SUPPOSED To get 8-16% * damage bonus. On a Target Dummy I was able to get a TON of Temp HP (like 50k+) but in PVP best case is 13k? Temp HP?
OH For this 13k I was also using Trans FeyTouched which would have been another 18% however that didnt seem to apply EITHER.
For ALL these reasons instead of fixing coding/bugs etc or worrying about damage bonus balance, just make it a FLAT 4-5% EITHER per second (not affected by HD) or PER HIT (WITH HD - potentialyl with a .5 second ICD allowing for proper #s in pvp)
2) Stacking - NO other class is FORCED to rely on stacking like we are. The biggest issues are weapon master stacks and Destroyer stacks, they are FAR too short for PVP purposes. THis is something DPS tests or PVE tests CANNOT show you. The stacks needs to last 8+ seconds each OR last the entire duration you are in combat.
Second to this are Destroyer Capstone stacks - should NOT be reliant on Unstoppable. Should build them anytime anywhere off any attack and last the same as above 8+ seconds.
Instagator stacks - again only last a few seconds after getting attacked? Great in PVE however you cant FORCE someone to attack you in PVP. These need a MASSIVE increase in duration. 10+ Seconds MINIMUM.
3) Determination - ALL GWFs need to build determination off DEALING damage. PERIOD. This should not be restricted to the Destroyer class.
4) Stamina Gain -Our stamina gain is the WORST of ANY class. We get 5 seconds to sprint every 20+ seconds. Even stacking stamina gain does next to nothing for us.
Possible solutions are to give insta- stamina refill each unstoppable pop. Another was to increase the BASE gain. Another was to make STR = 2% stam gain up from 1%. OR yet ANOTHER could be to rework "Fast Runner" to be JUST like "Fleet Footed" for TR - a 10% stamina gain boost.
ALl are possible options.
OVERALL GWFs NEED: 1) Better Temp HP from unstoppable IN PVP - preferably NOT tied to damage bonus.
2) Better "stacking system" - with a LARGE LARGE LARGE amount of damage reliant upon stacks, the current "stacking" system is VERY poor.
3) Better CONTROL over our access to Unstoppable - not just HP % lost but damage dealt as well (preferably on a PRE-DR basis too BTW)
4) Better Stamina Gain Currently its VERY bad in PVP.
Then FINALLY we DO need a FIX to Intimidation, so again. Just make it like Fire of the Gods for DCs: 100% weapon damage every second for 15 seconds. Copy/Paste the coding. Itll be GOOD DPS that procs off an ECOUNTER - rather than a CRIT (like DCs) And actualyl FREE UP a slot for GWFs -encounters who run this.
Comments
the destroyer/instigator gets far more than the sentinel, because they have more damage bonus (capstones).
so scaling out of damage bonus is another bad idea, when you just could've increased the % out of max HP .
feedback : Sentinel
- iNTIMIDATION damage needs his amplifiers back, its damage is to small , fighting against players who have 100.000 HP, an sentinel is hitting them 2k - 6k crit, this is laughable, just bring back the amplifiers. leave it scaled on weapon damage, 125% out of 2000 weapon damage it's 2.500 base damage for intimidation, i just hoped we had at least 3500 base damage. maybe tommorow patch will give what i hoped for.
meaning that our weapon damage at BIS should be around 2.700-2900, and 125% is truly fair, if not increase it to 175%.
- Daring Shout and Come and Get it should get 2-3 seconds shorter, it's a must.
- After GWF uses a DAring shout he will buff his allies with Damage REsistance.
After GWF uses COme and Get it he will buff his allies with Flat Damage %.
TEMPORARY HITPOINTS FROM UNSTOPABLE
you get 40%-60% out of your MAX HP as TEMPORARY HITPOINTS THAT PERSISTS AFTER UNSTOPABLE IS OVER.
after by HD in PVP its 20%-30% out of your max HP.
so out of 100k hp its 20.000 hp as temporary hitpoints, and 30.000 temporary hitpoints this change should be made.
its not okai at all to get 11.000 hp / 50% damage bonus. what were you thinking ?
It just needs to be like 20-40% and NOT be affected by HD at all. So at 100k hp in both PvE and PvP you get 40k at full deter. and 20 at half. that'd be fine for both pve and pvp.
Bigger problem in pvp is how hard it is to lock a good player down. bad players stand still so we can hit them, a goodplayer will just kite us.
I'm really concerned about the output at 70 in PvE though, 60 being scaled to 70 seemed ok. but actually at 70 Tanks are really weak other than the Paladin (who basically cant die unless your team focussed them, Good tank is good)
Feedback : Grand Fissure
The damage on this is a joke. ~3k base at level 70 with 13k power? Hidden daggers hits twice as hard, has 3 charges, AND is easier to land. This power should be like near IBS damage with the animation and the length of time it takes to cast.
Feedback : PVP Damage output
So.. An Ilvl 1,482 Oathbound paladin( wearing basic greens and low level enchants), can outheal any damage I attempt as a Ilvl 2,841 GWF (wearing the New PVP gear, and with Pure Vorpal.)
A maxed out 100% BiS Gf, can kill me simply from reflect damage (nothing else) without even losing 10% hp.
This does not sound like a good balance.
Feedback : GWF and Heoric Epics
Attempted "Easy" level Heoric epics in IwP and In WoD. Solo, had no chance at all, Watched a TR solo it with far higher damage output after my third death happened. I'm starting to think our entire class is just flawed beyond repair and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Be more specific Oathbound "devoted" paladin.
btw: whats with the nerf on the encounter damage?
and no patchnotes?
I give up. Rolling a DC now.
What i don't get is why not boost the OP dps also i didn't even think GF needed another dps buff
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
if you dont want ppl to play gwf just say so and remove class from game
- The Sentinel is now completely useless, cant kill a darn thing
- The Destroyer lost like 50% of his damage. Strangely enough the patch notes didnt even mention any GWF changes.
Again you guys at Cryptic manage to alienate me. Good job!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Official or ninja nerf ?
I will not be surprised if low geared GWF's will get kicked out of parties or not be wanted due to low performance next mod. It's horrible as it is right now, but not being able to tank for your own due to insufficient gear will probably be the last straw.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
Well, I have done more testing on the PTR. Some 1v1s, 2v2s and even a few of the new 3v3 que. I tried to get against the DEVs yet was unsuccessful.
At lvl 70 what we see now are:
DCs that literally you cannot deal any damage to (as destroyer) thus are unable to gain any determination.
TRs that you cannot catch, because of their INSANE run speed. Even if you somehow DO they can ITC out, and shocking execute you for 60-70k+ while I currently have 120k HP, it goes away VERY quickly once down to the 40k range due to TR damage boosts at low HP (and piercing damage) while my ONLY shot at catching them is a random FLS to get close, even then the stun is over before I can even sprint TO them, without even taking into consideration wind up for IBS.
1v1 vs a TR - you will lose 100% of the time. Period.
GFs that if they play smart will block the entire time you try and DPS them, then bull charge you prone and rely on reflect+procs to kill you.
HRs that have a bugged (I Hope) Feat (Fox's Cunning) that dodges EVERYTHING for 10 seconds...
The only class I could reliable beat were other GWFs LOL!
Our damage is PATHETIC. Even with FULL destroyer capstone stacks up AND 3x Destroyer FEAT stacks up The highest crit I saw was 20k in PVP. My IBS with full stacks HITS for 13k... I feel as if I do LESS damage than module 3 GWF however all you opponents have 3x the HP as they did then.
Now, there are ALOT of things that honestly need fixing, but I have already detailed out what I firmly believe this class needs thus I will quote it again.....
Oh and BTW,
I stacked Power, Destroyer feat stacks, destroyer capstone stacks and a Trans Feytouched enchant for as much +damage boost as I could possibly muster.
Had a guildmate opposed to me in a pvp 3v3 matchup and I literally set up a scenario where I had all the buffs we can muster.
The most Temp HP I could proc, with a FULL unstoppable Bar, full stacks, full damage stacking etc was <13k HP. This is with a total HP pool of 120k.
Now, when I was in trade of blades I somehow mustered to get over +50k Temp HP, however that same scenario in PVP it was cut down MUCH shorter than just the 50% that healing depression does.
So getting 12k Temp HP as the BEST we can do with FULL damage AND a FULL determination meter.... Seems rather pathetic if you ask me....
some examples:
Shadow Strike - Fills Stealth Bar - GWF doesn't have any of that
Bait and Switch - Fills Stealth Bar - GWF doesn't have any of that
Improved Cunning Sneak - Your Stealth last 20% longer - GWF doesn't have any of that
Twilight Adept - Restores 10% of your Stealth when you dodge roll - GWF doesn't have any of that
those are just few examples, they have more abilities that has synergy with their TAB ability. Our Heroic Feats needs rework too. Feats like Grit and Ubiquitous Shield doesnt make sense, they give so little help to our survivability, even the Armor Specialization Feat is nothing too because of the introduction of piercing damage.
some changes I would suggest:
Daring Shout gives a full Determination Bar(when you hit at least 1 target) - seems reasonable since Daring Shout has a very long cooldown, so its not spammable.
Armor Specialization - change this to add deflect severity instead
Fleet Footed (T1 Instigator Feat) - Whenever you are in unstoppable you gain additional run speed
Scale Agility (T1 Sentinel Feat) now also adds 15% deflect severity while in unstoppable (while retaining the old bonus)
STR - every point beyond 10 gives 2% bonus damage (up from 1%)
I'd also like to see PvP sets that has synergy with our TAB like giving bonus determination gain or something that interacts with unstoppable.
those are just few of my ideas. thank you.
Exactly. also look at the wiki description haha.
"This class relies on brute strength alone to overcome the enemies. They are warriors who sacrifice shields in favor of large two-handed weapons. While mainly being an offensive class, Great Weapon Fighters still have considerable defense by carrying scale armour."
Brute strength, sure, we have the highest damage weapon in the game, but we also have some of the worst base damage on our skills and easy to dodge abilities.
Considerable Defense, LOL. no, we dont have considerable defence, unstoppable is a joke after all the nerfs it got, and with all the piercing damage and HIGH base damage of other stuff, we are basically a soggy piece of paper.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
this class has nothing
damage - ok-ish for pve, 0 for pvp
cc - not worth mentioning
utility - none
defense - cw is tankier than a gwf
mobility - stamina gain sucks
They are asking for it arent they
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Makes me feel like I should give up on the game in general, I started on my rogue and the damage increase is ridicuous even when the rogue is 6000 gearscore less, and far lower enchants etc, but i've spent so much on my GWF I feel like cutting my losses and going elsewhere to spend money / time.
I've spent Far more on this game that i feel was necessary, enough that I actually didnt go out to the pub or with friends some weeks and instead spent "leisure" money on the game. Yet a character I have spent nothing on does higher dps in general, and even over prolonged periods than this prized character I took so long on.
Since mod 3 there has been basically NO reason to play GWF, other than potentially spending even more to gear up for Intimidation build (which is being nerfed, so why should I bother) They could bring back ALL the bugs/buffs that used to make us OP, and we'd still be subpar to most other classes in almost every way
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
- iNTIMIDATION MAKE IT RESPECT ARMOR PENETRATION. Bring the amplifiers back (MARK , COMBAT ADVANTAGE , CRIT ) and if the weapon damage of the elemetnal legendary weapon is 2000, the intimidation damage should be 175% out of weapon damage. but if you want to haveo nly damage bonus as amplifier, than you need to increase the intimidation wepaon damage up to 200%-250% , and it should respect armor penetration..
- Daring Shout and Come and Get it should get 2-3 seconds shorter, it's a must.
- Daring shout and come and get it should buff nearest allies and yourself too.
TEMPORARY HITPOINTS FROM UNSTOPABLE
you get 40%-60% out of your MAX HP as TEMPORARY HITPOINTS THAT PERSISTS AFTER UNSTOPABLE IS OVER. after by HD in PVP its 20%-30% out of your max HP.
OR 20-30% out of max HP that aren't affected by Healing Depressions.
meaning that GWF will have like 100k \ 30k tempHP.
its not okai at all to get 11.000 hp / 50% damage bonus. what were you thinking ?
Stamina regeneration and DOT resist should be tripled from STR. forget about dmg bonus.
Destroyer.
-Destroyer class feat should not work on hit and stack system, you should get 1 stack per enemy that is in a 50-70' radius.
-Unfettered Strikes should work as the tier4 icewind boon, when you loose stamina, ur run speed should be increased, so u will gain some movement when you wont hv stamina left to sprint.
- Destroyer Purpose besides dmg bonus that it will grant, it should give PIERCING DAMAGE. exactly as shadow of opportunity a TR sabotuer paragon feat.
the damage on encounters at lvl 70 is pathetic.
Restoring Strike/ Grand fissure / Hidden blades / mighty leap etc
My suggestion for the rework of this encounter is; it adds +10/+20/+30/+40% on your attacks for the next 5 seconds, and make the pull a real CC, like a 1 second daze, because right now even trample the fallen doesn't benefit from come and get it's pull.
thanks
No offense but everyone has a different vision of GWF. Thinking that only your feedback is reliable is a foul move. There are more than a few problems with GWF ane more than a few ways to improve them. Point is devs don't care when they don't feel it themselves.
Thus, I've closed my wallet, stripped my GWF down and am leveling a DC now. Also I will move to another mmo the first chance I get.
I'm seeing an awful lot of whining about how unplayable GWF is in Module 6. But when running content with other GWF's they seem perfectly useful and viable to me.
I'm a CW. Last night I teamed up with a GWF, DC, and TR to do some Heroic Encounters in Icewind Dale. All four of us were relatively equally geared. We all had the new Elemental Fire main-hand at legendary, all had perfect or better enchantments, etc. None of us were scrubs and were were all there for the entire fight. Here is the parse from the Elk Tribe Druid HE in Dwarven Valley:
I've held back the names of the other people I was with in case they don't want to be identified. But the GWF did a huge amount of damage--much more than the TR and myself (CW)--he never died, and afterward was very pleased with where the class was at.
Frankly, if you're really, really unhappy with where the GWF class is at in Mod 6 to the point that you think it is unplayable, it's not because the class is bad. The problem is elsewhere.
Edit: I went and located the GWF in this parse to confirm that they were level 70 and not just scaled up to level 70. They are, indeed, level 70.
that shows only 1 aspect of the game - pure dps in party content, the problem is in other places
in pvp gwf doesnt have the tools needed, and even in party content its much easier to carry a party with smth like cw than with gwf
And this is EXACTLY why ALL We need are tools like "improved stacking"
Because in PVE I dont think GWFs have an issue, because mobs dont KITE you. MOBS dont even really CC you.
Do you know what happens in PVP when you try and get destroyer stacks up, but you get rooted or stunned or worse, DAZED? your destroyer stacks FALL OFF.
As I mentioned before as well, Temp HP is FINE in PVE, there is no healing depression. Enter PVP though and even if you set up an IDEAL scenario with ALL the damage buffs you can muster and A FULL unstoppable bar, you get 12k Temp HP.... Thats NOTHING!!! LIke 2 CoS daggers completely annihilate all that Temp HP...
Also do you really NEED stamina in PVE? Not REALLY. Its nice to get out in front of your group and its also nice to use to try and avoid some bigger hits. But go into PVP and thats where you notice the stamina gain issue. Because you use your sprint to get TO a target (like a TR for instance) only to have them dodge away then WHOOPS! NO stamina left!
Also in PVE, you can "mark" a target and essentially FORCE them to attack you, in PVP there is none of this and so you have a VERY hard time building determinaton unless someone actually attacks you. There is no AGRO in PVP.
So long story short, ALL of the aspects of PVE that seem fine, when you actually look at the differences in combat between GWF in PVE versus PVP you see FOUR areas where GWF falls short:
1) Temp HP from Unstoppable - WITH healing depression it hurts too much. It needs to be removed and also would be BETTER to have it not based on damage bonuses but a flat set number for all GWFs.
2) Stacking - in PVE its easy to keep destroyer stacks or weapon master stacks up. Heck you can easily fight 3+ mobs no problem and just do 1 AoE. Do you know how hard it is to get even 2 stacks in PVP? Pretty dang hard considering all a CW needs to do is repel you and by the time you make it back to attack them, stacks are gone.
3) Determination Gain - again in PVE easier to get, you can force mobs to attack through "agro" - but you cant FORCE players to attack you in pvp. Thus GL building it and when you do, its because your being focused and chances are will die soon.
4) Stamina Gain - again not apparent in PVE because you cant sprint + DPS. Most of the time youll have a healer and wont NEED to sprint for very long, by the time your group clears the mobs, stamina is back up. However go into a PVP match, and you will see how pathetic our stamina gain really is. How classes dodge 2-3 times and can outpace and out dodge your 5 seconds of sprint.
All of these aspects will NOT be apparent in any PVE dungeon.
1) Temp HP - NOT good enough in PVP. Suggestions are to remove healing depression OR make it a function of X% Temp HP each time you are struck (you are struck more often in PVP thus it ends up being about equal even with healing depression).
2) Stacking - This is probably the biggest issue. The class is really on "viable" (if you want to call it viable LOL) when they have full stacks up. However destroyer feat stacks make up a large chunk of our damage and if we have ANY interruptions at all, CCd, Dazed, Proned - you name it, heck even our OWN abilities like Avalanche of Steel remove our Destroyer and Weapon Master stacks due to animation time... To me this is just silly and a LARGE part of why GWFs fail in PVP however can seemingly succeed in PVE.
3) Determination - Again there IS agro in pve, you can rush ahead and force mobs to attack you, there is NO agro in PVP. Think about that for a second... GWFs are really DPS classes. How many other DPS classes are FORCED to have someone attack them before they can deal any damage.
Imagine if CW's shield gave them a debuff where they did HALF their damage if the shield is at full strength and only when the shield was broken did they deal full damage. I mean everyone would say its "not fair" that it "ruins the point of the ability" - well this is what it feels like playing a GWF.
We run into battle and hit with a wet noodle until someone attacks us, then we are allowed to DPS (because we finally gained enough determination for unstoppable TO gain stacks) until we get controlled and lose our destroyer stacks? Yes we get to keep Destroyer capstone stacks, but we lose destroyer FEAT stacks... It makes no sense.... We should GAIN more damage the more we are controlled, we should hit HARDER the more damage we take, but thats not how it works. We must take damage to then get a CHANCE To gain stacks - if not kited around. Even once we get our capstone, we STILL dont hit very hard until we get our Destroyer FEAT stacks up... Which are lost in just seconds if we have any interruption to our attacks. Its not just because of the low duration but beacuse we only get a small % chance to gain stacks as well. Meaning even if you WERE attacking, if RNG wasnt on your side, you wont gain stacks.
4) Stamina - As detailed above, its more a matter of movement. You could accomplish the same thing EITHER reducing the TR run speed or buffing GWFs stamina. Since this is a GWF thread I say buff stamina, however if you removed Sneak Attack for TRs and instead gave them LONGER stealth, GWFs would probably be in a much much more fair position. Its only when TRs can outrun everything/everyone even mounts where the GWF's inability to keep up shows. Even Unfettered Strikes - which is a BIG help towards most classes really help, but when a TR can use 1 dodge and be invisible, and have more movement than my mount? How can I catch them with a mere 5 seconds of sprint every 18 seconds? Not saying we should lock down TRs but I mean... why do they gain so much movement IN stealth?
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Have you played City of Heroes/Villains ? There was this Archetype(class) there called Brute. Brutes were what GWFs in Neverwinter should be. Brutes had this inherent class mechanic called Fury. Here is how it worked, from the CoH wiki:
"As a Brute engages in combat, it unleashes his Fury. The longer he remains in combat, attacking and being attacked, the more damage he deals.
A Brute's Fury level is shown by an orange bar between Endurance and Experience Points. It rises each time he makes an attack or is attacked himself (regardless of hit or miss). The speed at which it rises is directly proportional to the recklessness of the Brute. "
Basically it was a flat % damage boost which kept bulding up till hittin' cap for as long as you were fighiting. It worked like a charm. Since Cryptic already knows how to do this thing properly I dont know why they keep failing here.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Actually yeah it is, because GWFs need about 100% damage bonus to deal the damage other classes get. So a GWF with 20k Power is the same as another class with like 8k Power.
The plain fact of the matter is that GWFs BASE damage is so bad, and each module they "bandaid" it by adding more and more damage buffs without addressing the REAL problem: BASE damage.
They added +20% Mark damage boost, We get like 12+% from CA, we get 15%+ from Powerful Challenge and EVEN WITH all of that, the class STILL does <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> DPS. Shoot even with full Destroyer stacks up at 50% MORE damage boost we still do mediocre damage. Its only when you add ANOTHER 60%+ damage from the Detroyer FEAT in PVE that you see GOOD damage.
So you could literally give the Sentinel GWF 200:1 meaning Power:1% Damage, lets Sent GWFS stack up to 20k Power which would be 100% damage boost and they would STILL get massively OUT DPSd by nearly ANY class AND STILL be much more squishy than TRs/Hrs/CWs/DCs/GFs etc....
You cant just look at raw stats because GWFs seem like Monsters.
120k+ HP, 20k Power, 40%+ Deflect, 40%+ Crit(weapon Master) You might be thinking "whats the problem? look at all of this"
Fact of the matter is though. 20k Power means NOTHING with our horrible base damage.
The issue though, if they increase base damage they will HAVE to nerf Detroyer for PVE purposes. If they do this as well, GWF is not even good in PVP at all, so buffing all the base damage will STILL not address the PVP issues, nerfing Destroyer will STILL not make them viable in PVP or balanced in PVP itll just make them worse.
This is why I keep saying we need to pick and choose what to give feedback on. They will not re-work out class, only minor changes so we need to be VERY precise with feedback.
FEEDBACK: INTIMIDATION
- Deals too low damage right now. Needs to be brought up to about 250% Weapon damage AND damage bonuses need to work with it (like it does on live). I dont like it working off power.
I could ALSO see this ability instead transformed into a DPS mechanic rather than a "burst" so it would work more like DCs "Fire of the Gods" where it deals 100% weapon damage every second for 15 seconds.
Given that this is off a LONG CD and NOT a crit it seems fair. ALSO this removes the benefit of slotting TWO "intimidation" abilities since it would only proc once and would NOT stack.
This seems like the most reasonable as it does good DPS, is NOT a burst damage ability BUT! It removes that you can use it 2x and would only get real benefit from ONE encounter - each has their own benefits.
But noone of this will happen, they wont make drastic changes to the class THIS close to a module. Now maybe if your proposing this for module 7 or 8, but then again who knows what will happen by that time....
If they want to fix intimidation, honestly the best way to do it is to just copy another classes mechanic like DCs "fire of the Gods" but DCs feat is off a crit, ours would be off an ability. So its pretty fair IMO. 100% weapon damage every second for 15 seconds. Done. Same coding as DC feat but instead of off a proc its off CAGI or DS.
For the REST of the class while (again) there are a million things we can propose and fix. At the end of the day we need to look at the path of least resistance. For ALL GWFS that is:
1) Temp HP from Unstoppable - Needs to either be NOT affected by HD or it needs to be based on number of hits - allowing for ABOUT the same amount of Temp HP both in PVE and PVP. This is too much of a crutch for the class, if you over buff it itll be FAR too good in PVE and good in PVP or it will be good in PVE but suck in PVP - where it is now.
As mentioned before BEST case scenario that I CONSTRUCTED in pvp with the help of teammates. I got <13k Temp HP from a FULL unstoppable bar. With the MOST damage buffs our class can muster. This is NOT enough. Especially considering that NO GWF will ever yhave the luxury of WAITING to use unstoppable for a FULL Bar.
This could also fall under the category of a BUG since Destroyer stacks + Destroyer Captsone + Power + STR put me WELL about 100% damage bonus, We are SUPPOSED To get 8-16% * damage bonus. On a Target Dummy I was able to get a TON of Temp HP (like 50k+) but in PVP best case is 13k? Temp HP?
OH For this 13k I was also using Trans FeyTouched which would have been another 18% however that didnt seem to apply EITHER.
For ALL these reasons instead of fixing coding/bugs etc or worrying about damage bonus balance, just make it a FLAT 4-5% EITHER per second (not affected by HD) or PER HIT (WITH HD - potentialyl with a .5 second ICD allowing for proper #s in pvp)
2) Stacking - NO other class is FORCED to rely on stacking like we are. The biggest issues are weapon master stacks and Destroyer stacks, they are FAR too short for PVP purposes. THis is something DPS tests or PVE tests CANNOT show you. The stacks needs to last 8+ seconds each OR last the entire duration you are in combat.
Second to this are Destroyer Capstone stacks - should NOT be reliant on Unstoppable. Should build them anytime anywhere off any attack and last the same as above 8+ seconds.
Instagator stacks - again only last a few seconds after getting attacked? Great in PVE however you cant FORCE someone to attack you in PVP. These need a MASSIVE increase in duration. 10+ Seconds MINIMUM.
3) Determination - ALL GWFs need to build determination off DEALING damage. PERIOD. This should not be restricted to the Destroyer class.
4) Stamina Gain - Our stamina gain is the WORST of ANY class. We get 5 seconds to sprint every 20+ seconds. Even stacking stamina gain does next to nothing for us.
Possible solutions are to give insta- stamina refill each unstoppable pop. Another was to increase the BASE gain. Another was to make STR = 2% stam gain up from 1%. OR yet ANOTHER could be to rework "Fast Runner" to be JUST like "Fleet Footed" for TR - a 10% stamina gain boost.
ALl are possible options.
OVERALL GWFs NEED:
1) Better Temp HP from unstoppable IN PVP - preferably NOT tied to damage bonus.
2) Better "stacking system" - with a LARGE LARGE LARGE amount of damage reliant upon stacks, the current "stacking" system is VERY poor.
3) Better CONTROL over our access to Unstoppable - not just HP % lost but damage dealt as well (preferably on a PRE-DR basis too BTW)
4) Better Stamina Gain Currently its VERY bad in PVP.
Then FINALLY we DO need a FIX to Intimidation, so again. Just make it like Fire of the Gods for DCs: 100% weapon damage every second for 15 seconds. Copy/Paste the coding. Itll be GOOD DPS that procs off an ECOUNTER - rather than a CRIT (like DCs) And actualyl FREE UP a slot for GWFs -encounters who run this.