If he's below me, he'd need things I'd greed and if he's above me, he'd greed things i'd need. What would be the benefit of a "greed-run" ?
Everyone has an equal 20% chance at the final "valuable loot".
Pretty simple concept really. This is why greed runs are a popular method of running.
But again, it all comes down to the party. ASK! COMMUNICATE! Maybe the party's consensus is to have a need run, then by all means go for it. There are positives to a need run as well (though in my personal opinion, it is inferior to a greed run just because you can't beat 20% equal chance).
Bind on Equip instead of Bind to Character on Acquire. BtCoA is the way every other mmo I've seen that uses need vs greed handles epics. (With rare exceptions, that usually cause drama, just like the drama here)
BtCoA ??? Don't think I've ever seen that abbreviation. Every other MMO I've seen everyone calls that BOP - Bind on Pickup.
BtCoA ??? Don't think I've ever seen that abbreviation. Every other MMO I've seen everyone calls that BOP - Bind on Pickup.
Used to ddo which had some stuff that bound really oddly so you sometimes needed to be really specific in if it bound, didn't bind, bound to character or account, and if it happened during pickup or equip.
Ok, still, the question stands: need is an advantage for those that can use the gear. why should they ignore that advantage? everyone has some advantages because everyone has specific gear he could need, so it's still balanced, isn't it?
No. Drops are a reward for running the dungeon, and if everyone contributes equally they deserve an equal chance at the share. You voluntarily enter an agreement(contract) and should abide by the rules. Noone cares what you want or what your character can or cannot equip. The world doesn't revolve around your perceived "wants".
No. Drops are a reward for running the dungeon, and if everyone contributes equally they deserve an equal chance at the share. You voluntarily enter an agreement(contract) and should abide by the rules.
Mathematically spoken from what I learned here: If there is every class in the game equally used, then chances are balanced that you get the gear you need because you have a global equally balanced chance to run into groups where you are needed. If one class is to much used, your chances get lower getting something you need, while the engine favors those who are in the minority. Still, items usable by anyone can be needed by all.
I'd still need what I need because that's how it is meant to be. And if i'm the only guardian fighter in a run and boss looses his ›Great Hat of Guardian Power‹, than for me that simply means: Crom wants me to wear a new hat, and I'd call it unfair if some WizardOfOz would just get it because he is lucky, simply because it was not meant for him. Perhaps next time, the engine will favour him with a ›Stick of the mighty Fireball‹ and that's OK for me.
And if some jackpot gives a joker of all classes item, everyone can need it and that's what I'd call fair, so i'll still need what I need and greed what I want to sell, giving anyone who is allowed to use it a better chance than me.
That's how i'll do it as long as no one comes up with a REALLY good argument. What I've read until here is just whining about someone not having the chance to get something to sell, which is clearly NOT my definition of having fun IN A GAME.
<snip>... so i'll still need what I need and greed what I want to sell, giving anyone who is allowed to use it a better chance than me.
That's how i'll do it as long as no one comes up with a REALLY good argument. What I've read until here is just whining about someone not having the chance to get something to sell, which is clearly NOT my definition of having fun IN A GAME.
I agree 100% but don't be surprised when the mob label you a ninja, a looter, a thief, a fraudster and then kick you and ban you and prosecute you in real life across several continents (no, really, stop sniggering at the back...) and all for choosing an option in a game that is working as the devs intended. Yes, working as the devs intended...
Anyone that demands you change your loot selections to suit them is not doing anything as noble as looking after the party. They are just selfishly trying to grab a piece of loot for their own selfish selves. Not that they can even agree on the exact rules anyway.
I agree 100% but don't be surprised when the mob label you a ninja, a looter, a thief, a fraudster and then kick you and ban you and prosecute you in real life across several continents (no, really, stop sniggering at the back...) and all for choosing an option in a game that is working as the devs intended. Yes, working as the devs intended...
The problem isn't choosing the option.
The problem is choosing the option AFTER agreeing to "greed only." In that case you are definitely an un-trustworthy liar at the very least. However, if the group did not pre-agree, absolutely - roll as intended.
No. Drops are a reward for running the dungeon, and if everyone contributes equally they deserve an equal chance at the share.
If my class item drops I should be able to need on it, and I should not get kicked from the group. It is still equality. If you run the instance more than once you will eventually get "your class item" which you roll need on, and you have achieved parity. Think long term.
If my class item drops I should be able to need on it, and I should not get kicked from the group.
You only get removed from the group for going against the pre-agreed upon need/greed run at the start because that might mean you are trying to steal the final loot.
Be sure to ask next time what type of run it is at the beginning.
If my class item drops I should be able to need on it, and I should not get kicked from the group. It is still equality. If you run the instance more than once you will eventually get "your class item" which you roll need on, and you have achieved parity. Think long term.
1) If you have someone else of the same class, you have less chance to win loot than others who are the only class on the team.
2) Each classes loot has a different value
3) If you already had said item, you'd be called greedy for needing it when you don't or when you'd sell it, but if need was the norm people would constantly do it because "i need ad"
Older content doesn't mean much, but if they redid the whole bop from chest boe as a drop, then you should run greed as a whole or form your own need groups.
Long term you keep getting newbies needing the loot so you get nothing of value for helping out. Whereas on a greed run you'd get it in a reasonable amount of time from the chest or can sell/trade the item you eventually win for the one you want. However that super expensive class item won't be just given to the guy who wants to play the shiny new class. Everyone worked for that expensive drop.
If my class item drops I should be able to need on it, and I should not get kicked from the group. It is still equality. If you run the instance more than once you will eventually get "your class item" which you roll need on, and you have achieved parity. Think long term.
Lets check your assumption of parity over long term, historically, mod 0 - mod 4 ( more than a year ):
lets assume 500 ToS runs with an armor drop rate of 5% = 25 drops total from the boss unbound.
we will examine only two classes, TR & CW, so we will reduce it and discard the rest of the classes drops and remain with 5 each.
Lets look at net gain of the most expansive drops:
CW - HV tunic average price 850k -> 5*850k = 4250k AD
TR - swash ~250k -> 5*250k = 1250k AD
But you will say, CW were OP, everyone stacked CW. NP, lets assume there were 2 of those, and we still get 2125k AD per CW, almost twice what the TR got.
so you're telling me if a CW item drops all the non-CWs in the group have just as much "right" to it? because they can SELL it??
bwhahah no wonder you get kicked from alot of groups bro. good luck there chief. good luck with that...
That's funny because I don't recall getting kicked a single time, but do recall other people kicking others for needing an item even when no rules have been stated. I don't really see what's so hard to understand. Everyone on average gets and equal chance for equal valued loot instead of that loot being lopsided to the needer. It's not hard. For the case for boe armour sets, you're better off, or were from getting it from the chest and even when getting the one you want as a boss drop, you were still better off selling it. Greed runs mean that even if your class item does not drop, then you still have a chance of getting something. Do you honestly think it's fine for an unpopular class to get less AD for their runs just because they chose not to be the class that everyone wants to play?
Form need runs if you want, but don't pretend that greed runs aren't a good options when overall it's a more fair system. Armour pieces used to be hundreds of thousands of AD each. Now you could run a dungeon and claim the loot for yourself even though the rest of the team did just as much work, or you could have rolled for any one sell it on and get your piece from the chest and make much more progress.
There's a reason why the dungeons are empty, and that's because it's not worth doing. If you take the only piece of loot of value, then they have no incentive to help you run it.
Back, when AoW head sold for 1 million AD, I did hundreds of GG DK runs. I searched 'DK greedrun lfxm 15k GS+'. Before we started I posted 'GREED on epic tems'. Once or twice a week we had a needer and I kicked him. I had dozends of PMs 'I reported you' etc. and I am still playing.
We did farmruns, EVERYBODY had his/her set complete. When HR got released the RG set was very expensive, too. You took a HR to fill up the group. How would it be fair, if he rolls need on every HR item, when you stack 3 CWs for faster runs.
TBH, if you want to roll need on a item, dont join greed runs. If you get kicked, then it is the logical consequence of your violation of the loot rules.
I hope, that enough of my friends will still play, when MOD 6 and if new armor sets get released or I will have more needless discussions with needers in greedruns.
I was taught, need on all. Cause you will always need the AD. (At the time I think anyone could need on anything. so it was pretty much the greed system but you hit a diff button)
so you're telling me if a CW item drops all the non-CWs in the group have just as much "right" to it? because they can SELL it??
bwhahah no wonder you get kicked from alot of groups bro. good luck there chief. good luck with that...
Yes, this is precisely what I am saying. Everyone works for the item and thus has an equal chance at it. What I do with the item is none of your concern. The need-greed dichotomy shouldn't exist in the first place, and people invented the greed rule as a way to circumvent a faulty loot design.
And, I get kicked? No, I am mostly the one doing the kicking. You might find yourself in my run, good luck there chief.
Yes, this is precisely what I am saying. Everyone works for the item and thus has an equal chance at it. What I do with the item is none of your concern. The need-greed dichotomy shouldn't exist in the first place, and people invented the greed rule as a way to circumvent a faulty loot design.
And, I get kicked? No, I am mostly the one doing the kicking. You might find yourself in my run, good luck there chief.
You shouldn't be kicking very many people. Most people are ok if you just say, "hey, you shouldn't need on that" and they'll be all like "ok" and not do it. Or in your case... I have no idea why you're kicking, but it sounds like you might not be a very nice person to group with. I haven't had to kick anyone from any pugs except in extreme circumstances which happens very rarely.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
... Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
You shouldn't be kicking very many people. Most people are ok if you just say, "hey, you shouldn't need on that" and they'll be all like "ok" and not do it. Or in your case... I have no idea why you're kicking, but it sounds like you might not be a very nice person to group with. I haven't had to kick anyone from any pugs except in extreme circumstances which happens very rarely.
If he said greed run and people need, he's every bit justified in kicking. Like I said early, another game I used to play if you could prove that someone broke the groups loot agreement in that manner, they'd actually break out the ban hammer on the ninja.
If he said greed run and people need, he's every bit justified in kicking. Like I said early, another game I used to play if you could prove that someone broke the groups loot agreement in that manner, they'd actually break out the ban hammer on the ninja.
I'd try talking to them on first offense. If they continue to ignore the agreed upon loot rules then I'd kick, but in my experiences usually people are willing to listen to and follow group agreements.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
... Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
Yes, this is precisely what I am saying. Everyone works for the item and thus has an equal chance at it. What I do with the item is none of your concern. The need-greed dichotomy shouldn't exist in the first place, and people invented the greed rule as a way to circumvent a faulty loot design.
And, I get kicked? No, I am mostly the one doing the kicking. You might find yourself in my run, good luck there chief.
Yea!
I work with a guy who's crippled from the waist down and we both worked for this car so he should have equal chance in getting it.
So he can't use it. Because he's crippled.
^What you're saying. GF and GWF helped a CW to kill the boss. Purple CW Orb drops. Obviously the GF and GWF have as much right to it because they can all use it.
Actually, the CW has the most right because he's the only one who can Need on it.
Honestly, you people act like ****ing children. Purple items sell for nothing and are worth next to nothing for Refining. People run dungeons for the RP and Enchants. Everyone can Need on those.
So many times people run a dungeon, grab all the Enchants and RP, then throw a massive tantrum when someone Needs on a blue item. Grow up.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Yea!
I work with a guy who's crippled from the waist down and we both worked for this car so he should have equal chance in getting it.
So he can't use it. Because he's crippled.
^What you're saying. GF and GWF helped a CW to kill the boss. Purple CW Orb drops. Obviously the GF and GWF have as much right to it because they can all use it.
Actually, the CW has the most right because he's the only one who can Need on it.
Honestly, you people act like ****ing children. Purple items sell for nothing and are worth next to nothing for Refining. People run dungeons for the RP and Enchants. Everyone can Need on those.
So many times people run a dungeon, grab all the Enchants and RP, then throw a massive tantrum when someone Needs on a blue item. Grow up.
So basically what you're saying is that the cripple doesn't deserve anything for helping you for the car just because he's crippled? How very generous of you.
For the orb scenario, for your random purple one then yes you shouldn't need that because it's nothing special but another classes may be worth more. A paladin for example should be able to get more just because he's a paladin, likewise the cw shouldn't have his odds on getting his class item halved with no chance on the other classes on their team that get needed just because the team decided to either bring another cw along or the queue decided to do it instead. Everyone contributed, everyone deserves and equal chance of equal value. Originally any class could need that orb.
As for the people acting as children, personally I'd say the "I want it now" mentality is more childish. The purple items are worth next to nothing, but the rules were in place when that was not the case, they were worth a lot more. It would not be wise to massively change the status quo just before an overhaul coming up since it'd be harder to deal with ninjas if greed runs were for the best overall. I doubt many people run dungeons for rp and enchants as their main reason since you need the last hit on enchant procs. A lot of people previously preferred foundries.
The one thing I think is odd is the needing on the blues though, I think that should be greed but I don't really care about those.
No-one is stopping you from forming your own need runs. People used to actually do split runs too which was a good way of making it completely fair, though you did lose 10% ah fees. Not sure anyone bothers now since almost everything is worth a lot less. I thought I should get my CN weapon at the time when I did need it, but instead of crying about it, I accepted it, saw how it went and found out that it was the thing that made every progress faster. The rest of the team isn't there to babysit.
So basically what you're saying is that the cripple doesn't deserve anything for helping you for the car just because he's crippled? How very generous of you.
Yea, that's exactly what I'm saying.
A cripple who's paralyzed from the waist down has no need for a car. He worked for it knowing he wouldn't be able to use it.
Likewise, a GWF has no need for an Orb. He worked for it knowing he wouldn't be able to use it.
Now, to put this into more practical terms - Every member of the party contributed to clearing the dungeon, knowing that nothing could drop for them. The only problem you have with the scenario I posted is that it probably tugged on your adorable little moral strings.
Realistically, if I wanted items for refining (Why anyone would waste time on that is beyond me), I'd go farm WoD.
For the orb scenario, for your random purple one then yes you shouldn't need that because it's nothing special but another classes may be worth more. A paladin for example should be able to get more just because he's a paladin, likewise the cw shouldn't have his odds on getting his class item halved with no chance on the other classes on their team that get needed just because the team decided to either bring another cw along or the queue decided to do it instead. Everyone contributed, everyone deserves and equal chance of equal value. Originally any class could need that orb.
Originally, only 1 class can use that orb - CW.
The item is worth the same to everyone - a pitifully low amount of RP and less AD than you'd earn from a daily. The only difference is one class can use that item.
As for your "hurr what if another CW joins" argument - **** happens. Sometimes you queue with a premade of 2 CWs. Sometimes it's just 1. Sometimes you pug and there's 3 CWs. This is the natural risk of a party scenario when you're not rolling with a predetermined premade.
Just like how everyone can contribute to clearing a dungeon and only 1 class gets drops, you can also join a party with 3 of the same class in it. It's the inherent risk.
What you're doing is carebearing the party scenario.
Honestly, how many times do you throw a tantrum when someone Needs in your GWD pugs? Is <500 RP and a few hundred AD worth breaking your keyboard in rage?
As for the people acting as children, personally I'd say the "I want it now" mentality is more childish. The purple items are worth next to nothing, but the rules were in place when that was not the case, they were worth a lot more. It would not be wise to massively change the status quo just before an overhaul coming up since it'd be harder to deal with ninjas if greed runs were for the best overall. I doubt many people run dungeons for rp and enchants as their main reason since you need the last hit on enchant procs. A lot of people previously preferred foundries.
As for the people acting as children, personally I'd say the "I want equal chance for an item that's not mine" mentality is more childish.
Like I said before, this is the natural risk that you take when partying. Sometimes you get a lot of drops. Sometimes you get none. It's RNG. It's how the game was designed. Those purple items you're complaining about are worth nothing. To everyone.
The only possible exception is Paladin. What are you going to tell a new Paladin who joins your party? Sorry your class is new and the items started dropping 6 hours ago but we're a Greed only party? Get ****ed.
Also, I must be doing something wrong. Somehow I got my Artifacts to L90+ from Enchant drops.
Obviously no one does it for the ridiculous amounts of Enchants that drop or the hundreds of mobs that you can easily last-hit.
The one thing I think is odd is the needing on the blues though, I think that should be greed but I don't really care about those.
No-one is stopping you from forming your own need runs. People used to actually do split runs too which was a good way of making it completely fair, though you did lose 10% ah fees. Not sure anyone bothers now since almost everything is worth a lot less. I thought I should get my CN weapon at the time when I did need it, but instead of crying about it, I accepted it, saw how it went and found out that it was the thing that made every progress faster. The rest of the team isn't there to babysit.
You're right. They're there to play their odds. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.
Honestly, you seem like the life of the party.
"I contributed in this game of beer pong so I shouldn't lose just because my partner missed a shot".
The "Greed Only" mentality is a cancer that's run its course through a lot of MMOs and it nearly never works as intended. You play your odds, sometimes you get your item and leave, other times you don't and you keep playing to get it.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Yea, that's exactly what I'm saying.
A cripple who's paralyzed from the waist down has no need for a car. He worked for it knowing he wouldn't be able to use it.
Basically you're saying that when the hr, sw and soon paladin came/comes out, that it's ok for them to need and sell stuff and make much more than anyone else on their team just because they can.
Btw for your level 90 artifacts, I probably got mine to level 100 with less time invested. People generally don't do dungeons with enchants as the focus. GFs have a hard time, trs and dcs used to have a hard time last hitting fyi. HRs probably find it harder than other classes too. If that's the way you like doing it, go ahead, but don't act all high and mighty because of it. The vast majority would rather just buy botted supplies.
If you think loot being distributed more equally is a cancer then keep deluding yourself. Like I said, this was a way to distribute thousands, to up to hundreds of thousands of ad equally and something people stuck with.
If need was the norm, people who mostly need are not the ones who actually need or possibly not even use the item. Greed runs are to try to prevent actual greed and distribute wealth evenly. That's the whole point. Give or take a little rng of course, but there's less factors in the equation at least.
Basically you're saying that when the hr, sw and soon paladin came/comes out, that it's ok for them to need and sell stuff and make much more than anyone else on their team just because they can.
No, because they're the minority and the minority gets benefits from the current system that features those who can actually use an item. I do it like this:
need: I need the item and can use it. greed: I may or may not need the item, sometimes I cant use it but if no one needs it i'm greedy enough to fill my precious inventory slots with it in order to sell it. pass: I'm not interested/my inventory space is of to much value for me and so I pass this on for anyone who will have it.
That's how it is intended and that's how i'll do it.
At start of party, all chose a common/me separating threshold. Weighted majority, rounded up average wins.
Now every loot that anyone dares to pickup above that threshold simply goes into a party shared stack, no more stupid screen-filling dialogs in battle.
At the end (big chest) you get the list of items and can mark everything with either need or greed, what you don't mark is passed. Class items just get you the need option, if their equipment value is just slightly less or greater than the value of your current gear (it is "recommended").
That way, you have time to decide what to do and can need those items that you really need.
Tell the devs if u like it, until then i'll stick to the current system as it was intended.
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titaniumworldMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 28Arc User
No, because they're the minority and the minority gets benefits from the current system that features those who can actually use an item. I do it like this:
need: I need the item and can use it. greed: I may or may not need the item, sometimes I cant use it but if no one needs it i'm greedy enough to fill my precious inventory slots with it in order to sell it. pass: I'm not interested/my inventory space is of to much value for me and so I pass this on for anyone who will have it.
That's how it is intended and that's how i'll do it.
You can do it that way but in most cases you will be kicked before that loot makes it in to your bag.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited February 2015
This is a good time to remind everyone that we're nearing 2 year anniversary and still no improvements have been made to loot rules.
Comments
Everyone has an equal 20% chance at the final "valuable loot".
Pretty simple concept really. This is why greed runs are a popular method of running.
But again, it all comes down to the party. ASK! COMMUNICATE! Maybe the party's consensus is to have a need run, then by all means go for it. There are positives to a need run as well (though in my personal opinion, it is inferior to a greed run just because you can't beat 20% equal chance).
BtCoA ??? Don't think I've ever seen that abbreviation. Every other MMO I've seen everyone calls that BOP - Bind on Pickup.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Used to ddo which had some stuff that bound really oddly so you sometimes needed to be really specific in if it bound, didn't bind, bound to character or account, and if it happened during pickup or equip.
No. Drops are a reward for running the dungeon, and if everyone contributes equally they deserve an equal chance at the share. You voluntarily enter an agreement(contract) and should abide by the rules. Noone cares what you want or what your character can or cannot equip. The world doesn't revolve around your perceived "wants".
Mathematically spoken from what I learned here: If there is every class in the game equally used, then chances are balanced that you get the gear you need because you have a global equally balanced chance to run into groups where you are needed. If one class is to much used, your chances get lower getting something you need, while the engine favors those who are in the minority. Still, items usable by anyone can be needed by all.
I'd still need what I need because that's how it is meant to be. And if i'm the only guardian fighter in a run and boss looses his ›Great Hat of Guardian Power‹, than for me that simply means: Crom wants me to wear a new hat, and I'd call it unfair if some WizardOfOz would just get it because he is lucky, simply because it was not meant for him. Perhaps next time, the engine will favour him with a ›Stick of the mighty Fireball‹ and that's OK for me.
And if some jackpot gives a joker of all classes item, everyone can need it and that's what I'd call fair, so i'll still need what I need and greed what I want to sell, giving anyone who is allowed to use it a better chance than me.
That's how i'll do it as long as no one comes up with a REALLY good argument. What I've read until here is just whining about someone not having the chance to get something to sell, which is clearly NOT my definition of having fun IN A GAME.
I agree 100% but don't be surprised when the mob label you a ninja, a looter, a thief, a fraudster and then kick you and ban you and prosecute you in real life across several continents (no, really, stop sniggering at the back...) and all for choosing an option in a game that is working as the devs intended. Yes, working as the devs intended...
Anyone that demands you change your loot selections to suit them is not doing anything as noble as looking after the party. They are just selfishly trying to grab a piece of loot for their own selfish selves. Not that they can even agree on the exact rules anyway.
The problem isn't choosing the option.
The problem is choosing the option AFTER agreeing to "greed only." In that case you are definitely an un-trustworthy liar at the very least. However, if the group did not pre-agree, absolutely - roll as intended.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
If my class item drops I should be able to need on it, and I should not get kicked from the group. It is still equality. If you run the instance more than once you will eventually get "your class item" which you roll need on, and you have achieved parity. Think long term.
You only get removed from the group for going against the pre-agreed upon need/greed run at the start because that might mean you are trying to steal the final loot.
Be sure to ask next time what type of run it is at the beginning.
1) If you have someone else of the same class, you have less chance to win loot than others who are the only class on the team.
2) Each classes loot has a different value
3) If you already had said item, you'd be called greedy for needing it when you don't or when you'd sell it, but if need was the norm people would constantly do it because "i need ad"
Older content doesn't mean much, but if they redid the whole bop from chest boe as a drop, then you should run greed as a whole or form your own need groups.
Long term you keep getting newbies needing the loot so you get nothing of value for helping out. Whereas on a greed run you'd get it in a reasonable amount of time from the chest or can sell/trade the item you eventually win for the one you want. However that super expensive class item won't be just given to the guy who wants to play the shiny new class. Everyone worked for that expensive drop.
bwhahah no wonder you get kicked from alot of groups bro. good luck there chief. good luck with that...
Lets check your assumption of parity over long term, historically, mod 0 - mod 4 ( more than a year ):
lets assume 500 ToS runs with an armor drop rate of 5% = 25 drops total from the boss unbound.
we will examine only two classes, TR & CW, so we will reduce it and discard the rest of the classes drops and remain with 5 each.
Lets look at net gain of the most expansive drops:
CW - HV tunic average price 850k -> 5*850k = 4250k AD
TR - swash ~250k -> 5*250k = 1250k AD
But you will say, CW were OP, everyone stacked CW. NP, lets assume there were 2 of those, and we still get 2125k AD per CW, almost twice what the TR got.
Equality at it's best.
That's funny because I don't recall getting kicked a single time, but do recall other people kicking others for needing an item even when no rules have been stated. I don't really see what's so hard to understand. Everyone on average gets and equal chance for equal valued loot instead of that loot being lopsided to the needer. It's not hard. For the case for boe armour sets, you're better off, or were from getting it from the chest and even when getting the one you want as a boss drop, you were still better off selling it. Greed runs mean that even if your class item does not drop, then you still have a chance of getting something. Do you honestly think it's fine for an unpopular class to get less AD for their runs just because they chose not to be the class that everyone wants to play?
Form need runs if you want, but don't pretend that greed runs aren't a good options when overall it's a more fair system. Armour pieces used to be hundreds of thousands of AD each. Now you could run a dungeon and claim the loot for yourself even though the rest of the team did just as much work, or you could have rolled for any one sell it on and get your piece from the chest and make much more progress.
There's a reason why the dungeons are empty, and that's because it's not worth doing. If you take the only piece of loot of value, then they have no incentive to help you run it.
We did farmruns, EVERYBODY had his/her set complete. When HR got released the RG set was very expensive, too. You took a HR to fill up the group. How would it be fair, if he rolls need on every HR item, when you stack 3 CWs for faster runs.
TBH, if you want to roll need on a item, dont join greed runs. If you get kicked, then it is the logical consequence of your violation of the loot rules.
I hope, that enough of my friends will still play, when MOD 6 and if new armor sets get released or I will have more needless discussions with needers in greedruns.
Greed- on purple armor/weapons
Need- On purple accessories, blue stuff, green stuff, enchants
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Yes, this is precisely what I am saying. Everyone works for the item and thus has an equal chance at it. What I do with the item is none of your concern. The need-greed dichotomy shouldn't exist in the first place, and people invented the greed rule as a way to circumvent a faulty loot design.
And, I get kicked? No, I am mostly the one doing the kicking. You might find yourself in my run, good luck there chief.
You shouldn't be kicking very many people. Most people are ok if you just say, "hey, you shouldn't need on that" and they'll be all like "ok" and not do it. Or in your case... I have no idea why you're kicking, but it sounds like you might not be a very nice person to group with. I haven't had to kick anyone from any pugs except in extreme circumstances which happens very rarely.
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Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
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If he said greed run and people need, he's every bit justified in kicking. Like I said early, another game I used to play if you could prove that someone broke the groups loot agreement in that manner, they'd actually break out the ban hammer on the ninja.
I'd try talking to them on first offense. If they continue to ignore the agreed upon loot rules then I'd kick, but in my experiences usually people are willing to listen to and follow group agreements.
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Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
Yea!
I work with a guy who's crippled from the waist down and we both worked for this car so he should have equal chance in getting it.
So he can't use it. Because he's crippled.
^What you're saying. GF and GWF helped a CW to kill the boss. Purple CW Orb drops. Obviously the GF and GWF have as much right to it because they can all use it.
Actually, the CW has the most right because he's the only one who can Need on it.
Honestly, you people act like ****ing children. Purple items sell for nothing and are worth next to nothing for Refining. People run dungeons for the RP and Enchants. Everyone can Need on those.
So many times people run a dungeon, grab all the Enchants and RP, then throw a massive tantrum when someone Needs on a blue item. Grow up.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
So basically what you're saying is that the cripple doesn't deserve anything for helping you for the car just because he's crippled? How very generous of you.
For the orb scenario, for your random purple one then yes you shouldn't need that because it's nothing special but another classes may be worth more. A paladin for example should be able to get more just because he's a paladin, likewise the cw shouldn't have his odds on getting his class item halved with no chance on the other classes on their team that get needed just because the team decided to either bring another cw along or the queue decided to do it instead. Everyone contributed, everyone deserves and equal chance of equal value. Originally any class could need that orb.
As for the people acting as children, personally I'd say the "I want it now" mentality is more childish. The purple items are worth next to nothing, but the rules were in place when that was not the case, they were worth a lot more. It would not be wise to massively change the status quo just before an overhaul coming up since it'd be harder to deal with ninjas if greed runs were for the best overall. I doubt many people run dungeons for rp and enchants as their main reason since you need the last hit on enchant procs. A lot of people previously preferred foundries.
The one thing I think is odd is the needing on the blues though, I think that should be greed but I don't really care about those.
No-one is stopping you from forming your own need runs. People used to actually do split runs too which was a good way of making it completely fair, though you did lose 10% ah fees. Not sure anyone bothers now since almost everything is worth a lot less. I thought I should get my CN weapon at the time when I did need it, but instead of crying about it, I accepted it, saw how it went and found out that it was the thing that made every progress faster. The rest of the team isn't there to babysit.
Yea, that's exactly what I'm saying.
A cripple who's paralyzed from the waist down has no need for a car. He worked for it knowing he wouldn't be able to use it.
Likewise, a GWF has no need for an Orb. He worked for it knowing he wouldn't be able to use it.
Now, to put this into more practical terms - Every member of the party contributed to clearing the dungeon, knowing that nothing could drop for them. The only problem you have with the scenario I posted is that it probably tugged on your adorable little moral strings.
Realistically, if I wanted items for refining (Why anyone would waste time on that is beyond me), I'd go farm WoD.
Originally, only 1 class can use that orb - CW.
The item is worth the same to everyone - a pitifully low amount of RP and less AD than you'd earn from a daily. The only difference is one class can use that item.
As for your "hurr what if another CW joins" argument - **** happens. Sometimes you queue with a premade of 2 CWs. Sometimes it's just 1. Sometimes you pug and there's 3 CWs. This is the natural risk of a party scenario when you're not rolling with a predetermined premade.
Just like how everyone can contribute to clearing a dungeon and only 1 class gets drops, you can also join a party with 3 of the same class in it. It's the inherent risk.
What you're doing is carebearing the party scenario.
Honestly, how many times do you throw a tantrum when someone Needs in your GWD pugs? Is <500 RP and a few hundred AD worth breaking your keyboard in rage?
As for the people acting as children, personally I'd say the "I want equal chance for an item that's not mine" mentality is more childish.
Like I said before, this is the natural risk that you take when partying. Sometimes you get a lot of drops. Sometimes you get none. It's RNG. It's how the game was designed. Those purple items you're complaining about are worth nothing. To everyone.
The only possible exception is Paladin. What are you going to tell a new Paladin who joins your party? Sorry your class is new and the items started dropping 6 hours ago but we're a Greed only party? Get ****ed.
Also, I must be doing something wrong. Somehow I got my Artifacts to L90+ from Enchant drops.
Obviously no one does it for the ridiculous amounts of Enchants that drop or the hundreds of mobs that you can easily last-hit.
You're right. They're there to play their odds. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.
Honestly, you seem like the life of the party.
"I contributed in this game of beer pong so I shouldn't lose just because my partner missed a shot".
The "Greed Only" mentality is a cancer that's run its course through a lot of MMOs and it nearly never works as intended. You play your odds, sometimes you get your item and leave, other times you don't and you keep playing to get it.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Nice to see such a radiant example of kindness and empathy. http://www.abilitycenter.com/drivingaids/handcontrols/
Basically you're saying that when the hr, sw and soon paladin came/comes out, that it's ok for them to need and sell stuff and make much more than anyone else on their team just because they can.
Btw for your level 90 artifacts, I probably got mine to level 100 with less time invested. People generally don't do dungeons with enchants as the focus. GFs have a hard time, trs and dcs used to have a hard time last hitting fyi. HRs probably find it harder than other classes too. If that's the way you like doing it, go ahead, but don't act all high and mighty because of it. The vast majority would rather just buy botted supplies.
If you think loot being distributed more equally is a cancer then keep deluding yourself. Like I said, this was a way to distribute thousands, to up to hundreds of thousands of ad equally and something people stuck with.
If need was the norm, people who mostly need are not the ones who actually need or possibly not even use the item. Greed runs are to try to prevent actual greed and distribute wealth evenly. That's the whole point. Give or take a little rng of course, but there's less factors in the equation at least.
No, because they're the minority and the minority gets benefits from the current system that features those who can actually use an item. I do it like this:
need: I need the item and can use it.
greed: I may or may not need the item, sometimes I cant use it but if no one needs it i'm greedy enough to fill my precious inventory slots with it in order to sell it.
pass: I'm not interested/my inventory space is of to much value for me and so I pass this on for anyone who will have it.
That's how it is intended and that's how i'll do it.
Questing with my kids... now that's fun.
"No, Dad gets that sword... or you're grounded!" :P
At start of party, all chose a common/me separating threshold. Weighted majority, rounded up average wins.
Now every loot that anyone dares to pickup above that threshold simply goes into a party shared stack, no more stupid screen-filling dialogs in battle.
At the end (big chest) you get the list of items and can mark everything with either need or greed, what you don't mark is passed. Class items just get you the need option, if their equipment value is just slightly less or greater than the value of your current gear (it is "recommended").
That way, you have time to decide what to do and can need those items that you really need.
Tell the devs if u like it, until then i'll stick to the current system as it was intended.
You can do it that way but in most cases you will be kicked before that loot makes it in to your bag.