In conventional imagery of modern MMOGs, usually the differences between the "shield/tank fighter" types and the "heal/tank battle-cleric" types is in aggro generation and management.
The battle-cleric types are versatile, and in some cases can become even more tankier than the shield-fighter types, but its aggro management is very low and hence is often inadequate to lead the party as a main tank. Aggros being spread around would often tear the party apart as it becomes increasingly more difficult for the battle-cleric to heal and buff and then protect yourself at the same time.
Conversely, shield-fighter types tend to me much more resilient against direct physical attacks, but weaker against magical/elemental attacks, and despite its generally higher defense and offense capabilities, it is entirely possible that a battle-cleric may outlast him due to the difference in self-heals. However, team-wise, shield-fighters provide the ULTIMATE protection to the team with its unmatched ability to draw aggro and take alpha-attacks, and hence its importance remains the same.
...
Of course, you will realize that the above holds only true when the game is sufficiently difficult enough to require a specialized tank class to hold aggros. It also requires a game to be slightly complex as it differentiates between damage types -- at the least physical/magical two types, in many cases physical/magical/elemental three types, and in some hard-core games easily 4, 5 or even more types.
But NW? Nope. No such thing as different damage types. No need for real aggro holding anyway.
So yes, OP does make the GF obsolete.
It also means that the only way the GF doesn't become obsolete, is to increase the difficulty of PvE so a lot more classes then cease to become self-sustaining, and therefore requires a more cooperative active role-distribution within a party. It means returning to the 'trinity' system.
In other words, unless someone NEEDS the GF, the GF is obsolete. The only way someone NEEDS the GF is that it becomes competent in some ways that the OPal cannot be... and unfortunately, the way how NW PvE is set up now, such 'ways' currently do not exist.
Now, if the mobs become a lot more deadlier, with faster attacks, with fast-activating CCs of their own without any stupid red telegraphs. if the mobs can react fast enough to open up with a massive alpha strike that all concentrates on the very first aggro, if the mobs are smarter and identify spellcasters and healers faster and their aggro tends to jump around a lot, if some of the more powerful mobs are easily CC resistant and especially magic resistant.... and if damage types are separated... under these conditions GF and the OPal can coexist.
Basically, it is my opinion that all source of evil in PvE basically comes from the fact that it is way too casual to really need any role distribution, hence fundamentally contradicting the game in terms of "ROLE playing".
You don't need different roles in NW. All you need is DPS. Frankly, any games that purport to be "free of the trinity", simply means a game with bad balance and players who like being munchkins with OP firepower and steamrolling the content.
Reminds me of EQ.
Pallys and SKs were good for regular PUG dungeon zones, but for the raids, you needed the Warriors to be your main tanks while Paladin's and SKs were your offtanks and really the buffers between the mobs and the squishies.
0
damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited January 2015
I haven't heard or read much about the Paladin so my perspective is limited.
However, one thing that has crossed my mind while reading a lot of these posts is simply: 'Does the Paladin have something similar to the GF Guard'?
To me, this is an important question as the GF's Guard may allow the GF to take more damage (single and sustained) than what the Paladin might be able to.
I am concerned about the impact of changes made to Regen on the GF and how much this will affect the survivability of a GF 'tank' yet this seems to be the ideal that the Developers are aiming for in that there should be a necessity for every GF to have a healer in end content.
This does not seem (superficially) to be a bad thing, yet if a GF can't survive without a healer and the GF is incapable of dealing sufficient damage then there is likely to be serious problems.
The major difficulty that i perceive with the GF at present is quite simply that the GF should be able to consistently take as much damage as a DPS class can deal over the same duration with the same cooldowns. Similarly, the GF should be able to deal as much damage as a DPS class can take over the same duration with the same cooldowns.
From my perspective, this would indicate that the GF and other classes are 'balanced', yet currently (and for a very long time) this has not been the case and it does not look like it will be in the near future. Until such time as this re-balancing occurs, the GF is always likely to end up being the least 'capable' class in end content and PVP.
I haven't heard or read much about the Paladin so my perspective is limited.
However, one thing that has crossed my mind while reading a lot of these posts is simply: 'Does the Paladin have something similar to the GF Guard'?
To me, this is an important question as the GF's Guard may allow the GF to take more damage (single and sustained) than what the Paladin might be able to.
I am concerned about the impact of changes made to Regen on the GF and how much this will affect the survivability of a GF 'tank' yet this seems to be the ideal that the Developers are aiming for in that there should be a necessity for every GF to have a healer in end content.
This does not seem (superficially) to be a bad thing, yet if a GF can't survive without a healer and the GF is incapable of dealing sufficient damage then there is likely to be serious problems.
The major difficulty that i perceive with the GF at present is quite simply that the GF should be able to consistently take as much damage as a DPS class can deal over the same duration with the same cooldowns. Similarly, the GF should be able to deal as much damage as a DPS class can take over the same duration with the same cooldowns.
From my perspective, this would indicate that the GF and other classes are 'balanced', yet currently (and for a very long time) this has not been the case and it does not look like it will be in the near future. Until such time as this re-balancing occurs, the GF is always likely to end up being the least 'capable' class in end content and PVP.
From the livestream it seems the protection paladin gets a block with 360 degree cc immunity and 60% DR but the 20% you lose compared to a GF gets added to nearby allies, also it slightly heals.
A lot of the mid-game struggle with GFs is that while our HP pool is deep, our ability to maintain it is limited. Life steal, I would say, is as it currently stands on live WAI for GFs. Through careful uses of block and burst damage we can keep ourselves alive.
One problem comes in the more difficult, high damage dungeons like ELOL. Squishies have a tendency to take agro from us because of their raw DPS, thus gaining the attention of the mobs and healers. My GFs never just get immediately nuked down to a shred of health, which the healers automatically assume that I can take care of myself or they are busy DPSing and not healing.
The BIGGEST problem is the class direction. When OP releases, GFs will serve no purpose. GentlemanCrush's interpretation of the GF is that we should be soft controlling mobs by circling around and essentially kiting them - he said as much in the livestream. I'm sorry Crush, but every single GF player will say that is utterly useless. This is a tremendously boring task and I will more than likely shelve this game if that remains the case. The GF and the DC were meant to complement eachother, DC being the active component (healing, buff/debuff through well placed and timed skills to maximize efficiency) and GF being the passive component (threat management, damage buffing & party damage reduction will long durations).
The easiest way to see how borked GFs are is to just look at our feats. Outside of maybe 1 or 2 in each tree, there is simply NO synergy.
Mod 4 and Mod 5 were good to GFs. Gave us that role mentioned above. Mod 6 will take that away from us painfully.
And as usual, I won't pose an issue without giving solutions.
New class direction: Rebuild GFs as single target DPSers/Initiators/Damage Prevention.
~10-15% weapon damage increase.
~Enforced Threat: Reduce recharge by 30%, reduce damage by 20%, increase threat generation by 100%, reduce damage of all hit by 25% for 4 seconds.
~Griffon's Wrath: Reduce recharge by 50%.
~Lunging Strike: Causes 100% weapon damage bleed over 5 seconds and Marks all targets hit.
~Knights Challenge: REWORK. Increase damage to opponent by 50%, increase damage you take from all sources by 10%. Reduce damage to all other sources from challenged target by 30%. Immediately recharges all skills. Disables block. Increase recharge to 25 seconds.
~Kneebreaker: Fix the hitbox. Works on bosses and through Unstoppable. Each tick counts as a separate active instance of control.
~Anvil of Doom: Fix the hitbox. Killing an enemy with Anvil of Doom empowers you with "Emissary of Death" increasing damage to At-Wills by 20% for 15 seconds.
~Flourish: Immunity when casting. Lengthen duration between first hit & last hit by about .2-.3 seconds.
~Front Line Surge: Prone in PVP. Target cap increased to 8.
~Iron Warrior: Increase damage and damage resistance by 5% per rank. Double Temporary hit points given. Reduce stamina regeneration to 50%. All other buffs remain.
~Into the Fray: Reduce damage buff to 20% of resistance per rank. Triple temporary hit points given to self, double to team, increase self-deflection by 5% per rank, increase self-control resistance by 10% per rank, movement speed bonus remains. Increase recharge to 25 seconds. Duration 10 seconds.
~Knight's Valor: REWORK. Activated ability. The Guardian Fighter sacrifices half of his remaining health (prones self for 1.5 seconds) to apply a large damage resistance buff 20/30/40%, temporary hitpoints based on his/her missing hitpoints 10/20/30%, and a heal over time equal to 15% of the health sacrificed to all allies within 100'. Increase recharge to 25 seconds. Duration 10 seconds.
~Bull Charge: The Guardian Fighter becomes enraged and charges his enemy, knocking them prone. Reduce damage by 30%. Guardian gains Bull's Ferocity: Increase movement speed, damage, and damage taken by 5/10/15%for 4 seconds. If CC'd or blocked, you lose Bull's Ferocity. Bull's Ferocity may stack up to 3 times and is refreshed if any attacks are dodged while active. When Bull's Ferocity ends, you lose all stamina.
Oh and remove the target cap on Terrifying Impact. Increase radius and damage of Cleave.
The overall idea here is to allow the GF to do some fkin damage, give him some utility on PVP and a little risk v. reward vice blockblockblockblock daily blockblockblockblock (hence "fighter"). In addition, taking away those passive defensive measures and giving him/her active skills that allow a DC or OP an opportunity to rectify a mistake and save the team (hence "guardian").
I am of the very strong opinion that anyone with a level 60 GF should get every available xp boost usable only for OP. That because we can't just respc to the new class and to be honest, it really is just a reworked GF.
I will not be leaving my Guardian Fighter for a Paladin, what paladin lacks is damage, sure they can tank but what if it comes down to a 1v1 the pally will not survive. With that said i do believe Paladin will be replacing GF in pve dungeons and so on, its going to be hard for a gf do get a group that wants a GF unless its a guild run, but pvp i still believe gf will have there place, GF never got any love for the devs, the least they can do is give us more dps since were down with tanking.
Big thing for me, does it look like the Paladin is going to solo better than the GF? That's honestly all I care about and from the stream it looked like the Paladin got a massive amount of party powers but I saw no real solo powers.
Pallys and SKs were good for regular PUG dungeon zones, but for the raids, you needed the Warriors to be your main tanks while Paladin's and SKs were your offtanks and really the buffers between the mobs and the squishies.
Yep, that's because Warriors had Defensive Stance.. pretty much the only reason. If GF had a similar class specific skill.. then I would say our position would be secure as it was for Warrior's in EQ.
Those those of you who don't know.. the Defensive Stance ability in Original EQ, caused Warriors have a 50% damage reduction and 100% Threat Boost.. but did 1/2 damage. They also had an offensive stance that did the reverse... so there were DPS warriors too.
In EQ.. AC was a mystery stat.. so we knew wearing plate was better than wearing cloth... but how much.. maybe some math wiz folks knew.. but it was never published.
So tanks.. primarily tried to have massive HP pools and generate as much threat as possible.. as Warrior had weapons that "proc'ed" a pure threat spell vs. damage.
That might be another advantage that GF's will have.. I didn't hear that Paladin's had the enhanced benefit from CON that GF's have... and as a result could have significantly lower HitPoint Pools at 70.
Yep, that's because Warriors had Defensive Stance.. pretty much the only reason. If GF had a similar class specific skill.. then I would say our position would be secure as it was for Warrior's in EQ.
Those those of you who don't know.. the Defensive Stance ability in Original EQ, caused Warriors have a 50% damage reduction and 100% Threat Boost.. but did 1/2 damage. They also had an offensive stance that did the reverse... so there were DPS warriors too.
In EQ.. AC was a mystery stat.. so we knew wearing plate was better than wearing cloth... but how much.. maybe some math wiz folks knew.. but it was never published.
So tanks.. primarily tried to have massive HP pools and generate as much threat as possible.. as Warrior had weapons that "proc'ed" a pure threat spell vs. damage.
That might be another advantage that GF's will have.. I didn't hear that Paladin's had the enhanced benefit from CON that GF's have... and as a result could have significantly lower HitPoint Pools at 70.
AC wasn't too myseterious. Paladin's had the highest AC and were the best damage sponges, but they couldn't hold agro to save their life.
I said it in the poll a few days ago but I considering this and the fact that I wanted a paladin class from the start I would like a respect for GFs. The way the game plays Paladin should just be an option for GF's. With Paladin and GWF it should be branches from the same tree. Start as a fighter and either go GWF for DPS or Pally for tanking.
I said it in the poll a few days ago but I considering this and the fact that I wanted a paladin class from the start I would like a respect for GFs. The way the game plays Paladin should just be an option for GF's. With Paladin and GWF it should be branches from the same tree. Start as a fighter and either go GWF for DPS or Pally for tanking.
While that could work in some games, the way the engine is set, I'd say that that is complete impossible in this game.
Can someone please explain to me why people say "paladins are better than DC" and "paladins are better than GF"?.
Don't you play your paladin differently than GF and DC?. I mean, Paladins can do both, heal and tank, but GF can mitigate damage and DCs can dps, heal and also mitigate damage dramatically. DCs can even solo because they are so good at what they are doing. How can paladin complete with those two classes. In real dungeon runs I mean. Because here is the example: DCs have divinity, thanks to that mechanic, they can cast more often and buff their encounters, their feats are far different from paladin ones? they can do so much that paladins don't. And so does paladins?... so basically, it's all good isn't?
Can someone please explain to me why people say "paladins are better than DC" and "paladins are better than GF"?.
There really isn't. There isn't a single power in the entire game nor anything I've seen that OP has that will compete with ItF for group empowerment. There isn't a single power that will offer the pure mitigation and utility that KV has. They don't have the persistent threat generation potential that a GF has without resorting to hard taunt encounters. You GF's all are dreading this supposed beastly buffing tanking paladin which in reality only outshines you in the healing side of the equation. Personally I think the OP is going to a dissapointment. They have zero, zilch, nada damage potential and are nothing more than a damage sponge that can toss out some heals every now and then.
You GF's won't be obsoleted, you'll be more needed than ever after the changes to show these holier than thou crusader wanna be's that are getting groups killed what real tanking is.
There really isn't. There isn't a single power in the entire game nor anything I've seen that OP has that will compete with ItF for group empowerment. There isn't a single power that will offer the pure mitigation and utility that KV has. They don't have the persistent threat generation potential that a GF has without resorting to hard taunt encounters. You GF's all are dreading this supposed beastly buffing tanking paladin which in reality only outshines you in the healing side of the equation. Personally I think the OP is going to a dissapointment. They have zero, zilch, nada damage potential and are nothing more than a damage sponge that can toss out some heals every now and then.
You GF's won't be obsoleted, you'll be more needed than ever after the changes to show these holier than thou crusader wanna be's that are getting groups killed what real tanking is.
Umm re-read divine oath and binding oath. Remember that ET has a 8 target cap and is not a hard taunt. Plaidin is a better tank.
I said it in the poll a few days ago but I considering this and the fact that I wanted a paladin class from the start I would like a respect for GFs. The way the game plays Paladin should just be an option for GF's. With Paladin and GWF it should be branches from the same tree. Start as a fighter and either go GWF for DPS or Pally for tanking.
Many of us have stated that this conversion should be made possible to save the GF player base.
What you are referring is actually the old DnD style, where the fighter was an aggregation sort of class and you could make the fighter a very versatile character.
Both Wizards moved- sadly- away from this point, so does the game. It's way cooler to say we got OP, than GF ver 2.0, but it's actually a GF or what the GF should have been. Even the word Knights Valor indicates some sort of strong relationship for the GF with a Paladin, but since the Paladin will be way OP compared to the GF, i can see the GF as only AD slave, maybe in PVP useful.
Everybody who played DnD in his life knows, that in 1v1 or in a group GF will have zero chance compared to a Paladin and players will choose the better one. GF could live on if either it could be respeced to Paladin or Paladin would not have the same class mechanics as a GF. But since there looks to be so little difference, i think the scale will favor Paladin.
All together i think there won't be a respec chance for GFs to Paladin, cause nearly 99% would do it and there wasn't a GF anymore.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
0
damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
There really isn't. There isn't a single power in the entire game nor anything I've seen that OP has that will compete with ItF for group empowerment. There isn't a single power that will offer the pure mitigation and utility that KV has. They don't have the persistent threat generation potential that a GF has without resorting to hard taunt encounters. You GF's all are dreading this supposed beastly buffing tanking paladin which in reality only outshines you in the healing side of the equation. Personally I think the OP is going to a dissapointment. They have zero, zilch, nada damage potential and are nothing more than a damage sponge that can toss out some heals every now and then.
You GF's won't be obsoleted, you'll be more needed than ever after the changes to show these holier than thou crusader wanna be's that are getting groups killed what real tanking is.
First off we haven't played the class yet so you cant say anything atm about dmg potential or about any of the other encounters outside what they have shown us and on the live stream the paladin in use had lvl 1 gear on Not to mention all of there encounters and skills function deferentially depending on what paragon path they take because they are the first new class that will launch with 2 from the get go..
What the class dose have is a constant passives that boost there threat generation by a extra 500% increases there DR by 10% and Gives POWER about 10% of there max HP worth. and thats just in the tanking path and thats a single passive skill. Oath of protection.
The also have a 360 degree CC immunity shift that boost there DR by 50% and allies dr by 20% if i watched correctly on the stream i believe it also function differently depending on the paragon path .
They also have Vow of Enmity: and its like a mark you can place on the target thats boost the dmg you and allies do to it by up to 40% but for tanking paladin it also has the effect of when allies hit the marked target or boss they Build more enmity towards the paladin. But until actually my hands on test all this is up in the air But it tanking for paladin pretty much seems like the class forces mobs to attack it they also have a at will that dose this as well so i guess its there theme
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
After having watched the stream, my main concern for Paladin is the dps and cooldowns. And why Charisma is the same as Wisdom and both are still significantly lower than Constitution. Maybe that's because the shift ability (which uses Stamina) appear to play the key role as it combined : movement + CC immunity + heals + blocking.
Heres the biggest issues. GF's have no feat synergy. Conqueror ALMOST had some with getting temp. hp when healed or crit and then doing 15% more dps while he had that temp. hp. But, his "guard" mechanic doesn't apply to temp. hp. so oh well. Powerful Challenge feat is hardly even in English. The cleave feat was clearly built for the old capstone of "never block and only cleave", and now is completely useless since stabbing from behind our shield is infinitely better, and the only thing that feat helps is buffing a strategy which the game discourages strongly (via the mark mechanic) for us to do. If we had a feat rework we'd be a lot stronger, and probably not need to worry about the OPal.
Next issue: OPal is easy mode. He has passive Threat (not marking with "enhanced mark" slotted, while making sure not to EVER be hit or lose that mark...). Just pure, passive, 500% threat for doing nothing, easy, no management tanking. He has 360 CC immunity while blocking. No sneaking around or flanking to get to his weak spot, just a giant glowy circle of "You can't hurt me! Ha ha ha!" This wouldn't really be an issue if GF's were buffed, as they could use the higher skill ceiling to get more bang for their buck, but as weak as we are right now, with our schizophrenic untranslated feats, its just another nail in the coffin.
0
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Heres the biggest issues. GF's have no feat synergy. Conqueror ALMOST had some with getting temp. hp when healed or crit and then doing 15% more dps while he had that temp. hp. But, his "guard" mechanic doesn't apply to temp. hp. so oh well. Powerful Challenge feat is hardly even in English. The cleave feat was clearly built for the old capstone of "never block and only cleave", and now is completely useless since stabbing from behind our shield is infinitely better, and the only thing that feat helps is buffing a strategy which the game discourages strongly (via the mark mechanic) for us to do. If we had a feat rework we'd be a lot stronger, and probably not need to worry about the OPal.
Next issue: OPal is easy mode. He has passive Threat (not marking with "enhanced mark" slotted, while making sure not to EVER be hit or lose that mark...). Just pure, passive, 500% threat for doing nothing, easy, no management tanking. He has 360 CC immunity while blocking. No sneaking around or flanking to get to his weak spot, just a giant glowy circle of "You can't hurt me! Ha ha ha!" This wouldn't really be an issue if GF's were buffed, as they could use the higher skill ceiling to get more bang for their buck, but as weak as we are right now, with our schizophrenic untranslated feats, its just another nail in the coffin.
Yes and no .
" Conqueror ALMOST had some with getting temp. hp when healed or crit and then doing 15% more dps while he had that temp. hp."
Not working at all this feat dont give you temp HP tested ower 5 hour with 50% crit chance .
OP only have 80 % dr can be reduced to 20% with the current arp " GWF special" .
GF mechanic you gain 2000 dmg your block ( 80 % dr) reduce it to 400 dmg and your DR( 50% dr) reduce it to 200 dmg .
But your shild DR cannot reduced by arp.
I AM Still lost as to why people are QQ about the OP when it dose not have Out right blocking like a GF can or NV and its taking style revolves around out right controlling/Banishing the mobs its targeting. I wil stick by and saying OP is a more active mob control style of tanking and the GF is more blocking Position oriented. Not to mention GF and deal considerably more dps with there encounters the what a OP can so far all OP has is AoE and DoT Effects also the reason OP needs that extra 500% threat gen
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I AM Still lost as to why people are QQ about the OP when it dose not have Out right blocking like a GF can or NV and its taking style revolves around out right controlling/Banishing the mobs its targeting. I wil stick by and saying OP is a more active mob control style of tanking and the GF is more blocking Position oriented. Not to mention GF and deal considerably more dps with there encounters the what a OP can so far all OP has is AoE and DoT Effects also the reason OP needs that extra 500% threat gen
True. However, you are forgetting that the OBP has a vast amount of hard taunts. This is what will kill GFs if this pushes through. The 500% extra threat gain also makes the OBP an easy mode sort of PVE tank. This, coupled with the many hard taunts in the OBP's arsenal will create the imbalance that people are claiming this change would make.
GFs should be the class with the most hard taunts. At the very least, increasing the GF's arsenal of taunts/hard taunts would help balance things between GFs and OBPs. The threat gain should also be reduced to 200%, same to the passive threat gain that the GFs currently have.
I AM Still lost as to why people are QQ about the OP when it dose not have Out right blocking like a GF can or NV and its taking style revolves around out right controlling/Banishing the mobs its targeting. I wil stick by and saying OP is a more active mob control style of tanking and the GF is more blocking Position oriented. Not to mention GF and deal considerably more dps with there encounters the what a OP can so far all OP has is AoE and DoT Effects also the reason OP needs that extra 500% threat gen
GF will need to slot Enhanced Mark feature, KV encounter, rank potent challenge heroic feat to compete with Paladin in threat generation. Lets see how much damage will a GF do with all that. Paladin, on the other hand, gets 500% threat generation by doing exactly nothing but choosing a paragon path. And on top of that Pala gets hard taunt aoe encounter and hard taunt at-will.
Moreover, he gets up to 10% of his max hp as power. And since he can get up to 5% hp per point of Con that easily makes 100k+ hp at max lvl. That's +10k power, buddy. Why do you keep saying that Paladin will not deal damage? Ignorant as ever.
GFs should be the class with the most hard taunts. At the very least, increasing the GF's arsenal of taunts/hard taunts would help balance things between GFs and OBPs. The threat gain should also be reduced to 200%, same to the passive threat gain that the GFs currently have.
I disagree with that. GF is a main tank. His threat generation is more than enough to keep the boss in check. Well, at least it was enough till Paladin came along. Sentinel GWF, however, as an off-tank should have gotten aoe hard taunt to keep adds away from the rest of the party.
As it is now, Paladin does main tank and off-tank roles way better than their respective classes.
0
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
Moreover, he gets up to 10% of his max hp as power. And since he can get up to 5% hp per point of Con that easily makes 100k+ hp at max lvl. That's +10k power, buddy. Why do you keep saying that Paladin will not deal damage? Ignorant as ever.
On preview, my 18 CON paladin had +20% HP. That's 2,5% per CON point above 10.
Or does that not scale linearly like for every other class?
Edit: Nevermind, there may be other feats that improve this, I haven't checked it all out.
Comments
Reminds me of EQ.
Pallys and SKs were good for regular PUG dungeon zones, but for the raids, you needed the Warriors to be your main tanks while Paladin's and SKs were your offtanks and really the buffers between the mobs and the squishies.
However, one thing that has crossed my mind while reading a lot of these posts is simply: 'Does the Paladin have something similar to the GF Guard'?
To me, this is an important question as the GF's Guard may allow the GF to take more damage (single and sustained) than what the Paladin might be able to.
I am concerned about the impact of changes made to Regen on the GF and how much this will affect the survivability of a GF 'tank' yet this seems to be the ideal that the Developers are aiming for in that there should be a necessity for every GF to have a healer in end content.
This does not seem (superficially) to be a bad thing, yet if a GF can't survive without a healer and the GF is incapable of dealing sufficient damage then there is likely to be serious problems.
The major difficulty that i perceive with the GF at present is quite simply that the GF should be able to consistently take as much damage as a DPS class can deal over the same duration with the same cooldowns. Similarly, the GF should be able to deal as much damage as a DPS class can take over the same duration with the same cooldowns.
From my perspective, this would indicate that the GF and other classes are 'balanced', yet currently (and for a very long time) this has not been the case and it does not look like it will be in the near future. Until such time as this re-balancing occurs, the GF is always likely to end up being the least 'capable' class in end content and PVP.
From the livestream it seems the protection paladin gets a block with 360 degree cc immunity and 60% DR but the 20% you lose compared to a GF gets added to nearby allies, also it slightly heals.
One problem comes in the more difficult, high damage dungeons like ELOL. Squishies have a tendency to take agro from us because of their raw DPS, thus gaining the attention of the mobs and healers. My GFs never just get immediately nuked down to a shred of health, which the healers automatically assume that I can take care of myself or they are busy DPSing and not healing.
The BIGGEST problem is the class direction. When OP releases, GFs will serve no purpose. GentlemanCrush's interpretation of the GF is that we should be soft controlling mobs by circling around and essentially kiting them - he said as much in the livestream. I'm sorry Crush, but every single GF player will say that is utterly useless. This is a tremendously boring task and I will more than likely shelve this game if that remains the case. The GF and the DC were meant to complement eachother, DC being the active component (healing, buff/debuff through well placed and timed skills to maximize efficiency) and GF being the passive component (threat management, damage buffing & party damage reduction will long durations).
The easiest way to see how borked GFs are is to just look at our feats. Outside of maybe 1 or 2 in each tree, there is simply NO synergy.
Mod 4 and Mod 5 were good to GFs. Gave us that role mentioned above. Mod 6 will take that away from us painfully.
And as usual, I won't pose an issue without giving solutions.
New class direction: Rebuild GFs as single target DPSers/Initiators/Damage Prevention.
~10-15% weapon damage increase.
~Enforced Threat: Reduce recharge by 30%, reduce damage by 20%, increase threat generation by 100%, reduce damage of all hit by 25% for 4 seconds.
~Griffon's Wrath: Reduce recharge by 50%.
~Lunging Strike: Causes 100% weapon damage bleed over 5 seconds and Marks all targets hit.
~Knights Challenge: REWORK. Increase damage to opponent by 50%, increase damage you take from all sources by 10%. Reduce damage to all other sources from challenged target by 30%. Immediately recharges all skills. Disables block. Increase recharge to 25 seconds.
~Kneebreaker: Fix the hitbox. Works on bosses and through Unstoppable. Each tick counts as a separate active instance of control.
~Anvil of Doom: Fix the hitbox. Killing an enemy with Anvil of Doom empowers you with "Emissary of Death" increasing damage to At-Wills by 20% for 15 seconds.
~Flourish: Immunity when casting. Lengthen duration between first hit & last hit by about .2-.3 seconds.
~Front Line Surge: Prone in PVP. Target cap increased to 8.
~Iron Warrior: Increase damage and damage resistance by 5% per rank. Double Temporary hit points given. Reduce stamina regeneration to 50%. All other buffs remain.
~Into the Fray: Reduce damage buff to 20% of resistance per rank. Triple temporary hit points given to self, double to team, increase self-deflection by 5% per rank, increase self-control resistance by 10% per rank, movement speed bonus remains. Increase recharge to 25 seconds. Duration 10 seconds.
~Knight's Valor: REWORK. Activated ability. The Guardian Fighter sacrifices half of his remaining health (prones self for 1.5 seconds) to apply a large damage resistance buff 20/30/40%, temporary hitpoints based on his/her missing hitpoints 10/20/30%, and a heal over time equal to 15% of the health sacrificed to all allies within 100'. Increase recharge to 25 seconds. Duration 10 seconds.
~Bull Charge: The Guardian Fighter becomes enraged and charges his enemy, knocking them prone. Reduce damage by 30%. Guardian gains Bull's Ferocity: Increase movement speed, damage, and damage taken by 5/10/15%for 4 seconds. If CC'd or blocked, you lose Bull's Ferocity. Bull's Ferocity may stack up to 3 times and is refreshed if any attacks are dodged while active. When Bull's Ferocity ends, you lose all stamina.
Oh and remove the target cap on Terrifying Impact. Increase radius and damage of Cleave.
The overall idea here is to allow the GF to do some fkin damage, give him some utility on PVP and a little risk v. reward vice blockblockblockblock daily blockblockblockblock (hence "fighter"). In addition, taking away those passive defensive measures and giving him/her active skills that allow a DC or OP an opportunity to rectify a mistake and save the team (hence "guardian").
Yep, that's because Warriors had Defensive Stance.. pretty much the only reason. If GF had a similar class specific skill.. then I would say our position would be secure as it was for Warrior's in EQ.
Those those of you who don't know.. the Defensive Stance ability in Original EQ, caused Warriors have a 50% damage reduction and 100% Threat Boost.. but did 1/2 damage. They also had an offensive stance that did the reverse... so there were DPS warriors too.
In EQ.. AC was a mystery stat.. so we knew wearing plate was better than wearing cloth... but how much.. maybe some math wiz folks knew.. but it was never published.
So tanks.. primarily tried to have massive HP pools and generate as much threat as possible.. as Warrior had weapons that "proc'ed" a pure threat spell vs. damage.
That might be another advantage that GF's will have.. I didn't hear that Paladin's had the enhanced benefit from CON that GF's have... and as a result could have significantly lower HitPoint Pools at 70.
- Forge (GF)
- Apocalypse - (DC)
- Sadus (OP)
- Fireball (GWF)
- Ixian (CW)
Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....
- Forge (GF)
- Apocalypse - (DC)
- Sadus (OP)
- Fireball (GWF)
- Ixian (CW)
Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....
AC wasn't too myseterious. Paladin's had the highest AC and were the best damage sponges, but they couldn't hold agro to save their life.
While that could work in some games, the way the engine is set, I'd say that that is complete impossible in this game.
Don't you play your paladin differently than GF and DC?. I mean, Paladins can do both, heal and tank, but GF can mitigate damage and DCs can dps, heal and also mitigate damage dramatically. DCs can even solo because they are so good at what they are doing. How can paladin complete with those two classes. In real dungeon runs I mean. Because here is the example: DCs have divinity, thanks to that mechanic, they can cast more often and buff their encounters, their feats are far different from paladin ones? they can do so much that paladins don't. And so does paladins?... so basically, it's all good isn't?
There really isn't. There isn't a single power in the entire game nor anything I've seen that OP has that will compete with ItF for group empowerment. There isn't a single power that will offer the pure mitigation and utility that KV has. They don't have the persistent threat generation potential that a GF has without resorting to hard taunt encounters. You GF's all are dreading this supposed beastly buffing tanking paladin which in reality only outshines you in the healing side of the equation. Personally I think the OP is going to a dissapointment. They have zero, zilch, nada damage potential and are nothing more than a damage sponge that can toss out some heals every now and then.
You GF's won't be obsoleted, you'll be more needed than ever after the changes to show these holier than thou crusader wanna be's that are getting groups killed what real tanking is.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Umm re-read divine oath and binding oath. Remember that ET has a 8 target cap and is not a hard taunt. Plaidin is a better tank.
Edit: Oath. Binding Oath....
Many of us have stated that this conversion should be made possible to save the GF player base.
What you are referring is actually the old DnD style, where the fighter was an aggregation sort of class and you could make the fighter a very versatile character.
Both Wizards moved- sadly- away from this point, so does the game. It's way cooler to say we got OP, than GF ver 2.0, but it's actually a GF or what the GF should have been. Even the word Knights Valor indicates some sort of strong relationship for the GF with a Paladin, but since the Paladin will be way OP compared to the GF, i can see the GF as only AD slave, maybe in PVP useful.
Everybody who played DnD in his life knows, that in 1v1 or in a group GF will have zero chance compared to a Paladin and players will choose the better one. GF could live on if either it could be respeced to Paladin or Paladin would not have the same class mechanics as a GF. But since there looks to be so little difference, i think the scale will favor Paladin.
All together i think there won't be a respec chance for GFs to Paladin, cause nearly 99% would do it and there wasn't a GF anymore.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
I could be wrong yet I was fairly confident that ET has a target cap of 20, not 8. Do you know something I don't?
It was changed to 20 in mod4, not sure if the tooltip was changed or not.
First off we haven't played the class yet so you cant say anything atm about dmg potential or about any of the other encounters outside what they have shown us and on the live stream the paladin in use had lvl 1 gear on Not to mention all of there encounters and skills function deferentially depending on what paragon path they take because they are the first new class that will launch with 2 from the get go..
What the class dose have is a constant passives that boost there threat generation by a extra 500% increases there DR by 10% and Gives POWER about 10% of there max HP worth. and thats just in the tanking path and thats a single passive skill. Oath of protection.
The also have a 360 degree CC immunity shift that boost there DR by 50% and allies dr by 20% if i watched correctly on the stream i believe it also function differently depending on the paragon path .
They also have Vow of Enmity: and its like a mark you can place on the target thats boost the dmg you and allies do to it by up to 40% but for tanking paladin it also has the effect of when allies hit the marked target or boss they Build more enmity towards the paladin. But until actually my hands on test all this is up in the air But it tanking for paladin pretty much seems like the class forces mobs to attack it they also have a at will that dose this as well so i guess its there theme
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Next issue: OPal is easy mode. He has passive Threat (not marking with "enhanced mark" slotted, while making sure not to EVER be hit or lose that mark...). Just pure, passive, 500% threat for doing nothing, easy, no management tanking. He has 360 CC immunity while blocking. No sneaking around or flanking to get to his weak spot, just a giant glowy circle of "You can't hurt me! Ha ha ha!" This wouldn't really be an issue if GF's were buffed, as they could use the higher skill ceiling to get more bang for their buck, but as weak as we are right now, with our schizophrenic untranslated feats, its just another nail in the coffin.
Yes and no .
" Conqueror ALMOST had some with getting temp. hp when healed or crit and then doing 15% more dps while he had that temp. hp."
Not working at all this feat dont give you temp HP tested ower 5 hour with 50% crit chance .
OP only have 80 % dr can be reduced to 20% with the current arp " GWF special" .
GF mechanic you gain 2000 dmg your block ( 80 % dr) reduce it to 400 dmg and your DR( 50% dr) reduce it to 200 dmg .
But your shild DR cannot reduced by arp.
GF can survive 2000000 dmg what OP/GWF cannot .
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
True. However, you are forgetting that the OBP has a vast amount of hard taunts. This is what will kill GFs if this pushes through. The 500% extra threat gain also makes the OBP an easy mode sort of PVE tank. This, coupled with the many hard taunts in the OBP's arsenal will create the imbalance that people are claiming this change would make.
GFs should be the class with the most hard taunts. At the very least, increasing the GF's arsenal of taunts/hard taunts would help balance things between GFs and OBPs. The threat gain should also be reduced to 200%, same to the passive threat gain that the GFs currently have.
GF will need to slot Enhanced Mark feature, KV encounter, rank potent challenge heroic feat to compete with Paladin in threat generation. Lets see how much damage will a GF do with all that. Paladin, on the other hand, gets 500% threat generation by doing exactly nothing but choosing a paragon path. And on top of that Pala gets hard taunt aoe encounter and hard taunt at-will.
Moreover, he gets up to 10% of his max hp as power. And since he can get up to 5% hp per point of Con that easily makes 100k+ hp at max lvl. That's +10k power, buddy. Why do you keep saying that Paladin will not deal damage? Ignorant as ever.
I disagree with that. GF is a main tank. His threat generation is more than enough to keep the boss in check. Well, at least it was enough till Paladin came along. Sentinel GWF, however, as an off-tank should have gotten aoe hard taunt to keep adds away from the rest of the party.
As it is now, Paladin does main tank and off-tank roles way better than their respective classes.
On preview, my 18 CON paladin had +20% HP. That's 2,5% per CON point above 10.
Or does that not scale linearly like for every other class?
Edit: Nevermind, there may be other feats that improve this, I haven't checked it all out.
Rank 5 heroic feat gives up to +2.5% HP per point in con.
Well, that sounds a bit unfair. Maybe GF could get something to boost it up to 5% per CON as well? Or perhaps even more...
It's also unfair because it applies to their healing paragon path as well. They'll be healers with more HP than GF tanks? -.-