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Oathbound Paladin has made Guardian Fighters obsolete
overdriver13
Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
Doom and gloom??? Really??? Funny how the future can be so precisely predicted based on past actions et these predictions are censored for being "doom and gloom" when in reality they are 100% correct. I think it is a darn shame when the game-makers make fools out of the people who are charged with moderating their forums.
Oathbound Paladin will be able to tank more effectively than guardian fighter in every single way.
From the dev blog:
A picture of you new Oathbound Paladin (from the dev blog)
It is a Guardian Fighter all over again. But instead of reworking the class to make it viable they just ignored it and made the Oathbound Paladin to replace it.
Everyone who has made a GF and invested time and money in it must really feel stupid right now.
Oathbound Paladin will be able to tank more effectively than guardian fighter in every single way.
From the dev blog:
Oathbound – Protection: Your Damage Resistance is increased by 10%, you generate 500% more threat. When you take damage you gain power proportional to the amount of damage you took. This bonus caps at 10% of your Max HP in power.
Divine Call – Protection: Consume a charge of Divine Call and taunt all foes in a 30' area. You gain 10% increased Damage Resistance for 10 seconds and reflect 5% of incoming damage while this buff is active. This reflection cannot exceed 5% of your Maximum Hit Points.
Firstly is the Oath of Protection which turns the Paladin into a powerful tank who can protect allies and avert harm. Protection Paladins focus very heavily on generating a large amount of threat and generating Temporary Hit Points and protective shields that allow them to shrug off damage and keep fighting. As a powerful example of this method of tanking, let’s take a look at the encounter power that is unique to Protection Paladins, Binding Oath.
Binding Oath: All targets near the Paladin are forced to attack him for 2 seconds. During this time he absorbs all damage against him. When this effect expires he takes 50% of that damage and deals 50% of it to all foes in an AoE. Players affected by this power deal 75% less damage to targets who are not the Paladin.
This power fills a few special spots in the Paladin’s kit that allow him to perform his role. With his focus on applying shields and preventing incoming damage, he can use this power to command all nearby foes to attack him, letting him use his powerful shielding techniques to delay and slow incoming damage while dealing a lot of damage back to his foes. This can easily be used in conjunction with another encounter power, Absolution, to create a potent defensive wall that allows the Paladin to redirect an incredible amount of damage to foes.
Absolution: The Paladin puts a powerful absorption shield on himself or target ally. This shield lasts until it breaks. The Paladin may have this shield on himself and one other ally at any given time.
A picture of you new Oathbound Paladin (from the dev blog)
It is a Guardian Fighter all over again. But instead of reworking the class to make it viable they just ignored it and made the Oathbound Paladin to replace it.
Everyone who has made a GF and invested time and money in it must really feel stupid right now.
Post edited by overdriver13 on
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A little premature, aren't we? Paladin isn't even released yet, and still you have the 'fact' that it will make the GF obsolete (past-tense, even(!)). LOL
GF will be as obsolete as the Wizard became when the Warlock arrived.
It's all in the numbers for the powers when it's released. The devil is in the details.
That's already better than anything a 'damage oriented" Cong feat will give you. Pathetic....
I really would like for them to say just what role they have in mind for a GF with there changes planned to life steal and regen . And for me Regen being the biggest from a low DPS Gf point of view just how are we to play. If at all.
well...
preventively the control of control wizard was increased abruptly, making the cw the absolute in what he was already the best: control (correct move... just forget to take the damage).
so... you got the point. fighters will need some (real) love now in other new area to be discovered.
The Livestream showed-off some of what it does - this thing is gonna be fun.
Though many GF player will complain about some of the agro abilities of Paladin, I still don't think it diminishes GFs by much at all. It's a very different play style for sure.
Shift is all paladins create an zone around them and are immune to cc get 30% dr team gets 10%dr and heals all within
Devotion gets a 500% bonus to shift heal
Protection gets 60% DR and 20% DR to team
New Tier 3 Feats:
Conq =
Jagged Blades = Bleed After Crit for 50/100/150/200/250 of weapon damage for 15 seconds.
Crushing Shield = Shield Slam / Tide of Iron damage increase by 4/8/12/16/20%
Prod:
Unshakable Line = Each Ally within 20' = 2/4/6/8/10% Stamina Regen
Devoted Protector = 1/2/3/4/5% Deflection Change increase while blocking for 6 seconds.
Tactician:
Rousing Speech = 1/2/3/4/5% Action Point Increase within 30'
United = 1/2/3/4/5% Less Damage witin 30'
- Forge (GF)
- Apocalypse - (DC)
- Sadus (OP)
- Fireball (GWF)
- Ixian (CW)
Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....
Desperation Survival = 3% Deflection Chance Increase and 30% Stamina Regen while below 30% Hitpoints (Add 1% and +5% Hitpoint Threshold per rank)
Shield Warrior's Wrath = Successful Block 1% damage increase, Stacks up to 5 times lasts 15 seconds. (Add 1% per rank to damage)
So Max Ranks =
5% Deflection @ 40% Hitpoints
3% damage x5 Stacking to 15% damage for 15 seconds
- Forge (GF)
- Apocalypse - (DC)
- Sadus (OP)
- Fireball (GWF)
- Ixian (CW)
Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....
You can name of a bunch of specific gimmick ways to make it work but really there's only room for one aggro manager in a group. If it came down to GF vs OP even I would take the OP... They simply do our job better then we do based on what i've seen today.
Perhaps. Here's to hoping they'll rebalance (read: buff-up) the GF some more. My GF has been an invoker since the DC updates, to be truthful about it. I still love playing it, but in full disclosure: Paladin has always been my favorite since before Neverwinter.
I playedwith it some on preview. Regen that only works ouside of combat is indeed worthless. Pots cost nothing and can be spammed outside combat. Oddly you can make LS work with a GF by slotting nothing but big-hit single-target powers. A 10% chance to heal 100% is the same as a 100% chance to heal 10% just so long as you only make big hits. Of course this also means that anything that has a dot or any reflective damage becomes a bad idea. Not that any of that matters because the diminishing returns on stats they are using means that unless L70 gear has thousands of points in stats you are going to be in pretty sorry shape.
1. Aggroing a mob? How about forced aggro for 2 seconds and 500% threat generation.
2. DPS problem? How about 10% of your max hit points in power
3. Buffing party? How about more DR to members, damage mitigation, AP gain and damage increase and recovery at farther range.
4. Debuffing enemies? Yeah, Pally got that too.
5. Immunity? How about 360' immunity to CC.
6. Pokey slow? How about 20% movement increase.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
30% DR will be enough to take a 50% DR character to 80% which as far as I know is the cap, and without the front restriction, and it buffs the group. But what really chaps me is most of the time I die it is because I got a CC from slightly behind me, and DPS while prone kills me. I spend most of my mental effort while tanking making sure all CCs come from the front arc.
To make that thing comparable to our block it would have to have no personal buff (only applying the group buff) + personal CC immunity imo. Maybe it will drain stamina much faster than block or they won't have good ways to get stamina back as fast? There must be something they didn't say?
Well my initial post here was a bit dramatic but well justified.
They will not "balance-up" gf. The class is and has been only nerfed from the start. This is true: Whatever change you think would make sense as a player, the devs will consistently do the opposite. Sense= out of hand refining/devs do= more and more refining. Sense = sw's need some real survivability to be at all viable in pvp/devs do= totally nerf the only survival ability that sws have (lifesteal). Sense= TR daze and stealth and piercing damage be toned down/devs do= new tr capstones cause all of the players in combat to be dazed/take piercing damage every time the tr goes into stealth. Sense= rework guardian fighter class to make it viable in both pve and pvp/devs do= ignore guardian fighters and create a brand new shiny class with a paragon path that is exactly what a reworked/viable gf class would look like. Sense= GF gets balanced up, YOU CAN BET GFs will either be entirely ignored by the devs or they will find a way to nerf it even more...oh wait they DID nerf it again by allowing regen to only work out of combat.
Sorry but this game is becoming more and more a total slap in the ace to anyone who has taken it seriously enough to invest significant time or money in it.
This is my point. GF's fill a very specific niche that really is not in so much demand anyways. OP looks like a GF and does everything the gf does better than the gf and has additional benefits to boot.
GF has been made obsolete by OP. It is plain to see. Wizard was always a very popular class that was not entirely neglected by the devs. It fills a very important niche that is in high demand (control). GF is not a popular class and enjoys none of the high-demand abilities that wizards do (dps and control).
It was a catch 22 situation.
People played the GF, saw that it was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and it became no love from Devs, the GF player numbers went under the floor and now except a few newbies and hard core oldies nobody plays it. Utterly bugged, so much, that even an old GF player like me gets annoyed, when i see all the bugs in the GF game play.
It will stay there as a class to choose, some newbies, who don't know, what happened over this year and a half will try their luck and PR wise it's cool to say, we have GF class to, but as i said R.I.P. GF...
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
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David Icke
Kinda weak move.
If one stops playing a class because of flavor of the month, then it is oneself obsoleting one's own character. Play what you want and don't worry about what is some preconceived (and I might add, HIGHLY speculative at this point) notion of what is best.
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Technically you gave a politically correct answer but does not answer any of the legitimate concerns communicated through these collective posts.
The Guardian Fighter class as it stands is undeniably weak (our key stat Defense faces a harsh stat curve where the DPS classes get unlimited benefits from Power) and is hardly contested by the community you moderate. This is a persistent complaint that has been present since I started playing Neverwinter. While alot of people are complaining really all the people who choose to play Guardian Fighter wants is to be on par with the rest of the classes in this game in terms of ability.
The battle-cleric types are versatile, and in some cases can become even more tankier than the shield-fighter types, but its aggro management is very low and hence is often inadequate to lead the party as a main tank. Aggros being spread around would often tear the party apart as it becomes increasingly more difficult for the battle-cleric to heal and buff and then protect yourself at the same time.
Conversely, shield-fighter types tend to me much more resilient against direct physical attacks, but weaker against magical/elemental attacks, and despite its generally higher defense and offense capabilities, it is entirely possible that a battle-cleric may outlast him due to the difference in self-heals. However, team-wise, shield-fighters provide the ULTIMATE protection to the team with its unmatched ability to draw aggro and take alpha-attacks, and hence its importance remains the same.
...
Of course, you will realize that the above holds only true when the game is sufficiently difficult enough to require a specialized tank class to hold aggros. It also requires a game to be slightly complex as it differentiates between damage types -- at the least physical/magical two types, in many cases physical/magical/elemental three types, and in some hard-core games easily 4, 5 or even more types.
But NW? Nope. No such thing as different damage types. No need for real aggro holding anyway.
So yes, OP does make the GF obsolete.
It also means that the only way the GF doesn't become obsolete, is to increase the difficulty of PvE so a lot more classes then cease to become self-sustaining, and therefore requires a more cooperative active role-distribution within a party. It means returning to the 'trinity' system.
In other words, unless someone NEEDS the GF, the GF is obsolete. The only way someone NEEDS the GF is that it becomes competent in some ways that the OPal cannot be... and unfortunately, the way how NW PvE is set up now, such 'ways' currently do not exist.
Now, if the mobs become a lot more deadlier, with faster attacks, with fast-activating CCs of their own without any stupid red telegraphs. if the mobs can react fast enough to open up with a massive alpha strike that all concentrates on the very first aggro, if the mobs are smarter and identify spellcasters and healers faster and their aggro tends to jump around a lot, if some of the more powerful mobs are easily CC resistant and especially magic resistant.... and if damage types are separated... under these conditions GF and the OPal can coexist.
Basically, it is my opinion that all source of evil in PvE basically comes from the fact that it is way too casual to really need any role distribution, hence fundamentally contradicting the game in terms of "ROLE playing".
You don't need different roles in NW. All you need is DPS. Frankly, any games that purport to be "free of the trinity", simply means a game with bad balance and players who like being munchkins with OP firepower and steamrolling the content.
Also, I haven't seen anything like Knight's Valor from Paladin, until we have that, we're still safe... somehow.
Are you sure that with out regen and Dc,you will be a ble to hold KV active in level 70 adds????
paladin will have 20-30% more DR than us.GWF will reach 60%-70% DR while lesss than 50% health....
Both of these classes will have 2x-3x our DPS.We are doomed.
About DPS:OP will have an encounter that gives you 5% of your HP in power.Remember stalwart bulkwark?
Paladin is the new Guardian Fighter V2.0.The devs decided to scrap the old one.
Ah i forgot:
Binding Oath: All targets near the Paladin are forced to attack him for 2 seconds. During this time he absorbs all damage against him. When this effect expires he takes 50% of that damage and deals 50% of it to all foes in an AoE. Players affected by this power deal 75% less damage to targets who are not the Paladin.""
^^
KV remastered.Plus DPS
From what I've seen on PTS yes (in fact I've done it without healers even, monsters hit so low it's not even fun), then again we need to see how the numbers in detail will work out at level 70, so we can't say anything final yet. Of course if difficulty keeps on scaling this way, I'm pretty confident I will be able to keep it up with decent gear.
Also the paladin could switch to healer and heal me if there's no DC in sight. DC could object that OP healing + auras will make DC obsolete. But somehow I doubt that will happen.
Binding Oath is completely different from Knight's Valor. It's more similar to Enforced Threat from what I can see. Consider they don't have Mark, and mark increases the whole party DPS as well.