You've picked out a few random encounters and the math certainly is good in showing how buffs do and don't stack. That doesn't alter the fact that some forms of damage will still outclass others in a single target DPS. Specifically, I am talking about how Duelist Flurry did 25% of the Head's HP while Lashing Blade did only 4% in an instance where you couldn't get better stacked debuffs/buffs.
Duelist Flurry: 4%
Duelist Flurry Hit: 5%
Duelist Flurry Bleed: 16%
THEN they did 11% more with Shadow of Demise.
TOTAL: 31%
If you break it down to what 3 Executioner TRs with Duelist Flurry did, that's 31% of the damage on the heads by themselves. And that's before you factor in a single one of their Encounter Powers. It doesn't matter how big you make your orange numbers for Icy Rays with buffs/debuffs.
You can replicate some of the same effect by substituting those TRs with SS Thaumaturge CWs because of Storm Spell-Assailant, although you won't have near enough problems with the DOT tick in the first round. You can't substitute in GWF or GF. Understanding that doesn't mean overstacking an instance with TRs or barring other classes, it just means debuffs/buffs won't counter the complete absence of a small set of skills and feats. That's useful to know if you are say, a Guild trying to timer in a group.
Why do you think we have to stop damaging the heads on the first round at 4 or 5 bars of health to make sure the final HP total of the head doesn't drop below 2 bars (10%)? It's the DOTs and Bleed damage that is still ticking. I've seen one instance where the tick was high enough to clear 16% of the head's HP and kill it.
I have switched out from my Righteous DC to my SS Thau CW, and this is from a round last night where a DC was using Hallowed Ground, plus we had all the usual other debuffs/buffs. Although Urs has a GPF instead of a PV. Remedy's last instance cleared with 32 seconds left in the 3rd round, this one with only 7 seconds in the last round. So these are the 7 Ice Knives done to the Black Tiamat Head from 5 CWs (4%), a pie-chart of what killed the head, and my own DPS break down.
So the Ice Knives, showing base and actual damage for each:
Contrast to the BTH ex I gave earlier, where 31% was done by 3 Executioner TRs. This is 5 CWs, only 4 using Storm Spell (10%), and I was the only Thaumaturge procing Assailant (3%). We 5 reached 31% of the BTH's damage, but that includes our encounter powers. 3 TRs with full debuffs/buffs v. 5 CWs with full debuffs/buffs:
Interestingly enough, we had one Executioner TR using Duelist Flurry v. one non-Executioner using Sly Flourish. The Duelist Flurry TR did 15% of the damage between DF and Shadow of Demise. The other TR did only 2% with Sly Flourish. Overall, that's easily 50% of the damage by only seven people. Icy Rays? <1%.
This is Urs' % breakdown of damage over the whole run, to show how much of an effect Assailant has.
So... not all damage is created equal.
When Tiamat started (seems like forever), and those first 2-3 days were so awful, I sat down and thought some things over. I had been running Urs, and I switched to Remedy. At first I used Hallowed Ground, and then I switched to using Guardian of Faith in those first 3 seconds when the zerg hits the dragon head. Spike healing the squishies when they were most likely to be in danger dramatically reduced the number of fails I was having. If you start loosing TRs and the like who have to run back and don't do any DPS, there will be a point at which no debuff/buff will compensate.
most of the players, even high geared are "squishies " if not buffed by damage resistance or Damage boost (--> more selfheal)
think the green and the blue head wipes out lots of high geared player when crusing through the aoe, so what would be better 15% mitigation/DR or a "Hammer" that doesn´t prevent anyone from beeing onehittet (left Dragon head)
so lots of theorycrafting and ACT-missunderstanding, sometimes its better to read the tooltext...
keep it short please again, its not better posting hundreds of coulorfull maps and words without making sense
I have 180 Wins in 202 Runs. 89% success rating.
(Tiamat doesn't mix well with State of the Union Drinking Parties. So I'm under 90% now.)
If you are < 50% health, your pots are on cooldown, you've lost soul-forged and can do zero DPS, do you want 15% mitigation or a 20k heal?
That's Guardian of Faith btw. Anointed Champions don't have Hammer.
Not that I've found a DC using Hammer in the last week of ACT runs.
0
clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
If you start loosing TRs and the like who have to run back and don't do any DPS, there will be a point at which no debuff/buff will compensate.
True, you do no damage when you are dead, but going back to the first post, its Hallowed Ground vs. Hammers, btw. Hallowed Ground also provides a defense buff, Hammers do not. No amount of stats and pie graphs can hide the fact that using Hammers over HG is pathetic. Overlapping HG is pointless, but I prefer to see that over no HG used at all. And yes, you can defeat Tiamat with mega rogues and no clerics, but I have had enough encounters with my alt (which is not a cleric) to see incredibly bad play from some clerics, play that really meant the difference between success and failure. They should be barked at, whether they did it out of stubborness or stupidity, they just wasted 20 minutes of others peoples time.
0
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited January 2015
Its not like most instances you do not have multiple clerics as well.. as long as ONE was dropping HG, then your maximizing benefits.
Im not saying every DC has to do it, but when you notice NO dc is doing it, and your on your DC, you might as well be the one.
Secondly, my arguments mostly stem from LOWER dps groups, IN NEED of dps boosting and HG provides that and a good dc can do 3 HGs in each phase.
If your team is going to 2 phase it no matter what, then heck, slot whatever you want, use bastion for all I care.
Thirdly, your basically saying cws/trs need your guardian to stay upright.. I find that a little over-zealous of a statement.
The original argument is why people dont use HG and some presented the fact that HG now blocks DC A/P gain (discounting of course your DC sigal and AP cloak ) which most of us chimed in with, shouldn't be discounted. Every DC can do at least 2 hgs, and probably 3 on every phase. Thats more benefit then 4-5 hammer of fates.
There is no doubt in my mind that you can do this with multiple approaches, but to discount HG is also a little unreasonable.
Here's the part I find...curious: it seems to be all the *other classes* wanting or expecting, or even in a couple comments: appearing to demand that DCs use Hallowed Ground. It's the same as people telling the Devs how to code their game. Or a burger-flipper telling an engineer what he's doing wrong. It would be funny if it weren't so... sad.
As for AP generation with artifacts and other gear: fine, give your pet DC that artifact or gear. To expect anyone else to be geared-up the way you want them to be is ludicrous at best. I'm intrigued at many, if not most of the comments in this thread. It almost feels like the torches and pitchforks are out in force against a class if that class isn't spec'd they way all the other classes want them to be.
This portion of my comment is directed at the thread commentary in general, not to any particular person:
//rant-on
If you're not playing a DC it's must be pretty easy to tell a DC to do what you want them to do, isn't it? Solution: If you want another class to play a certain way then perhaps you should play that class. This is just an observation. I don;t mean create an alt and dabble, but really play that class. For real.
Obviously there are a lot of [inexperienced] players in all classes, regardless if it's their player skill, gear score, encounter power choices and all the rest. However there also are a lot of really good players who play differently from what you expect them to play. I've been playing DC from alpha/beta through to now. I consider myself pretty darned good at it. Yet I still actively choose not to slot HG. But I also don't use Hammer. There are other dailies I prefer. If you don't like how I play my class then you have a personal issue.
Just because I'm not using HG doesn't mean I'm not contributing to the team. I don;t think anyone has any business telling the DC (or any other class they aren't actively playing) how to play his class. Everyone has their own play style and frankly, though Kaelec's DC guide is a really good one, it ain't all-that. I get the impression some of the 'other classes' are looking at that guide and then judging whether a DC is a good player or not based on what they're seeing.
Not everyone is a min-maxer and neither should min-maxers expect everyone to be. As a DC Main these two years (yes, it's two years now) I've learned to (more or less) ignore what other classes say I should do. I do what I do, haven't gotten any legitimate complaints recently (beotching that I'm not using HG or some other stupid complaint isn't legitimate in my book).
My purview on complaints like this (not the OP - he was just asking a question, but rather to a lot of the replies): play your own class to the best of your ability and let me play mine the way I see fit. Anything else is just selfish elitism.
//rant-off
Seriously: people shouldn't take this game so seriously. It's a *game*. You'd do well to focus on your character rather than worry about others. Win or lose your own contribution to the effort affects it just as much as the others and it sure seems easy to blame a failure on someone else. Blaming a failed party run on another character class is just a cheap shot when you should be blaming the specific player themselves, if in fact that's where the problem lay.
What I'm seeing here is a sweeping accusation against an entire class, rather than actual blame where it deserves to go.
There, I feel better to get that load off. I am open to flame-throwing now. LOL
I had one DC respec in the middle of a dungeon because he/she had no idea what he/she was doing. I got another GWF to respec before a dungeon 'cause he just put points into anything that sounded "cool." Their actions and their goals were not aligned.
I am all for weird builds/comps/playstyles - as long as they are effective (not min/max - effective).
Go hard or go home.
That's what teamwork is for.
If you can't/won't communicate with the team - go play single-player.
Taking it too seriously? Yes and no. Not serious enough to rage, but serious enough to care and perform well.
everyone must accept that--> going random Tiamat is a lottery, i don´t talk about 20k+ who team up and go at 00:34 or whatever
so you can decide to buff ur mates or not
if i go tiamat, beeing a little bit small minded and not team competent, i take my drake clothes (more stats for me), spam bastion of health big numbers-but my mates might be onehittet-not my problem, use chains or daunting light and hope for my teammates to buff my damage encounters doing the biggest numbers
not spending any mitigation or buff to others, hoping to be under the first three or at least behind the TR in my personal damage meter
in the end i lose, especially when there are similiar supects like mine on the run
no graphic will give answer in this case, btw i can´t read them without a loupe, but if u got eyes and ears u can see the heads melting after starting buffing/debuffing and my mediocre encounter i use spit big numbers never seen- it really is a very simple calculation
Welcome to the internet, where everyone is out to get you.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2015
I did start using it again in group content over the past week and I've come to enjoy it again. Not sure if something was stealth changed or not or my perception of it just changed, but it did seem to help a lot in a few areas of Epic VT and Spellplague. I haven't been in Tiamat since I stopped used it though but I will use it there too, but I'll keep Anvil slotted too.
I respect the fact, that everyone has his own style. Play as you like, but plz have in mind, that this is a group game. You have to play according to the needs of your group.
If you are a buff/debuff/dps speced DC in a weak group, they all die like flies, you could win, if you would heal, but you refuse to heal, bc 'it is not your style' you are a bad player for group content.
If you are a heal speced DC in a weak group, they dont have enough dps, you could win, if you would buff/debuff, but you refuse to buff/debuff, bc 'it is not your style' you are a bad player for group content.
The freedom for individuality is very high in this game, bc there is no real endcontent. You can solo/duo allmost everything atm. I still think, that a decent goup with SW, DC, GF, CW and another high dps class can kill Tiamats heads in 3 rounds, if the rest is semi competent and helps out at the cleric phase.
BUT in real end content there is no room for individuality. It would be, that it is doable with the perfect combination of classes, gear and spec. If ppl want challenging endcontent, they will either have to build it for a specific setup or it will be a callenge for 90% and a faceroll for 10% with basic knowlege of group mechanics and a group/setup using this to their advantage.
BUT in real end content there is no room for individuality. It would be, that it is doable with the perfect combination of classes, gear and spec. If ppl want challenging endcontent, they will either have to build it for a specific setup or it will be a callenge for 90% and a faceroll for 10% with basic knowlege of group mechanics and a group/setup using this to their advantage.
Highlight in the quote is mine. And it makes this point: Leveling content is all about individuality. And now this individuality goes until level 70. From start to end game co-op (read: Party or Group) play is only 10% of the entire experience and that's only if the player chooses to do every dungeon and skirmish (PvP doesn't count in this argument).
Now consider this from the perspective of a NEW PLAYER or someone's ALT who is not familiar with the DC and it's workings...
The OP Question is "Why no Hallowed Ground?" - The answer is simple: it is one of two choices of your very first Daily Power level two. In solo play it's already difficult enough to earn action points, HG does not generate any. So most DCs will go with Flame Strike because HG 1) mostly benefits a group, but we are deep into solo play right now and 2) does not generate, nay: delays Action Point generation for the duration. This player cannot even do any co-op play except for Blacklake Skirmish. That's it. They are focussed on getting the encounters and dailies to help them survive the leveling process that early in the game.
So the DC who is 90% in solo mode is going to slot the encounters and dailies that benefit her the most during the solo excursions. Now this DC *might* throw one point into HG just so it can be slotted during a skirmish or DD. ONE. POINT. And only if they feel like "throwing away" a power point. So even if that DC has HG - it's a weak one.
So when does the DC actually invest into HG? Likely not until they actually do reach end-game level cap, and then only when they start doing a lot more instanced co-op play, and then only when they have the points to do it (overflow XP, anyone?). And the way people are kicked from Delves so often... well, you can figure it out.
I said all that to say this: The Tiamat "raid" is a once-off mass effort. If a DC hasn't slotted their HG, or only minimally invested in it up to this point it's unlikely that they'll do so just for the Tiamat "raid", and neither should they be expected to. For a DC who already does a lot of co-op play: well, they're experienced enough to know to invest in HG and go with that. In the end: whining and crying, suggesting and recommending what some other class other than the one you're playing is really a big waste of breath.
I am not debunking anyone else's argument for or against this idea, I am simply saying it's all academic at best because people are gonna play the way they're gonna play. How it affects you is your issue, not theirs. And this is true no matter what your class is and what the other person's class is.
If you really want new DC players to seriously consider investing then slotting Hallowed Ground: Hallowed Ground Daily needs to not even be available until level 40-something because by then the new DC player will understand why they would want it.
The Tiamat fight has become a serious thorn in most peoples ***. From the random queue to the 10k gs requirement this encounter/fight has caused more grief and out right hostility than any other thing I have seen in game. DCs have become scapegoats for every lag issue in every Tiamat run I have been in. I get yelled at for using Astral Seal all the time and I am Righteous and only use Brand of the Sun. I get yelled at for using Hallowed Ground. I get yelled at for not using Hallowed Ground. As for someone of another class coming on the DC form and demanding DCs use this or that, well you can just p**s off. We do not go to the CW forums and demand they do not use Ice Storm and Repel or go to the GF forums and demand they do not use Knights Valor or rail against PVPers who just come and stand in red circles and do no damage. The fight is just at times frustrating as hell.
DCs who have been around awhile or Veteran MMOers know what to do but there are a lot of inexperienced players in every class who get to queue for the fight just like anyone else who has a 10k gs.
lags are not my problem, even so i never, really never was "yelled at" using anything
just went tiamat- no one buffed /debuffed and.....mega fail
half the raid was onehittet at first dragon two times, yes even the chars >30k HP, so don´t tell anything about the need of buffing or not, even if u are a "veteran" lol
I'm new to NW and Clerics. My first and only toon just hit 60 a few weeks ago. I am however an experienced MMO player and have played a lot of Cryptics Defender/ Debuffer/ Healing classses and it not that hard. I run a set of HP I bought use BtS. BoH, SB, DA and HG.. 5 attempts 5 wins only healing and debuffing and in Gold loot at end... Got some sweet armor pieces... To me it's not a matter of playing the play style I want, it's about playing to the toons strengths and winning. Just seems obvious to me.
Quite surprise that this thread is still alive. I thought we are already past this topic of blame.
Granted, "No Astral Seals" shout are still visible till today.
Hallowed Ground is often seen, and more often than not overlapped.
The fails at recent week are all credited to:
- Low DPS
Let's face this, you will notice as soon as hitting on the black head. Don't even need to see if the raid can reach Red in first head phase
- Clueless Chickens
Not sure why most people like going left and get green gem. I've experienced more than a handful over past week this happening with people waiting at Severin and then realised no one had hit blue/white.
- Cleric Phase Fails
I think this is the above Clueless Chickens upgrade.
One of the clerics left alone or undermanned while another hitting the full bar in no time at all.
Seriously not sure why it's so difficult to spread yourselves according to the gem you took (left-ish or right-ish).
Easiest is to hang around mid cleric and spread after monitoring the first 30secs to a minute of the cleric bars.
All above has no barrings on how the cleric is specced or played.
TLDR: HG is visible in 90% of the Tiamats I went. Those that are still following the clueless shouting? Ask them to look at the floor and see that shining white with blue lining buff they are standing on.
I have thought about this thread a lot, and even scrapped two lengthy replies I'd written. I think this is a great discussion, but it's framed wrong. The thread should be: Why does every DC Daily except for Hallowed Ground totally suck?
It used to be divine that Astral Shield was the absolutely essential encounter power. It was the reason DC's got groups. Every DC had to use it all the time. They outright removed that version of Astral Shield from the game and replaced the healing it provided by improving the other powers. It's not that Astral Shield was "too good", it's that everything else sucked. The fix was to improve the powers overall, and force people into the new paradigm, otherwise clueless people will still insist on the blue "healing circle". The same kind of treatment needs to be given to the DC Daily powers, because in almost every situation, Hallowed Ground is the only one that makes sense.
Which is a little silly when you consider we have things like Holy Fervor and Prophecy of Doom. We have great ways to fill our AP up quickly, and then the only good use for it is a 15 second buff circle that locks our AP at zero for the duration. Wow.
The lack of AP gain is strangely punitive towards non-DPS Clerics in PvE, for whom using that Daily is almost the only useful group contribution they can make outside of gear. Most of these DCs do only about 1.5- 2.5 million in damage in Tiamat, and that's less than the average GF.
I've been thinking a lot about this thread, and since Ursuilyn's almost done with her Linu's, I went a bit off the reservation and went searching for the time entries that were usually a fail. Well... it was educational.
In these instances, there were generally many different things that were going wrong. And ALMOST EVERYONE in those instances were doing things wrong, when you started looking at how people were geared, what they were using as rotations, and how they functioned (or did not) as part of a team.
(And yes, at 17k Ursuilyn can out DPS another 22k CW in BI. A TR in 15k Swash with VT weapons can do more than 2x the damage of a 21k TR in Draconic Templar and purple Artifact weapons. Many interesting stories.)
1. Clerics between 10k-12k with gear problems. When you talk about the "10k" crowd, the correct visualization isn't someone with low enchants. It's 9 times out of 10 someone with no gear set at all. Not even 2/2. Blue weapons they leveled in. The Catalogue Artifact is stunningly prevalent. 75% are not in a Guild. They do less than 1 million in damage if that, and overwhelmingly run Astral Shield and Lance of Faith. Most have never been in a dungeon "because the Q won't pop" and expect to be carried. Some have picked up one or two pieces of DT gear and figure why not get this set. This is the group that mostly uses Hammer of Fate.
2. PvP Clerics. Most have very high gear scores, but are overloaded with HP and Tenacity. They do a lot less damage than they think. And they fight during the Cleric phase like it's a pvp node. They are the principle reason why there is so much screaming over Sunburst in ToT, as they seem to be unable to not use it just because it's off cooldown. Most of the growing problem with "GS elitism" comes from this group, as they will out-GS PvE counterparts and create a lot of pressure for others to gear inflate. As a whole, this GS pressure is why you see so many TRs and CWs outside of the PVE BIS. More than half of the runs I did last weekend, there were no CWs in High Vizer at all. Yet no BI or PvP geared CW came within 5 million of the highest DPS CW in High Vizer I saw all weekend (the only 2 round fight I saw in 3 days).
3. AH Shopper I-Read-A-Build Clerics. Most of these people are well meaning and open to advice. There is the most hope with this group, but Tiamat isn't a good place to try to work with any of them. Unless it's a failed instance, which did give me the chance to explain better rotations, and how to work with other classes in crowd control. Most will lack a deep understanding of the class. The biggest problem with this group is the over reliance on Chains. This group uses Hallowed Ground a lot but they don't have DC Sigils so they have very few of them. It is this group the AP nerf hurts the most.
4. Foreign Language DCs. Predominately French. (Not knocking the French.) I don't understand how a geographical group can stick out so much for one thing. Not using Divine Encounters at all. And in ACT you can count the number of times a DC hits Fully Empowered. And you can watch them. So many DCs in French Guilds never use divine encounters. I have no idea what to make of that. Also, a lot of foreign language Clerics cast Astral Shield on the NPC Clerics and try to heal them with Healing Word. I don't know if I'm supposed to make a thread about possible language localization inaccuracies in the bug section or what. And we have no way of explaining this to them. I know they look at zone and look at the tells they get, but it's obvious we have no language in common other than "no English."
It's a Gordian Knot, when an instance in Tiamat fails. But Hallowed Ground is still not a sword that can cut through what is happening in a bad instance. I've been here since beta. I remember hitting my first Epic Pirate King with 10 GS points over level and a white dog companion. You really had to work on your builds and know every little advantage. And now I think that people rely too much on their Rank 10s, and we are greatly diminished as a community by that. And finger pointing is a lot easier than detailed analysis.
The lack of AP gain is strangely punitive towards non-DPS Clerics in PvE, for whom using that Daily is almost the only useful group contribution they can make outside of gear. Most of these DCs do only about 1.5- 2.5 million in damage in Tiamat, and that's less than the average GF.
I can only say, 99.99% of pvp clerics have alternate gear for pve stuff in their bag. If they dont have at least a High Prophet set for pve, they are not good clerics. At least i can say, all pvp DC i know have alternate set(s), including me. Lastly, if they dont use Divine Glow in pve, they are new to clerics, nothing related to pvp clerics.
If they dont have at least a High Prophet set for pve, they are not good clerics.
Wow.
I do not, nor am I at all interested in the High Profit gear. So I'm a "bad Cleric" then. In my experience and preference High profit is inferior to the full original Draconic gear 4-Piece bonus as a group-support/healer.
Simply: wow.
Jazzfong: please feel free to kick me out of any pugs we end-up in together. But do know it will be your loss, not mine.
You are among the people not playing a class proclaiming to know better than that class what makes that class a good class or not. OR, you ARE playing that class with a closed mind and deciding for yourself that your way of playing the class is superior than any other way and because of that you are good at it and others are not.
At least this is what your comment portends your attitude to be. Though I'm sure you simply misspoke.
I do not, nor am I at all interested in the High profit gear. So I'm a "bad Cleric" then. In my experience and preference High profit is inferior to the full original Draconic gear 4-Piece bonus as a group-support/healer.
I don't understand this attitude. Why are you not interested at all in the best DC PVE set for group play?
I understand that it only has T1-level stats, I understand that it is not ideal for every situation. But come on. Its 4pc bonus is the best in the game. A competent DC ought to at least understand how powerful it is and use it in appropriate situations, even if not using it in every situation.
I do not, nor am I at all interested in the High Profit gear. So I'm a "bad Cleric" then. In my experience and preference High profit is inferior to the full original Draconic gear 4-Piece bonus as a group-support/healer.
Simply: wow.
It's true. Most of your comments have demonstrated that you are not utilizing DC's gear and powers (no HG, no HP set) to fulfill that role appropriately. Yeah, you claim that your DC has a certain goal/role/whatever-you-call-it and then you follow up with examples of what you do to achieve that, which indicate to me and others that what you are doing is not aligned with aforementioned goal/role/whatevs. I'm not talking FotM or BiS here - I'm talking basics.
Sure, you'll get through the current PvE content (so that's not "bad"), but it's definitely not "good." It just works well enough.
Good way to improve is to parse ACT logs with a few friends while using different powers/feats/gear.
I'll give you that Draconic is not too bad if all you ever cast is BoH/HW/AS and never use at-wills.
Co-Founder of -Valor-
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
A TR in 15k Swash with VT weapons can do more than 2x the damage of a 21k TR in Draconic Templar and purple Artifact weapons.
I isolated this sentence because I wanted to defend the use of the Draconic set on a group-oriented TR, and then saw it was the Draconic Templar set you were calling out as a poor choice. Oh. Alrighty then.
<snip>
Jazzfong: please feel free to kick me out of any pugs we end-up in together. But do know it will be your loss, not mine.
1. You are among the people not playing a class proclaiming to know better than that class what makes that class a good class or not. OR, 2.you ARE playing that class with a closed mind and deciding for yourself that your way of playing the class is superior than any other way and because of that you are good at it and others are not.
At least this is what your comment portends your attitude to be. Though I'm sure you simply misspoke.
<snip>
I cant kick you if we party together, 90%+ of my gaming time is spended on pvp, while the rest 10% is doing dailies. You should know pvp doesnt allow kicking if you play in legit way.
Your statement 1: Judging from your join date, we know both of us played since beta. Since that time i picked a cleric and main this class till now. I am not only playing this class for a long time but also own in a total of 7 DCs, each with different build, different roll, different race and different paragon/feat. Yes I am playing this class and had done nearly all pve contents that i should do in year 2013. Yes, I do play DC.
Statement 2: Honestly, I dont like grinding dungeons and farming pve content. I join the pvp community in Mod 1 and abandon all pve contents I encounter. Thus, I wont say anything about pve, except giving common infos in forum. This High Prophet set is recommended by my fren Kaelac, the top tier god of pve clerics and also a real mathematician in reality. He had done tons of testing and ACT parsed log to prove High Prophet set is the best set for team play and is one of the most OP set if not the most OP one out of all gearset in pve. I think all clerics know this as well, they did use High Prophet and agree it is the best pve set, dont you too??
This High Prophet set is recommended by my fren Kaelac, the top tier god of pve clerics and also a real mathematician in reality.
I know who Kaelac is and I respect him. I even respect your views on what you believe with regard to what is best and not best. But that does not mean everyone else pays homage to Kaelac and neither does it give you 'greater-than-thou' right to bash other play-styles. That's all I'm saying. Furthermore, the 'other' response to my comment above doesn't warrant it's own response. LOL
Here's the thing: If you want to go with what someone else tells you on how to play your game then more power to you. As long as it's fun for you. But that also doesn't make your play style right, or wrong. I'm just requesting that you remember that. If you choose not to then that's fine, too.
Some of you need to read back what you're writing. As for me gearing up the way someone else says I must gear up so they can finish a delve 10 seconds faster? No thanks. I'm in this game for MY fun. As for my "support" abilities as a DC - I get a lot more compliments than rants. Hence, I'm fine with it the way I have it.
Elitists amaze me with their apparent "my way is the right way, your way is the stupid way" routine. But, hey, it is what it is.
I apologize if i seem rude, but i just want to object the point "PvP DCs are with high gs, HP and Tenacity but over self-confident and deal much lesser damage with their pvp gear in pve". I just want to say, we do carry another pve set such as High Prophet, and usually that is what people demand from us most. Blaming all pvp DC doesnt know how to pve or dont debuff properly is not fair for all pvp DC. IMO, other playstyle can be accepted but it is advisable to use the most efficient and most demanding one. If you have no problem clearing your objectives, you can stick to your build and be creative, or else, using a cheaper but better option which is also the main stream (HP set) is advisable. Thats all from me. *bow*
Edit: The line you originally quoted means like this: Those pvp clerics who insist to use tanky gear with low offensive stats in pve without understanding their team's need + dont even debuffing is not a good/responsible cleric.
Didnt write it clear and sry if it cause misundertanding.
Not sure where you're getting the "bash" part.
Not sure where you're getting "greater-than-thou" part.
Not sure where you're getting "telling me how to play" part.
Are you trying to play some "underdog of the DCs sticking it to the FotM man" role or something?
I isolated this sentence because I wanted to defend the use of the Draconic set on a group-oriented TR, and then saw it was the Draconic Templar set you were calling out as a poor choice. Oh. Alrighty then.
The point was to show the problem inflated GS is when you are trying to accurately predict DPS output. Looking at their gear alone, far too many people would pick the 21k TR over the 15k TR, and in fact there's a great deal of pressure for people under 16k GS to not go into Tiamat at all.
But all the gear in the world, an Artifact Weapon, and 3,000 more in Power ... and a 15k TR did more than 2x his damage. The 21k TR was using Sly Flourish and the 15k was using Duelist Flurry. The 21k TR was not by any means a bad player, and found no quarrel with the result. The gear did not decide the outcome, it was the at-will choice.
I apologize if i seem rude, but i just want to object the point "PvP DCs are with high gs, HP and Tenacity but over self-confident and deal much lesser damage with their pvp gear in pve"....... snip .......
jazzfong, I don't think you understood me, in the end.
I'm not talking about a sample of PVP DCs in winning instances, but a predominant trend of PVP DCs in failed instances. And PVP DCs are not alone in this trend of wearing in their PVP gear.
When asked why, of those who replied, they would say that their damage is better rather than they wanted more survivability. Some even thought they were making significant DPS contributions v. other people in the instance. But their real damage totals were usually below the median for the instance, and the instance failed the DPS check for the dragon head phase.
And this is only 1 trend of 4 trends that I noticed when I looked over my notes.
To be clear, any one DC in their PVP gear is not the problem. It is when the population of an instance becomes so crowded with them that there are no DCs in High Prophet. The CWs in failing instances will have the same problem. Too much BI and 2/2 Power sets and no one in High Vizer at all.
And in the end, besides the contribution to gear inflation that BI is having in Tiamat (or wearing DT gear), what I said was the real problem was the higher rate of knockback with Sunburst.
Comments
You've picked out a few random encounters and the math certainly is good in showing how buffs do and don't stack. That doesn't alter the fact that some forms of damage will still outclass others in a single target DPS. Specifically, I am talking about how Duelist Flurry did 25% of the Head's HP while Lashing Blade did only 4% in an instance where you couldn't get better stacked debuffs/buffs.
Duelist Flurry: 4%
Duelist Flurry Hit: 5%
Duelist Flurry Bleed: 16%
THEN they did 11% more with Shadow of Demise.
TOTAL: 31%
If you break it down to what 3 Executioner TRs with Duelist Flurry did, that's 31% of the damage on the heads by themselves. And that's before you factor in a single one of their Encounter Powers. It doesn't matter how big you make your orange numbers for Icy Rays with buffs/debuffs.
You can replicate some of the same effect by substituting those TRs with SS Thaumaturge CWs because of Storm Spell-Assailant, although you won't have near enough problems with the DOT tick in the first round. You can't substitute in GWF or GF. Understanding that doesn't mean overstacking an instance with TRs or barring other classes, it just means debuffs/buffs won't counter the complete absence of a small set of skills and feats. That's useful to know if you are say, a Guild trying to timer in a group.
Why do you think we have to stop damaging the heads on the first round at 4 or 5 bars of health to make sure the final HP total of the head doesn't drop below 2 bars (10%)? It's the DOTs and Bleed damage that is still ticking. I've seen one instance where the tick was high enough to clear 16% of the head's HP and kill it.
I have switched out from my Righteous DC to my SS Thau CW, and this is from a round last night where a DC was using Hallowed Ground, plus we had all the usual other debuffs/buffs. Although Urs has a GPF instead of a PV. Remedy's last instance cleared with 32 seconds left in the 3rd round, this one with only 7 seconds in the last round. So these are the 7 Ice Knives done to the Black Tiamat Head from 5 CWs (4%), a pie-chart of what killed the head, and my own DPS break down.
So the Ice Knives, showing base and actual damage for each:
Contrast to the BTH ex I gave earlier, where 31% was done by 3 Executioner TRs. This is 5 CWs, only 4 using Storm Spell (10%), and I was the only Thaumaturge procing Assailant (3%). We 5 reached 31% of the BTH's damage, but that includes our encounter powers. 3 TRs with full debuffs/buffs v. 5 CWs with full debuffs/buffs:
Interestingly enough, we had one Executioner TR using Duelist Flurry v. one non-Executioner using Sly Flourish. The Duelist Flurry TR did 15% of the damage between DF and Shadow of Demise. The other TR did only 2% with Sly Flourish. Overall, that's easily 50% of the damage by only seven people. Icy Rays? <1%.
This is Urs' % breakdown of damage over the whole run, to show how much of an effect Assailant has.
So... not all damage is created equal.
When Tiamat started (seems like forever), and those first 2-3 days were so awful, I sat down and thought some things over. I had been running Urs, and I switched to Remedy. At first I used Hallowed Ground, and then I switched to using Guardian of Faith in those first 3 seconds when the zerg hits the dragon head. Spike healing the squishies when they were most likely to be in danger dramatically reduced the number of fails I was having. If you start loosing TRs and the like who have to run back and don't do any DPS, there will be a point at which no debuff/buff will compensate.
I have 180 Wins in 202 Runs. 89% success rating.
(Tiamat doesn't mix well with State of the Union Drinking Parties. So I'm under 90% now.)
If you are < 50% health, your pots are on cooldown, you've lost soul-forged and can do zero DPS, do you want 15% mitigation or a 20k heal?
That's Guardian of Faith btw. Anointed Champions don't have Hammer.
Not that I've found a DC using Hammer in the last week of ACT runs.
True, you do no damage when you are dead, but going back to the first post, its Hallowed Ground vs. Hammers, btw. Hallowed Ground also provides a defense buff, Hammers do not. No amount of stats and pie graphs can hide the fact that using Hammers over HG is pathetic. Overlapping HG is pointless, but I prefer to see that over no HG used at all. And yes, you can defeat Tiamat with mega rogues and no clerics, but I have had enough encounters with my alt (which is not a cleric) to see incredibly bad play from some clerics, play that really meant the difference between success and failure. They should be barked at, whether they did it out of stubborness or stupidity, they just wasted 20 minutes of others peoples time.
Im not saying every DC has to do it, but when you notice NO dc is doing it, and your on your DC, you might as well be the one.
Secondly, my arguments mostly stem from LOWER dps groups, IN NEED of dps boosting and HG provides that and a good dc can do 3 HGs in each phase.
If your team is going to 2 phase it no matter what, then heck, slot whatever you want, use bastion for all I care.
Thirdly, your basically saying cws/trs need your guardian to stay upright.. I find that a little over-zealous of a statement.
The original argument is why people dont use HG and some presented the fact that HG now blocks DC A/P gain (discounting of course your DC sigal and AP cloak ) which most of us chimed in with, shouldn't be discounted. Every DC can do at least 2 hgs, and probably 3 on every phase. Thats more benefit then 4-5 hammer of fates.
There is no doubt in my mind that you can do this with multiple approaches, but to discount HG is also a little unreasonable.
As for AP generation with artifacts and other gear: fine, give your pet DC that artifact or gear. To expect anyone else to be geared-up the way you want them to be is ludicrous at best. I'm intrigued at many, if not most of the comments in this thread. It almost feels like the torches and pitchforks are out in force against a class if that class isn't spec'd they way all the other classes want them to be.
This portion of my comment is directed at the thread commentary in general, not to any particular person:
//rant-on
If you're not playing a DC it's must be pretty easy to tell a DC to do what you want them to do, isn't it? Solution: If you want another class to play a certain way then perhaps you should play that class. This is just an observation. I don;t mean create an alt and dabble, but really play that class. For real.
Obviously there are a lot of [inexperienced] players in all classes, regardless if it's their player skill, gear score, encounter power choices and all the rest. However there also are a lot of really good players who play differently from what you expect them to play. I've been playing DC from alpha/beta through to now. I consider myself pretty darned good at it. Yet I still actively choose not to slot HG. But I also don't use Hammer. There are other dailies I prefer. If you don't like how I play my class then you have a personal issue.
Just because I'm not using HG doesn't mean I'm not contributing to the team. I don;t think anyone has any business telling the DC (or any other class they aren't actively playing) how to play his class. Everyone has their own play style and frankly, though Kaelec's DC guide is a really good one, it ain't all-that. I get the impression some of the 'other classes' are looking at that guide and then judging whether a DC is a good player or not based on what they're seeing.
Not everyone is a min-maxer and neither should min-maxers expect everyone to be. As a DC Main these two years (yes, it's two years now) I've learned to (more or less) ignore what other classes say I should do. I do what I do, haven't gotten any legitimate complaints recently (beotching that I'm not using HG or some other stupid complaint isn't legitimate in my book).
My purview on complaints like this (not the OP - he was just asking a question, but rather to a lot of the replies): play your own class to the best of your ability and let me play mine the way I see fit. Anything else is just selfish elitism.
//rant-off
Seriously: people shouldn't take this game so seriously. It's a *game*. You'd do well to focus on your character rather than worry about others. Win or lose your own contribution to the effort affects it just as much as the others and it sure seems easy to blame a failure on someone else. Blaming a failed party run on another character class is just a cheap shot when you should be blaming the specific player themselves, if in fact that's where the problem lay.
What I'm seeing here is a sweeping accusation against an entire class, rather than actual blame where it deserves to go.
There, I feel better to get that load off. I am open to flame-throwing now. LOL
I had one DC respec in the middle of a dungeon because he/she had no idea what he/she was doing. I got another GWF to respec before a dungeon 'cause he just put points into anything that sounded "cool." Their actions and their goals were not aligned.
I am all for weird builds/comps/playstyles - as long as they are effective (not min/max - effective).
Go hard or go home.
That's what teamwork is for.
If you can't/won't communicate with the team - go play single-player.
Taking it too seriously? Yes and no. Not serious enough to rage, but serious enough to care and perform well.
so you can decide to buff ur mates or not
if i go tiamat, beeing a little bit small minded and not team competent, i take my drake clothes (more stats for me), spam bastion of health big numbers-but my mates might be onehittet-not my problem, use chains or daunting light and hope for my teammates to buff my damage encounters doing the biggest numbers
not spending any mitigation or buff to others, hoping to be under the first three or at least behind the TR in my personal damage meter
in the end i lose, especially when there are similiar supects like mine on the run
no graphic will give answer in this case, btw i can´t read them without a loupe, but if u got eyes and ears u can see the heads melting after starting buffing/debuffing and my mediocre encounter i use spit big numbers never seen- it really is a very simple calculation
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
If you are a buff/debuff/dps speced DC in a weak group, they all die like flies, you could win, if you would heal, but you refuse to heal, bc 'it is not your style' you are a bad player for group content.
If you are a heal speced DC in a weak group, they dont have enough dps, you could win, if you would buff/debuff, but you refuse to buff/debuff, bc 'it is not your style' you are a bad player for group content.
The freedom for individuality is very high in this game, bc there is no real endcontent. You can solo/duo allmost everything atm. I still think, that a decent goup with SW, DC, GF, CW and another high dps class can kill Tiamats heads in 3 rounds, if the rest is semi competent and helps out at the cleric phase.
BUT in real end content there is no room for individuality. It would be, that it is doable with the perfect combination of classes, gear and spec. If ppl want challenging endcontent, they will either have to build it for a specific setup or it will be a callenge for 90% and a faceroll for 10% with basic knowlege of group mechanics and a group/setup using this to their advantage.
Highlight in the quote is mine. And it makes this point: Leveling content is all about individuality. And now this individuality goes until level 70. From start to end game co-op (read: Party or Group) play is only 10% of the entire experience and that's only if the player chooses to do every dungeon and skirmish (PvP doesn't count in this argument).
Now consider this from the perspective of a NEW PLAYER or someone's ALT who is not familiar with the DC and it's workings...
The OP Question is "Why no Hallowed Ground?" - The answer is simple: it is one of two choices of your very first Daily Power level two. In solo play it's already difficult enough to earn action points, HG does not generate any. So most DCs will go with Flame Strike because HG 1) mostly benefits a group, but we are deep into solo play right now and 2) does not generate, nay: delays Action Point generation for the duration. This player cannot even do any co-op play except for Blacklake Skirmish. That's it. They are focussed on getting the encounters and dailies to help them survive the leveling process that early in the game.
So the DC who is 90% in solo mode is going to slot the encounters and dailies that benefit her the most during the solo excursions. Now this DC *might* throw one point into HG just so it can be slotted during a skirmish or DD. ONE. POINT. And only if they feel like "throwing away" a power point. So even if that DC has HG - it's a weak one.
So when does the DC actually invest into HG? Likely not until they actually do reach end-game level cap, and then only when they start doing a lot more instanced co-op play, and then only when they have the points to do it (overflow XP, anyone?). And the way people are kicked from Delves so often... well, you can figure it out.
I said all that to say this: The Tiamat "raid" is a once-off mass effort. If a DC hasn't slotted their HG, or only minimally invested in it up to this point it's unlikely that they'll do so just for the Tiamat "raid", and neither should they be expected to. For a DC who already does a lot of co-op play: well, they're experienced enough to know to invest in HG and go with that. In the end: whining and crying, suggesting and recommending what some other class other than the one you're playing is really a big waste of breath.
I am not debunking anyone else's argument for or against this idea, I am simply saying it's all academic at best because people are gonna play the way they're gonna play. How it affects you is your issue, not theirs. And this is true no matter what your class is and what the other person's class is.
If you really want new DC players to seriously consider investing then slotting Hallowed Ground: Hallowed Ground Daily needs to not even be available until level 40-something because by then the new DC player will understand why they would want it.
DCs who have been around awhile or Veteran MMOers know what to do but there are a lot of inexperienced players in every class who get to queue for the fight just like anyone else who has a 10k gs.
just went tiamat- no one buffed /debuffed and.....mega fail
half the raid was onehittet at first dragon two times, yes even the chars >30k HP, so don´t tell anything about the need of buffing or not, even if u are a "veteran" lol
Granted, "No Astral Seals" shout are still visible till today.
Hallowed Ground is often seen, and more often than not overlapped.
The fails at recent week are all credited to:
- Low DPS
Let's face this, you will notice as soon as hitting on the black head. Don't even need to see if the raid can reach Red in first head phase
- Clueless Chickens
Not sure why most people like going left and get green gem. I've experienced more than a handful over past week this happening with people waiting at Severin and then realised no one had hit blue/white.
- Cleric Phase Fails
I think this is the above Clueless Chickens upgrade.
One of the clerics left alone or undermanned while another hitting the full bar in no time at all.
Seriously not sure why it's so difficult to spread yourselves according to the gem you took (left-ish or right-ish).
Easiest is to hang around mid cleric and spread after monitoring the first 30secs to a minute of the cleric bars.
All above has no barrings on how the cleric is specced or played.
TLDR: HG is visible in 90% of the Tiamats I went. Those that are still following the clueless shouting? Ask them to look at the floor and see that shining white with blue lining buff they are standing on.
It used to be divine that Astral Shield was the absolutely essential encounter power. It was the reason DC's got groups. Every DC had to use it all the time. They outright removed that version of Astral Shield from the game and replaced the healing it provided by improving the other powers. It's not that Astral Shield was "too good", it's that everything else sucked. The fix was to improve the powers overall, and force people into the new paradigm, otherwise clueless people will still insist on the blue "healing circle". The same kind of treatment needs to be given to the DC Daily powers, because in almost every situation, Hallowed Ground is the only one that makes sense.
Which is a little silly when you consider we have things like Holy Fervor and Prophecy of Doom. We have great ways to fill our AP up quickly, and then the only good use for it is a 15 second buff circle that locks our AP at zero for the duration. Wow.
I've been thinking a lot about this thread, and since Ursuilyn's almost done with her Linu's, I went a bit off the reservation and went searching for the time entries that were usually a fail. Well... it was educational.
In these instances, there were generally many different things that were going wrong. And ALMOST EVERYONE in those instances were doing things wrong, when you started looking at how people were geared, what they were using as rotations, and how they functioned (or did not) as part of a team.
(And yes, at 17k Ursuilyn can out DPS another 22k CW in BI. A TR in 15k Swash with VT weapons can do more than 2x the damage of a 21k TR in Draconic Templar and purple Artifact weapons. Many interesting stories.)
1. Clerics between 10k-12k with gear problems. When you talk about the "10k" crowd, the correct visualization isn't someone with low enchants. It's 9 times out of 10 someone with no gear set at all. Not even 2/2. Blue weapons they leveled in. The Catalogue Artifact is stunningly prevalent. 75% are not in a Guild. They do less than 1 million in damage if that, and overwhelmingly run Astral Shield and Lance of Faith. Most have never been in a dungeon "because the Q won't pop" and expect to be carried. Some have picked up one or two pieces of DT gear and figure why not get this set. This is the group that mostly uses Hammer of Fate.
2. PvP Clerics. Most have very high gear scores, but are overloaded with HP and Tenacity. They do a lot less damage than they think. And they fight during the Cleric phase like it's a pvp node. They are the principle reason why there is so much screaming over Sunburst in ToT, as they seem to be unable to not use it just because it's off cooldown. Most of the growing problem with "GS elitism" comes from this group, as they will out-GS PvE counterparts and create a lot of pressure for others to gear inflate. As a whole, this GS pressure is why you see so many TRs and CWs outside of the PVE BIS. More than half of the runs I did last weekend, there were no CWs in High Vizer at all. Yet no BI or PvP geared CW came within 5 million of the highest DPS CW in High Vizer I saw all weekend (the only 2 round fight I saw in 3 days).
3. AH Shopper I-Read-A-Build Clerics. Most of these people are well meaning and open to advice. There is the most hope with this group, but Tiamat isn't a good place to try to work with any of them. Unless it's a failed instance, which did give me the chance to explain better rotations, and how to work with other classes in crowd control. Most will lack a deep understanding of the class. The biggest problem with this group is the over reliance on Chains. This group uses Hallowed Ground a lot but they don't have DC Sigils so they have very few of them. It is this group the AP nerf hurts the most.
4. Foreign Language DCs. Predominately French. (Not knocking the French.) I don't understand how a geographical group can stick out so much for one thing. Not using Divine Encounters at all. And in ACT you can count the number of times a DC hits Fully Empowered. And you can watch them. So many DCs in French Guilds never use divine encounters. I have no idea what to make of that. Also, a lot of foreign language Clerics cast Astral Shield on the NPC Clerics and try to heal them with Healing Word. I don't know if I'm supposed to make a thread about possible language localization inaccuracies in the bug section or what. And we have no way of explaining this to them. I know they look at zone and look at the tells they get, but it's obvious we have no language in common other than "no English."
It's a Gordian Knot, when an instance in Tiamat fails. But Hallowed Ground is still not a sword that can cut through what is happening in a bad instance. I've been here since beta. I remember hitting my first Epic Pirate King with 10 GS points over level and a white dog companion. You really had to work on your builds and know every little advantage. And now I think that people rely too much on their Rank 10s, and we are greatly diminished as a community by that. And finger pointing is a lot easier than detailed analysis.
Thank you.
Wall-o-text long, but thank you.
Three thumbs up for this comment.
Wow.
I do not, nor am I at all interested in the High Profit gear. So I'm a "bad Cleric" then. In my experience and preference High profit is inferior to the full original Draconic gear 4-Piece bonus as a group-support/healer.
Simply: wow.
Jazzfong: please feel free to kick me out of any pugs we end-up in together. But do know it will be your loss, not mine.
You are among the people not playing a class proclaiming to know better than that class what makes that class a good class or not. OR, you ARE playing that class with a closed mind and deciding for yourself that your way of playing the class is superior than any other way and because of that you are good at it and others are not.
At least this is what your comment portends your attitude to be. Though I'm sure you simply misspoke.
Wow.
I don't understand this attitude. Why are you not interested at all in the best DC PVE set for group play?
I understand that it only has T1-level stats, I understand that it is not ideal for every situation. But come on. Its 4pc bonus is the best in the game. A competent DC ought to at least understand how powerful it is and use it in appropriate situations, even if not using it in every situation.
It's true. Most of your comments have demonstrated that you are not utilizing DC's gear and powers (no HG, no HP set) to fulfill that role appropriately. Yeah, you claim that your DC has a certain goal/role/whatever-you-call-it and then you follow up with examples of what you do to achieve that, which indicate to me and others that what you are doing is not aligned with aforementioned goal/role/whatevs. I'm not talking FotM or BiS here - I'm talking basics.
Sure, you'll get through the current PvE content (so that's not "bad"), but it's definitely not "good." It just works well enough.
Good way to improve is to parse ACT logs with a few friends while using different powers/feats/gear.
I'll give you that Draconic is not too bad if all you ever cast is BoH/HW/AS and never use at-wills.
I isolated this sentence because I wanted to defend the use of the Draconic set on a group-oriented TR, and then saw it was the Draconic Templar set you were calling out as a poor choice. Oh. Alrighty then.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I cant kick you if we party together, 90%+ of my gaming time is spended on pvp, while the rest 10% is doing dailies. You should know pvp doesnt allow kicking if you play in legit way.
Your statement 1: Judging from your join date, we know both of us played since beta. Since that time i picked a cleric and main this class till now. I am not only playing this class for a long time but also own in a total of 7 DCs, each with different build, different roll, different race and different paragon/feat. Yes I am playing this class and had done nearly all pve contents that i should do in year 2013. Yes, I do play DC.
Statement 2: Honestly, I dont like grinding dungeons and farming pve content. I join the pvp community in Mod 1 and abandon all pve contents I encounter. Thus, I wont say anything about pve, except giving common infos in forum. This High Prophet set is recommended by my fren Kaelac, the top tier god of pve clerics and also a real mathematician in reality. He had done tons of testing and ACT parsed log to prove High Prophet set is the best set for team play and is one of the most OP set if not the most OP one out of all gearset in pve. I think all clerics know this as well, they did use High Prophet and agree it is the best pve set, dont you too??
I know who Kaelac is and I respect him. I even respect your views on what you believe with regard to what is best and not best. But that does not mean everyone else pays homage to Kaelac and neither does it give you 'greater-than-thou' right to bash other play-styles. That's all I'm saying. Furthermore, the 'other' response to my comment above doesn't warrant it's own response. LOL
Here's the thing: If you want to go with what someone else tells you on how to play your game then more power to you. As long as it's fun for you. But that also doesn't make your play style right, or wrong. I'm just requesting that you remember that. If you choose not to then that's fine, too.
Some of you need to read back what you're writing. As for me gearing up the way someone else says I must gear up so they can finish a delve 10 seconds faster? No thanks. I'm in this game for MY fun. As for my "support" abilities as a DC - I get a lot more compliments than rants. Hence, I'm fine with it the way I have it.
Elitists amaze me with their apparent "my way is the right way, your way is the stupid way" routine. But, hey, it is what it is.
Edit: The line you originally quoted means like this: Those pvp clerics who insist to use tanky gear with low offensive stats in pve without understanding their team's need + dont even debuffing is not a good/responsible cleric.
Didnt write it clear and sry if it cause misundertanding.
Not sure where you're getting "greater-than-thou" part.
Not sure where you're getting "telling me how to play" part.
Are you trying to play some "underdog of the DCs sticking it to the FotM man" role or something?
The point was to show the problem inflated GS is when you are trying to accurately predict DPS output. Looking at their gear alone, far too many people would pick the 21k TR over the 15k TR, and in fact there's a great deal of pressure for people under 16k GS to not go into Tiamat at all.
But all the gear in the world, an Artifact Weapon, and 3,000 more in Power ... and a 15k TR did more than 2x his damage. The 21k TR was using Sly Flourish and the 15k was using Duelist Flurry. The 21k TR was not by any means a bad player, and found no quarrel with the result. The gear did not decide the outcome, it was the at-will choice.
jazzfong, I don't think you understood me, in the end.
I'm not talking about a sample of PVP DCs in winning instances, but a predominant trend of PVP DCs in failed instances. And PVP DCs are not alone in this trend of wearing in their PVP gear.
When asked why, of those who replied, they would say that their damage is better rather than they wanted more survivability. Some even thought they were making significant DPS contributions v. other people in the instance. But their real damage totals were usually below the median for the instance, and the instance failed the DPS check for the dragon head phase.
And this is only 1 trend of 4 trends that I noticed when I looked over my notes.
To be clear, any one DC in their PVP gear is not the problem. It is when the population of an instance becomes so crowded with them that there are no DCs in High Prophet. The CWs in failing instances will have the same problem. Too much BI and 2/2 Power sets and no one in High Vizer at all.
And in the end, besides the contribution to gear inflation that BI is having in Tiamat (or wearing DT gear), what I said was the real problem was the higher rate of knockback with Sunburst.