Ok to thos of you that think TR are not over powered.I've got a 9k MI TR.Before the changes to the class I could not be a prema stealth build.Now with the changes I can easy be one.I did the reset and found that with 1st/cheeps set of the pvp gear I can stay in stealth with no prob. I could stay in stealth buy just using Gloaming Cut,Shadow Strike, and the feat that fulls my stealth meter ever 15 sec. if i use a encounter power. So that lets any one be a prema stealth and you don't need to give up dmg to be a prema.
So I went in to pug match to see how this new build would do.I used Shadow Strike,Gloaming Cut,Lashing Blade,Deft Strike, and Cloud of Steel.I found that with my big bad 9k GS I could hold my own fight 16k GS ppl and would only die like 1-2 times a match with 20 kills.I went 1 on 1 with a 18k gwf and he couldn't touch me.All I had to do was Lashing blades from stealth roll,go back into stealth,Use Deft Strike to slow/daze,roll use Shadow Strike and repeat.It was that easy.So maybe he wasn't that good but come on a 9k fighting a 18k shouldn't be able to last long.Let along get him low on HP/kill him.That's just way overed powered.
Before the changes to the class I loved playing my TR.I was a non-perma build and had to work at killing/staying alive.It was really fun,but now it's like I don't even need to try to in a match now.So if a 9k GS TR can do that,then the 18-20k GS TR must be falling a sleep in matchs (and still be getting like 40 kills).One of the thing that made me like the TR was that they was nurfted so badly that most ppl didn't want to play them or thought they was easy pray (if they wasn't a prema).Now ever unskilled person is rolling a TR and winning with it.
Now I think it's funny how the changes was going to stop prema,but ended up make it was easier to be one.Like someone said in this thread.Not only did they make it easier to be a prema but that added to much dmg and added a CC to them.Making them way over powered.If you think I'm trolling then go try it for your self and you'll see.
You just exposed yourself nicely. Ignoring defense? I have zero problem with dazes affected by defensive mechanisms. As long as all attacks across all classes respect D Mechs. SE ? Agreed, it needs a fix. Stealth? Non-issue for Scoundrels . Knife's Edge? Nothing wrong with the feat itself. Anything else? You and martial make quite the pair . I'll even go one further for you. Reduce 100% crit from stealth to 50%. OMG I SO want OP TRs. Hilarious.
The easiest thing to do and will balance TRs is just change all piercing damage to regular damage. (This includes SE/SoD and Shadowy Opp)
Stealth bonus should be changed to increase your crit chance by 50% OF your crit. So if you have 40% crit, in stealth you would have 60% crit in stealth.
This forces you to actually stack crit for more benefits. The only other issue I see is Lashingblade still hits far too hard, so I would chance the stealth bonus from "50% more crit severity" to something like a "30% reduced CD" when used in stealth.
That reduces the 1 shot LB + wait for SoD proc for insta kill.
SE respecting DR/Tenacity will be enough of a nerf for that skill, it will be balanced IMO.
I think that would balance everything out (with the exception of daze) which would also need to respect CC resist/Tenacity.
The easiest thing to do and will balance TRs is just change all piercing damage to regular damage. (This includes SE/SoD and Shadowy Opp)
Stealth bonus should be changed to increase your crit chance by 50% OF your crit. So if you have 40% crit, in stealth you would have 60% crit in stealth.
This forces you to actually stack crit for more benefits. The only other issue I see is Lashingblade still hits far too hard, so I would chance the stealth bonus from "50% more crit severity" to something like a "30% reduced CD" when used in stealth.
That reduces the 1 shot LB + wait for SoD proc for insta kill.
SE respecting DR/Tenacity will be enough of a nerf for that skill, it will be balanced IMO.
I think that would balance everything out (with the exception of daze) which would also need to respect CC resist/Tenacity.
Boom. Done. TR balanced.
You do realize that SE has 100% piercing damage? Now you're unknowingly suggesting to double the damage of SE. Even without piercing that would be 1HKO.
As I stated previously, if you had chosen to read it, there have been several people post here about beating a TR in PvP. Do a search and discover the truth. I don't make things up, just can't remember all the details of the 500+ posts I have read in the past, like normal human beings.
I never mentioned age, just maturity level. I know people in their 30s and older that are pretty immature when it comes to logical discussions. . .
Can TR be beaten? Sure. But can it be done consistently? **** no. You will never get 1:1 k:d ratio when matched against an equally geared TR. More like 1:10.
Can TR be beaten? Sure. But can it be done consistently? **** no. You will never get 1:1 k:d ratio when matched against an equally geared TR. More like 1:10.
Now that's the kind of response I like to see!
As you stated, I don't think you will achieve a 1:1 ratio against the current TR. It is still a bit OP, even after some nerfs during Mod 5. I am just against too many nerfs, which many people have suggested across multiple threads. Two or three more minor changes should balance things out in PvP a bit better.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
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grobb1Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 34
edited January 2015
Hmmm, interesting views on this subject from all people. From my experience in playing various builds of classes, ie i have a few toons of each class including TR, I think it's important to remember certain things and keep calm... sometimes I rage too and loose my cool and perspective.
TR is seperated from the others as in they have limited ae skills, or aoe for the wow players, and that means they will excel in single target damage. That is the balance I see here. Now at first I hated TRs- they can be invisible and hunt a person down very effectively. They do have downsides as well just as any other class.
For instance if you take a new player who just reached level 10 for the first time and enters pvp they will get smashed by other players for the simple reason that the other players are seasoned.
My point is that it takes different times for different people to click with the character that they play and a healthy sense of passion is needed to get good at anything. So don't give up and play with different skills.
Apart form the occasional 1 shot I receive, I don't really have any out of the ordinary problems with TR's that can be singled out only to TRs. The only reason I feel a need to say anything is that I hate to see TR get credit for being unstoppable or godly or what ever- they aren't the BEST class for pvp- they just have a tendency to be played well and easily by many players.
I am currently enjoying a 60 GF and 60 GWF and am happy with the performance I portray as a team player in capturing nodes or defending nodes againsts TR's or any other class. This is what team domination is about- who can control a better half of a map longer.
On one final note, and I really hate to say this only because I am a firm believer that skill is just as important as GS,... I believe subdividing PVP with brackets of GS will fix this problem of "constantly" being owned which I think the true rage comes from. For example if your GS is 12.5(common gearscore these days as a newb 60) then you will fit in a catagory of GS'ed team members and foes in the area of 10k-15k. Also this will fix the level 10 fiasco(i take part in too xD) where people create TR's with dragonbone weaps and level 10 enchants and then go pvp and seem god-like throughout the whole pre-60 levels- but this is done with every class not just TR.
I am sure a firm understanding of boons, builds and encounter powers will be needed to combat players who are proficient in this said knowledge, not the simple *lets nerf them till i can finally beat them* stategy.
The easiest thing to do and will balance TRs is just change all piercing damage to regular damage. (This includes SE/SoD and Shadowy Opp)
Stealth bonus should be changed to increase your crit chance by 50% OF your crit. So if you have 40% crit, in stealth you would have 60% crit in stealth.
This forces you to actually stack crit for more benefits. The only other issue I see is Lashingblade still hits far too hard, so I would chance the stealth bonus from "50% more crit severity" to something like a "30% reduced CD" when used in stealth.
That reduces the 1 shot LB + wait for SoD proc for insta kill.
SE respecting DR/Tenacity will be enough of a nerf for that skill, it will be balanced IMO.
I think that would balance everything out (with the exception of daze) which would also need to respect CC resist/Tenacity.
Boom. Done. TR balanced.
As a TR, I would not object to these you've mentioned, sir.
Another thing that might help the situation, Sirs, is using the least wanted/weakest PvP class and giving it a very specialized role in the match.
This is usually a good way to bring in a "natural predator" to a distinctly powerful class, while not making it "an even more OP class to be able to do so"... effectively, the weakest class in PvP -- ironically -- will be equipped with the best powers to neuter the strongest class in game. This often offers some amount of gratification to those using the weak class, as well as an important role, whilst offering a very strong counter to the strongest class... without disrupting the overall power balance too greatly.
For example, sirs, I'd recommend that the devs come up with a very specialized powers such as;
(a) a weak buff/debuff that (intentionally) lingers on visibly, despite the TR hit with it is in stealth
(b) a single-target, friendly buff that conceptually "increases your accuracy", thus countering the effects of deflect chance
(c) a power with a weaker-version effect of Courage Breaker, something that ignores CC immunity and deals a slow
...and they can maybe put one or two of such powers to the currently weakest SW build.
At that point the SW becomes "the only direct counter to certain TR tactics".. so while it is still weak and likely to be targeted and killed, its existence would greatly threaten the enemy's TR. I've always liked the idea of certain ironies in games, where the weakest and most ignored class/builds, actually have a great potential to neutralize the game's most powerful class.
It was sort of like this in City of Heroes and "Trick Arrow" powers... the weakest powers in PvE and generally considered useless, but surprisingly, it offered the most powerful, direct counter to the game's most OP class called Stalkers. That was an interesting irony I relished in that game, perhaps the same could happen here as well, sirs.
I've been playing a TR as my main since beta, even suffering through nearly a year of being the weakest class in the game. And I never complained about it.
This statement is hilariously wrong. There was 1 mod when the TR was not immensely strong and that was the previous one and even then the TR was still among the best back-capper behind the HR just because of how overpowered a good HR could be.
Of course. By another TR. This is where pvp is going btw. Nowadays when pvp-ing I can see more TRs in proportion than one year ago. One more year and we'll have the full-TR pvp that is already on the other servers in the world.
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Ok, listen up now pugs. No class in the game is gonna win a 1on1 vs a TR with equal skill/gear. SoD is broken, daze is too much in scoundrel + deftstrike (slow and more daze + big dmg) SaB has easymode stealth refill with dazing and 7 sec(ish) cd and hit like a truck cus 100% critchance means stacking tons of power + STR instead of Dex. Stop beeing so silly now guys
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grobb1Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 34
edited January 2015
why are people so stuck on 1vs1? we dont have 1vs1 in the game... if you mean team domination then all this 1vs1 QQing is null. I dont care about TRs- yes i am a pug and i play a gf or gwf happily in pvp. we have team pvp in neverwinter so if im not with my team i am always with at least 1 person who i adopt as my "buddy". Yes people nerd rage at me saying i am no good alone but as me and one other person is sending them back to their spawn point i am telling them they are no good alone either.
Well it do happen that in a 5on5 match u get to do some 1on1s, bad thing is the TR will come out winning most (or all) the time depend on skill/gear ofc. If u cant see that TRs and DPSdc for that matter needs to be adjusted a bit then u are blind. Tbh i think fixing some with the TRs and DCs and boost the SWs, we might have the most balanced pvp mod ever.
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grobb1Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 34
edited January 2015
TR's are not going to win 1vs1 every time and they dont win 1vs1 everytime. tr's cant kill the troll dc and i can hold a node on my GF untill i get back up just fine.
the only statement that is true is alot of people end up playing TR exceptionally well and the TR is often played easily.
I am noticing that alot of "leet" players are attempting to find the perfect hybrid role and i blame this on why people are getting owned. Also i think alot of people are still learning to stack attribute,encounters, boons even though they think they know what they are doing its actually another story.
I have multiple classes with different build. this includes TR, i have one with perma stealth and one pure dps face melt. I play my gf and gwf in pvp as a team member and i dont care about how TR's can kill someone 1vs1 "everytime". when you go into pvp it is a team situation, if you get caught alone and are handled then learn to not get caught alone so often.
If you are purposefully going out alone to see if you can finally prove your mettle and receive bragging rights but loose anyways then that is no ones fault but your own. Anyways you will always catch me on my GWF in pvp who is pure dps with no added constitution on character creation- i stack dps only and im fine playing as support only. Because of that my team wins most of the time- name is mimosa. TRs try to hunt me down and kill me but im hardly ever alone... as soon as i see one i sprint over and snare them and then sprint about 10 ft away immediately so my CW and SW can make short work of them. ITS SO FUNNY TO SEE EVERYTIME. Sometimes i am lucky enough to sprint back in for the kill shot and get my name on the screen.
You're right on one thing. It shouldn't only be about 1v1....except the TR is also the best at keeping 2 people busy for the longest time and even possibly beating both of them. TRs can go to long durations of stealth, shadow strike and ITC to keep 2 people occupied.
A CW can fight 1v1 most classes but they do not have stealth so they instantly die within seconds in a 2v1.
I just hope they have a 1v1 queing system with leader board so that they will know TR is not the king of 1v1 I have an HR trapper with high regen which I can also heal my allies like a DC and I have no problem if it comes to 1v1 with a TR same goes to my CW.
I just hope they have a 1v1 queing system with leader board so that they will know TR is not the king of 1v1 I have an HR trapper with high regen which I can also heal my allies like a DC and I have no problem if it comes to 1v1 with a TR same goes to my CW.
1 We are not talking about the healing dc whit pet and if you ment a normal endless spamming making team immortal dc I guess you lost all credibility you ever had and ever would have.
2 If you have no problem with Trs you are the sole champ of Hr in the game because even the absolut best have huge problems with Trs so are you saying that you are in a class for yourself.
You dont happend to play Tr do ya now run along and troll some other forum.
I am not a very good TR and I have a lot of problems with TR but I also have a lot of problems with other classes too. I likely have more fun than anyone else though so hah!
I just hope they have a 1v1 queing system with leader board so that they will know TR is not the king of 1v1 I have an HR trapper with high regen which I can also heal my allies like a DC and I have no problem if it comes to 1v1 with a TR same goes to my CW.
I call BS on that post. Quite sure your main is a TR lol. Nice try.
The facts contradict everything you just stated.
Tell me the time your online, so I send a TR against your HR or CW. I give you 1m ad if you win, but for that, I am allowed to take a screenshot of every defeat u suffer. Will be a nice collection of pictures.
I call BS on that post. Quite sure your main is a TR lol. Nice try.
The facts contradict everything you just stated.
Tell me the time your online, so I send a TR against your HR or CW. I give you 1m ad if you win, but for that, I am allowed to take a screenshot of every defeat u suffer. Will be a nice collection of pictures.
I call BS on that post. Quite sure your main is a TR lol. Nice try.
The facts contradict everything you just stated.
Tell me the time your online, so I send a TR against your HR or CW. I give you 1m ad if you win, but for that, I am allowed to take a screenshot of every defeat u suffer. Will be a nice collection of pictures.
TR kids these days…
I have seen a HR that regularly beat TRs, even when they were stronger in preview, sir. Ironically, as it turns out, he was also a trapper then. But then given the fact he was a player that outclasses most of the people in these boards by a wide margin with much confidence, I do admit its not a case that can be regularly referenced in terms of class balance.
(ps) Trapper roots, for some reason, also ignore some CC-breakers such as Vengeance's Pursuit, sir. Much like the Ray of Frost root ignores the CC-breaking function. Makes life pretty hard for at least Whisperknives... when's this going to be fixed, i wonder, sir. Just for a FYI.
I have seen a HR that regularly beat TRs, even when they were stronger in preview, sir. Ironically, as it turns out, he was also a trapper then. But then given the fact he was a player that outclasses most of the people in these boards by a wide margin with much confidence, I do admit its not a case that can be regularly referenced in terms of class balance.
(ps) Trapper roots, for some reason, also ignore some CC-breakers such as Vengeance's Pursuit, sir. Much like the Ray of Frost root ignores the CC-breaking function. Makes life pretty hard for at least Whisperknives... when's this going to be fixed, i wonder, sir. Just for a FYI.
that's why i was asking, for me the stronger class 1vs1 is a scoundrel tr that however can be countered with a gwf/dc ( no, shocking execution is broken full stop. i m assuming a no shocking execution 1vs1 )
every other tr is more or less easy to play against.
the damage source of saboteur are piercing daggers and gloaming cut, the first ones bring the tr visible 2 seconds for each daggers....it's dead. Trapper HR (i know for sure, i main him) will eat him alive, same dps dc, same cw since shield is bugged and piercing does not work against it.
executioner are cheese, once double proc of shadow of demise are fixed we will laugh at it.
i can say my problem with tr right now is: dazes ( feat only dazes are ok, encounter dazes are ok, both are too many) and shocking execution.
all the other aspects are just a l2p problem.
about shocking execution i prefer it to not ignore dr at all and buff the base damage.
its damage is not "that" high. it just ignores dr bringing it up to more or less ridicolous levels which never change.
cw are able to hit for way more.
maggio. from element (my guild) can hit me for 20k but with the right features (chilling presence, caos magic, crit) that sometimes skyrockets to 115k mitigated to 70k.
knife edge should be totally reworked in something else.
as long as the TR can stealth and onhit out of stealth, no need to invest anything into defense this hole discussion is worthless
yesterday 16k TR (think its sab tree?) with >10 Power >2k crit ARP etc, no tenacity 1,5 k DR, 500 toughness and regen..
he was going arround just onehitting everyone..
stealth has to be reworked, SE and all these other redicules encounters has to tolerate at least Tenacity,
for what reason do all other classes invest into tenacity/DR toughness etc and sacrifice offence? Just to be onehittet?
playing a permastealth is cheap with all these broken encounters, so take away the damage as long they are in stealth, give them damage out of stealth
so if these permastealth hiding rogues want to fight they have to appear
Name or it didnt happen. Because I speak of the best HRs and best TRs. And the best HRs can NOT beat a TR right now. Period. As no other class can win against a TR (always best class player vs best TR).
Ofc you can get lucky against a TR with roots or TR makes several misstakes in a row, but in general: NO CLASS CAN BEAT A TR.
No offense: but players like rayrdan are far away from being a top TR. So its mainly his l2p issue if he cant beat every other class. There is a reason, why in every serious premade there are ALWAYS two people on the TR, because 1vs1 he cannot be beaten. I can provide countless hours of videos about that if u dont believe. Footage of the best pvp guilds battling each other. And you HAVE always send two people to the TR node, not to speak, that you cant queue pmvspm without a rogue these days.
So can we pls cut the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and beeing honest here: TR is broken right now because of several issues. It is not a l2p issue for other classes. Its kinda funny ONLY TRs are saying "just l2p". Every other player, even the best of the best, acknowledge that TRs are OP and broken.
Name or it didnt happen. Because I speak of the best HRs and best TRs. And the best HRs can NOT beat a TR right now. Period. As no other class can win against a TR (always best class player vs best TR).
Ofc you can get lucky against a TR with roots or TR makes several misstakes in a row, but in general: NO CLASS CAN BEAT A TR.
No offense: but players like rayrdan are far away from being a top TR. So its mainly his l2p issue if he cant beat every other class. There is a reason, why in every serious premade there are ALWAYS two people on the TR, because 1vs1 he cannot be beaten. I can provide countless hours of videos about that if u dont believe. Footage of the best pvp guilds battling each other. And you HAVE always send two people to the TR node, not to speak, that you cant queue pmvspm without a rogue these days.
So can we pls cut the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and beeing honest here: TR is broken right now because of several issues. It is not a l2p issue for other classes. Its kinda funny ONLY TRs are saying "just l2p". Every other player, even the best of the best, acknowledge that TRs are OP and broken.
You guys are lying to urself…
the point i was trying to explain is that the situation is not as critical as it seems. nerfing dazes and shocking, maybe take a look at knife edge should be enough to balance things.
mod 5 i m playing full time my HR i have little problem vs tr until either a shocking comes to my head or i am permadazed.
that's why i was asking, for me the stronger class 1vs1 is a scoundrel tr that however can be countered with a gwf/dc ( no, shocking execution is broken full stop. i m assuming a no shocking execution 1vs1 )
every other tr is more or less easy to play against.
the damage source of saboteur are piercing daggers and gloaming cut, the first ones bring the tr visible 2 seconds for each daggers....it's dead. Trapper HR (i know for sure, i main him) will eat him alive, same dps dc, same cw since shield is bugged and piercing does not work against it.
executioner are cheese, once double proc of shadow of demise are fixed we will laugh at it.
i can say my problem with tr right now is: dazes ( feat only dazes are ok, encounter dazes are ok, both are too many) and shocking execution.
all the other aspects are just a l2p problem.
about shocking execution i prefer it to not ignore dr at all and buff the base damage.
its damage is not "that" high. it just ignores dr bringing it up to more or less ridicolous levels which never change.
cw are able to hit for way more.
maggio. from element (my guild) can hit me for 20k but with the right features (chilling presence, caos magic, crit) that sometimes skyrockets to 115k mitigated to 70k.
knife edge should be totally reworked in something else.
The biggest problem with scoundrel i think is mainly what it cumulate at high lvl, with high equip, it can still be perma stealth, the daze allow to control target too long and it permit too much mechanism. Here i TR i meet two days ago in gauntlym. the guy was scoundrel, he played this way and was able to keep 5 player on a spot alone.
Perma stealth, daze with smoke bomb, if daze success, daily and goes back to stealth. turn around and restart 10 second later. etc..
The worst in that is he was playing with a very high deflect, i saw it by most of my shoot doesn't deal damage when i was able to dodge smoke bomb and even if i was able to strike before dodge.
His damage were not this high, but there is no way i can imagine a build to actually beat that in a one to one.
.
daze control are too long, stealth mechnism still allow to be perma stealth without choosint the perma way and at least the fact that knock out effect are practicaly banished or this hard to use doesn't give any opportunity to fight back.
There is at least one thing that need to be drop. High DR, too much dodge, perma stealth, control too long, lack of mechnism to pass DR in a couple of class. some things have to change.
Even if it require perfect play, perfect build, i should still able to think in a way to win, actually, it not when it come to this kind of TR.
mod 5 i m playing full time my HR i have little problem vs tr until either a shocking comes to my head or i am permadazed.
"Perma daze" is not happening in high end premades. Its just, daze --> some GCs --> daze --> BB or shocking --> dead
If the TR misses his roation or his daze, he just stays in stealth hiding, if things go crucial, emergency BB --> all encounters of cd, rinse and repeat.
Wanna try some 1vs1 with a TR who doesnt use SE? Only timed dazing and SS… good luck "beating" that setup. I witnessed that when you got destroyed in some streamed matches :-P
No offense because nothing you can really do. In one out of ten times you might even get lucky and catch the TR wih roots, and you migt proc his SF and maybe even kill him. That doesnt outweight the other 9 times when ur getting slaughtered.
Its funny to actual witness such a situation on TS, when someone says he can handle TRs, then he is matched up against a BiS and dangerous TR (not these bandwaggon hopping TRs because the class is OP), then he goes 1-10 against him, and thats the point when these players are either getting really quite or really loud on TS. Funny to watch…
think everybody knows there is no chance against a well geared, and especially good performing TR
fortunately, going pug all the time, there are not as many good performing TR´s as someone tried to make us believe: "this class is played by most scilled people"
its exactly the opposite: "this class is played by the most scilless player" for sure, its cheap to play , only ppl who can´t succeed with other classes will go for it,
every time i meet a scilled TR its beyond hope to succeed
Yesterday a guildie TR (saboteur) ~19k gs and me (CW(renegade): very close to 20k) had training session in IWP.
Rules were:
-no pets
-no pots
-soulforge is stop
-everything else allowed.
So he beat me 10 times in a row and lucky me won once.
Then we introduced that dailies are forbidden skills.
And guess what?
The game changed the way around. Now I was permanently winning match per match.
Conclusion: TR Dailies need rework. But it's kinda hard to say what needs to be done without making them useless...
-Maybe SE needs hard base damage reduction (ignore DR and everything else would be okay then)
-Bloodbath + Knife's Edge multi procc needs to be fixed. And something like BB can't activated in stealth, so not every single hit crits with 100%.
More like the first thing that needs to be done, is RETRACT all classes in their massive rate of AP gain, sir. Particularly the artifacts Sigil of the Devoted, and artifact cloaks that provde freebie AP per time.
Currently the entire PvP scene is of a massively warped one where players of all classes simply bombard the field with so much 'special powers', which were designed from the start to be used rarely, only in certain intervals as the natural AP gain rate allowed. Instead, we've all seen videos showing some TRs are using 6~7 Daily powers within the span of 3 minutes, sir.
TRs are by definition one of the slowest AP gaining classes, and thus many of our dailies are comparatively very powerful. These were never supposed to be spammed so much. Although to a lesser extent all classes have the same problem -- we've all seen the mid-node just covered with 2.. 3... 4.. AoE dailies right from the start of the match.
This is abnormal, sirs. The devs have actually blocked how we can fill up our AP bar before entering a match, because certain classes -- like us TRs -- simply opening up the fight with powerful dailies can ruin a match really quickly and skew up the results. I dunno if the devs have forgotten what they've done in the past, or simply their policy changed, but whatever it is, this is wrong.
Sigil of the Devoted should be something like 10~20% more AP gain on passive, and 100% more AP gain for 15 seconds when activated... and the cloak should be ASSISTING AP through adding more buffs like maybe 5~10% more AP gain or so, instead of automatically increasing your AP with simply given time. Or conversely, the freebie AP should only kick in when in combat -- this is what I think, sirs.
Of course, this should be on TOP of rebalancing TR dailies -- or rather, the obscene amount of damage Exec builds do... (as well as bug fixes for the double-proc SoD).
Comments
So I went in to pug match to see how this new build would do.I used Shadow Strike,Gloaming Cut,Lashing Blade,Deft Strike, and Cloud of Steel.I found that with my big bad 9k GS I could hold my own fight 16k GS ppl and would only die like 1-2 times a match with 20 kills.I went 1 on 1 with a 18k gwf and he couldn't touch me.All I had to do was Lashing blades from stealth roll,go back into stealth,Use Deft Strike to slow/daze,roll use Shadow Strike and repeat.It was that easy.So maybe he wasn't that good but come on a 9k fighting a 18k shouldn't be able to last long.Let along get him low on HP/kill him.That's just way overed powered.
Before the changes to the class I loved playing my TR.I was a non-perma build and had to work at killing/staying alive.It was really fun,but now it's like I don't even need to try to in a match now.So if a 9k GS TR can do that,then the 18-20k GS TR must be falling a sleep in matchs (and still be getting like 40 kills).One of the thing that made me like the TR was that they was nurfted so badly that most ppl didn't want to play them or thought they was easy pray (if they wasn't a prema).Now ever unskilled person is rolling a TR and winning with it.
Now I think it's funny how the changes was going to stop prema,but ended up make it was easier to be one.Like someone said in this thread.Not only did they make it easier to be a prema but that added to much dmg and added a CC to them.Making them way over powered.If you think I'm trolling then go try it for your self and you'll see.
The easiest thing to do and will balance TRs is just change all piercing damage to regular damage. (This includes SE/SoD and Shadowy Opp)
Stealth bonus should be changed to increase your crit chance by 50% OF your crit. So if you have 40% crit, in stealth you would have 60% crit in stealth.
This forces you to actually stack crit for more benefits. The only other issue I see is Lashingblade still hits far too hard, so I would chance the stealth bonus from "50% more crit severity" to something like a "30% reduced CD" when used in stealth.
That reduces the 1 shot LB + wait for SoD proc for insta kill.
SE respecting DR/Tenacity will be enough of a nerf for that skill, it will be balanced IMO.
I think that would balance everything out (with the exception of daze) which would also need to respect CC resist/Tenacity.
Boom. Done. TR balanced.
You do realize that SE has 100% piercing damage? Now you're unknowingly suggesting to double the damage of SE. Even without piercing that would be 1HKO.
Can TR be beaten? Sure. But can it be done consistently? **** no. You will never get 1:1 k:d ratio when matched against an equally geared TR. More like 1:10.
Now that's the kind of response I like to see!
As you stated, I don't think you will achieve a 1:1 ratio against the current TR. It is still a bit OP, even after some nerfs during Mod 5. I am just against too many nerfs, which many people have suggested across multiple threads. Two or three more minor changes should balance things out in PvP a bit better.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
TR is seperated from the others as in they have limited ae skills, or aoe for the wow players, and that means they will excel in single target damage. That is the balance I see here. Now at first I hated TRs- they can be invisible and hunt a person down very effectively. They do have downsides as well just as any other class.
For instance if you take a new player who just reached level 10 for the first time and enters pvp they will get smashed by other players for the simple reason that the other players are seasoned.
My point is that it takes different times for different people to click with the character that they play and a healthy sense of passion is needed to get good at anything. So don't give up and play with different skills.
Apart form the occasional 1 shot I receive, I don't really have any out of the ordinary problems with TR's that can be singled out only to TRs. The only reason I feel a need to say anything is that I hate to see TR get credit for being unstoppable or godly or what ever- they aren't the BEST class for pvp- they just have a tendency to be played well and easily by many players.
I am currently enjoying a 60 GF and 60 GWF and am happy with the performance I portray as a team player in capturing nodes or defending nodes againsts TR's or any other class. This is what team domination is about- who can control a better half of a map longer.
On one final note, and I really hate to say this only because I am a firm believer that skill is just as important as GS,... I believe subdividing PVP with brackets of GS will fix this problem of "constantly" being owned which I think the true rage comes from. For example if your GS is 12.5(common gearscore these days as a newb 60) then you will fit in a catagory of GS'ed team members and foes in the area of 10k-15k. Also this will fix the level 10 fiasco(i take part in too xD) where people create TR's with dragonbone weaps and level 10 enchants and then go pvp and seem god-like throughout the whole pre-60 levels- but this is done with every class not just TR.
I am sure a firm understanding of boons, builds and encounter powers will be needed to combat players who are proficient in this said knowledge, not the simple *lets nerf them till i can finally beat them* stategy.
As a TR, I would not object to these you've mentioned, sir.
This is usually a good way to bring in a "natural predator" to a distinctly powerful class, while not making it "an even more OP class to be able to do so"... effectively, the weakest class in PvP -- ironically -- will be equipped with the best powers to neuter the strongest class in game. This often offers some amount of gratification to those using the weak class, as well as an important role, whilst offering a very strong counter to the strongest class... without disrupting the overall power balance too greatly.
For example, sirs, I'd recommend that the devs come up with a very specialized powers such as;
...and they can maybe put one or two of such powers to the currently weakest SW build.
At that point the SW becomes "the only direct counter to certain TR tactics".. so while it is still weak and likely to be targeted and killed, its existence would greatly threaten the enemy's TR. I've always liked the idea of certain ironies in games, where the weakest and most ignored class/builds, actually have a great potential to neutralize the game's most powerful class.
It was sort of like this in City of Heroes and "Trick Arrow" powers... the weakest powers in PvE and generally considered useless, but surprisingly, it offered the most powerful, direct counter to the game's most OP class called Stalkers. That was an interesting irony I relished in that game, perhaps the same could happen here as well, sirs.
This statement is hilariously wrong. There was 1 mod when the TR was not immensely strong and that was the previous one and even then the TR was still among the best back-capper behind the HR just because of how overpowered a good HR could be.
Of course. By another TR. This is where pvp is going btw. Nowadays when pvp-ing I can see more TRs in proportion than one year ago. One more year and we'll have the full-TR pvp that is already on the other servers in the world.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Yes people nerd rage at me saying i am no good alone but as me and one other person is sending them back to their spawn point i am telling them they are no good alone either.
the only statement that is true is alot of people end up playing TR exceptionally well and the TR is often played easily.
I am noticing that alot of "leet" players are attempting to find the perfect hybrid role and i blame this on why people are getting owned. Also i think alot of people are still learning to stack attribute,encounters, boons even though they think they know what they are doing its actually another story.
I have multiple classes with different build. this includes TR, i have one with perma stealth and one pure dps face melt. I play my gf and gwf in pvp as a team member and i dont care about how TR's can kill someone 1vs1 "everytime". when you go into pvp it is a team situation, if you get caught alone and are handled then learn to not get caught alone so often.
If you are purposefully going out alone to see if you can finally prove your mettle and receive bragging rights but loose anyways then that is no ones fault but your own. Anyways you will always catch me on my GWF in pvp who is pure dps with no added constitution on character creation- i stack dps only and im fine playing as support only. Because of that my team wins most of the time- name is mimosa. TRs try to hunt me down and kill me but im hardly ever alone... as soon as i see one i sprint over and snare them and then sprint about 10 ft away immediately so my CW and SW can make short work of them. ITS SO FUNNY TO SEE EVERYTIME. Sometimes i am lucky enough to sprint back in for the kill shot and get my name on the screen.
Who really cares if people cant beat a TR 1 vs 1?
You are not getting it in your head sadly.
You're right on one thing. It shouldn't only be about 1v1....except the TR is also the best at keeping 2 people busy for the longest time and even possibly beating both of them. TRs can go to long durations of stealth, shadow strike and ITC to keep 2 people occupied.
A CW can fight 1v1 most classes but they do not have stealth so they instantly die within seconds in a 2v1.
1 We are not talking about the healing dc whit pet and if you ment a normal endless spamming making team immortal dc I guess you lost all credibility you ever had and ever would have.
2 If you have no problem with Trs you are the sole champ of Hr in the game because even the absolut best have huge problems with Trs so are you saying that you are in a class for yourself.
You dont happend to play Tr do ya now run along and troll some other forum.
I call BS on that post. Quite sure your main is a TR lol. Nice try.
The facts contradict everything you just stated.
Tell me the time your online, so I send a TR against your HR or CW. I give you 1m ad if you win, but for that, I am allowed to take a screenshot of every defeat u suffer. Will be a nice collection of pictures.
TR kids these days…
who is the tr?
I have seen a HR that regularly beat TRs, even when they were stronger in preview, sir. Ironically, as it turns out, he was also a trapper then. But then given the fact he was a player that outclasses most of the people in these boards by a wide margin with much confidence, I do admit its not a case that can be regularly referenced in terms of class balance.
(ps) Trapper roots, for some reason, also ignore some CC-breakers such as Vengeance's Pursuit, sir. Much like the Ray of Frost root ignores the CC-breaking function. Makes life pretty hard for at least Whisperknives... when's this going to be fixed, i wonder, sir. Just for a FYI.
every other tr is more or less easy to play against.
the damage source of saboteur are piercing daggers and gloaming cut, the first ones bring the tr visible 2 seconds for each daggers....it's dead. Trapper HR (i know for sure, i main him) will eat him alive, same dps dc, same cw since shield is bugged and piercing does not work against it.
executioner are cheese, once double proc of shadow of demise are fixed we will laugh at it.
i can say my problem with tr right now is: dazes ( feat only dazes are ok, encounter dazes are ok, both are too many) and shocking execution.
all the other aspects are just a l2p problem.
about shocking execution i prefer it to not ignore dr at all and buff the base damage.
its damage is not "that" high. it just ignores dr bringing it up to more or less ridicolous levels which never change.
cw are able to hit for way more.
maggio. from element (my guild) can hit me for 20k but with the right features (chilling presence, caos magic, crit) that sometimes skyrockets to 115k mitigated to 70k.
knife edge should be totally reworked in something else.
yesterday 16k TR (think its sab tree?) with >10 Power >2k crit ARP etc, no tenacity 1,5 k DR, 500 toughness and regen..
he was going arround just onehitting everyone..
stealth has to be reworked, SE and all these other redicules encounters has to tolerate at least Tenacity,
for what reason do all other classes invest into tenacity/DR toughness etc and sacrifice offence? Just to be onehittet?
playing a permastealth is cheap with all these broken encounters, so take away the damage as long they are in stealth, give them damage out of stealth
so if these permastealth hiding rogues want to fight they have to appear
Name or it didnt happen. Because I speak of the best HRs and best TRs. And the best HRs can NOT beat a TR right now. Period. As no other class can win against a TR (always best class player vs best TR).
Ofc you can get lucky against a TR with roots or TR makes several misstakes in a row, but in general: NO CLASS CAN BEAT A TR.
No offense: but players like rayrdan are far away from being a top TR. So its mainly his l2p issue if he cant beat every other class. There is a reason, why in every serious premade there are ALWAYS two people on the TR, because 1vs1 he cannot be beaten. I can provide countless hours of videos about that if u dont believe. Footage of the best pvp guilds battling each other. And you HAVE always send two people to the TR node, not to speak, that you cant queue pmvspm without a rogue these days.
So can we pls cut the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and beeing honest here: TR is broken right now because of several issues. It is not a l2p issue for other classes. Its kinda funny ONLY TRs are saying "just l2p". Every other player, even the best of the best, acknowledge that TRs are OP and broken.
You guys are lying to urself…
the point i was trying to explain is that the situation is not as critical as it seems. nerfing dazes and shocking, maybe take a look at knife edge should be enough to balance things.
mod 5 i m playing full time my HR i have little problem vs tr until either a shocking comes to my head or i am permadazed.
The biggest problem with scoundrel i think is mainly what it cumulate at high lvl, with high equip, it can still be perma stealth, the daze allow to control target too long and it permit too much mechanism. Here i TR i meet two days ago in gauntlym. the guy was scoundrel, he played this way and was able to keep 5 player on a spot alone.
Perma stealth, daze with smoke bomb, if daze success, daily and goes back to stealth. turn around and restart 10 second later. etc..
The worst in that is he was playing with a very high deflect, i saw it by most of my shoot doesn't deal damage when i was able to dodge smoke bomb and even if i was able to strike before dodge.
His damage were not this high, but there is no way i can imagine a build to actually beat that in a one to one.
.
daze control are too long, stealth mechnism still allow to be perma stealth without choosint the perma way and at least the fact that knock out effect are practicaly banished or this hard to use doesn't give any opportunity to fight back.
There is at least one thing that need to be drop. High DR, too much dodge, perma stealth, control too long, lack of mechnism to pass DR in a couple of class. some things have to change.
Even if it require perfect play, perfect build, i should still able to think in a way to win, actually, it not when it come to this kind of TR.
"Perma daze" is not happening in high end premades. Its just, daze --> some GCs --> daze --> BB or shocking --> dead
If the TR misses his roation or his daze, he just stays in stealth hiding, if things go crucial, emergency BB --> all encounters of cd, rinse and repeat.
Wanna try some 1vs1 with a TR who doesnt use SE? Only timed dazing and SS… good luck "beating" that setup. I witnessed that when you got destroyed in some streamed matches :-P
No offense because nothing you can really do. In one out of ten times you might even get lucky and catch the TR wih roots, and you migt proc his SF and maybe even kill him. That doesnt outweight the other 9 times when ur getting slaughtered.
Its funny to actual witness such a situation on TS, when someone says he can handle TRs, then he is matched up against a BiS and dangerous TR (not these bandwaggon hopping TRs because the class is OP), then he goes 1-10 against him, and thats the point when these players are either getting really quite or really loud on TS. Funny to watch…
fortunately, going pug all the time, there are not as many good performing TR´s as someone tried to make us believe: "this class is played by most scilled people"
its exactly the opposite: "this class is played by the most scilless player" for sure, its cheap to play , only ppl who can´t succeed with other classes will go for it,
every time i meet a scilled TR its beyond hope to succeed
More like the first thing that needs to be done, is RETRACT all classes in their massive rate of AP gain, sir. Particularly the artifacts Sigil of the Devoted, and artifact cloaks that provde freebie AP per time.
Currently the entire PvP scene is of a massively warped one where players of all classes simply bombard the field with so much 'special powers', which were designed from the start to be used rarely, only in certain intervals as the natural AP gain rate allowed. Instead, we've all seen videos showing some TRs are using 6~7 Daily powers within the span of 3 minutes, sir.
TRs are by definition one of the slowest AP gaining classes, and thus many of our dailies are comparatively very powerful. These were never supposed to be spammed so much. Although to a lesser extent all classes have the same problem -- we've all seen the mid-node just covered with 2.. 3... 4.. AoE dailies right from the start of the match.
This is abnormal, sirs. The devs have actually blocked how we can fill up our AP bar before entering a match, because certain classes -- like us TRs -- simply opening up the fight with powerful dailies can ruin a match really quickly and skew up the results. I dunno if the devs have forgotten what they've done in the past, or simply their policy changed, but whatever it is, this is wrong.
Sigil of the Devoted should be something like 10~20% more AP gain on passive, and 100% more AP gain for 15 seconds when activated... and the cloak should be ASSISTING AP through adding more buffs like maybe 5~10% more AP gain or so, instead of automatically increasing your AP with simply given time. Or conversely, the freebie AP should only kick in when in combat -- this is what I think, sirs.
Of course, this should be on TOP of rebalancing TR dailies -- or rather, the obscene amount of damage Exec builds do... (as well as bug fixes for the double-proc SoD).