perma stealth of before Vs perma stealth of now ??
Lol it became worse ,now with contrôl and dps too .
and why giving them more distance on dodge and another dodge ...
stealth , ITC ,Smoke bomb, dodge and dodge and stealth again and dots are doing their job while every one is dazed and have no clue where the tr is , maybe he even went to take a coffe .
, i can't believe that devs did this . really , did they even tested it ?
Just fight a match, a tr able to 1 vs 3 or even able to kill them all...
I believe that tr player is very skillful.
But as I play wk tr or non itc tr, I really want to say:
1. Change the itc how it works, can break cc but not immune cc with itc is active.
2. Jump, most skillfully player no matter what class they are, er...except gf, they all use jump as the second dodgy machine to dodgy. I know most player will said learn to use it, which I am using it too, but is that something wrong with this? Sabotuers + itc+ jumping almost unkillable, cuz u almost even can't cc this type of tr
WE tested. We gave them feedback. Devs let it go live. The build you speak of is not all TRs. It's Saboteurs. They daze with smoke bomb or dazing strike and permastealth and abuse the hell out of piercing damage. On top of all that, they have Bloobath to massacre you with.
They 100% crit from stealth, which they are always in, so they can ditch DEX. This allows them to max CON and have STR way up high as well. That's the Saboteur for you.
I'm actually surprised some of the guys abusing the Saboteur aren't running with high CHA as well.
Sir, over these past few months I've come to think that BOTH the amount of problems the Saboteuers and Executioners are causing in PvP are generally much more amplified due to the following:
(a) crazy AP gains and AP refills through artifact/artifact equipment = daily spamming
(b) Bloodbath + Knife's Edge
(c) recent changes to Shocking Execution (a la "What the HELL were the devs thinking?")
Usually, us Whisperknives are exactly at the situation where some people want the TRs to be, we've been made viable and competent through mod5, but we have clear weaknesses and limits. However, nowadays it seems the problem has gone back to basically the MI problem, so to speak.
Basically, when the above pointers of (a), (b), and (c) are combined with the MI, the balancing/nerfs implemented by the devs, particularly the "2 second revelation", are essentially made useless.
The MI was always known for its resilience due to ITC. However, under ideal conditions, I find that the "2 second revelation" does work more or less against Saboteuers... but ONLY if the above (a), (b), and (c) were not present. The pointers, (a), (b) and (c) is simply a deus ex machina which solves all problems for the MI build. It already has good survivability, but (a), (b), and (c) also makes sure that the MI TR can simply obliterate any potential threats and dangers, before it builds up high enough to ultimately flush it out and kill it.
For example, when NOT using the above factors, I find that a certain portion of the advantages of permastealth are indeed, curbed quite a bit. Did you notice that people are starting to NOT use Gloaming Cut, sir? The conventional Sabo permastealth tactic has lost quite a lot of its punch. You can keep in stealth and force the high DPS and piercing damage, but every time you attack, now you can be retaliated.
Nowadays, sir, the MIs have mostly dumped Gloaming Cut and went back to CoS. The 2s revelation does give them too much pressure. CoS hits crazy strong, but now a stream of attacks will simply reveal you long in the process, and an enemy with a ranged CC (particulary HRs and tab-shielded CWs) can retaliate with a certain amount of success. So, naturally the frequency of attacks coming from Sabos have went down -- which means they are dealing less direct attack damage than before.
The problem is, sir, normally this should work against those TRs since they are forced to stay their attack and only throw stuff carefully. But then the above (a), (b), (c) factors come along. Currently the Sabo tactics have changed. It's not the all-out attack it used to be.
It's simply slot in ITC / DS / SS, CoS and GC(or, unslot GC and change to DF)... use DS and stealth attacks to buy time, throw in a few attacks.. and then wait for AP recharge, or Sigil of the Devoted recharge. This is EXACTLY what we've seen in some of the videos disclosed in the forums.
Sir, basically, the (a), (b), (c) factors above, are doing more than 60~70% of the work for these Sabo or Exec TRs. It doesn't matter how much pressure you are under, or how low frequency your attack is. Just dance around the node floor and buy enough time, and the AP recharge kicks in, and offers you an unmitigable mega-damage, or a high-damge 3-second invulnerability which recharges all your powers.
...basically, the most problematic, frustrating TRs to fight against in PvP are completely dependant on AP gains and dailies, sir.
No I can't, because TRs are overpowered. Saboteurs are the most OP. Executioners will get balanced as soon as double proc SoD is fixed.
Based on my build and the tough competition I get from good PvPers at my gear level, I don't believe Scoundrels are OP, but I'm biased.
Like rayrdan, I want TRs to get adjusted so that they are balanced. But there are a ton of people who want to nerf TRs to the ground and it's just not needed.
thank to be honest.
The sab part is completly OP when it come to HL, BIS player, The scoundrel part is on my view much problematic when it come to lower lvl, daze time is too long, allowing too much and since the daze time is not dependent of the lvl, you can receive a way too long time of daze that allow Tr's to unleach too much damage safe.
So for me yes scoundrel daze should be lower (and maybe more dependent on the equip lvl) and for the sab part i doubt only one change would be sufficent to make it more on the other's class lvl (as i asked can you try to fight with your character without return in stealth once first strike is done) i' m pretty sure it will still remain an event match (due to other mechanism on TR'S)
Not all of us join the forum after get slaughtered in-game and cry for big nerfs to destroy a class again.
Just want to see TR "competition friendly" again, not being the source of frustration. It shouldn't be the reason to stay far away from PvP.
Another problem are people who don't know anything about TR and whats going on and additionally refuse to learn or even try to understand smth.
So they cry for random nerfs!
I always try to give as constructive criticism as possible. Guess in TRs case it'll kinda hard to find out the middle, between still overbuffed and overnerfed.
Please folks! don't join this conversation and cry for nerfs after you have been slaughtered from any TR.
E.g.: you get killed by Lashing Blade (LB) in one (1) hit? So people come to forum and cry LB is way to OP.
First of all, if LB kills you from 100% to 0% something is wrong...with you!
-no pvp speccd build
-little HP pool
-no tenacity, ever heard something about this stat?
-Gearscore difference in general
On the other hand the TR is specifically designed for high LB crits:
-First Strike (passive) (maybe that's reason for OP LB and not LB itself)
-several executioner feats (" see above ")
-high power
--> so you need to give up on survivability and some other aspects!
People often do not see the core of some problems.
Play a class other than a TR and fight one. Also, even in BiS levels, the amount of damage on a First Strike Lashing with a P. Vorpal can reach 47k on max Tenacity targets. That's more HP than some classes wear in this setup.
This is in addition to having high levels of survivability due to the fact you can't see them, and having CC immunity and 100% deflect through Impossible to Catch.
At the moment I'm playing a CW (20k) in PvP and don't have any problems with current executioner LB TRs...maybe 1 out of 10 hits me. Afterwards they have 15-20 sec CD --> means death to them, cause after they revealed pop ITC --> back in stealth --> but what now? I'm not going to do nothing. At this point it really comes to L2P (never thought I'd say that).
Ok, so then you haven't actually been fighting good ones.
Additionally I can still burn them a bit down while they popped ITC ( other classes lack in this point, no doubt).
Case in point. A TR will still throw out massive damage during ITC, they're not gonna try to run considering it grants CC immunity until the last second.
Btw, with my post above tsokushin I tried to point out that passives and feats are the main reason for high LB crits not LB itself.
And I really don't get what you mean by: "due to the fact you can't see them".
Hmm so if I physically can't see them I'm just doing nothing and let me hit?
A skilled PvPer will try to lure him elsewhere or dodge until his stealth meter drained.
As in, they're stealthed, they're unable to be seen. Many of the good ones can stealth they're way up the steps in hotenow and hide by the pillar until stealth is ready again. You won't have any warning. In rivenscar, there's numerous spots by the door.
And what you also ignore is that stamina is finite, you burn all your stamina trying to dodge the lashing and then he can simply hit you with a full bloodbath since you no longer have any stamina to dodge.
Little example here: many players come to a node which is contested or will be captured soon but no one on it. (Pssst TR already waiting for you to step on node)
What are you doing you step on node. Wrong done!
Ok, and then a smart TR will just cap the node while you sit off of it, leading his team to have the advantage in points.
Stay outside the node on long range until his stealth ends, then attack, or if stealth lasts longer go at the very last second on that node (don't let him cap it).
Most of them get in panic if they see: "my stealth is nearly empty better get off node and try to kill the enemy fast"
Once again, fight good TR's. A good one can simply use a couple of atwills or dazing at the end of stealth, pop ITC, and dodge out the stealth recharge, then they're stealth again.
Well, not with me, when TR leaves the node, it isn't contested anymore (red colored) --> sign to dodge/lure the TR away. Simple as that most of the time.
And in the long run, if you don't already have the cap, that's a recipe of losing the game as the TR team constantly leeches points from the point you're neither contesting or capping.
If you're defending, as I said, a good TR will wait until a stealth recharge, walk up without you having any knowledge, and 1 hit with lashing. If you just spam dodge the entire time (even with nobody there) that simply leaves you open to dazing->daily.
E.g.: you get killed by Lashing Blade (LB) in one (1) hit? So people come to forum and cry LB is way to OP.
First of all, if LB kills you from 100% to 0% something is wrong...with you!
-no pvp speccd build
-little HP pool
-no tenacity, ever heard something about this stat?
-Gearscore difference in general
On the other hand the TR is specifically designed for high LB crits:
-First Strike (passive) (maybe that's reason for OP LB and not LB itself)
-several executioner feats (" see above ")
-high power
--> so you need to give up on survivability and some other aspects!
People often do not see the core of some problems.
Your problem Can be reverted, is a TR need
PVP Spec build
High HP pool
Tenacity
Big gear score
To one shoot or be nearly on equal ground with many player. Answer is no. This Tr won't be able to reach top pvp player but it will be on equal ground with pvp spec medium player. (on that remmeber me a TR player that claim thing are on a correct spot and TR was weak in defense so it was compensate. After he explain is build he had 25 k HP and 14 % tenacity.
The second case is PVP BIS TR that also have the upper hand again other PVP BIS class.
What to change. that is where at least i'm not sure what to do. when you are watching comment, even with those test. what is going out is mainly nerf this so the OP actual build won't be OP (like lowering AP gain equipment). I'm not sure it will solve a thing. Why because all TR's mechanism are not the OPest individually, they are on PAR with with the best class on their own field. On par with GWF CC immun, on part in DPS with all strongest solo shotting class, on part in the defensive system with GF'S (not the same way) between deflec system and stealth, on par WITh CW when it come to control on the scoundrel (maybe even better), even range attack are still exist
That also the reason i think DEV didn't already come with a solution like they did on the past with CW. because it the summ of all that make TR OP, not a single point individually and that also why the 2 second visible miserably fail
Then? GS reach 20k doesn't means = skilled/experienced. Are you put the shield on tab? What gears u r waring? My 17k tr can't first hit with Lash blade 1 shot some cw at ur gs range, it will be around 25k dmg. If you have 20k gs and less then 25k hp?, it is ur problem.
Most Tr's skills has at least have 1 sec delay, you have a chance to dodge, put on ur headset and listen. Tow of my friend, a dc and a cw always able to dodge the attack unless there are lag occur.
It also happen to me, when I fight the skilled tr, cw, hr, dc, they almost dodge my most attacks including the first hit, its also very hard land the shocking execution on them.
while doing some random queues I met this Sab on the opposing team. My Scoundrel was 16.6, he was 17.8 so not that big of a gear difference. Dude beat me every single time. ITC took care of my daze and without it the Scoundrel behaved just like I expected it to behave - badly, I survived against him as long as I did only thanks to my own itc and the dodge reflexes I seem to have developed while testing the TR. He was in stealth maybe 3x more often than me and that piercing damage off of cloud of steel hit me for around 1500 every time. So far, from my personal testing experience, the Scoundrel is the least op tree when facing other classes because he reveals himself and fights in the open. When facing another rogue the Scoundrel can beat an Exec with good dodging skills and itc but loses to a good Sab.
Should be noted he had a full Profound and i have only 2x Profound atm.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
WE tested. We gave them feedback. Devs let it go live. The build you speak of is not all TRs. It's Saboteurs. They daze with smoke bomb or dazing strike and permastealth and abuse the hell out of piercing damage. On top of all that, they have Bloobath to massacre you with.
They 100% crit from stealth, which they are always in, so they can ditch DEX. This allows them to max CON and have STR way up high as well. That's the Saboteur for you.
I'm actually surprised some of the guys abusing the Saboteur aren't running with high CHA as well.
There were quite a lot of us that warned about this on test and I think it is about as bad as we predicted.
...
2. Jump, most skillfully player no matter what class they are, er...except gf, they all use jump as the second dodgy machine to dodgy. I know most player will said learn to use it, which I am using it too, but is that something wrong with this? Sabotuers + itc+ jumping almost unkillable, cuz u almost even can't cc this type of tr
I hate the jumping. I don't think it was intended to work that way and if it was it should drain stamina (I got called a HAMSTER and murderer and all sorts of things for suggesting that before). I think it looks stupid and is an abuse of an unintended side effect and with some people macro chain jumping I don't even see that it involves skill.
I hate the jumping. I don't think it was intended to work that way and if it was it should drain stamina (I got called a HAMSTER and murderer and all sorts of things for suggesting that before). I think it looks stupid and is an abuse of an unintended side effect and with some people macro chain jumping I don't even see that it involves skill.
This^. I'll start bunny hopping the day I delete Neverwinter from my HD, so thats that.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Just clarifying some things others have thrown in my post I've never said. (Happens quite often! Please feel free to send me your trashtalk via pm but let the constructive people have their discussion here)
- my 20k CW doesn't have 20k HP....
- I've never faced BiS TRs? Good that you know more about me and my friends/guildies...but its okay, you try hardly to defend your opinion with anything you can find, and sometimes you have to imagining.
--> I have faced BiS TRs, we're quite often doing Trainings in IWP to improve our skilllevel. (Maybe thats a reason, why I'm not suffering from TR) fought them trillion times. And tried out any possible combo of encounters/daily/passive.
Last but not least, nice try tsokushin. You have splitted up my post to turn some things around. Basically the point with the node cap and "waiting thing"
It's not possible to explain exactly how to play/counter a TR here in forum cause it depends hardly on the situation.
Good self-control man, keep it up and don't let yourself be baited. Post dissection is the most loathsome activity on the internet and always takes things out of context. Don't fall for it.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
while doing some random queues I met this Sab on the opposing team. My Scoundrel was 16.6, he was 17.8 so not that big of a gear difference. Dude beat me every single time. ITC took care of my daze and without it the Scoundrel behaved just like I expected it to behave - badly, I survived against him as long as I did only thanks to my own itc and the dodge reflexes I seem to have developed while testing the TR. He was in stealth maybe 3x more often than me and that piercing damage off of cloud of steel hit me for around 1500 every time. So far, from my personal testing experience, the Scoundrel is the least op tree when facing other classes because he reveals himself and fights in the open. When facing another rogue the Scoundrel can beat an Exec with good dodging skills and itc but loses to a good Sab.
Should be noted he had a full Profound and i have only 2x Profound atm.
Just personal experience here, sir, but IMO when it comes to MI Sabs or Execs, I think the WK Scoundrel has actually much better chances than MI Scoundrels in that the WK now has a greatly buffed up VP that tracks through stealth. This means the WK has something that has a good chance of hitting those MIs when they are unprotected by stealth.
In my case, sir, the fight usually turns out this way. Two TRs are aware of each other, and both go into the "stealth and sweep the node area" fight. While both TRs are whizzing around there are moments where they briefly cross paths and turn visible. Usually both parties fire off their CoS attack, but Concussive allows a decisive upper hand to the Scoundrel, and during that 2.5s daze the Sabo is revealed since CC state suppresses stealth.
At that moment lands VP, and Skull Cracker is procced. The MI Sabo, 9 times out of 10, to escape further damage, uses ITC. You use that brief moment to throw a SS to refresh stealth, in all likelihood the Sabo does the same, both go back into stealth... count to 3~4, or more directly listen to the "woosh!" audio queue that indicates ITC is off. Now the Sabo is in stealth, he's got no ITC for the next 15 seconds or so, he just used his SS to re-enter stealth so his SS is also about 10 more secs away. He thinks he's safe in stealth... and BAM! VP teleport tracks through stealth, lands a very short stun for a brief pause to the guy, deals around 10~12k damage, and immediately you follow up with dazing strike.
Basically rinse and repeat, try to match your rotation so that whenever he uses ITC, you have VP to use and land. Prior to mod5, VP itself was so weak in damage, dazing strike was slow to activate, and the stuns were so short that this tactic wasn't too viable... but now it works quite reliably in my case, sir. Maybe you could give it a try?
(ps) on the other hand.. MI Scoundrels are a bane to WKs as a whole.. so I would generally avoid those, sir.
Just clarifying some things others have thrown in my post I've never said. (Happens quite often! Please feel free to send me your trashtalk via pm but let the constructive people have their discussion here)
- my 20k CW doesn't have 20k HP....
That's what other people have said, not me.
- I've never faced BiS TRs? Good that you know more about me and my friends/guildies...but its okay, you try hardly to defend your opinion with anything you can find, and sometimes you have to imagining.
--> I have faced BiS TRs, we're quite often doing Trainings in IWP to improve our skilllevel. (Maybe thats a reason, why I'm not suffering from TR) fought them trillion times. And tried out any possible combo of encounters/daily/passive.
Couple of things here.
1) I doubt your guildmates are entirely as skilled as you say they are.
2) Icewind Dale is not domination. Heck, in open world PvP, your argument holds even less water as you can be preoccupied with mining black ice and the such and a TR will have that supreme opening LB.
3) Saboteurs are capable of putting out significant damage with LB, however they're more apt to using perma daze combos and are able to stealth much more frequently. Fighting them puts your argument to rest.
Last but not least, nice try tsokushin. You have splitted up my post to turn some things around. Basically the point with the node cap and "waiting thing"
Nice try, but I don't see you posting anything of how you would go about countering TR combat skills that completely shut down anything you have stated as a counter. Skilled TR's do not simply run during ITC unless it's literally the last second before wearing off. And if they own the cap, your team loses in points. If you have the cap, and you try your hardest to dodge-spam their abilities (especially shadow strike which has effectively 0 windup) you will run out of stamina, eat a daze, and die to a daily. And then the TR owns the cap, and your team will proceed to lose points.
It's not possible to explain exactly how to play/counter a TR here in forum cause it depends hardly on the situation.
I see 2 possibilities with this. You're either saying "wow, I didn't think a TR could really do that, and that would counter me." or you're saying "I just don't know what to do against a TR that actually knows how to play."
Let's keep in mind that even if you have a dedicated loadout specifically for fighting TR's, it is likely to not do anything against another class, so if there is a single rotation with backup to the TR on the node, you're effectively screwed because the TR can simply wait you out with stealth and regen and strike with advantages.
Just personal experience here, sir, but IMO when it comes to MI Sabs or Execs, I think the WK Scoundrel has actually much better chances than MI Scoundrels in that the WK now has a greatly buffed up VP that tracks through stealth. This means the WK has something that has a good chance of hitting those MIs when they are unprotected by stealth.
In my case, sir, the fight usually turns out this way. Two TRs are aware of each other, and both go into the "stealth and sweep the node area" fight. While both TRs are whizzing around there are moments where they briefly cross paths and turn visible. Usually both parties fire off their CoS attack, but Concussive allows a decisive upper hand to the Scoundrel, and during that 2.5s daze the Sabo is revealed since CC state suppresses stealth.
At that moment lands VP, and Skull Cracker is procced. The MI Sabo, 9 times out of 10, to escape further damage, uses ITC. You use that brief moment to throw a SS to refresh stealth, in all likelihood the Sabo does the same, both go back into stealth... count to 3~4, or more directly listen to the "woosh!" audio queue that indicates ITC is off. Now the Sabo is in stealth, he's got no ITC for the next 15 seconds or so, he just used his SS to re-enter stealth so his SS is also about 10 more secs away. He thinks he's safe in stealth... and BAM! VP teleport tracks through stealth, lands a very short stun for a brief pause to the guy, deals around 10~12k damage, and immediately you follow up with dazing strike.
Basically rinse and repeat, try to match your rotation so that whenever he uses ITC, you have VP to use and land. Prior to mod5, VP itself was so weak in damage, dazing strike was slow to activate, and the stuns were so short that this tactic wasn't too viable... but now it works quite reliably in my case, sir. Maybe you could give it a try?
(ps) on the other hand.. MI Scoundrels are a bane to WKs as a whole.. so I would generally avoid those, sir.
This confirms what I suspected about the the WK Scoundrel but I never tested vs players, only in PVE on the preview server. Sounds like you need perfect timing for that scenario vs a Sab to work tho? VP does expire if not used and has to be reapplied correct? So, if your timing is perfect you will land a VP on a stealthy, out of ITC Sab but if you're off, you may either lose the VP effect or hit him while he is ITC. BB also tracks them thru stealth but I find that good rogues dodge most of it anyway. How about DS, does that at-will do good damage in pvp ?
I generally don't slot SS, I like my brawling rogue setup and prefer to duke it out with people out in the open since i'm a GWF in TR skin lol..and I found out the hard way that doesn't work vs Sabs. Wonder what is the MI Scoundrel to do to catch a MI Sab, we know what the WK does. I think Ill hit the next Sab I see with Courage Breaker or I'll resort to Lurker's Assault and try to play the stealth game ( or try to escape )
Well, win or lose, as long as im havin fun its all good
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
If you're speaking about GF, just use your shield to avoid to be CC'd.
Yeah because I want to play a turtle and can hold my shield forever, beacuse that is how this work, also I can't be CCes from the sides or behind when i hold it.
/sarcasm off
If the shield is up GF can't fight back, and If you are stupid enough to use the ahift attacks, you will only get locked in the animation and die.
Play the class or stay silent, It is utterly driving me mad reading comments like your's, because you have no clue about how it works and keep spreading bull S.
How do I fight a CW?
Hold shield, gather AP, maybe a few hits, avoid being CCed, then pop the daily and try to take it down.
How do I fight a TR?
Pop my daily and I have a chance to fight back, since all they do is HAMSTER smokebomb and hits deft strike so I cant even walk out of it or daze->SE.
How do I fight in group fights?
Save guard time with the daily and I can focus some target, while all of the team are trying to CC lock me.
But it is already hard to activate it, since It can be interrupted and can't break free from CC like ITC.
Yeah because I want to play a turtle and can hold my shield forever, beacuse that is how this work, also I can't be CCes from the sides or behind when i hold it.
/sarcasm off
If the shield is up GF can't fight back, and If you are stupid enough to use the ahift attacks, you will only get locked in the animation and die.
Play the class or stay silent, It is utterly driving me mad reading comments like your's, because you have no clue about how it works and keep spreading bull S.
Not a fan of turtle style gameplay on my GF either, but since PvP is a team sport that is often one of the better ways to support your team. I also DO use the shift attacks and have never been locked into the animation. The GF's shield is a fantastic counter when well used and a tremendous frustration when misused or mistimed.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Not a fan of turtle style gameplay on my GF either, but since PvP is a team sport that is often one of the better ways to support your team. I also DO use the shift attacks and have never been locked into the animation. The GF's shield is a fantastic counter when well used and a tremendous frustration when misused or mistimed.
It sure can be used well to support the team, but then what would you do in a node pressure situation, when you are alone?
Because pressuring nodes is a part of the PvP, even on the start when you are sitting on the base, some for example TR can come at you and you have to fight back.
It might take half of your health or more before you can do your daily and stand a chance to last for a few sec longer until someone arrives/ burst their butts down.
My 2nd char I've made was a GF in mod2. So I'm playing the class way longer than you.
Sorry but your post just shows me that it's YOU who have no clue about how to play your own class.
For sure shield only protects 180°... well, I'm still able to avoid getting CCd. From front, side, behind...the trick is to move As far as I remember the cast time to hold up your shield has been reduced.
Furthermore your post sounds like: "my shield meter is empty --> game over --> I do nothing so they can kill me faster"
If you can't time your attacks with a carefully look at your shield meter, you just can't play your class!
And a TR can simply walk behind a GF stealthed, daze, and produce a dead GF.
You cannot actively block a good TR, especially in the middle of a fight against multiple opponents as your focus is on blocking the CW.
What sense would it make to turn your back to an enemy in the middle of a fight hoping to block a stealth TR?
Or how about a 1v1? Spamming bullcharge, hoping to land it on the TR, but said TR can simply use ITC, position himself properly, daze, and then follow up with a large amount of burst.
Comments
Lol it became worse ,now with contrôl and dps too .
and why giving them more distance on dodge and another dodge ...
stealth , ITC ,Smoke bomb, dodge and dodge and stealth again and dots are doing their job while every one is dazed and have no clue where the tr is , maybe he even went to take a coffe .
, i can't believe that devs did this . really , did they even tested it ?
I believe that tr player is very skillful.
But as I play wk tr or non itc tr, I really want to say:
1. Change the itc how it works, can break cc but not immune cc with itc is active.
2. Jump, most skillfully player no matter what class they are, er...except gf, they all use jump as the second dodgy machine to dodgy. I know most player will said learn to use it, which I am using it too, but is that something wrong with this? Sabotuers + itc+ jumping almost unkillable, cuz u almost even can't cc this type of tr
Sir, over these past few months I've come to think that BOTH the amount of problems the Saboteuers and Executioners are causing in PvP are generally much more amplified due to the following:
(a) crazy AP gains and AP refills through artifact/artifact equipment = daily spamming
(b) Bloodbath + Knife's Edge
(c) recent changes to Shocking Execution (a la "What the HELL were the devs thinking?")
Usually, us Whisperknives are exactly at the situation where some people want the TRs to be, we've been made viable and competent through mod5, but we have clear weaknesses and limits. However, nowadays it seems the problem has gone back to basically the MI problem, so to speak.
Basically, when the above pointers of (a), (b), and (c) are combined with the MI, the balancing/nerfs implemented by the devs, particularly the "2 second revelation", are essentially made useless.
The MI was always known for its resilience due to ITC. However, under ideal conditions, I find that the "2 second revelation" does work more or less against Saboteuers... but ONLY if the above (a), (b), and (c) were not present. The pointers, (a), (b) and (c) is simply a deus ex machina which solves all problems for the MI build. It already has good survivability, but (a), (b), and (c) also makes sure that the MI TR can simply obliterate any potential threats and dangers, before it builds up high enough to ultimately flush it out and kill it.
For example, when NOT using the above factors, I find that a certain portion of the advantages of permastealth are indeed, curbed quite a bit. Did you notice that people are starting to NOT use Gloaming Cut, sir? The conventional Sabo permastealth tactic has lost quite a lot of its punch. You can keep in stealth and force the high DPS and piercing damage, but every time you attack, now you can be retaliated.
Nowadays, sir, the MIs have mostly dumped Gloaming Cut and went back to CoS. The 2s revelation does give them too much pressure. CoS hits crazy strong, but now a stream of attacks will simply reveal you long in the process, and an enemy with a ranged CC (particulary HRs and tab-shielded CWs) can retaliate with a certain amount of success. So, naturally the frequency of attacks coming from Sabos have went down -- which means they are dealing less direct attack damage than before.
The problem is, sir, normally this should work against those TRs since they are forced to stay their attack and only throw stuff carefully. But then the above (a), (b), (c) factors come along. Currently the Sabo tactics have changed. It's not the all-out attack it used to be.
It's simply slot in ITC / DS / SS, CoS and GC(or, unslot GC and change to DF)... use DS and stealth attacks to buy time, throw in a few attacks.. and then wait for AP recharge, or Sigil of the Devoted recharge. This is EXACTLY what we've seen in some of the videos disclosed in the forums.
Sir, basically, the (a), (b), (c) factors above, are doing more than 60~70% of the work for these Sabo or Exec TRs. It doesn't matter how much pressure you are under, or how low frequency your attack is. Just dance around the node floor and buy enough time, and the AP recharge kicks in, and offers you an unmitigable mega-damage, or a high-damge 3-second invulnerability which recharges all your powers.
...basically, the most problematic, frustrating TRs to fight against in PvP are completely dependant on AP gains and dailies, sir.
thank to be honest.
The sab part is completly OP when it come to HL, BIS player, The scoundrel part is on my view much problematic when it come to lower lvl, daze time is too long, allowing too much and since the daze time is not dependent of the lvl, you can receive a way too long time of daze that allow Tr's to unleach too much damage safe.
So for me yes scoundrel daze should be lower (and maybe more dependent on the equip lvl) and for the sab part i doubt only one change would be sufficent to make it more on the other's class lvl (as i asked can you try to fight with your character without return in stealth once first strike is done) i' m pretty sure it will still remain an event match (due to other mechanism on TR'S)
Play a class other than a TR and fight one. Also, even in BiS levels, the amount of damage on a First Strike Lashing with a P. Vorpal can reach 47k on max Tenacity targets. That's more HP than some classes wear in this setup.
This is in addition to having high levels of survivability due to the fact you can't see them, and having CC immunity and 100% deflect through Impossible to Catch.
You cannot contest this information.
Ok, so then you haven't actually been fighting good ones.
Case in point. A TR will still throw out massive damage during ITC, they're not gonna try to run considering it grants CC immunity until the last second.
As in, they're stealthed, they're unable to be seen. Many of the good ones can stealth they're way up the steps in hotenow and hide by the pillar until stealth is ready again. You won't have any warning. In rivenscar, there's numerous spots by the door.
And what you also ignore is that stamina is finite, you burn all your stamina trying to dodge the lashing and then he can simply hit you with a full bloodbath since you no longer have any stamina to dodge.
Ok, and then a smart TR will just cap the node while you sit off of it, leading his team to have the advantage in points.
Once again, fight good TR's. A good one can simply use a couple of atwills or dazing at the end of stealth, pop ITC, and dodge out the stealth recharge, then they're stealth again.
And in the long run, if you don't already have the cap, that's a recipe of losing the game as the TR team constantly leeches points from the point you're neither contesting or capping.
If you're defending, as I said, a good TR will wait until a stealth recharge, walk up without you having any knowledge, and 1 hit with lashing. If you just spam dodge the entire time (even with nobody there) that simply leaves you open to dazing->daily.
Your problem Can be reverted, is a TR need
PVP Spec build
High HP pool
Tenacity
Big gear score
To one shoot or be nearly on equal ground with many player. Answer is no. This Tr won't be able to reach top pvp player but it will be on equal ground with pvp spec medium player. (on that remmeber me a TR player that claim thing are on a correct spot and TR was weak in defense so it was compensate. After he explain is build he had 25 k HP and 14 % tenacity.
The second case is PVP BIS TR that also have the upper hand again other PVP BIS class.
What to change. that is where at least i'm not sure what to do. when you are watching comment, even with those test. what is going out is mainly nerf this so the OP actual build won't be OP (like lowering AP gain equipment). I'm not sure it will solve a thing. Why because all TR's mechanism are not the OPest individually, they are on PAR with with the best class on their own field. On par with GWF CC immun, on part in DPS with all strongest solo shotting class, on part in the defensive system with GF'S (not the same way) between deflec system and stealth, on par WITh CW when it come to control on the scoundrel (maybe even better), even range attack are still exist
That also the reason i think DEV didn't already come with a solution like they did on the past with CW. because it the summ of all that make TR OP, not a single point individually and that also why the 2 second visible miserably fail
Most Tr's skills has at least have 1 sec delay, you have a chance to dodge, put on ur headset and listen. Tow of my friend, a dc and a cw always able to dodge the attack unless there are lag occur.
It also happen to me, when I fight the skilled tr, cw, hr, dc, they almost dodge my most attacks including the first hit, its also very hard land the shocking execution on them.
while doing some random queues I met this Sab on the opposing team. My Scoundrel was 16.6, he was 17.8 so not that big of a gear difference. Dude beat me every single time. ITC took care of my daze and without it the Scoundrel behaved just like I expected it to behave - badly, I survived against him as long as I did only thanks to my own itc and the dodge reflexes I seem to have developed while testing the TR. He was in stealth maybe 3x more often than me and that piercing damage off of cloud of steel hit me for around 1500 every time. So far, from my personal testing experience, the Scoundrel is the least op tree when facing other classes because he reveals himself and fights in the open. When facing another rogue the Scoundrel can beat an Exec with good dodging skills and itc but loses to a good Sab.
Should be noted he had a full Profound and i have only 2x Profound atm.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
There were quite a lot of us that warned about this on test and I think it is about as bad as we predicted.
I hate the jumping. I don't think it was intended to work that way and if it was it should drain stamina (I got called a HAMSTER and murderer and all sorts of things for suggesting that before). I think it looks stupid and is an abuse of an unintended side effect and with some people macro chain jumping I don't even see that it involves skill.
This^. I'll start bunny hopping the day I delete Neverwinter from my HD, so thats that.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Good self-control man, keep it up and don't let yourself be baited. Post dissection is the most loathsome activity on the internet and always takes things out of context. Don't fall for it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Just personal experience here, sir, but IMO when it comes to MI Sabs or Execs, I think the WK Scoundrel has actually much better chances than MI Scoundrels in that the WK now has a greatly buffed up VP that tracks through stealth. This means the WK has something that has a good chance of hitting those MIs when they are unprotected by stealth.
In my case, sir, the fight usually turns out this way. Two TRs are aware of each other, and both go into the "stealth and sweep the node area" fight. While both TRs are whizzing around there are moments where they briefly cross paths and turn visible. Usually both parties fire off their CoS attack, but Concussive allows a decisive upper hand to the Scoundrel, and during that 2.5s daze the Sabo is revealed since CC state suppresses stealth.
At that moment lands VP, and Skull Cracker is procced. The MI Sabo, 9 times out of 10, to escape further damage, uses ITC. You use that brief moment to throw a SS to refresh stealth, in all likelihood the Sabo does the same, both go back into stealth... count to 3~4, or more directly listen to the "woosh!" audio queue that indicates ITC is off. Now the Sabo is in stealth, he's got no ITC for the next 15 seconds or so, he just used his SS to re-enter stealth so his SS is also about 10 more secs away. He thinks he's safe in stealth... and BAM! VP teleport tracks through stealth, lands a very short stun for a brief pause to the guy, deals around 10~12k damage, and immediately you follow up with dazing strike.
Basically rinse and repeat, try to match your rotation so that whenever he uses ITC, you have VP to use and land. Prior to mod5, VP itself was so weak in damage, dazing strike was slow to activate, and the stuns were so short that this tactic wasn't too viable... but now it works quite reliably in my case, sir.
(ps) on the other hand.. MI Scoundrels are a bane to WKs as a whole.. so I would generally avoid those, sir.
Couple of things here.
1) I doubt your guildmates are entirely as skilled as you say they are.
2) Icewind Dale is not domination. Heck, in open world PvP, your argument holds even less water as you can be preoccupied with mining black ice and the such and a TR will have that supreme opening LB.
3) Saboteurs are capable of putting out significant damage with LB, however they're more apt to using perma daze combos and are able to stealth much more frequently. Fighting them puts your argument to rest.
Nice try, but I don't see you posting anything of how you would go about countering TR combat skills that completely shut down anything you have stated as a counter. Skilled TR's do not simply run during ITC unless it's literally the last second before wearing off. And if they own the cap, your team loses in points. If you have the cap, and you try your hardest to dodge-spam their abilities (especially shadow strike which has effectively 0 windup) you will run out of stamina, eat a daze, and die to a daily. And then the TR owns the cap, and your team will proceed to lose points.
I see 2 possibilities with this. You're either saying "wow, I didn't think a TR could really do that, and that would counter me." or you're saying "I just don't know what to do against a TR that actually knows how to play."
Let's keep in mind that even if you have a dedicated loadout specifically for fighting TR's, it is likely to not do anything against another class, so if there is a single rotation with backup to the TR on the node, you're effectively screwed because the TR can simply wait you out with stealth and regen and strike with advantages.
This confirms what I suspected about the the WK Scoundrel but I never tested vs players, only in PVE on the preview server. Sounds like you need perfect timing for that scenario vs a Sab to work tho? VP does expire if not used and has to be reapplied correct? So, if your timing is perfect you will land a VP on a stealthy, out of ITC Sab but if you're off, you may either lose the VP effect or hit him while he is ITC. BB also tracks them thru stealth but I find that good rogues dodge most of it anyway. How about DS, does that at-will do good damage in pvp ?
I generally don't slot SS, I like my brawling rogue setup and prefer to duke it out with people out in the open since i'm a GWF in TR skin lol..and I found out the hard way that doesn't work vs Sabs. Wonder what is the MI Scoundrel to do to catch a MI Sab, we know what the WK does. I think Ill hit the next Sab I see with Courage Breaker or I'll resort to Lurker's Assault and try to play the stealth game ( or try to escape
Well, win or lose, as long as im havin fun its all good
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Yeah because I want to play a turtle and can hold my shield forever, beacuse that is how this work, also I can't be CCes from the sides or behind when i hold it.
/sarcasm off
If the shield is up GF can't fight back, and If you are stupid enough to use the ahift attacks, you will only get locked in the animation and die.
Play the class or stay silent, It is utterly driving me mad reading comments like your's, because you have no clue about how it works and keep spreading bull S.
How do I fight a CW?
Hold shield, gather AP, maybe a few hits, avoid being CCed, then pop the daily and try to take it down.
How do I fight a TR?
Pop my daily and I have a chance to fight back, since all they do is HAMSTER smokebomb and hits deft strike so I cant even walk out of it or daze->SE.
How do I fight in group fights?
Save guard time with the daily and I can focus some target, while all of the team are trying to CC lock me.
But it is already hard to activate it, since It can be interrupted and can't break free from CC like ITC.
Not a fan of turtle style gameplay on my GF either, but since PvP is a team sport that is often one of the better ways to support your team. I also DO use the shift attacks and have never been locked into the animation. The GF's shield is a fantastic counter when well used and a tremendous frustration when misused or mistimed.
It sure can be used well to support the team, but then what would you do in a node pressure situation, when you are alone?
Because pressuring nodes is a part of the PvP, even on the start when you are sitting on the base, some for example TR can come at you and you have to fight back.
It might take half of your health or more before you can do your daily and stand a chance to last for a few sec longer until someone arrives/ burst their butts down.
And a TR can simply walk behind a GF stealthed, daze, and produce a dead GF.
You cannot actively block a good TR, especially in the middle of a fight against multiple opponents as your focus is on blocking the CW.
What sense would it make to turn your back to an enemy in the middle of a fight hoping to block a stealth TR?
Or how about a 1v1? Spamming bullcharge, hoping to land it on the TR, but said TR can simply use ITC, position himself properly, daze, and then follow up with a large amount of burst.