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A TR's view on PVP TR's
chestnut13
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 176 Arc User
I have been thinking about his for a while and wanted to make a fair post. I chose this venue and not the TR forum because I hope this to be objective about the state of the TR in mod 5.
I am a 17.5K Whisperknife/Sab. I've played this game for well over a year and started out quite poorly but lived and learned and am quite competent on my toon. I have no legendary gear but getting closer. This post might bring some flame from different directions but I think these things need to be said.
PVE - Mod 5 was a resounding victory in PVE for the TR. I am not spec'd specifically for PVE because I like to PVP when I have free time. Using Epic SOT as a baseline, I went from usually 3rd or 4th on paingiver with an occasional last, to 2nd or 3rd with an occasional first. To me, that's excellent and the devs did a great job there, especially giving multiple viable paths to be effective. The sad part is that the game went from not wanting a TR on a dungeon run .... to not wanting a dungeon run! Ironic that the TR is finally a welcome addition to parties ... and there are really no more parties. Much of the fun in this game was meeting new people, friending them, and running dungeons with them to improve gear and make some AD. I miss that and I think Cryptic is making a huge mistake in removing that aspect of the game as a viable source of interest and fun.
PVP - Now comes the polarizing stuff. So many posts crying about how OP the TR is. Is there truth to that? Yes and No. I am only interested in qualitative discussion and will not suggest actual specific fixes ... that is better left to other's who are more astute at individual skills/feats/powers. Let's look at the TR meta situation:
MI is still the boss TR. WK is not quite as weak a sister as before, but the higher end of PVP still favors the MI rather heavily.
Execution seems fairly well balanced. You can kill rather easily but you can also be killed. It's a high risk, high reward path. Might need some tweaking and bugs fixed but not out of line.
Sab was a problem at first but the 2 second reveal combined with stealth loss on at wills, in my opinion, has brought it back into line. Yes, there are some perma issues but frankly, the sacrifice a perma makes to be perma means he does very little damage. Suits a WK somewhat but with no ITC, he dies as well. Piercing damage is the only issue that likely causes some imbalance and that could be toned down. Clearly, other classes are adjusting much better to the sab, especially CW's.
Scoundrel. And there's the rub. In my opinion, Scoundrel is a big problem. And before I get instantly flamed by other TR's, let me explain. When I PVP, and I only single pug, and I can make a pretty good guess at my opponent's or teamates GS just from a couple minutes of play ... except for the Scoundrel TR. It makes very little difference whether the TR is 13K or 18K ... they have a very similar effect on the match. This in and of itself suggests that the path is overpowered. Gear Score should have more of an effect. A high GS toon, if played well, should dominate lower geared players, but vs. a Scoundrel TR this is not so.
Why?
The first is that the devs made the same mistake they did with GWF and the CW in previous mods ... they combined too much control with too much damage. As long as you can imobilize a target and then beat the living HAMSTER out of them while they are imobilized, then PVP will be imbalaned. In the TR's case, it allows them to use high skill/high damage at wills such as Gloaming Cut and Duelist's without actually having to have skill. I know. In previous mods, I tried to use Duelist's and I just did not have the skill level and timeing to land it effectivley. It was bloody hard. And I never worried about it being used against me except by very good TR's because I could usually dodge it.
Proof?
Sure. Just look at every PVP match you play. There are almost always 4 TR's just like there used to be 4 GWF's and 4 CW's when they were overpowered. Now I am not saying all Scoundrel's have no skill, there are many who do ... I am saying that it is far too easy to dominate game play and it seems to quite irrelevant as to how well equiped you are. This should not be. PVP is supposed to fun and challenging ... it was not fun when Roar spamming GWF's tag teamed and it wasn't fun when melt and kill CW's did the same. It's not fun now. When any one class dominates too much, two of them get together and make a mockery of matches.
I really like when there are 5 different classes in matches ... it opens up strategy and tactics much more. I am not sure if I've been in a match in this mod without 4 TR's.
I know I'll be open to flame from fellow TR's but it's how I feel. I owe a great deal to the TR community as I really sucked when I started and the class forum was a big help. I am not advocating a tremendous nerf because it's not what is required. I went through the endless nerf batting and it was depressing. The interesting thing is that through all the TR nerfing, the community always found a way to get better and keep the PVP TR viable. The stealth mechanic is powerful and the TR should and will always be a difficult foe.
What I am interested in is balanced game play and right now it's not balanced. Too many TR's dominating gameplay. I think the devs did a decent job in reworking the TR as a whole but simply fell prey to the same mistake they've made on class adjustment before .... too much control with too much damage.
I am a 17.5K Whisperknife/Sab. I've played this game for well over a year and started out quite poorly but lived and learned and am quite competent on my toon. I have no legendary gear but getting closer. This post might bring some flame from different directions but I think these things need to be said.
PVE - Mod 5 was a resounding victory in PVE for the TR. I am not spec'd specifically for PVE because I like to PVP when I have free time. Using Epic SOT as a baseline, I went from usually 3rd or 4th on paingiver with an occasional last, to 2nd or 3rd with an occasional first. To me, that's excellent and the devs did a great job there, especially giving multiple viable paths to be effective. The sad part is that the game went from not wanting a TR on a dungeon run .... to not wanting a dungeon run! Ironic that the TR is finally a welcome addition to parties ... and there are really no more parties. Much of the fun in this game was meeting new people, friending them, and running dungeons with them to improve gear and make some AD. I miss that and I think Cryptic is making a huge mistake in removing that aspect of the game as a viable source of interest and fun.
PVP - Now comes the polarizing stuff. So many posts crying about how OP the TR is. Is there truth to that? Yes and No. I am only interested in qualitative discussion and will not suggest actual specific fixes ... that is better left to other's who are more astute at individual skills/feats/powers. Let's look at the TR meta situation:
MI is still the boss TR. WK is not quite as weak a sister as before, but the higher end of PVP still favors the MI rather heavily.
Execution seems fairly well balanced. You can kill rather easily but you can also be killed. It's a high risk, high reward path. Might need some tweaking and bugs fixed but not out of line.
Sab was a problem at first but the 2 second reveal combined with stealth loss on at wills, in my opinion, has brought it back into line. Yes, there are some perma issues but frankly, the sacrifice a perma makes to be perma means he does very little damage. Suits a WK somewhat but with no ITC, he dies as well. Piercing damage is the only issue that likely causes some imbalance and that could be toned down. Clearly, other classes are adjusting much better to the sab, especially CW's.
Scoundrel. And there's the rub. In my opinion, Scoundrel is a big problem. And before I get instantly flamed by other TR's, let me explain. When I PVP, and I only single pug, and I can make a pretty good guess at my opponent's or teamates GS just from a couple minutes of play ... except for the Scoundrel TR. It makes very little difference whether the TR is 13K or 18K ... they have a very similar effect on the match. This in and of itself suggests that the path is overpowered. Gear Score should have more of an effect. A high GS toon, if played well, should dominate lower geared players, but vs. a Scoundrel TR this is not so.
Why?
The first is that the devs made the same mistake they did with GWF and the CW in previous mods ... they combined too much control with too much damage. As long as you can imobilize a target and then beat the living HAMSTER out of them while they are imobilized, then PVP will be imbalaned. In the TR's case, it allows them to use high skill/high damage at wills such as Gloaming Cut and Duelist's without actually having to have skill. I know. In previous mods, I tried to use Duelist's and I just did not have the skill level and timeing to land it effectivley. It was bloody hard. And I never worried about it being used against me except by very good TR's because I could usually dodge it.
Proof?
Sure. Just look at every PVP match you play. There are almost always 4 TR's just like there used to be 4 GWF's and 4 CW's when they were overpowered. Now I am not saying all Scoundrel's have no skill, there are many who do ... I am saying that it is far too easy to dominate game play and it seems to quite irrelevant as to how well equiped you are. This should not be. PVP is supposed to fun and challenging ... it was not fun when Roar spamming GWF's tag teamed and it wasn't fun when melt and kill CW's did the same. It's not fun now. When any one class dominates too much, two of them get together and make a mockery of matches.
I really like when there are 5 different classes in matches ... it opens up strategy and tactics much more. I am not sure if I've been in a match in this mod without 4 TR's.
I know I'll be open to flame from fellow TR's but it's how I feel. I owe a great deal to the TR community as I really sucked when I started and the class forum was a big help. I am not advocating a tremendous nerf because it's not what is required. I went through the endless nerf batting and it was depressing. The interesting thing is that through all the TR nerfing, the community always found a way to get better and keep the PVP TR viable. The stealth mechanic is powerful and the TR should and will always be a difficult foe.
What I am interested in is balanced game play and right now it's not balanced. Too many TR's dominating gameplay. I think the devs did a decent job in reworking the TR as a whole but simply fell prey to the same mistake they've made on class adjustment before .... too much control with too much damage.
Post edited by chestnut13 on
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imo the 2 sec reveal is a joke when u dont have the chance to fight back as u constantly get one shotted by 20k+gs TR or followed by smoke bomb and just get abused to death.... btw I am a 25k gs GWF with 47.5k HP and 10.5k power
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I'll nibble some on this particular piece. "High risk, high reward" ? The Exec can be near perma stealth levels with almost no effort. You know they refill stealth regardless of incoming damage right ? With a few stealth based feats and the profound armor voilà.. so the high risk part goes out the window since an Exec can use the best defence i.e. stealth way more than a Scoundrel for example. Thats just off the top of my head
PS
Here's my assessment based on personal experience playtesting a scoundrel for 2 months:
Exec - the infamous hitkill tree. Great stealth with perma potential, best burst damage in the game. This guy needs only 1 offensive encoutner to drop you and can slot Shadow Strike and ITC and you can kiss your toon's bottom goodbye. If he has an epic/leg DC artifact he can slot all defensive encounters and just troll kill you with dailies.
Sab - alot of stealth and the 2nd best damage, can troll a whole team if he wanted
Scoundrel - a ton of cc, least stealth , least burst damage. This tree can lock you down if you let it and kill you. Being "perma dazed" however is not a sure thing esp not when people avoid it. Here are some examples of actual fights:
- a CW dodges my daze and cc locks me instead, one ice knife later im wakin up by the fire with a wicked headache
- a GF Prot with KV on does nothing but hold his shield up against me so naturally I take him down after 4-5 DFs
- another GF ( not sure what tree ) remembers about VM/BC/GW and stalemates me till his mates arrive and Im forced to run since my stealth is not auto refilled
- a GWF pops Unstop and walks right thru my dazes forcing me on the defensive
- a SW catches me with a knock up and kills me before I touch down
- a HR makes me see double with all those flashing movements back and forth not to mention interrupts me very often
- a Righteous DC burns me even after Ive killed it and I fall
- a Faithfull DC simple outheals all my damage ( can only take one down if Im allowed to focus it for a good time )
- other rogues are at 50/50, depends on who catches who but ive been killed by shadow of demise procs plenty of time
Well then, are those pesky rogues OP or are we all just used to being lazy in pvp? Here's my opinion:
- piercing damage goes away
- sprint/shadow slip/guard get way more responsive as to be used as actual avoidance tools
- dazes respect tenacity or are given reduced effects on players
- stealth does not get auto refilled
Thats it then
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I would prefer different types of TRs: permastealth that doesn't deal this type of damage, full dps TRs, daze TRs
That actually makes sense. However, the timer would have to recognize the stealth mode has been activated, and then trigger to refill stealth bar only AFTER stealth mode has ended. I'm not sure if that's coding possible, or how easy it is. I am not entirely familiar with the coding used here.
I will say in defense of Scoundrel build (being one since I started my TR self in this particular game) that I have not had to change my build overall. Even with the enforced respect on new feats I was able to use 90% of the SAME BUILD I started with. Nerf me, buff me, gimme other gear..... it's been a good build overall.
I practice with the TR. I took about 3 months to level up just so I could get a good feel for the patterns of controls to use. SHIFT and TAB are my buddies! I may bounce around like a ping pong ball.
Smoke bomb..... : facepalms and groans: useless. Okay, start in on your arguments on daze and damage done if you want to, BUT it's a power most useful for soloing, not dungeons or PvP. I run right out of the area of Smoke Bomb, and recover in Stealth easy. BOOING! SHIFT button. Safe. It's better to do more damage.
It's also laggy. Stop pointing at DC with Astral Seal all the time! Smoke Bomb has crashed me off server (in the middle of a Tiamat no less), and Astral Seal never has. Ice Knife? It's fine!
You can change the smoke particle effect rising to a quick shadowing of an area into black and white instead? Madam vampire in the Well of Dragons has an area with that effect inside the purple flame boundary. It's in a specified area of Dread Ring. (Devs feel free to moan back at me if that's going to be a 3D model and coding nightmare.)
Slightly back to the subject. Anyone can Dodge. Yes, you can Dodge a TR attack. Even mine. Even if you're not a TR.
Things that could be toned down are the crit chance to reduce it to 90% of the time instead of 100% when in Stealth. Nobody's perfect. Maybe that frustrated GF threw out a banana peel? Concussive Strikes might get a SLIGHT reduction as well.
Also to the person last week that called me a "23k GS Pay to Play ______" randomly as you were standing there typing at me - I'm around 16K atm. I'll get there though, I promise. It just takes awhile to gather rank 4s and gems to refine with. Rematch?
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Great response - your mind is awesome!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Stealth is not absolute invisibility. If it is then all the cws and sws and hrs who blow holes through me while I am in stealth, from half way across the map, are using hax!
Scoundrel... I hate that tree almost enough to respec to it. Two words that irritate more than any two words together ever have in any game I've ever played: "Concussive Strikes". But as a exec tr that is why you itc when not in stealth.
The thing is, sir, people who've never used Scoundrels, or TRs in general for that matter, tend to think that TRs are actively using Concussive Strikes to keep opponents at bay whenever they want. Therefore, they tend to come up with the notion that extended dazes are possible whenever a TR wishes so.
But the problem is, sir, it's simply not true.
People saying such things are simply reading the tool-tip and thinking; "Whoa! 2.5s daze at 5s ICD? That means I can keep someone dazed 50% of the time, always!" ... so they think that any Scoundrel will simply daze, daze, daze, daze you all the time. People thinking like this, simply have this notion embedded in their heads and would refuse to listen to whatever a TR has to say in its defense, and that's what makes these discussions so difficult. They don't ever listen to what us Scoundrels say.
It's simply not true. This is really unfortunate, because if the people who say these things have a TR of their own and respec to Scoundrel, the first thing they would immediately realize is that Concussive Strikes is like a random missile fired off at the most unexpected timing. Even the TR himself does not know whether you can expect it to proc or not. It's very random, hence it's not something you can control to your combat plan -- and anyone who plays PvP with any degree of seriousness knows, you guys all know, that you yourselves would not risk your fight depending your life on maybe 30% chance.
The only times where you have control over Concucssive Strikes is when you have entered stealth, where you can be certain that CS did not proc prior to your intended attack, and you know it will proc with 100% certainty due to the 100% crit in stealth.
This means the Scoundrel can INTEND to have CS proc at the beginning of his fight, and from then every time when he enters stealth and loiters around without attacking for 5 seconds. Every move he makes in between those moments where the Scoundrel spends out of stealth, CS relies on total, random chance... and every TR knows Scoundrel is the absolutely the furthest away from any kind of stealth+restealth permatactics.
Sir, we spend more than 60~70% of our time out of stealth. This means in those 60~70% of moments, we have no control over Concussive Strikes. Us Scoundrels, ourselves, don't know if it will proc or not... and daze is a very important survival tool for Scoundrels -- hence failure to activate at the timing we want, means death for us.
What this means, sir, is that Scoundrel players actually treat Concussive Strikes as 'non-existant' in those times when we are out of stealth, because it's so unreliable. We don't include it in our plan of battle. If it procs, then yay, it's good for us. But if it doesn't, we sure won't to be killed because of it -- so it's not part of our plan.
IT'S RANDOM.
So, no, sir, us Scoundrels can't "perma-daze someone" like a layman might think.
The laymen think like this:
"ooh, ooh, every 5 seconds for 2.5 seconds... this mean you can use stuff like dazing strike... and then Concussive Strike.. and then a dazing strike.. and then Concussive Strike... this would like put someone in extended daze with only 1~2 seconds of 'wakeup time' in between! It's OP!!
To anyone who thinks like this, sir, I'd say they're welcome to try. I guarantee that someone's going to be royally disappointed, sir.
Concussive Strikes is also applied when attacking from the back regardless of crit. But overall I agree with you.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I got sirred so much there my bum hurts a little haha. Oh I am no expert and my opinion is from playing my first tr as a mi exec. Not a one shot wonder because that does not work so well for holding nodes in the end. That experience is as subjective as my experience of execs were before making a tr. Its ignorance, and I'll admit that. To someone who never played the class at all, the "one hit" kill + stealth + itc might seem to make execs gods that can appear at will and kill in a single shot then disappear again. That is as untrue as the perception of scoundrel as "permadazeyourdead".
So thanks for the enlightenment! I know it could not possibly be as easy as it looks (it looks like pob dazedazedazedaze), but it does look fun.
Waiting dan hope that mod 6 not turn into failed product
Devs shame on you
There is actually a great deal of difficulty in "hitting from the back", sir. It's actually much more difficult than one might imagine.
In theory, sir, the MI Sabos can simply turn on ITC and "wade all over" the enemy and hit him from the back with encounters with multi-charges with encounters. So a non-TR player that has never actually tried playing a melee class takes his knowledge from reading the tool-tips, and then tends to think like this;
"Hmm.. so if the TR hits from the backside with an encounter, then that refills stealth... So, that means a MI, Sabo TR and can do things like use DF from stealth, do massive damage, and then simply maneuver to the back and whack-whack with Wicked Reminder(or Impact Shot) and then he just instantly goes back to stealth! Without even using SS! That's so OP!"
...this is why people who never tried, and only think in theory, can go only so far. When one actually tries this, one would immediately realize that; (a) enemy players move a lot faster than you might think, (b) you aren't fast enough to catch up and hit someone who had (even a little) head start and starts running away, (c) some dangerous enemies always face towards you.. like GF/GWFs, and the only way to hit their backside is to jump through them, which means everytime you try, you're gonna be hit hard.
It's pretty much the same with Concussive Strikes in actual combat as well, sir. TRs aren't fast enough to outmaneuver someone to always catch his backside, so basically it becomes another 'randomness'. If you try an attack against someone, you have to pray that the target will stay like that exposing his back... and in actual combat, that's is actually a VERy RARE moment to happen, and certainly not frequent enough to 'perma-CC' someone.
People need to understand that the dazes that seems to go on really long, are actually a product of a TR that has planned the move out way before it actually happens, and succeeding. It's like planning out a really long combo move in fighting games -- the enemy must 'cooperate' with you by making all the 'right mistakes' for you. Many people still don't get this, sir.
Oh, but I do hit them from the back all the time while they are trying to run away from me
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
A luxury not so often enjoyed by Whisperknives, sir.
I tested the WK on preview and I think it can be alot stronger in a 1x1 scenario then the MI. You lose some crit/deflect and run speed, you gain an awesome, high damage, ranged gap closer/cc breaker/stun/debuff encounter to go along with deft strike. You also gain a sweet new proning Daily with a sexy feat that restored 25% stealth + increased stealth gain via damage for a certain time. For now im too used to my brawling playstyle as a MI, its way too fun for me so I wont be changing. But, WKs have more potential and that at-will can crit-tick for 50k in PVE lol
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
It's interesting you've realized and acknowledged that Vengeance's Pursuit has really changed in mod5, sir.
Not many people know that the 'teleport' part of the attack can hit for over 10k now. Good observation
Thats a long post. But not true is one aspect. You are obviously (anti)TR and that's a major difference. It makes me wonder how people will do much to destroy other class even make that class just to cry that from that class perspective it is op as well.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
After two months of testing the rogue I can say this is definitely the best stategy for my main, a GWF, to counter them. Once you become aware of a TR near you, you must go berserk. Sticking to him like a cop to a donut and attacking, attacking, attacking. Cant stress this enough esp for GFs. I've met so many of them who just sit there with shield up and let me DF them to death. On the other hand ppl who play actively actually manage to push me off a node.. But, like I said before I play a scoundrel and I tend to brawl with people in melee. A good Exec for instance wont give you the chance to fight him, he'll hit you like a truck, then do the ITC/disappearing act and let SoD finish the job...
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.