Ultimately, I think for mid to upper level group content Faithful is the most useful. The DPS from Righteousness is nice, but even at its best there are better DPS classes. The walking regen powers of Virtuous is less useful, simply due to most groups ability to self heal.
Faithful on the other hand, has the built in panic switch. That instant burst heal right at the moment you need it the most, is hard to ignore. It helps smooth over mistakes and gives you a bit of a second chance. Even groups that don't normally need healing, might hit a bit of lag, or mistime a dodge, and need to quickly be brought back from deaths door. It seems a far more useful ability, then extra regen ticks, or a slight increase party DPS.
It could be argued that if the Virtuous DC is working on layering heals on his party (multiple HoTs from different powers/feats stack) then most unpleasant scenarios would be avoided first place. Note that by turning key heals into HoTs for double the amount of healing a Virtuous DC can simply "pre-cast" heals on his party mates, and with enough stacking/foresight (along with DC/Virtuous damage shield feats) he can effectively counter damage spikes. Note that healing bonuses are retroactive - for example, if your HP falls below a certain threshold then the appropriate feats/mechanics that improve healing automatically activate, significantly improving the overall healing (and therefore, ticks) of an HoT on top of the already doubled healing amount. The difference is particularly noticeable if you "pre-cast" Bastion of Health. The Purity feat also seems to work on individual ticks, so that's another possible x2 (to each HoT tick) on top of everything. And a good Virtuous could potentially have several HoTs up at the same time, constantly. Finally, there's crits.
I have personally observed that sometimes my 11k GS DC would just suddenly heal to full (with lots of large green numbers appearing everywhere) under various conditions.
Truth be told, however, yes it might ultimately be that Faithful is superior in PvE. But the problem is that we simply don't have the content to actually test these two paragon paths to their limit, at least not yet PvE-wise (the Tiamat fight might change things). For now I think what's important is that they have distinct playstyles (one favors proactive healing/stacking HoTs+mitigation, while the other favors reactive but really bursty healing).
Happy to have helped.
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totenkopf77Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 32Arc User
Truth be told, however, yes it might ultimately be that Faithful is superior in PvE. But the problem is that we simply don't have the content to actually test these two paragon paths to their limit, at least not yet PvE-wise (the Tiamat fight might change things). For now I think what's important is that they have distinct playstyles (one favors proactive healing/stacking HoTs+mitigation, while the other favors reactive but really bursty healing).
Happy to have helped.
The content to stress test builds does exist and is readily available for all. The answer is not whether Virt or Faithful is better at PVE as that will be completely subjective to the goal in PVE. The answer is what build suits someones' goal or playstyle. Stress testing Virt and Faithful to their limits can be done quickly by soloing a major HE such as the Black Ice encounter or even the Bear one without Black Ice gear on. Each DC will need a different number of adversaries to "break" their healing limit but even a BIS in every slot DC can get enough aggro to die in the HEs. If you want to try outlasting a Faithful build on your Virt build I will go with you on preview if you like .
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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totenkopf77Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 32Arc User
I use whats' available. If you recall there was a bug that made DCs immune to all damage while in AShield...Black Ice damage was the only damage that could penetrate it therefore testing in IWD made the most sense, not to mention the HEs in WoD are mostly too weak to stress any build really. SockMunkeys' assessment is spot on as high end groups don't truly need the healing style Virt brings to the table. However, for people seeking specific playstyles due to RP/ had one in PnP etc. type reasons, Virt with the correct rotation should on paper and in game deliver the most group healing if that is your goal. Virt is capable of higher than Care Bear content in the solo department but so is Righteous which kills much faster so someone only messing about with dailies would prolly prefer it. Anyways, people did test this stuff and there are some very clear strengths/ weaknesses to each path.
I disagree with your and sockmunkey's opinion about Virtuous.
I also did some tests in preview using my own main DC this time, and the results are as I expected. Although I find the standards of your test odd, I do find it very useful for gauging just how well each paragon path reacted to potential burst damage/constant damage. Encounter powers used were Divine Glow, Healing Word and Bastion of Health (Healer's Lore and Foresight as class features). When testing Virtuous I skipped the paragon-related power and Urgent Prayers. When testing Faithful I skipped Divine Intervention/Shared Burdens and took Benefit of Foresight. I tested this on the Bear Clan Invasion HE, simply because the mobs there were strong enough to easily bring my DC down to 30% or so without actually killing him (I tried Raid the Raiders my DC was dying too fast for either Virtuous and Faithful to be of much help). Dodging was allowed to avoid CC-attacks, otherwise I kited normally.
The results were straightforward. With Faithful my health occasionally went down to 40% (burst damage/constant stream of damage) and then go back to full again. As long as I was kiting/healing (to power up the feats) I was fine. This tells me that I was taking critical damage every once in a while.
Virtuous was different. My HP would never go below 90% once all my HoTs were up. With all three encounter HoTs up I could basically just stand there taking damage and my HP wouldn't budge - "layering" or "pre-casting" heals is key to playing Virtuous. There are a total of 5 HoTs doing most of the work (Shield of the Divine, Cleansing Fire, Divine Glow, Healing Word, Bastion of Health) and you can reliably have 3-4 active at most times. This tells me that, regardless of which spec can potentially out-survive the other, Virtuous is quite capable of keeping up with Faithful in dealing with burst damage. In the case of Virtuous, there is simply a constant massive stream of mitigation in the form of layered HoTs.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
Ultimately, I think for mid to upper level group content Faithful is the most useful. The DPS from Righteousness is nice, but even at its best there are better DPS classes. The walking regen powers of Virtuous is less useful, simply due to most groups ability to self heal.
Faithful on the other hand, has the built in panic switch. That instant burst heal right at the moment you need it the most, is hard to ignore. It helps smooth over mistakes and gives you a bit of a second chance. Even groups that don't normally need healing, might hit a bit of lag, or mistime a dodge, and need to quickly be brought back from deaths door. It seems a far more useful ability, then extra regen ticks, or a slight increase party DPS.
You know, that personal dps should not be what you look at, but group dps. If you look at a bossfight, you will have 3 HP debuffs and dot 20% party dmg buff up all the time. Throw in divine glow, PoD, break the spirit, holy ground etc. and you will have a dmg buff btw. 50% up to 100%+.
Combine this with your own decent damage and rightious DCs are dd number one in dungeons.
I like to think Virtuous is about reducing incoming damage/added protection as well a constant supply of heal over time effects from feat buffs and spells. Feats that offer effects like reducing a flat amount of damage while under a HoT effect, the heal over time proc on encounter powers and the capstone that provides a HoT when someone takes damage I find make the Virtuous DC quite a flexible and varied class that can combine healing and an offensive role quite well.
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totenkopf77Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 32Arc User
I disagree with your and sockmunkey's opinion about Virtuous.
Yes, that is clear. I have faith you will figure it out one day . If you would like to test things, I know you post in Legit so feel free to hit me up.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2014
With my new build (still Virtuous) early this morning (or late last night), I rarely even needed to dodge things in WoD (I still did dodge things though, for the most part) and tanked even 3-5 man HE's solo with no problems. I rarely even dropped below 75% health and when I did, the next blink I was full again with temporary hitpoints to boot. As long as the main mob I was attacking at the time was Sealed, any damage I took was instantly HoT regened and Healed by Seal. Everything I did, in some fashion, triggered me healing myself or buffing me with a delayed/situational call heal.
I'll post my choices later after my afternoon appointments, as I did change some feats up and even went with a few more points in strength.
So it seem the value of Virtuous path is the real debate here.
I think it's a great path, it really does look awesome on paper, but in my personal play experience isn't panning out that way for me: it just takes way too long to kill anything, which OP Zeb even described in detail. This is why (for ME) The Virtuous path is epic suckage; because I measure my enjoyment not only by whatever is challenging but also by *how long it takes* to complete a mob encounter.
Virtuous just plain takes me too long. And for this reason *I* don't like it. But the OP and others seem to like this aspect, or at least tolerate it for the other benefits the tree offers.
Isn't the whole reason for having separate paragon paths and trees to begin with is to allow us, the player, to choose what we want based on how it plays? Because of this none of the three trees or paragon-specific powers/feats/features are the best or the worst.
I think this is the point for separate trees, etc.
Zebular and I and pretty much everyone else wants to find the right tree that will give us the most enjoyment *based on our play style*. Hence: Virtuous sounds like it'll keep Zeb and others pretty happy. My disliking it does't mean it sucks for anyone else but me. So I guess I just don't understand some debates about things like this (and in any thread in the entire forums, sometimes) - because it's all about personal preferences and what we each hold to be of value to ourselves.
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2014
I also tested out a crit righteous build of her as well on preview. She could kill things much faster but the deal breaker was I was relying on potions to stay alive. I can see the potential for a good righteous and virtuous path mix too, but that would sacrifice the last point of either tree and last tier of one of the trees.
Now fully Virtuous, I really liked the self-sustainable regeneration now though since I've went full virtuous with just a tad more strength to add that little bit more damage.
Here's my newest and current spec: (click image to open full size)
For anyone thinking of using this as a build, I'd first advise against it, then remind you to keep in mind: This build is tailored for a playstyle that is, for the most part, reflective of how I imagine Daxx would be in this iteration of the Realms. For she is an NPC adaptation from my PnP Campaign, as most all my characters in Neverwinter are.
Solo Play Build, PvE
Power Setup & Rotation
Powers
At-Wills - Sacred Flame and Astral Seal
Encounters - Daunting Light, Sunburst, Divine Glow
Dailies - Hallowed Ground and Flamestrike
Features - Terrifying Insight and Foresight
Power Usage Opener: Astral Seal Constant: Sacred Flame 1 2 Rotation: 1) Divine Glow / 2) Daunting Light As needed: Sunburst / Astral Seal / Hallowed Ground Finishers: Flamestrike / Divine Daunting Light / Divine Sunburst followed by Normal Sunburst "Oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" Moments: Flamestrike / Normal Sunburst then Divine Sunburst, or vice versa / Dash the nine hells out then start rotation over
Usage Example
Basically, what I do is I seal as much as I can until something is in melee range of hitting me. Once all sealed or something is in melee range of hitting me, I'll dash or run to any ranged mobs and plop down a Divine Glow (preferably in Divine Mode first and then again in normal) as soon as any meeles get back in the aoe area.
I pick one mob, and that one mob gets all my Sacred Flames until dead, or I need to switch for whatever reason, to another mob.(Note: if my new target is not Sealed, I'll Seal it!) I'll then continue the rotation with, Daunting Light -- all while holding down Sacred Flame, so I am always Sacred Flaming while on cooldowns. I'll toss in Divine Mode Daunting Lights on a whim, but once I get a better feel for when I am in Empowered, I'll probably be more sparring, and use my Empowered states on HoTs instead.
When the Sealed one looses its seal, I'll re-seal it and if I still have more than 3 mobs on me, I'll seal a couple more that are within melee range of me. I'll then continue on again as described above until all dead. I've only needed Hallowed Ground for soloing 1-5 man HEs and the Lair Boss fights. Otherwise, I cast Flamestrike as needed, using my Cleric Artifact whenever it is off cooldown. If I am full on AP when it's off cooldown, I'll use whatever daily would be best at that time, then use my Cleric Artifact. I also keep a Lathander's Dew on me at all times when Questing or Delving, as well as quaff Power, Rec, and Crit potions on a whim (as I have tons).
The Pros & Cons
Pros
I can tank any non-Dragon mob groups in Well of Dragons.
Self healing, constant regeneration while in battle (as long as the mob you're attacking is sealed, you'll really notice it), as well as nice damage mitigation. (from Boons & Feats)
Reliable (yet not a lot) damage, but does increase with every hit, to a cap (Terrifying Insight). enough for me to make up for less crit.
Group play provides nearly same amount of Healing over Time to party members, as well as Foresight bonuses. Power set up allows one to help others on the fly without changing powers. If needed, I swap Daunting Light with Astral Shield when in a group (Delve, Skirmish, etc). Solo or when briefly helping others (WoD, IWD, etc).
With the Stamina Boon, Stamina regenerates very fast, so if I do find the absolute need or that "oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" moment to dash, stamina is usually available to do so. I use it when I need it and if things go bad, I can dash almost as fast as a triple-porting wizard.
I Save Sunburst! It interrupts a lot of Mob's castings and aoe attacks, and is a great "By the GODS!" life saver. Especially when used first in Divine mode then immediately again in normal mode, or vice versa.
Cons
It takes a long time to kill anything but trash mobs, compared to any other typical class build.
Low Strength & Base Crit % means much less damage than average builds.
Low Base Crit % means less crit heals. However, her HoTs are bountiful.
Without her Ioun Stone of Allure all leveled and decked out, her Armor Pen is only in the 500's.
Again, this build has been tailored for my specific playstyle and I can see how a great majority of people may not like to play the way I play Daxx. This is not how I play all my clerics. Just Daxx. Giggidy.Always test a build out first on Preview!
I also tested out a crit righteous build of her as well on preview. She could kill things much faster but the deal breaker was I was relying on potions to stay alive.
I run a (mostly) Righteous build and have no trouble staying alive, but I think the HUGE difference in my case is about 8-9k more hitpoints than Daxx. It means my DC can soak a lot more damage before she gets into trouble, if things get to that stage.
I'm glad you're finding something that you're happy playing. That's what matters.
Here's my newest and current spec: (click image to open full size)
Out of interest what was the decision behind going with Domain Synergy and Initiate of the Faith? I've not read good things about either from Kaelac's guide. Totally your choice of course.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
I also tested out a crit righteous build of her as well on preview. She could kill things much faster but the deal breaker was I was relying on potions to stay alive. I can see the potential for a good righteous and virtuous path mix too, but that would sacrifice the last point of either tree and last tier of one of the trees.
Now fully Virtuous, I really liked the self-sustainable regeneration now though since I've went full virtuous with just a tad more strength to add that little bit more damage.
Here's my newest and current spec: (click image to open full size)
For anyone thinking of using this as a build, I'd first advise against it, then remind you to keep in mind: This build is tailored for a playstyle that is, for the most part, reflective of how I imagine Daxx would be in this iteration of the Realms. For she is an NPC adaptation from my PnP Campaign, as most all my characters in Neverwinter are.
Solo Play Build, PvE
Power Setup & Rotation
Powers
At-Wills - Sacred Flame and Astral Seal
Encounters - Daunting Light, Sunburst, Divine Glow
Dailies - Hallowed Ground and Flamestrike
Features - Terrifying Insight and Foresight
Power Usage Opener: Astral Seal Constant: Sacred Flame 1 2 Rotation: 1) Divine Glow / 2) Daunting Light As needed: Sunburst / Astral Seal / Hallowed Ground Finishers: Flamestrike / Divine Daunting Light / Divine Sunburst followed by Normal Sunburst "Oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" Moments: Flamestrike / Normal Sunburst then Divine Sunburst, or vice versa / Dash the nine hells out then start rotation over
Usage Example
Basically, what I do is I seal as much as I can until something is in melee range of hitting me. Once all sealed or something is in melee range of hitting me, I'll dash or run to any ranged mobs and plop down a Divine Glow (preferably in Divine Mode first and then again in normal) as soon as any meeles get back in the aoe area.
I pick one mob, and that one mob gets all my Sacred Flames until dead, or I need to switch for whatever reason, to another mob.(Note: if my new target is not Sealed, I'll Seal it!) I'll then continue the rotation with, Daunting Light -- all while holding down Sacred Flame, so I am always Sacred Flaming while on cooldowns. I'll toss in Divine Mode Daunting Lights on a whim, but once I get a better feel for when I am in Empowered, I'll probably be more sparring, and use my Empowered states on HoTs instead.
When the Sealed one looses its seal, I'll re-seal it and if I still have more than 3 mobs on me, I'll seal a couple more that are within melee range of me. I'll then continue on again as described above until all dead. I've only needed Hallowed Ground for soloing 1-5 man HEs and the Lair Boss fights. Otherwise, I cast Flamestrike as needed, using my Cleric Artifact whenever it is off cooldown. If I am full on AP when it's off cooldown, I'll use whatever daily would be best at that time, then use my Cleric Artifact. I also keep a Lathander's Dew on me at all times when Questing or Delving, as well as quaff Power, Rec, and Crit potions on a whim (as I have tons).
The Pros & Cons
Pros
I can tank any non-Dragon mob groups in Well of Dragons.
Self healing, constant regeneration while in battle (as long as the mob you're attacking is sealed, you'll really notice it), as well as nice damage mitigation. (from Boons & Feats)
Reliable (yet not a lot) damage, but does increase with every hit, to a cap (Terrifying Insight). enough for me to make up for less crit.
Group play provides nearly same amount of Healing over Time to party members, as well as Foresight bonuses. Power set up allows one to help others on the fly without changing powers. If needed, I swap Daunting Light with Astral Shield when in a group (Delve, Skirmish, etc). Solo or when briefly helping others (WoD, IWD, etc).
With the Stamina Boon, Stamina regenerates very fast, so if I do find the absolute need or that "oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" moment to dash, stamina is usually available to do so. I use it when I need it and if things go bad, I can dash almost as fast as a triple-porting wizard.
I Save Sunburst! It interrupts a lot of Mob's castings and aoe attacks, and is a great "By the GODS!" life saver. Especially when used first in Divine mode then immediately again in normal mode, or vice versa.
Cons
It takes a long time to kill anything but trash mobs, compared to any other typical class build.
Low Strength & Base Crit % means much less damage than average builds.
Low Base Crit % means less crit heals. However, her HoTs are bountiful.
Without her Ioun Stone of Allure all leveled and decked out, her Armor Pen is only in the 500's.
Again, this build has been tailored for my specific playstyle and I can see how a great majority of people may not like to play the way I play Daxx. This is not how I play all my clerics. Just Daxx. Giggidy.Always test a build out first on Preview!
An update to that build, I chose the first top boon in the IWD campaign, Weathering the Storm, just the other day to give her even more survivability when she's not able to get out of AOEs (which is rare). That's the only difference to how she is now and that posted build, that I can recall off hand. I'm still working on getting her ToD and IWD missing boons and not sure what I will take at this time, as I had always made decisions on her boons based on what she needed to improve upon on the time of it unlocking and to decide then if that choice fit her background history/lore. Now that she's back in working order, I will continue that tradition with her.
Once I finish the next Campaign Boons, I'll update the build pic and any pertinents. I may make a guide thread specifically for her build someday too. For now, I still welcome any advice and feedback on her, indeed!
Since Alpha, my main DC has been full Faithful tree. She had been able to handle any solo content with no real issues, unless I do not pay attention. Now with the new changes, I did not like the looks of all the regen effects in the new Faithful tree that seemed to be good mostly only in groups, so I went Virtuous with her.
My problem arose the moment I tried to fight a Torturer group in WoD. It literally took me 3+ minutes to kill them, all while I was struggling to stay alive. I was using Healing Word, Astral Shield, and Divine Glow as my Encounters with Sacred Flame and Astral Seal as my At-Wills, and Hammer of Fate and Hallowed Ground as my Dailies.
I realized how even more underperforming I was as an obviously specced Righteous cleric came in and helped me by one to two shotting all the mobs for me, to save my butt. They did this not once, not twice, but on three separate mob fights. Where I was struggling to even dent mobs, they were able to kill them in one or two hits. Not that this wasn't appreciated, it was! Greatly! (I was about to have a rage-quit moment)
So, my question is, if I want to be viable as both a Soloing Cleric and a Group Healer, with little focus on DPS (as I have a combat cleric already), what should I do? What feats and paragon paths should I choose? I do not want to make her Anointed Champion, as I have one already at 60. I'd like to keep her Divine Oracle. She's decked out in full T2 Miracle Healer gear and has nearly 14k GS. In the past, she's been an asset to Epic Delve group play as well as able to hold her own in any solo content. I'd like to rebuild her to be similar, just without going full DPS.
Thanks in advance!
Go nuts!
******************
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
It's my very first post here, I was looking for "virtuous x faithful" threads before posting a new one. I read everything here, but I'm still in doubt... I'm about to change my cleric's race (human 3 feats seens not worth a +2 stat, I guess) and I don't know what to do.
Until now, my cleric is a virtuous annointed champion (I began after the mod 5), but I didn't like this paragon, in my opinion blessing of battle was the only power that worth, especially feated, but I think it can't beat foresight, that seens awesome - also especially feated.
So, I'm pretty sure about paragon: I want to respec to divine oracle, but what about feats? I like the virtuous tree, everyone around me always has a HoT effect - wich seens to be great to proc foresight on my allies, but tier 4 feats are weaker than faithful (I guess) and sometimes don't have any spike heal pisses me off (kind the tank is dying, but sorry, I only hope my HoTs could do something, because I can't =P).
In the other hand, faithful doesn't have any HoT and it seens I always must have some healing on encounters, or otherwise it can't proc the capstone (in virtuous, sometimes I run without healings and there is no problem because of the feats, especially the capstone, heals me and allies over time).
So guys, what do you think?
By the way, sorry for my poor english, it's not my first language.
It's my very first post here, I was looking for "virtuous x faithful" threads before posting a new one. I read everything here, but I'm still in doubt... I'm about to change my cleric's race (human 3 feats seens not worth a +2 stat, I guess) and I don't know what to do.
Until now, my cleric is a virtuous annointed champion (I began after the mod 5), but I didn't like this paragon, in my opinion blessing of battle was the only power that worth, especially feated, but I think it can't beat foresight, that seens awesome - also especially feated.
So, I'm pretty sure about paragon: I want to respec to divine oracle, but what about feats? I like the virtuous tree, everyone around me always has a HoT effect - wich seens to be great to proc foresight on my allies, but tier 4 feats are weaker than faithful (I guess) and sometimes don't have any spike heal pisses me off (kind the tank is dying, but sorry, I only hope my HoTs could do something, because I can't =P).
In the other hand, faithful doesn't have any HoT and it seens I always must have some healing on encounters, or otherwise it can't proc the capstone (in virtuous, sometimes I run without healings and there is no problem because of the feats, especially the capstone, heals me and allies over time).
So guys, what do you think?
By the way, sorry for my poor english, it's not my first language.
Just a helpful hint, Virt do have a way to spike heals. BoH, divine mode is a pretty nice spike heal if you have you 3 divines. For pve Virt in my opinion is by far superior then Faith. Faith is awsome in pvp. I ran in virt mode for awhile b4 I started getting into PVP. I can clearly see a difference in both.
Just a helpful hint, Virt do have a way to spike heals. BoH, divine mode is a pretty nice spike heal if you have you 3 divines. For pve Virt in my opinion is by far superior then Faith. Faith is awsome in pvp. I ran in virt mode for awhile b4 I started getting into PVP. I can clearly see a difference in both.
I knew about empowered BoH, but in the description of shield of the divine it says "... healing word, bastion of health and divine glow no long directly heal allies..." then I didn't try, just thought it would be a HoT. Tthank you very much for the hint, I'm pretty sure I'll keep virtuous now. =]
Just a last advice, what do you think about this build:
Comments
Faithful on the other hand, has the built in panic switch. That instant burst heal right at the moment you need it the most, is hard to ignore. It helps smooth over mistakes and gives you a bit of a second chance. Even groups that don't normally need healing, might hit a bit of lag, or mistime a dodge, and need to quickly be brought back from deaths door. It seems a far more useful ability, then extra regen ticks, or a slight increase party DPS.
I have personally observed that sometimes my 11k GS DC would just suddenly heal to full (with lots of large green numbers appearing everywhere) under various conditions.
Truth be told, however, yes it might ultimately be that Faithful is superior in PvE. But the problem is that we simply don't have the content to actually test these two paragon paths to their limit, at least not yet PvE-wise (the Tiamat fight might change things). For now I think what's important is that they have distinct playstyles (one favors proactive healing/stacking HoTs+mitigation, while the other favors reactive but really bursty healing).
Happy to have helped.
The content to stress test builds does exist and is readily available for all. The answer is not whether Virt or Faithful is better at PVE as that will be completely subjective to the goal in PVE. The answer is what build suits someones' goal or playstyle. Stress testing Virt and Faithful to their limits can be done quickly by soloing a major HE such as the Black Ice encounter or even the Bear one without Black Ice gear on. Each DC will need a different number of adversaries to "break" their healing limit but even a BIS in every slot DC can get enough aggro to die in the HEs. If you want to try outlasting a Faithful build on your Virt build I will go with you on preview if you like
I use whats' available. If you recall there was a bug that made DCs immune to all damage while in AShield...Black Ice damage was the only damage that could penetrate it therefore testing in IWD made the most sense, not to mention the HEs in WoD are mostly too weak to stress any build really. SockMunkeys' assessment is spot on as high end groups don't truly need the healing style Virt brings to the table. However, for people seeking specific playstyles due to RP/ had one in PnP etc. type reasons, Virt with the correct rotation should on paper and in game deliver the most group healing if that is your goal. Virt is capable of higher than Care Bear content in the solo department but so is Righteous which kills much faster so someone only messing about with dailies would prolly prefer it. Anyways, people did test this stuff and there are some very clear strengths/ weaknesses to each path.
I also did some tests in preview using my own main DC this time, and the results are as I expected. Although I find the standards of your test odd, I do find it very useful for gauging just how well each paragon path reacted to potential burst damage/constant damage. Encounter powers used were Divine Glow, Healing Word and Bastion of Health (Healer's Lore and Foresight as class features). When testing Virtuous I skipped the paragon-related power and Urgent Prayers. When testing Faithful I skipped Divine Intervention/Shared Burdens and took Benefit of Foresight. I tested this on the Bear Clan Invasion HE, simply because the mobs there were strong enough to easily bring my DC down to 30% or so without actually killing him (I tried Raid the Raiders my DC was dying too fast for either Virtuous and Faithful to be of much help). Dodging was allowed to avoid CC-attacks, otherwise I kited normally.
The results were straightforward. With Faithful my health occasionally went down to 40% (burst damage/constant stream of damage) and then go back to full again. As long as I was kiting/healing (to power up the feats) I was fine. This tells me that I was taking critical damage every once in a while.
Virtuous was different. My HP would never go below 90% once all my HoTs were up. With all three encounter HoTs up I could basically just stand there taking damage and my HP wouldn't budge - "layering" or "pre-casting" heals is key to playing Virtuous. There are a total of 5 HoTs doing most of the work (Shield of the Divine, Cleansing Fire, Divine Glow, Healing Word, Bastion of Health) and you can reliably have 3-4 active at most times. This tells me that, regardless of which spec can potentially out-survive the other, Virtuous is quite capable of keeping up with Faithful in dealing with burst damage. In the case of Virtuous, there is simply a constant massive stream of mitigation in the form of layered HoTs.
You know, that personal dps should not be what you look at, but group dps. If you look at a bossfight, you will have 3 HP debuffs and dot 20% party dmg buff up all the time. Throw in divine glow, PoD, break the spirit, holy ground etc. and you will have a dmg buff btw. 50% up to 100%+.
Combine this with your own decent damage and rightious DCs are dd number one in dungeons.
Yes, that is clear. I have faith you will figure it out one day
I'll post my choices later after my afternoon appointments, as I did change some feats up and even went with a few more points in strength.
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I think it's a great path, it really does look awesome on paper, but in my personal play experience isn't panning out that way for me: it just takes way too long to kill anything, which OP Zeb even described in detail. This is why (for ME) The Virtuous path is epic suckage; because I measure my enjoyment not only by whatever is challenging but also by *how long it takes* to complete a mob encounter.
Virtuous just plain takes me too long. And for this reason *I* don't like it. But the OP and others seem to like this aspect, or at least tolerate it for the other benefits the tree offers.
Isn't the whole reason for having separate paragon paths and trees to begin with is to allow us, the player, to choose what we want based on how it plays? Because of this none of the three trees or paragon-specific powers/feats/features are the best or the worst.
I think this is the point for separate trees, etc.
Zebular and I and pretty much everyone else wants to find the right tree that will give us the most enjoyment *based on our play style*. Hence: Virtuous sounds like it'll keep Zeb and others pretty happy. My disliking it does't mean it sucks for anyone else but me. So I guess I just don't understand some debates about things like this (and in any thread in the entire forums, sometimes) - because it's all about personal preferences and what we each hold to be of value to ourselves.
Now fully Virtuous, I really liked the self-sustainable regeneration now though since I've went full virtuous with just a tad more strength to add that little bit more damage.
Here's my newest and current spec: (click image to open full size)
For anyone thinking of using this as a build, I'd first advise against it, then remind you to keep in mind: This build is tailored for a playstyle that is, for the most part, reflective of how I imagine Daxx would be in this iteration of the Realms. For she is an NPC adaptation from my PnP Campaign, as most all my characters in Neverwinter are.
Solo Play Build, PvE
Power Setup & Rotation
Powers
At-Wills - Sacred Flame and Astral Seal
Encounters - Daunting Light, Sunburst, Divine Glow
Dailies - Hallowed Ground and Flamestrike
Features - Terrifying Insight and Foresight
Power Usage
Opener: Astral Seal
Constant: Sacred Flame
1 2 Rotation: 1) Divine Glow / 2) Daunting Light
As needed: Sunburst / Astral Seal / Hallowed Ground
Finishers: Flamestrike / Divine Daunting Light / Divine Sunburst followed by Normal Sunburst
"Oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" Moments: Flamestrike / Normal Sunburst then Divine Sunburst, or vice versa / Dash the nine hells out then start rotation over
Usage Example
Basically, what I do is I seal as much as I can until something is in melee range of hitting me. Once all sealed or something is in melee range of hitting me, I'll dash or run to any ranged mobs and plop down a Divine Glow (preferably in Divine Mode first and then again in normal) as soon as any meeles get back in the aoe area.
I pick one mob, and that one mob gets all my Sacred Flames until dead, or I need to switch for whatever reason, to another mob.(Note: if my new target is not Sealed, I'll Seal it!) I'll then continue the rotation with, Daunting Light -- all while holding down Sacred Flame, so I am always Sacred Flaming while on cooldowns. I'll toss in Divine Mode Daunting Lights on a whim, but once I get a better feel for when I am in Empowered, I'll probably be more sparring, and use my Empowered states on HoTs instead.
When the Sealed one looses its seal, I'll re-seal it and if I still have more than 3 mobs on me, I'll seal a couple more that are within melee range of me. I'll then continue on again as described above until all dead. I've only needed Hallowed Ground for soloing 1-5 man HEs and the Lair Boss fights. Otherwise, I cast Flamestrike as needed, using my Cleric Artifact whenever it is off cooldown. If I am full on AP when it's off cooldown, I'll use whatever daily would be best at that time, then use my Cleric Artifact. I also keep a Lathander's Dew on me at all times when Questing or Delving, as well as quaff Power, Rec, and Crit potions on a whim (as I have tons).
The Pros & Cons
Pros
Cons
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I run a (mostly) Righteous build and have no trouble staying alive, but I think the HUGE difference in my case is about 8-9k more hitpoints than Daxx. It means my DC can soak a lot more damage before she gets into trouble, if things get to that stage.
I'm glad you're finding something that you're happy playing. That's what matters.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Out of interest what was the decision behind going with Domain Synergy and Initiate of the Faith? I've not read good things about either from Kaelac's guide. Totally your choice of course.
Once I finish the next Campaign Boons, I'll update the build pic and any pertinents. I may make a guide thread specifically for her build someday too. For now, I still welcome any advice and feedback on her, indeed!
Thanks again all!
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Go nuts!
******************
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
It's my very first post here, I was looking for "virtuous x faithful" threads before posting a new one. I read everything here, but I'm still in doubt... I'm about to change my cleric's race (human 3 feats seens not worth a +2 stat, I guess) and I don't know what to do.
Until now, my cleric is a virtuous annointed champion (I began after the mod 5), but I didn't like this paragon, in my opinion blessing of battle was the only power that worth, especially feated, but I think it can't beat foresight, that seens awesome - also especially feated.
So, I'm pretty sure about paragon: I want to respec to divine oracle, but what about feats? I like the virtuous tree, everyone around me always has a HoT effect - wich seens to be great to proc foresight on my allies, but tier 4 feats are weaker than faithful (I guess) and sometimes don't have any spike heal pisses me off (kind the tank is dying, but sorry, I only hope my HoTs could do something, because I can't =P).
In the other hand, faithful doesn't have any HoT and it seens I always must have some healing on encounters, or otherwise it can't proc the capstone (in virtuous, sometimes I run without healings and there is no problem because of the feats, especially the capstone, heals me and allies over time).
So guys, what do you think?
By the way, sorry for my poor english, it's not my first language.
Just a helpful hint, Virt do have a way to spike heals. BoH, divine mode is a pretty nice spike heal if you have you 3 divines. For pve Virt in my opinion is by far superior then Faith. Faith is awsome in pvp. I ran in virt mode for awhile b4 I started getting into PVP. I can clearly see a difference in both.
I knew about empowered BoH, but in the description of shield of the divine it says "... healing word, bastion of health and divine glow no long directly heal allies..." then I didn't try, just thought it would be a HoT. Tthank you very much for the hint, I'm pretty sure I'll keep virtuous now. =]
Just a last advice, what do you think about this build:
http://nwcalc.com/dc?b=ne6:27sim4:1zx56o,13l3314:15u0y7:155000:100000&h=0&p=dvo