I have read around and seen people claiming that the damage bonus from Destroyer's Purpose is not working and not giving us 50% damage bonus as it should. I have also read that somehow an IV GWF can crit on IBS for 100k whereas a SM GWF with same stats can only crit for 50k.
Do you have any comments regarding these statements?
I tested hybrid build with Intimidation and I felt it was very weak, I mean, it does a good burst dmg and it's great for groups where you go around and burst everything in max 2 seconds but fighting Heralds, Tiamat's heads or single target enemies like in ESoT or ELoL I prefer Destroyer. Destroyer isn't ONLY about high crit dmg like IBS/Crescendo going for 500k 600k+ each, etc it is about using the At-Wills properly and this is something that Sentinel lacks.
Can you reach 100k+ Sure Strikes using Intimidation build?
Also, IBS isn't really "buffed" by CaGI, it has his own flat damage which is added to IBS or any other attack, I mean that doesn't matter what attack you use, CaGI will always do the same dmg so when people use it in order to "buff" IBS is a wrong concept. Using an attack after CaGI will show the dmg done + CaGI in the same number, that's why people think that the dmg done by using IBS after CaGI looks higher but instead if you use a different encounter or even an At-Will, the CaGI's flat damage will do the same as if you used it with IBS.
Ofc you are right Laz. I dont know why he was asking in your topic, but i saw that info with 100k IBS in different topic and it was about PvP hit. So my answer was also connected to PvP build which can do that. It has nothing to do with any PvE build.
[SIGPIC]Hellsing[/SIGPIC]
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited December 2014
Oh well, I just took the opportunity to bring some differences between this build and hybrid/intimidation because a lot of ppl have been asking me in-game about which one is better, hopefully some players will read about this. He has asked a lot in this guide about PvE I'm surprised that question was related to PvP, there's no point asking about PvP here.
Jhozam, DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
Hi
Thank you for such an amazing guide!
Thanks to it I'm always top 3 in damage.
Despite the fact that i lack many things like enchants/runes rank 10, the right companions, the need of a retraining for some feats/boons and of course the infamous legendary rank in artifact equipment.
I will only add your Armor Kits to the guide which i happen to see when you were in game +300power, +5% damage against dragons.
With this playstyle I don't run for my life anymore haha
Great job!
Both sets should be very similar at that lvl but seems like AoW is still superior not only because it does increase our Power but Recovery as well, using Fabled means we will have a very low rec and that's something that I really don't like, even 1s less in my encounters means a lot. I will do some tests and I'll post my results asap. Thanks a lot for asking.
Hi
Thank you for such an amazing guide!
Thanks to it I'm always top 3 in damage.
Despite the fact that i lack many things like enchants/runes rank 10, the right companions, the need of a retraining for some feats/boons and of course the infamous legendary rank in artifact equipment.
I will only add your Armor Kits to the guide which i happen to see when you were in game +300power, +5% damage against dragons.
With this playstyle I don't run for my life anymore haha
Great job!
Hey man, thank you very much! Gear doesn't really matter at all in this guide, it's all about knowing the mechanic and stats in the character, meanwhile you will be upgrading your gear step by step, thanks for letting me know that your having fun using this build.
I would advise +400 power using the reinforcement kits, that +5% dmg against Dragons came with the Dragonborn pack and they only gave us one...
AoW has over 90% Uptime, Iliyanbruen 25%.
Yes, with 12000 Power a 1350 Power increase doesn't result in a 5% damage increase.
However, AoW also gives you Recovery and more than triple uptime. Therefore it should
be easily superior.
I didn't test the set myself. Can anybody confirm if it works like the tooltip says it says?
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skyvalker64Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 55Arc User
Oh well, I just took the opportunity to bring some differences between this build and hybrid/intimidation because a lot of ppl have been asking me in-game about which one is better, hopefully some players will read about this. He has asked a lot in this guide about PvE I'm surprised that question was related to PvP, there's no point asking about PvP here.
Thank you very much for your clarification!
Hey Laz,
I am not at all interested in PvP and my question wasn't related to PvP. The guy who claimed these things said he did these tests on a "training dummy" (http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?813921-Rise-of-Tiamat-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-35-20141208a-5&p=9720911&viewfull=1#post9720911) so I am not sure why nekro said it was related to PvP. But his point still stands, I think that the 100k value indeed takes into account CaGI damage bonus which is why it crits low in SM case. But, as you have pointed out and I have seen myself during my long gameplay time and tests, Sure Strike deals much more damage in our build instead of any encounter/daily.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
I am not at all interested in PvP and my question wasn't related to PvP. The guy who claimed these things said he did these tests on a "training dummy" (http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?813921-Rise-of-Tiamat-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-35-20141208a-5&p=9720911&viewfull=1#post9720911) so I am not sure why nekro said it was related to PvP. But his point still stands, I think that the 100k value indeed takes into account CaGI damage bonus which is why it crits low in SM case. But, as you have pointed out and I have seen myself during my long gameplay time and tests, Sure Strike deals much more damage in our build instead of any encounter/daily.
Exactly, when we see hit crit for like 500k-600k, means that SS have been doing a lot more of damage, the higher your dmg with your encounter/dailies against a debuffed enemy, higher is the overal dmg done by SS.
I am not at all interested in PvP and my question wasn't related to PvP. The guy who claimed these things said he did these tests on a "training dummy" (http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?813921-Rise-of-Tiamat-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-35-20141208a-5&p=9720911&viewfull=1#post9720911) so I am not sure why nekro said it was related to PvP. But his point still stands, I think that the 100k value indeed takes into account CaGI damage bonus which is why it crits low in SM case. But, as you have pointed out and I have seen myself during my long gameplay time and tests, Sure Strike deals much more damage in our build instead of any encounter/daily.
AoW has over 90% Uptime, Iliyanbruen 25%.
Yes, with 12000 Power a 1350 Power increase doesn't result in a 5% damage increase.
However, AoW also gives you Recovery and more than triple uptime. Therefore it should
be easily superior.
I didn't test the set myself. Can anybody confirm if it works like the tooltip says it says?
I did a few tests with the fabled set for GWF and the results were very disappointing. The uptime I think it's even lower, AoW is almost always on and easy to keep. Definitely, a big NO for the fabled set.
I did a few tests with the fabled set for GWF and the results were very disappointing. The uptime I think it's even lower, AoW is almost always on and easy to keep. Definitely, a big NO for the fabled set.
Tyvm for testing mate very appreciated
Jhoz
Jhozam, DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
I did a few tests with the fabled set for GWF and the results were very disappointing. The uptime I think it's even lower, AoW is almost always on and easy to keep. Definitely, a big NO for the fabled set.
Aww as expected. Long live Avatar of War then
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jhozamMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 44
edited January 2015
After i fast respec for testing a build (Laz knows what i'm saying :P) i'm coming back to full Destroyer.
This time I put off the 5 points from Disciple of War to increase full Deep Gash (almost 1k power less with my equip, i got 11k power now, from 12k) .
What do you think about the swap of Disciple of War with Deep Gash?
Jhoz
Jhozam, DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
hmm i have to say that this build is a rly good one. congrats:
i was wondering why would you pick Dex vs STR till i;ve seen this:
Total damage with CA and CRIT = base damage * (1+ 0.75 + sum of all crit severity bonuses + 0.15 + CHA bonus + CAbonus) * (1+blink dog %) * (1+ intellect devourer %)
So basically all that CAbonus translates into crit severity, if that formula is correct, making crit % the main choice. I do think that some info in the presentation needs an update as CA bonus from companions do behave differently and the base crit severity doesnt explain why you would use the Dex belt vs a STR belt from Kaelac's guide, nor why AoW is such a good pick for pve.
I dont know your stats but is STR*1.3*1.06(feats) = STR*1.378
I am still trying to figure it out how he managed to come to that 0.84 value, but imo the breaking point for crit/str should be higher.
Edit: ok got it, but i dont agree on the math used at the end it just feels wrong to me cause they did ignore the multiplication.
so to recap i have str*1.378 for noncrit (40%) and str*1.06 for crit (60%) so i will get in the end a multiplier for str of 1.1872
Would be very nice if you can explain why dex and not str, i dont rly know what to do with that multiplier of str cause i would go with STR RoI and multiply it with that coefficient then i would look at the breaking point for crit (i could very well be wrong).
here are some numbers from my tests for intimidation:
42 crit% with str belt = 18048,54 avg per hit
47 crit% with dex belt = 17094,73 avg per hit
so for my numbers that 4 STR seems better than 4 DEX plus crit rating
Intellect Devourer is bugged. At least it didn't result in a difference on green/blue/epic quality in my testing.
If you want more STR.
You can go with
STR 20
CON 13
DEX 15
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 10
This is the same 48 Points in primary Ability Scores like Laz's 18STR 12CON 18DEX Roll.
You basically pay 2%Control Bonus and Control Resist from WIS (these stats are quite worthless),
to shift 3 DEX into +1CON and +2 STR. Surely this means you can only stack Armor Penetration
to 1854.
I don't think there are any other viable rolls if you wanna min/max.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
Firstly, things must be clear: My guide is for sustained DPS meaning that you will see a better perfomance in long fights, not for Burst DMG which is better suited for clearing trash and stacking buffs isn't necessary.
As I mentioned at the very beginning of the guide, it is necessary to achieve above 51% crit chance, in this way most of our hits will be crit (taking more benefit of CritSev) instead of white hits (which gain more benefit of STR/Power). Also, if you want to get more benefit of crit means you have to do as many hits as possible, that's what we get spamming Sure Strike, your results using only encounters upgraded with the intimidation feat will show a random % of crit due to a very slow ratio of hits based in the number of encounters/at-wills used, meanwhile, being Destroyer will guarantee at least a 90% uptime in Unstoppable, therefore, a higher number of hits.
For the "HIGH CRIT BUILD" no "Intimidation Build" Dex over STR because I do more crit hits than white hits, I can have at least 65% crit chance always on in every fight with ease, so why would I use STR for a bit more of dmg when 2/3 of my attacks are giving me 172% more dmg? Just think about much STR you need if you want to do the same % of dmg with a lot less crit %.
When I started to use it, it was working fine, that's why I added it to the guide. Recent tests that some people did and afterwards posted in the forum, mentioned that the active bonus isn't working as intended. That's why I don't have it with my SW yet, I will run a couple of tests with my GWF and see finally if the companion is working or not.
Page #21, it was working fine when I posted the guide. If it's not working properly (I need to test it by myself), I will switch it for the Repentant Cultist but I have the worst luck for drops...
those numbers should apply for all at-wills and encounters, that average is done for 100 hits. I am very sure that at your numbers the base power from STR should count more than DEX.
More for the sake of theorycraft, the build being way too powerful for all present pve content and is clearly a polished build with a lot of time and reading done for it.
What i am trying to point out is that in the Power/Crit guide they did count the CA for crit return values, but they didnt count it for the base non crit (main stat and power)so their breaking points are offset and by a large amount.
Update: dex vs str sure strike:
at 43 crit% with 171.8 crit severity and 26 STR , 11k power avg crit: 5184.85, avg noncrit 2310.76 = average dmg 3546.62
at 48 crit% with 171.8 crit severity and 22 STR, 11k power avg crit: 4957.69, avg noncrit 2218.41 = average dmg 3533.26
Acording to Kaelac;s guide and table i should have start investing in STR from 22+ after 53% and for a balance to have 26 str at 57%
And from my tests it seems i have 43% crit 27 STR balance aprox (for any miscalculation pls let me know)
Page #21, it was working fine when I posted the guide. If it's not working properly (I need to test it by myself), I will switch it for the Repentant Cultist but I have the worst luck for drops...
Yeah, I read that post. I've ran test with medium gear and pretty stripped char (no buffs/debuff mechanics) and only Intellect Devourer as active. However, you tested probably geared and with Blink Dog.
The tooltip says for me: "+X% Combat Advantage", but Blink Dog says: "+X% Combat Advantage Damage" maybe thats an error or a different mechanic. That you get "more combat advantage" makes no sense to me what so ever.
Also when I used the german client many tooltips especially on companions were totally wrong! I could name 5 from the head which stated totally different active boni.
Didn't got any Repentant Cultist yet either...
Im totally flabbergasted that the bonus seems so much better than Fire Archon. You found out what the bonus on epic is? 5%?
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
I don't agree with the way your doing your calculations, shouldn't be for a total of 100 hits, it has to be based in duration and hits done during that time, that's how we get DPS. It is not the same 100 hits in 2 minutes using Intimidation than 100 hits in 1:10min using Destroyer. Please, for your tests post: Destroyer-Duration-Number of Hits-Avg dmg and the same for Intimidation. Also, please post with crit chance above the thresold that I mentioned, 51%+ up to 65%. Thank you.
Yeah, I read that post. I've ran test with medium gear and pretty stripped char (no buffs/debuff mechanics) and only Intellect Devourer as active. However, you tested probably geared and with Blink Dog.
The tooltip says for me: "+X% Combat Advantage", but Blink Dog says: "+X% Combat Advantage Damage" maybe thats an error or a different mechanic. That you get "more combat advantage" makes no sense to me what so ever.
Also when I used the german client many tooltips especially on companions were totally wrong! I could name 5 from the head which stated totally different active boni.
Didn't got any Repentant Cultist yet either...
Im totally flabbergasted that the bonus seems so much better than Fire Archon. You found out what the bonus on epic is? 5%?
I do my tests in the same way, char stripped and a weapon with the lowest min/max but ofc it also depends on the test. The fact that it worked or isn't working now is irrelevant. Epic cultist is 5%+1% vs Dragons, so it is about 2.5% up to 3% dmg, it's very nice considering that most companions give us between 1% and 2% dmg.
for SS i;ve used 8 min tests, around 700 hits for each, recorded in act, separated the crit logs and get those average values.
for Intimidation is no need since the base dmg is always the same so only needs 1 crit hit 1 noncrit at various STR/Power levels and the average values comes by itself adding crit%.
I am using an intimidation build and many things are different from your build, but i am using those records to point out that the crit/power guide needs an update cause you;ve used it as a reference and since i find the reference flawed ... i was starting to question if crit has to be that high since you are using a dex belt and not a str belt.
Couldnt help myself and i;ve did the simulation for your build, the numbers are rly rly close with a tiny amount in favor of STR, and if you add more crit severity from buffs things are still in favor of str due to CHA. (my error was that i had made an aproximation of crit rating % from DEX belt and use 5% instead of 4.6% and that put DEX on top for my first pass).
My math gave a multiplier of 2.6224 for DEX belt and a 2.6286 for STR. For full pots i got 3.045 for DEX and 3.056 for STR.
After check it again i;ll make a post with what i did.
Rly nice build anyway.
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skyvalker64Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 55Arc User
edited January 2015
Hey Laz,
I am finally getting close to your build on my GWF, and now I want to change my cheap augment (Allure) to one of the BiS ones, (Black Dragon / might). If I use the black dragon, I will have 3 ring slots. However, I would not be able to equip 3 personalized archmage's rings without wasting the ArP. I estimate around 200 ArP stat to be wasted. But the might stone offers a better option since I can remove all the crit boons and still maintain my rating in the ideal zone if I use belt + 2x rings.
Is there any reason to still go for the black dragon ioun stone instead which I am missing?
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
I am finally getting close to your build on my GWF, and now I want to change my cheap augment (Allure) to one of the BiS ones, (Black Dragon / might). If I use the black dragon, I will have 3 ring slots. However, I would not be able to equip 3 personalized archmage's rings without wasting the ArP. I estimate around 200 ArP stat to be wasted. But the might stone offers a better option since I can remove all the crit boons and still maintain my rating in the ideal zone if I use belt + 2x rings.
Is there any reason to still go for the black dragon ioun stone instead which I am missing?
You can use either Black Dragon or Radiance/Might, any of these options are going to be ok. Black Dragon's active bonus doesn't matter at all, it is useful because we can equip 3 rings and that allow us to modify stats somewhere while keeping the highest possible amount of Power but we can do it too using Radiance/Might, we just need to switch 1 ring for the Personalized Archmage's Belt (250 Pow/250 Crit). I'm using Radiance in my GWF which is almost the same than the Might so use this one, thanks for asking!
skyvalker64Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 55Arc User
edited January 2015
Hey Laz,
Someone gave me an argument in favor of a chicken augment instead. Apparently, it would allow for more power stacking. Any thoughts on this? I did some calculations and it seems to be true assuming that a chicken has 500 power stat.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Someone gave me an argument in favor of a chicken augment instead. Apparently, it would allow for more power stacking. Any thoughts on this? I did some calculations and it seems to be true assuming that a chicken has 500 power stat.
You will have 200 more power . But 200 less crit .
I think this is the best you can have for pvp / pve mix build.
25953 GS
40412 HP
14005 Power (+Corrupted set bonus)
2762 Crit (+800 black dragon stack Destro capstone)
3791 ArPen
1522 Recovery
150 AP Gain
650 CA Damage
0 Control Bonus
2899 Defense
625 Deflect
1415 Reg
1610 Life Steal
250 Incoming Healing
0 Stamina Gain
0 AoE Resist
150 Control Resist
1625 Movement (+Corrupted set bonus)
514 Tenacity
In corrupted BI.
In pve its cool faster stacking Destroyer capstone and DP.
Its all based on Laz's build but i use IV and mark feat.
Also you cant loose agro on boss figth.
In pure pvp:
25337 GS
40082 HP
10856 Power (+Corrupted set bonus)
2048 Crit (+800 black dragon stack Destro capstone)
3291 ArPen
1357 Recovery
150 AP Gain
650 CA Damage
1999 Defense
625 Deflect
1100 Reg
1310 Life Steal
250 Incoming Healing
0 Stamina Gain
0 AoE Resist
150 Control Resist
1625 Movement (+Corrupted set bonus)
514 Tenacity
I find it really funny if i can land at least 1 stun my enemy is dead no matter how much hp he have
If not chiken mod .
I'm curious as to why you would use imperial dragon cloak over cloak of black ice if recovery is basically useless in pve. They have the same active bonus and all their stats/slots are the same except imperial dragon cloak has recovery while cloak of black ice has armor pen.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
Someone gave me an argument in favor of a chicken augment instead. Apparently, it would allow for more power stacking. Any thoughts on this? I did some calculations and it seems to be true assuming that a chicken has 500 power stat.
Let's put into comparison a BDIS vs a Chicken: 3 off slots 3 rings vs 2 def slots + 1 off and 2 rings + 1 neck.
Accesories:
BDIS: 3 Personalized Archmage's Rings: 250 power * 3 = 750 + 3 rad r10 = 900, total: 1650 Power.
Chicken: 2 Personalized Archmage's Rings + 1 Personalized Necklace of Revitalization: 250*2+275= 775 Power + 3 rad r10 = 900, total: 1675 Power.
Runestones:
3 offensive slots (considering P.Bonding 380 Power each one) 1140 Power vs 1 Offensive slot 380 Power.
The BDIS has 209 Power / 209 Crit / 209 ArPen. Chicken only comes with Poultry power that grant us 509 Power.
Total: BDIS 2999 Power // Chicken: 2564 Power.
That's the comparison for other classes, let's add now Steely Defense:
3 defensive slots in each accesory will give 900 def for both companions, that's 180 Power.
0 Defensive slots for the BDIS // Chicken: 2 Defensive slots for a total of 760 Defense, that's 152 Power.
I'm curious as to why you would use imperial dragon cloak over cloak of black ice if recovery is basically useless in pve. They have the same active bonus and all their stats/slots are the same except imperial dragon cloak has recovery while cloak of black ice has armor pen.
Mostly because ArPen above 24% is even more useless, however, I don't agree that Recovery is useless for PvE, higher recharge speed = higher DPS.
It is not like one cloak is better than the other, both are the same, it's about how you distribute your stats. If you want to use the Cloak of Black Ice and you aren't above the 24% RI, then use it.
I'm curious as to why you would use imperial dragon cloak over cloak of black ice if recovery is basically useless in pve. They have the same active bonus and all their stats/slots are the same except imperial dragon cloak has recovery while cloak of black ice has armor pen.
Reason is Recovery is not useless in PvE. GWF using AoW just gets 1350 free Recovery in combat.
I for example have 1800 Recovery and with 1350 from AoW that brings me to 3150 Recovery effectively. https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj
As you can read out thats 22,8% Recharge Speed and Action Point Gain.
AP Gains is wonderful: more Crescendo & Spinning Strike = more Damage
Recharge Speed: Yes, 22,8% Recharge Speed doesn't mean your CDs are 22,8% shorter. However it does make a difference and compared to no Recovery its overwhelming.
Why not Armor Penetration? First of in PvE the highest damage mitigation you will encounter is 24% and that is only so for bosses.
Whats why in PvE you dont want more than 24% Resistance Ignored (thats what Armor Pen gives you in addition with CON).
Laz has a perfect setup to give him 24% and not less and not much more. If he would switch cloacks he would "waste" these 298 Armor Penetration, because everything over 24% does nothing what so ever.. no damage increase - nothing.
Recovery is not that strong on GWF like on CW who 4 Encounters, yet its very good.
Oh did I mention 25% of your Recovery will be granted as bonus Power due to Disciple of War feat?
Right now the new rings that are best in slot, give you 250 Armor Pen. Lets say you got 2 on your char and 2 on your stone.
Along with Dread Ring boon and Artifact Weapon set bonus thats already 1500 Armor Penetration. 14 CON at level 60 is the lowest
you can get, thats 4% Resistance Ignored from CON.
1968 Armor Penetration gives you 20% RI, so only 468 Armor Pen to go. Not much if you think about all the great items that have armor pen. 298 from Dexterity Belt for example. Artifacts have 350. Obviously you can switch the Dread Ring boon, but it is hard to find a good setup to reach and not overkill the 24%.
You can probably find a setup that uses Black Ice Cloak and doesnt overkill 24% Resistance Ignored. However, min-maxing means you compare one option to another. Thats why Imperial Dragon Cloak is superior. It gives you same stats like BI Cloak, but has no backdraw to it, while e.g. Artifact with armorpen might be better for you as GWF than another Artifact that doesnt.
I hope that answered your question and you understood the thought behind it.
Im sure Laz would agree and how I know him he probably will answer you himself, too.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
Chicken: 2 Defensive slots for a total of 760 Defense, that's 152 Power.
Hi Laz, Thanks for doing the full calculation and a quick response, but what if the defense slots are instead slotted with Eldritch runestones rank 10s? In that case wouldn't they give 10% of the companion stat, i.e., (256 + 256) extra power which would then take the chicken's bonus to 3256?
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
Hi Laz, Thanks for doing the full calculation and a quick response, but what if the defense slots are instead slotted with Eldritch runestones rank 10s? In that case wouldn't they give 10% of the companion stat, i.e., (256 + 256) extra power which would then take the chicken's bonus to 3256?
If you prefer to use Eldritch Runestones:
2564 + 256,4 + 256,4 = 3077 Power + 180 (Steely Defense) = 3.257 Total power using a Chicken. So the difference is +78 Power. However, it is necessary to keep in mind that the Chicken only gives you Power while a BDIS comes with 209 Crit + 209 ArPen too.
If we add Disciple of War, we will have 959 ArPen (250*3+209) for a total of 240 Power, the chicken has 600 (500+50+50), that's 150 Power. 240-150 = 90 Power, BDIS is above Chicken now. The point is that the more you can add to your augment stone, more options will be available for your character. Using a chicken means that you will need to fill the missing 350 ArPen in your character, using boons, artifact, etc but using the BDSI you can add something else like Recovery that also gives you Power.
Comments
Thank you very much for your clarification!
what do you think about Fabled Iliyanbruen Set?
AoW grants us 1350 power, but according with http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/342-crit-power-and-dps-the-numbers-guide/?p=1483 after 12k power, 1350 more power seems to be less than 5% final bonus damage (is that right?)
TY
Jhoz
Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
Thank you for such an amazing guide!
Thanks to it I'm always top 3 in damage.
Despite the fact that i lack many things like enchants/runes rank 10, the right companions, the need of a retraining for some feats/boons and of course the infamous legendary rank in artifact equipment.
I will only add your Armor Kits to the guide which i happen to see when you were in game +300power, +5% damage against dragons.
With this playstyle I don't run for my life anymore haha
Great job!
Hey Jhoz,
Both sets should be very similar at that lvl but seems like AoW is still superior not only because it does increase our Power but Recovery as well, using Fabled means we will have a very low rec and that's something that I really don't like, even 1s less in my encounters means a lot. I will do some tests and I'll post my results asap. Thanks a lot for asking.
Hey man, thank you very much! Gear doesn't really matter at all in this guide, it's all about knowing the mechanic and stats in the character, meanwhile you will be upgrading your gear step by step, thanks for letting me know that your having fun using this build.
I would advise +400 power using the reinforcement kits, that +5% dmg against Dragons came with the Dragonborn pack and they only gave us one...
AoW has over 90% Uptime, Iliyanbruen 25%.
Yes, with 12000 Power a 1350 Power increase doesn't result in a 5% damage increase.
However, AoW also gives you Recovery and more than triple uptime. Therefore it should
be easily superior.
I didn't test the set myself. Can anybody confirm if it works like the tooltip says it says?
Hey Laz,
I am not at all interested in PvP and my question wasn't related to PvP. The guy who claimed these things said he did these tests on a "training dummy" (http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?813921-Rise-of-Tiamat-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-35-20141208a-5&p=9720911&viewfull=1#post9720911) so I am not sure why nekro said it was related to PvP. But his point still stands, I think that the 100k value indeed takes into account CaGI damage bonus which is why it crits low in SM case. But, as you have pointed out and I have seen myself during my long gameplay time and tests, Sure Strike deals much more damage in our build instead of any encounter/daily.
Exactly, when we see hit crit for like 500k-600k, means that SS have been doing a lot more of damage, the higher your dmg with your encounter/dailies against a debuffed enemy, higher is the overal dmg done by SS.
my apologies, i thought your question is related to this topic: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?817481-highest-IBS-in-GG-PVP since it was the only one which i noticed with 100k IBS hit..
as i see it will be better in the future link the topic which are we talking about
I did a few tests with the fabled set for GWF and the results were very disappointing. The uptime I think it's even lower, AoW is almost always on and easy to keep. Definitely, a big NO for the fabled set.
Tyvm for testing mate
Jhoz
Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
Aww as expected. Long live Avatar of War then
This time I put off the 5 points from Disciple of War to increase full Deep Gash (almost 1k power less with my equip, i got 11k power now, from 12k) .
What do you think about the swap of Disciple of War with Deep Gash?
Jhoz
Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
i was wondering why would you pick Dex vs STR till i;ve seen this:
Total damage with CA and CRIT = base damage * (1+ 0.75 + sum of all crit severity bonuses + 0.15 + CHA bonus + CAbonus) * (1+blink dog %) * (1+ intellect devourer %)
So basically all that CAbonus translates into crit severity, if that formula is correct, making crit % the main choice. I do think that some info in the presentation needs an update as CA bonus from companions do behave differently and the base crit severity doesnt explain why you would use the Dex belt vs a STR belt from Kaelac's guide, nor why AoW is such a good pick for pve.
Now i need to rethink my build
but if is not a crit we have:
STR * (1+ 0.15) * (1+ CHA bonus%) * (1+ CAbonus %)
I dont know your stats but is STR*1.3*1.06(feats) = STR*1.378
I am still trying to figure it out how he managed to come to that 0.84 value, but imo the breaking point for crit/str should be higher.
Edit: ok got it, but i dont agree on the math used at the end it just feels wrong to me cause they did ignore the multiplication.
so to recap i have str*1.378 for noncrit (40%) and str*1.06 for crit (60%) so i will get in the end a multiplier for str of 1.1872
Would be very nice if you can explain why dex and not str, i dont rly know what to do with that multiplier of str cause i would go with STR RoI and multiply it with that coefficient then i would look at the breaking point for crit (i could very well be wrong).
here are some numbers from my tests for intimidation:
42 crit% with str belt = 18048,54 avg per hit
47 crit% with dex belt = 17094,73 avg per hit
so for my numbers that 4 STR seems better than 4 DEX plus crit rating
If you want more STR.
You can go with
STR 20
CON 13
DEX 15
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 10
This is the same 48 Points in primary Ability Scores like Laz's 18STR 12CON 18DEX Roll.
You basically pay 2%Control Bonus and Control Resist from WIS (these stats are quite worthless),
to shift 3 DEX into +1CON and +2 STR. Surely this means you can only stack Armor Penetration
to 1854.
I don't think there are any other viable rolls if you wanna min/max.
Thanks for your comments.
Firstly, things must be clear: My guide is for sustained DPS meaning that you will see a better perfomance in long fights, not for Burst DMG which is better suited for clearing trash and stacking buffs isn't necessary.
As I mentioned at the very beginning of the guide, it is necessary to achieve above 51% crit chance, in this way most of our hits will be crit (taking more benefit of CritSev) instead of white hits (which gain more benefit of STR/Power). Also, if you want to get more benefit of crit means you have to do as many hits as possible, that's what we get spamming Sure Strike, your results using only encounters upgraded with the intimidation feat will show a random % of crit due to a very slow ratio of hits based in the number of encounters/at-wills used, meanwhile, being Destroyer will guarantee at least a 90% uptime in Unstoppable, therefore, a higher number of hits.
For the "HIGH CRIT BUILD" no "Intimidation Build" Dex over STR because I do more crit hits than white hits, I can have at least 65% crit chance always on in every fight with ease, so why would I use STR for a bit more of dmg when 2/3 of my attacks are giving me 172% more dmg? Just think about much STR you need if you want to do the same % of dmg with a lot less crit %.
Page #21, it was working fine when I posted the guide. If it's not working properly (I need to test it by myself), I will switch it for the Repentant Cultist but I have the worst luck for drops...
More for the sake of theorycraft, the build being way too powerful for all present pve content and is clearly a polished build with a lot of time and reading done for it.
What i am trying to point out is that in the Power/Crit guide they did count the CA for crit return values, but they didnt count it for the base non crit (main stat and power)so their breaking points are offset and by a large amount.
Update: dex vs str sure strike:
at 43 crit% with 171.8 crit severity and 26 STR , 11k power avg crit: 5184.85, avg noncrit 2310.76 = average dmg 3546.62
at 48 crit% with 171.8 crit severity and 22 STR, 11k power avg crit: 4957.69, avg noncrit 2218.41 = average dmg 3533.26
Acording to Kaelac;s guide and table i should have start investing in STR from 22+ after 53% and for a balance to have 26 str at 57%
And from my tests it seems i have 43% crit 27 STR balance aprox (for any miscalculation pls let me know)
Yeah, I read that post. I've ran test with medium gear and pretty stripped char (no buffs/debuff mechanics) and only Intellect Devourer as active. However, you tested probably geared and with Blink Dog.
The tooltip says for me: "+X% Combat Advantage", but Blink Dog says: "+X% Combat Advantage Damage" maybe thats an error or a different mechanic. That you get "more combat advantage" makes no sense to me what so ever.
Also when I used the german client many tooltips especially on companions were totally wrong! I could name 5 from the head which stated totally different active boni.
Didn't got any Repentant Cultist yet either...
Im totally flabbergasted that the bonus seems so much better than Fire Archon. You found out what the bonus on epic is? 5%?
I don't agree with the way your doing your calculations, shouldn't be for a total of 100 hits, it has to be based in duration and hits done during that time, that's how we get DPS. It is not the same 100 hits in 2 minutes using Intimidation than 100 hits in 1:10min using Destroyer. Please, for your tests post: Destroyer-Duration-Number of Hits-Avg dmg and the same for Intimidation. Also, please post with crit chance above the thresold that I mentioned, 51%+ up to 65%. Thank you.
I do my tests in the same way, char stripped and a weapon with the lowest min/max but ofc it also depends on the test. The fact that it worked or isn't working now is irrelevant. Epic cultist is 5%+1% vs Dragons, so it is about 2.5% up to 3% dmg, it's very nice considering that most companions give us between 1% and 2% dmg.
for SS i;ve used 8 min tests, around 700 hits for each, recorded in act, separated the crit logs and get those average values.
for Intimidation is no need since the base dmg is always the same so only needs 1 crit hit 1 noncrit at various STR/Power levels and the average values comes by itself adding crit%.
I am using an intimidation build and many things are different from your build, but i am using those records to point out that the crit/power guide needs an update cause you;ve used it as a reference and since i find the reference flawed ... i was starting to question if crit has to be that high since you are using a dex belt and not a str belt.
Couldnt help myself and i;ve did the simulation for your build, the numbers are rly rly close with a tiny amount in favor of STR, and if you add more crit severity from buffs things are still in favor of str due to CHA. (my error was that i had made an aproximation of crit rating % from DEX belt and use 5% instead of 4.6% and that put DEX on top for my first pass).
My math gave a multiplier of 2.6224 for DEX belt and a 2.6286 for STR. For full pots i got 3.045 for DEX and 3.056 for STR.
After check it again i;ll make a post with what i did.
Rly nice build anyway.
I am finally getting close to your build on my GWF, and now I want to change my cheap augment (Allure) to one of the BiS ones, (Black Dragon / might). If I use the black dragon, I will have 3 ring slots. However, I would not be able to equip 3 personalized archmage's rings without wasting the ArP. I estimate around 200 ArP stat to be wasted. But the might stone offers a better option since I can remove all the crit boons and still maintain my rating in the ideal zone if I use belt + 2x rings.
Is there any reason to still go for the black dragon ioun stone instead which I am missing?
You can use either Black Dragon or Radiance/Might, any of these options are going to be ok. Black Dragon's active bonus doesn't matter at all, it is useful because we can equip 3 rings and that allow us to modify stats somewhere while keeping the highest possible amount of Power but we can do it too using Radiance/Might, we just need to switch 1 ring for the Personalized Archmage's Belt (250 Pow/250 Crit). I'm using Radiance in my GWF which is almost the same than the Might so use this one, thanks for asking!
Someone gave me an argument in favor of a chicken augment instead. Apparently, it would allow for more power stacking. Any thoughts on this? I did some calculations and it seems to be true assuming that a chicken has 500 power stat.
You will have 200 more power . But 200 less crit .
I think this is the best you can have for pvp / pve mix build.
25953 GS
40412 HP
14005 Power (+Corrupted set bonus)
2762 Crit (+800 black dragon stack Destro capstone)
3791 ArPen
1522 Recovery
150 AP Gain
650 CA Damage
0 Control Bonus
2899 Defense
625 Deflect
1415 Reg
1610 Life Steal
250 Incoming Healing
0 Stamina Gain
0 AoE Resist
150 Control Resist
1625 Movement (+Corrupted set bonus)
514 Tenacity
In corrupted BI.
In pve its cool faster stacking Destroyer capstone and DP.
Its all based on Laz's build but i use IV and mark feat.
Also you cant loose agro on boss figth.
In pure pvp:
25337 GS
40082 HP
10856 Power (+Corrupted set bonus)
2048 Crit (+800 black dragon stack Destro capstone)
3291 ArPen
1357 Recovery
150 AP Gain
650 CA Damage
1999 Defense
625 Deflect
1100 Reg
1310 Life Steal
250 Incoming Healing
0 Stamina Gain
0 AoE Resist
150 Control Resist
1625 Movement (+Corrupted set bonus)
514 Tenacity
I find it really funny if i can land at least 1 stun my enemy is dead no matter how much hp he have
If not
Let's put into comparison a BDIS vs a Chicken: 3 off slots 3 rings vs 2 def slots + 1 off and 2 rings + 1 neck.
Accesories:
BDIS: 3 Personalized Archmage's Rings: 250 power * 3 = 750 + 3 rad r10 = 900, total: 1650 Power.
Chicken: 2 Personalized Archmage's Rings + 1 Personalized Necklace of Revitalization: 250*2+275= 775 Power + 3 rad r10 = 900, total: 1675 Power.
Runestones:
3 offensive slots (considering P.Bonding 380 Power each one) 1140 Power vs 1 Offensive slot 380 Power.
The BDIS has 209 Power / 209 Crit / 209 ArPen. Chicken only comes with Poultry power that grant us 509 Power.
Total: BDIS 2999 Power // Chicken: 2564 Power.
That's the comparison for other classes, let's add now Steely Defense:
3 defensive slots in each accesory will give 900 def for both companions, that's 180 Power.
0 Defensive slots for the BDIS // Chicken: 2 Defensive slots for a total of 760 Defense, that's 152 Power.
Total: BDIS 3179 Power // Chicken: 2896 Power.
Mostly because ArPen above 24% is even more useless, however, I don't agree that Recovery is useless for PvE, higher recharge speed = higher DPS.
It is not like one cloak is better than the other, both are the same, it's about how you distribute your stats. If you want to use the Cloak of Black Ice and you aren't above the 24% RI, then use it.
Reason is Recovery is not useless in PvE. GWF using AoW just gets 1350 free Recovery in combat.
I for example have 1800 Recovery and with 1350 from AoW that brings me to 3150 Recovery effectively.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj
As you can read out thats 22,8% Recharge Speed and Action Point Gain.
AP Gains is wonderful: more Crescendo & Spinning Strike = more Damage
Recharge Speed: Yes, 22,8% Recharge Speed doesn't mean your CDs are 22,8% shorter. However it does make a difference and compared to no Recovery its overwhelming.
Why not Armor Penetration? First of in PvE the highest damage mitigation you will encounter is 24% and that is only so for bosses.
Whats why in PvE you dont want more than 24% Resistance Ignored (thats what Armor Pen gives you in addition with CON).
Laz has a perfect setup to give him 24% and not less and not much more. If he would switch cloacks he would "waste" these 298 Armor Penetration, because everything over 24% does nothing what so ever.. no damage increase - nothing.
Recovery is not that strong on GWF like on CW who 4 Encounters, yet its very good.
Oh did I mention 25% of your Recovery will be granted as bonus Power due to Disciple of War feat?
Right now the new rings that are best in slot, give you 250 Armor Pen. Lets say you got 2 on your char and 2 on your stone.
Along with Dread Ring boon and Artifact Weapon set bonus thats already 1500 Armor Penetration. 14 CON at level 60 is the lowest
you can get, thats 4% Resistance Ignored from CON.
1968 Armor Penetration gives you 20% RI, so only 468 Armor Pen to go. Not much if you think about all the great items that have armor pen. 298 from Dexterity Belt for example. Artifacts have 350. Obviously you can switch the Dread Ring boon, but it is hard to find a good setup to reach and not overkill the 24%.
You can probably find a setup that uses Black Ice Cloak and doesnt overkill 24% Resistance Ignored. However, min-maxing means you compare one option to another. Thats why Imperial Dragon Cloak is superior. It gives you same stats like BI Cloak, but has no backdraw to it, while e.g. Artifact with armorpen might be better for you as GWF than another Artifact that doesnt.
I hope that answered your question and you understood the thought behind it.
Im sure Laz would agree and how I know him he probably will answer you himself, too.
Of course, I do agree and even though I already posted an answer with an extremely simplified version, yours is much more useful, thank you!
Hi Laz, Thanks for doing the full calculation and a quick response, but what if the defense slots are instead slotted with Eldritch runestones rank 10s? In that case wouldn't they give 10% of the companion stat, i.e., (256 + 256) extra power which would then take the chicken's bonus to 3256?
If you prefer to use Eldritch Runestones:
2564 + 256,4 + 256,4 = 3077 Power + 180 (Steely Defense) = 3.257 Total power using a Chicken. So the difference is +78 Power. However, it is necessary to keep in mind that the Chicken only gives you Power while a BDIS comes with 209 Crit + 209 ArPen too.
If we add Disciple of War, we will have 959 ArPen (250*3+209) for a total of 240 Power, the chicken has 600 (500+50+50), that's 150 Power. 240-150 = 90 Power, BDIS is above Chicken now. The point is that the more you can add to your augment stone, more options will be available for your character. Using a chicken means that you will need to fill the missing 350 ArPen in your character, using boons, artifact, etc but using the BDSI you can add something else like Recovery that also gives you Power.